Needing DAC Advice

I'm also a long time (I'm old) pro musician/sound engineer/ne'er do well and I've always been surprised that people prefer the lower gain Freya preamp settings (that admittedly do sound excellent).  I have the original version Freya (bought new) and found that tube rolling was important to really get the tube stage right, and after trying various 6SN7GTBs, NOS GEs do the trick for me. That's all it took to really elevate the thing and the other outputs seem to pale in comparison to the tubes...I use the non tube outputs simply to make sure the tubes are staying honest. I switch amps from time to time between a Pass XA-25 and a tube Dennis Had Firebottle SEP HO (high output...heh heh) and with either amp the tubes sound best. Note the earlier Freya keeps the tubes on all the time making instant comparisons between outputs possible.

As I continued to research and ponder whether to re-dac or not, I made another change to this system that produced rather unexpected but very welcome results. I came across another Pass X150 at an attractive price and, well, you can never have too many good amps, right? So I picked it up.

Having two identical stereo amps now I decided to try vertically bi-amping the SL3s (does that make the amps 'stereoblocks'?). Stunning difference. I'm not kidding. More of everything, top to bottom, left to right, in and out. Unbelievable depth, immediacy, clarity, all the buzzwords apply. I had to basically remove the subs from the system (they make good plant stands though so still in the room.) The music sounds 'live'. Instruments sounds like real live instruments being played in the room. And I no longer 'hear' the dac.

As an engineer, I struggle to explain this dramatic change. Yes, speaker cable length went from 2m to a .5m, 2X. Sure, channel separation might improve (maybe). Of course, power available doubled from 300W@4ohms to 600w but it's not like 300w shouldn't be sufficient to drive these speakers at reasonable levels. (ML recommended power is 20-400w and a nominal impedance of 4ohms, 86db eff.)

As a musician, I just revel in the sound.

When you say 'Im not a believer in cable magic', I look at cables as another piece of equipment. not unlike a new amp or transport, none of which are magical, they simply add a new character to the sound, preferably a better sound, or swap it out for another, when going down the long road of being a audiophile, 

Im guessing another phase for magic, could be a bigger well defined soundstage,  holography, three dimensional. has soul, whatever vernacular you wish to apply, cables, like tubes, can add a greater since of the above and are analogs to any other piece of equipment in your system that makes a difference, nothing necessarily magic about any single piece of equipment, cumulatively this is where you find the alluring and addictive synergy.

As it has been stated many times, when getting 'new' equipment, all of us think we have made a mistake, sounds flat, dull, until we take the time needed to break-in the piece of equipment, parenthetically cables are especially sensitive to this break-in period

Even when knowing this break-in period is required, still painful process, I just bought a new DAC from Weiss audio, talked with Daniel Weiss about this break-in period, he told me only takes 24 hours, he was just about spot on, I had to be patient, I recall my NBS black label cables took over 100 hours of break-in, not fun when paying these high prices, thinking that it was a mistake, up until the 'wizardry' starts to happen

 

 

@classicrockfan "you don't want to spend more than 1k for a Chinese DAC. These Chinese DACs outperform most US/European made units that cost 10x more. “ my last Gustard DAC is A22, which is an excellent implementation of Akamai Tech. DAC chip design! excellent quality/performance PCB, components etc.. why price downgrade?

But it is not...engaging? No soul?

This is tough to nail down as it’s highly subjective on where to stop relative to affordability.

@trn - as you’ve discovered, it’s the whole audio chain that matters.  A better preamp and/or amp might move you in the right direction.  Lower costs DACs may measure well and give excellent detail, but iirc it’s the analog output design that’s key to better engagement.

Here’s a list of notable positive reviewed DACs:

• 2.3 Doge 7 MkII tube DAC              
• 2.6 Ferrum Wandla - HR competes w 10k DACs  +1.2 HYPSOS power supply 
• 2.7 LAiV Harmony DAC
• 3.0 Musician Aquarius - sounds like a $5k DAC
• 4.3 Denafrips Terminator  [BNC in                                                                               
• 4.0 Linear Tube Audio Aero DAC
• 4.5 Wired4Sound DAC-2v2SE                    
• 5.0 Audio-GD R7HE MK2                               
• 5.6 Kitsune Hifi May-KTE.                           
• 6.6 Lampizator Baltic 4 (punches way above price point- beats KTE).                  
• 6.8 Bel Canto Ex1 DAC (Transparent)                    
• 7.1 T+A DAC200

@jk_richards Are you working on mods for the MK2.  It seems like it would be a good thing as long as the mods didn't interfere with the software upgrades but if you strictly upgraded hardware I don't see how it would affect it. 

