Charles, my router is router only unit, and yes, close to audio system. My ISP service comes into my dedicated listening room, however, at opposite end of system, originally had modem and router at that end of room with 25' cheaper ethernet cable running to streamer. I then moved both modem and router to system side of room via extending coax cable, also moved to higher quality ethernet with these much shorter runs, result was pretty substantial improvement.
So, the one thing that has always bothered me about this setup is having that wifi contaminate network, both internally created and airborne rfi. I have Trifield meter and the amount of rfi emanating from these routers is extreme. Thus move to get that rfi away from system.
Also, as part of my experimentation of ethernet vs optical, prefer ethernet feeding streamers vs optical, although the one time I did try optical here it was not optimized, therefore, generic FMC both powered by lps, two OpticalModules may have tipped scales in other direction. I did hear slight thinning out or analytical presentation with optical vs ethernet here. Have always preferred optical POST streamer.
I presume preferences of ethernet vs optical are extremely system dependent, I hear no inherent defect in either of these modes. Preference depends on your system and how mode is implemented. Experiments will continue down the road, optimization of optical POST server will have been accomplished soon, will then work on ethernet optimization via JCAT usb xe card in new streamer, all Sonore removed from system.
Also, experiment with second router vs adding audiophile switch, previous experiment found router powered by lps vs adding audiophile switch to router was inferior to router alone. I've always maintained two ethernet ports on every streamer I've owned in recent years, two ethernet ports means switch unneeded. Adding switches only adds more complexity to my setups, and adding switches doesn't get rid of router in vast majority of networks in any case. Virtually every network is using router, and router with wifi if one has need of wifi in home, result is network is contaminated with tons of rfi and if not using lps on router, noise injection. Switches are acting as virtual filters in this case, and efficacy of various ethernet filters is evidence switches aren't doing complete job. I like the idea of the ethernet filter, I use my own with JCAT Net card XE, very effective. Anyway, my take at this point, add the second improved router with lower jitter feed second router with wifi isolated to that router. Wfii contamination injected into audio system network gone, no need to add switch in my particular case. This setup both simplifies and cleans up my audio network feed.
Another interesting concept I've thought about. Some ISP offer more than one IP address for a single service line, if one had modem with multiple ethernet ports and one IP address per port I've thought it possible to eliminate the router or switch altogether, assuming those separate IP addresses could communicate with each other. Not sure this possible? Another route would be second ISP service one dedicated to audio system, other for rest of house with wifi. Present experiment is to hear efficacy of removing wifi contamination from audio system.
Managed enterprise level router is another route to ridding oneself of wifi contamination, I have one, steep learning curve, almost had it setup when distracted by other audio things, may get back to this at some point. These types of routers act as routers vs switches, therefore, can assign IP addresses to other network components, yet have no wifi, through a multitude of settings one can use separate, isolated router to provide wifi for rest of home. Whatbestforum has thread in which UbiquityEdgeRouter being used in this manner, daisy chaining various filters is also mentioned in this thread! The complexity some undertake is never ending!
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Caught my miss. What I meant to say, long coax to modem, short ethernet to router, this versus long ethernet to router. Bottom line bring modem to router, even to point of having ISP coming into listening room, this is my setup.
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@jerryg123 At some point need to try the Sonore products, your streaming setup should provide the necessary resolution/transparency to hear improvements vs generic. I did use generic for couple years with no complaints, it is effective and certainly huge value for what it does. The Sonore is worthwhile upgrade, as it should be for the price increase vs generic.
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Optical comes in number of flavors, hearing one or two implementations may not tell the whole story. I've had generic with smps, generic with one lps, generic with two lps, OpticalRendu with generic, OpticalRendu with OpticalModule. I've also used optical both pre and post server or streamer, optical with both switch plus router or router alone. Finally, tried various power cords and lps with the above.
I have Finisar industrial grade optical transceivers coming in Friday along with a custom build optical cable (lowered reflectivity) from AfterDark. These transceivers have lowered jitter vs all other transceivers. So I shall soon have the chance to hear most optimized optical I'm aware of sometime in coming week.
Also further experiments coming via upgraded ISP speed, 600mbps vs 300, already ordered. This along with even better Netgear router, with lower ping time and much better latency, meaning lower jitter than present Netgear. The new Netgear will also have all wifi turned off, assigned IP address to present Netgear which will then provide wifi for everything with exception of streaming chain and NAS. Wifi nasties, meaning RFI will then be segregated and much further away from my audio system.
Only variable at a time with above so this will take a bit of time to evaluate.