(Took the week off to do a little skiing...)

Thanks for all the input, much appreciated. To update, I just replaced the preamp-amp interconnects from Signal Silver Resolution to Mogami 2549 Y cables, added a second Pass X150 amp, and vertically bi-amped the SL3's with Canare 4S11 (from Analysis Plus Ovals).

I apologize for the scientific methodological faux pas of changing more than one variable at a time but I'm too old to crawl around making connections multiple times. I'd been planning for this change long before I started questioning the Benchmark DAC.

Result? More. Of everything. Full spectrum improvement and way smoother, very musical. Bass and mid-bass are amazing (I need to dial in my subs: they're too much now), sounds like the bass player is set up in a corner of the room. Highs are maybe a tad rolled off but all there (or maybe just shaded by the fullness in the mids - I need to listen to this for awhile to decide). Not to exaggerate, but the system sounds fundamentally, profoundly different. The Mrs noticed; she's a music lover but not a critical listener. 

This is still with the Freya in passive mode. So the only changes were to add more power (bi-amping) and changing speaker cables and interconnects. I'm not a believer in cable magic so I'm hesitant to give those changes much credit. Which I guess means the extra headroom is the difference maker. 

Bottom line, I don't have a problem with the Benchmark DAC, at the moment. (I was really leaning toward trying an R2R or one of Schiit''s DACs (reasoning that there has to be some synergies between the Urd cdt and their DACs - as an engineer, that's the way I'd do it.) But now I don't notice the DAC and I'm pretty sure I did before.

I'll spend some time with the system like this. Then maybe I'll do as others have suggested and try the preamp modes I have.

 

@torontodt 

Agree. The PS Direcstream Mk I and Mk II in stock form do need more detail and better imaging performance.  With the proper mods and custom nickel audio transformers it's a different game. The SDM is programed in the FPGA. No off the shelf DAC chips are used. These DAC's convert all incoming signals to 10x DSD then to DSD256 for the bitslinger to pass to the audio transformers via 8 high speed opamps.

I think I'm alergic to ESS Sabre dacs.

Tried reviewed and recommended ESS dacs like Yulong, Nuprime, SimAudio, Auralic Vega and others and while I tried to like them, none sounded very musical to me.

My Hegel HD30 Dac on the other hand had an AKM "Velvet Sound" DS chip and it sounded very good.

Had PS Direcstream Mk I and Mk II Dacs and they sounded ok but their FPGA designs seemed to leave detail on the table when I compared it to the Vega G2 which was highly detailed.

Finally found the Holo May (R2R) dac and it seems to have great detail while preserving musicality across the board. Just seems effortless and stays out of the way. I'll note that this dac has a very good class A output stage.

So, some dac architectures/implementations simply may not work for your ears. Luckily, the used market is quite good right now - have fun!

I pair my modified Directstream DAC with an Audio Research Ref 6SE pre. 

The quality of the SDM and a very low jitter clock is just as important as the output stage. I use a Denafrips Hermes DDC to connect the DAC to our streamer.  Best I have ever heard from all DAC's we compared it to.  Very realistic and dynamic.

Feels like I need to repeat my self,  but the output stage is way more important than the converting bit in a dac .

I also would recommend you to try a really good preamp .

Something like EAR 912 , Audio Research ref 6 or alike .

1. SMSL SU-X  2. Gustard A26 made in China you don't want to spend more than 1k for a Chinese DAC. These Chinese DACs outperform most US/European made units that cost 10x more. 

Hard to know what you mean by 'no soul' I suspect that is different for many individuals, by no soul, does that suggest a since of 2 dimensions, or lack of med-range impact, or less encompassing mid to lower base?

Best to start with your weak points in the system, I found in my system, the weak points were initially in my cables, power, interconnects and speakers cables, over time I replaced all of them.