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More thoughts in regard to complexity of streaming systems. Streaming is likely the most inherently complex source we have, even vinyl pales somewhat in comparison. We necessarily have to deal with networks, this means ISP, modems, routers, cabling, perhaps switches. Then we need means to deliver music, this requires music player software and server to utilize that software. Next is means of delivering this information to dac which is the rendering function. Finally we have dac to deliver these bits to our system.
So we have this inherent complexity to which we can add all manner of optimizations to each of these functions. Cabling, filtering, lps, power cords, power conditioning, ethernet vs optical, choice of OS, motherboards, music player software, RAM, NAS, local drives, etc. ad nauseam. I could go on and on, suffice to say one can really go into weeds, check out whatsbestforum, audiophilestyle forums to get an idea of how far some have gone. My own experience has been that optimization of every link in chain can pay off in improved sound quality. The key is discovering how to implement these optimizations, some of my changes have been retrograde, most have been incrementally positive. As for the incrementally positive, one must always ask themselves could I do better? In some cases I have improved things by further optimizing what I already thought fully optimized.
This optimization of the already optimized is where I find myself at this point in my streaming experiments. In exploration of more network optimizations, I changed out my ISP plan from 300mbps to 500, real world performance went from 330mbps download, 11.5 upload to 548 dowload, 21.5 upload. As part of this upgrade modem was necessarily changed from Netgear CM500 to Technicolor 1GB capable modem. Both run off same 12V LPS into BPT 3.5 Signature modified power conditioner, both utilize Broadcom chipset vs inferior Intel Puma, Technicolor runs DOCSIS 3.1 vs 3.0. Changing service and modem has resulted in further lowering of noise floor, something I would not have believed possible to further improve prior. While incremental, this has been meaningful improvement, well worth the extra $20 per month charge vs prior service.
So in regard to streaming complexity, optimization and further optimization of each and every function in streaming system, its been proven once again how every single little thing can affect the entire system. For those willing to go down path of extracting max potential from their streaming source I recommend paying great attention to ISP quality, modem and routers. Research latency/jitter and noise propagation of these devices, not all created equal. Use lps, power conditioning with these devices as well. Further possible improvements may be possible with higher quality lps and power cords to modem, already have done this with router.
For those skeptical about modem and router optimization, I can only suggest one experiment here, assuming one's system has necessary resolving/transparency, improvements should be easily heard. Based on idea all links in chain important, first links need to be optimized in order to hear optimizations further down chain. Perhaps some of these filters we use would become unnecessary with more fundamental optimizations?
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Charles, my Technicolor model # is E31T2ul. My ISP is Spectrum, have up to 1gbps service available. Anyone can check on their modem quality via various modem rating services on web,
Getting modem and router close to system was impressive upgrade for me, makes much better cabling affordable and allows lps to be connected to power conditioning on dedicated AC. I also tried powering modem and router with lps to lithium ion battery pack, nice way to go if can't power with system power conditioner. Also, experimented with better power cords to these conditioners, smaller incremental improvements here, lps is the important thing.
While modem and router quality hasn't been a concern for audiophile streamers up to recent times, it has long been of concern to enterprise scale users, some of these users such as precision engineering and measurement devices rely on maximally jitter and noise free networks.
Installed my Netgear XR1000 today, much versatility with this router. Can monitor ping time, jitter, While doubtful I can change Spectrum server feeding my network still interesting to monitor this, may be able to play with various settings to improve, initially I'm getting A+ and A ratings for ping, this great for lowest jitter, only B for speed, likely need 1gbps for A+ rating. Quality of service (QOS) has great configuratively, vast majority of band width being allocated to streamer and/or NAS, can leave relatively little for general service computers and other devices since upgrading service to 500mbps. With 1gb I could allocate even larger percentage and still maintain decent speed with the other devices. I'm also turning off wifi either permanently or minimally when running audio system streaming. I can either hard wire every wifi device in house off second router or use wifi capabilities of the second router. Issue here is not sure second router can be run in wifi mode when connected to primary router with wifi turned off, second router may not see wireless devices on network in this mode. I should get to bottom of this in next day or two. Running router with wifi turned off somewhat replicates a switch but with IP addressing abilitiy. One thing missing is the nice clocks the best audiophile switches have, self generated noise should be greatly diminished via lps power and wifi turned off. A switch is superfluous with my JCAT net card with it's two ethernet ports in any case, this card provides the high quality clocking a switch would provide.
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For everyone, getting rid of wifi, going to hard wired is great upgrade for many reasons given here and elsewhere. But instead of using long ethernet cable from modem, use long coax, coax much less susceptible to emi/rfi. The filters work in part because rifi leakage into our ethernet cables. Hopefully Rich Truss will see this and speak to this leakage issue.