As you mentioned, its a rabbit hole for sure, once I found that solved one problem, I went to better speakers, then a better pre-amp,  and finally a better dac (only due to my theta dac had failed) 

One of the biggest differences, and most expensive equipment changes were the cables, at least they dont really wear out, once you make the investment, unlike other electronic equipment

I went to NBS black label from transparent cables, ultimately that gave me the start to holography and separation I was looking for, after witch I added a better speaker, German Physiks system from Thiel CS5's, followed by better preamp and amp, from krell integrated to Einstein tube pre-amp and Halcro mono amps

Every step made a difference, because I was replacing a weak point with something better, in other words, the rabbit hole

Finally replaced my burned out theta dac with a Weiss 501 DAC, the Weiss may be a bit better that the theta, newer tech, I have a soft spot for theta, it ultimately about synergy, however it all started with the cable system, once that was set I could hear the differences in further additions, good or not so good, and make a informed decision on upgrading older equipment

 

 

 

I have been through a dozen or so DACs spanning ESS, AKM, FPGA, R2R and am currently enjoying a Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 2, it is an older model but can be had used ~$2K and at that price it is an incredible value, detailed but no glare, non-fatiguing, very balanced presentation. No USB input though so I am running an Aurender N200 USB --> Denafrips Gaia AES --> Berkeley Alpha.

I will be honest the TERMINATOR is something to behold and out of everything you listed you liked my top choice is also the terminator 2 but you should give a listen if you can to musical paradise mk2.  Sounds crazy I know next to all of these other higher end dacs but it just might win you over.

   I am totally in love with my MUSICAL PARADISE mk2 DAC at 1000 bucks its absolutely amazing and better I believe or equal to a Pontus R2R if you get one of these and hot rod it out with say siemens CCA grey plate and new caps.  I mean it's not a Bricasti which I have heard and are very amazing.  Very detailed.  but you get like a border patrol or a musical paradise mk2 and it has a special allure especially for vocals like EVA Cassidy and Nora Jones type stuff that will blow everything else out of the water.  Its more lush and rich sounding.  And it has more weight not as thin.

Don't leave out the modified Directstream MK1

We and other audiophiles compared it to many high end DAC’s and even a duplicate of the same in order to make it even better. We purchased and sold many DAC’s in the process. Started with the Denifrips Pontus (sold), Terminator Plus 12th (sold) Holo May level 3 (sold) and many others. Just finished with the dCS Bartok Apex ring DAC (sold).

 

I'll be upgrading my DAC later this year, and at the top of the list will be the new Denafrips Terminator 15th.  Audioman58 is the distributor, and sells them here on Agon.

I very much liked the Holo Audio May DAC KTE, but the Terminator II (older model) beat it out.

I'll also look at T+A 200, Lampizator, Berkeley, MSB.....but based on my experience with Denafrips DACs, it may be hard to keep me from the Terminator

With regard to your statement that there are “too many places for signal compromise in the streaming chain”, I have found the opposite to be true if using a current dedicated streamer/server.  Current streamers have sophisticated clocks to assure timing accuracy prior to data transfer to the DAC which again times the data before conversion reducing timing distortion.  Many use a cache to assure the data is complete and the computer in the server performs data checks before transfer to the DAC.  Modern streamers are well shielded and have sophisticated power supplies.  There are no mechanical vibrations and noise generators as in cd transports.  There is no concern with laser usable life and the fact that replacements for many models are out of production.  I believe you will get more “soul” using a good modern streamer.  Look at Aurender (my fav), Lumin, and  Grimm, 

I agree with protest position with regard to artist compensation by streaming services.  However consider the following.  The supply and demand  model has changed in favor of streaming over physical media. The record label or publisher is compensated by the streaming service, not the artist, directly or through collection societies.  Therefore, the label is as much to blame.  The compensation algorithm favors popular artists over new artists because it is based on the number of plays.  However, new artists benefit from being noticed on streaming services.  I weekly look for content.  Therefore, the compensation model is flawed and needs revision.   

Those old martin logan SL3 most likely lost some of the high frequency they were capable of reproducing during their younger years, unless you vacuumed them on a regular basis and gave the panels a nice bath once a year. Those panels have a life span you know. May be together with the new dac swap the panels. Or better yet upgrade the speakers. Get that soul back. 

I had 4 dacs at one point of varying “levels”. The Topping dl90, Cambridge modified by ModWright with tubes, Audio Note and Rockna Wavedream. The Rockna was a game changer for me. Was better in every regard compared to the others and really woke up the system. All the others lacked soul I suppose. The Rockna was immediate and awesome in every aspect. I was also recommended the Bricasti from who sold me the Rockna. Both are apparently very good. Good luck

@sls883 - It can, but it is always possible to build R2R better than chip. With chip one is limited to manufacturer specs and analog filters must be appropriate to the chip. Limited freedom.

@mikhailark That's great, but you aren't going to convince me that an excellent dac cannot be built around ESS chips.  

@sls883 - R2R DAC requires high quality precise components. Thus $1600 won't cut it and chip will do it better. But you won't find ESS in dCS gear.

I strongly recommend the Mola Mola Tambaqui.  The better the system, the more you hear the ability this DAC possesses. Pair it with an Auralic streamer and you've got an unbeatable combo.

Not a DAC recommendation but since you mention you like the idea of less is more, straight wire concept, have you considered an LDR passive preamp?  I have one from stereo coffee that I use with my Pass XA30.5 and I love it.  I was previously using an LTA MZ2 and sometimes a bottlehead Moreplay as a preamp and they had some things that I loved but the transparency, soundstage and channel separation in the LDR preamp is sooo good it's not worth giving up for the bit of tube magic that the others provide.  Great at all volumes too.  I notice dynamics are just as impactful no matter what my listening level.

@jsalerno277  I went from a $1,650 r2r dac to a $3,000 chip dac.  Same brand, so it's not really a fair comparison of r2r versus chip dac.  I was worried about losing the favorable qualities of the r2r dac, but that wasn't the case at all.  I much prefer the chip dac.  

I will first attempt to define “soul” so we can calibrate expectations on SQ with each other.  To me “soul” or the ability to reproduce the emotion of the performer(s) and the composition on recorded music has a number of factors I will attempt to describe.  
1:   Lack of Artifacts:   Reproduction without artifacts, whether digital glare or vinyl grove noise, timing variations, etc. is critical.  Having a source component that reduces these artifacts is critical to “soul”.  When you audition equipment you are considering, listen to the timbre or acoustic instruments and to the background between notes.  The former shound sound correct to your ears.  The latter should sound as “black” as possible.  

2:  Image Density:   Personally, this is an attribute I consider very critical.  For music to have “soul” it is necessary for the images to have a dense, organic presence.  Some source equipment will image well with good sound stage width and depth, but the image density will be light.  When auditioning equipment use a well recorded vocal pop or jazz album and compare the image density.  For example, a Stockfish recording of Sara K or Katja Werka, Dream with Dean, Dire Straits Fade to Black, or Billie Eilish Not My Responsibility.

3:  Detail Retrieval:  Reproduction of “soul” requires the source component to be able to reproduce detail to the level that it reproduces second harmonic decays of instruments and hall ambiance.  This is critical for a source component to not sound “sterile”.  On any of the recordings mentioned in #2, you should be able to discern the engineered decays around the vocals.  For hall ambiance testing I use the Linn recording Applewood Road Loosing My Religion, a single miked live recording.   Pick the component that lets you hear best the variations in the three individual vocalists inflections and vibratos, and how the sound progresses out into the open air venue. On classical music, I use the 2L recordings Magnificat and Reflections where hall back wall and ambience is distinct.  Choose the source component that reproduces there effects best. 

3:  Micro and Macro Dynamics: Reproduction of “soul” requires the source component to reproduce micro and micro dynamic detail.  I do not speak about “slam” which is not critical and often can rob life if it is unnaturally intense.  I speak of the detailed dynamic inflections that are critical to reproduction of what others call PRaT.  Any of the test recordings I mentioned can be used to determine differences in dynamic “soul”.  