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Combo modem/router may or may not be best, who can say without direct comparison. I'd still advocate individuals at least try modem and router close to audio system, hard wired with quality ethernet cable. Compare the two and report. While I've not done wifi to ethernet comparison in years, the modem and router close to system paid off big time, one of the biggest improvements for network, and I've conducted a ton of network experiments. Long ethernet cables not the way to go, long coax, short ethernet best, other advantage is higher quality ethernet cable becomes more affordable.
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@charles1dad Other than listening comparisons, which I've obviously done, here are the issues at hand.
Coax has less signal loss over longer distances vs ethernet. Coax more resistant to emi/rfi intrusion. Plus you get advantage of using top flight ethernet cable for entire network, I'd never spend the kind of money 50', 25', whatever long lengths of Audioquest Vodka would cost, price this length of the Vodka and see!
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@lalitk Perhaps I'm not finding exact product you're pointing to, but all I can find on Linkup is ethernet cables. They may call them LAN cables, LAN cables are in actual fact eithernet cables, theirs are shielded which is simply CAT 7 and CAT 8 ethernet cables. Certainly the cables themselves are immune to RFI, issue is connectors is how rfi enters, rfi rides the gound on these cables to next component in chain. Coax eliminates this. Please inform me to actual product in case I'm not looking in correct place.
Now, if this LAN cable is indeed actual cat 7 or 8 ethernet the issue of getting wifi to rest of house solved by connecting second router to primary router, primary router located in listening room, secondary router located wherever in house connected by cheapo etherenet/LAN cable, this supplies wifi to rest of house.
With setup I'm speaking of, you not only have the short runs of LAN/ethernet cables, but you're also entirely isolating audio network from wifi and rfi contamination.
Again, please inform me if LINkup has some new fangled cable I'm not aware of, if this true could be nice alternative.
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One can get fine sound quality with top line streamers and dacs, this even with less than optimal networks. This based on latik and many other's experience, mine as well. We are talking marginal gains with most of these 'in the weeds' network optimizations, these are the sort of things you do when main components in streaming chain taken care of. So what you have is the usual thing when adding several marginal gains together, that being very meaningful improvements at highest levels of resolution/transparency.
And there is in fact and will probably always be multiple paths towards network optimization. I don't doubt for a second the benefits of products like Telegartner switch, Network Acoustics Muon. There is no doubt I'd be using one or both if having gone in different direction with my streamer. Eliminating noise on network pays off handsomely, based on reports from respected individuals both are excellent devices and deserving of placement in best audio systems. See, we can agree!
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Obviously the same number of LAN/ethernet cables so possibility of rfi entry through connectors exactly the same. The differences are more signal loss with long runs of ethernet vs coax, also best quality LAN/ethernet cable becomes affordable with close to system placement. Now if one doesn't believe ethernet cables sound different that doesn't matter. I and many others hear differences in ethernet cables so it matters to us.
Now I can see a possible competitor to close modem/router setup in going to optical conversion close to modem/router, long optical better than long ethernet. This issue then becomes all the peripherals, therefore, lps, power cables, power conditioning used with modem/router. I've found quality of AC/DC cables, LPS, and power conditioning to affect sound quality. With close to audio system setup I can use my already installed dedicated power lines, power conditioner, also running network components on separate AC lines may promote noise from ground loops, generally we want all components in audio system to be on same circuit, less noise with grounding potential differences. I've tried modems/routers and/or LPS on different AC lines, diminished sound quality, although this could have been attributed to other variables.
Nope close modem/router is best and not that costly to implement. Two options here, DIY or technician runs long coax to listening room or have ISP entry to listening room. In either case wifi can be run from second router connected to unmanaged or managed router, that router can be placed in best location for whole house wifi, this means no wifi/rfi noise on audio system network. So add up advantages, shorter higher quality LAN cables, less signal loss LAN vs Coax, ability to use same AC circuit for network, no chance for AC ground loops, finally best quality power conditioning via audio system PC.
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I agree simple MAY be best, all depends on implementation. If one doesn't have good filtering, clocks, PS on essential network components, these will have to be supplied via add ons.
Here is example of simple and optimized network. Modem with internal lps> router with attention paid to noise suppression and OXCO clock> streamer with built in NET filter and optimal rendering via any optimized port>dac. Optimal streamer network via three boxes! Expect long time or never for this fantasy modem, still waiting for this router, already have the net filters within streamers solved.
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