Regarding R2R ladder technology vs. “chip” technology, my experience indicates while there are some broad generalizations, it is not the conversation technology but rather the analog output technology that effects “soul”.  Some of the best and most expensive DACs use “chip” technology.  Some generalizations, IMHO, are ladder DACs (Holo May, DCS, Denafrips)  more laid back in their presentation from a staging perspective.  Timbre is accurate but laid back as well.   Images seem to also be lighter.  This is to the liking of many.  Chip or proprietary conversion designs (Mola Mola, Bricasti, AR) in general are more upfront in presentation from a staging perspective. Timbre is accurate but with more immediacy.  Imaging is more dense.  Recognize these are broad generalizations in my system to my ears. I do not prefer ladder DACs.  These generalizations were based on head to head auditions.  At the time I owned a Wyred4Sound 10th Anniversary DAC based on Sabre chip which excelled at reproduction of analogue “soul” and my opinion was backed up by many pro reviewers.  I purchased a Mola Mola Tambaqui just for the reason you are looking for.  It was better to my ears in lack of artifacts , image density, and dynamics, as well as timbre, giving music life.  It is not perfect.  It does not have the widest or deepest stage and while ambience reproduction is excellent directly around performers, it does not extend into the spaces between as well as others I auditioned.

My recommendation is to look for used offerings from Brisasti and Audio Research in you budget.  Above your budget look at a used Mola Mola or DCS Bartok.  The Bartok Appex sounds more organic (soul) than its predecessor.  Please audition because all of us have perceptions of what produces “soul”.   Hope my long winded  post at least stimulates a thought process that assist you in making a decision.  

 

 

Sounds like a ladder DAC would get you where you would like to go.  At your price point you could swing a Denafrips or Holo Audio.  I would look at those first.  The Holo has a reputation of being a little more "tuby"  than the Denafrips with leans towards more revealing.  Good luck and cheers.

Currently demoing a T&A D200 DAC.  The most substantial difference I've ever heard in a DAC.  I use an RME in my studio setup, and have familiarity with several DACs although never compared directly to this one.  I HIGHLY recommend you demo one if you can afford it (has built in PRE but you can use your PRE if you prefer)

It sounds extremely musical and full while maintaining extreme precision in the imaging department and the soundstage has never sound wider.  Really didn't think I'd get this much out of a DAC but when you're paying over $7k, it better sound good!

I've heard many good things about the Denafrips Terminator+ and a few others mentioned.  Nice thing about DACs, they don't weigh a ton so return shipping isn't so bad, or you can buy used and just flip them.

There's a used T&A for $4800 on us audio mart rn.  If I was you, I'd grab one of those, a denafrips and maybe one or two other DACs to compare.  Any local hifi shops that will let you borrow gear?  Super invaluable in this process of gear selection!  Best of luck to you in your journey!

I just find it a little hard to believe that, with a preamp with three very different modes of operation, the op has not even tried the other two, esp. the tubes.  Press the button!  Also, the Border Patrol DAC, which has been mentioned several times, and can be had for much less than a grand, could be the another answer to your problem.

 

You can grab the Yggdrasil OG as the GS model for cheap. It has an exuberance to it that I find compelling. I think it is far more satisfying to my ears than others near it’s price range.

 

the Freya+ is a really excellent preamp with the right tubes. After much experimenting, I found the combo of Ken-Rad VT231’s with blackout glass in the gain stage with smooth sounding RCA 5692’s in the buffer stage to be the overall best combo. 
 

 

I exclusively stream via ROON from my Auralic Aries S1 and recently purchased a Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE to compare against my Chord Hugo TT2 & Mscaler combo.

So, from FPGA to R2R - the Holo Audio in my opinion sounds fuller, richer and more natural, where as the Hugo TT2  presents fantastic detail although I have found it overly analytical, accentuates sibilance for my taste and ultimately too fatiguing for long listening sessions.
 

I’ve noticed with the Holo Audio I reach for the volume control much less than I did with the Hugo to tame the fatiguing highs.

Worth mentioning I’m currently outputting to a Willsenton R8 with rolled tubes although I have my eye on a Freya + to switch out the R8 and hook up my solid state Chord Electronics SPM 1050mkii power amp (200w into 8ohms)

I would suggest perhaps considering experimenting with the Freya + in tube mode and look at tube rolling, I significantly changed the sound signature of the R8 doing this.

Good luck!

 

 

 

For R2R dac you can’t wrong with a Pontus dac. I preferred it over the terminator plus. Don’t get me wrong the terminator is a good sounding dac. I just preferred the presentation of the Pontus in my system. However I evidently purchase the Holo May Kte. With this dac I no longer hear a dac. It simply gets out of the way. 
Just for reference,  I prefer a warm tone.,

@trn I didn't know balanced connections were preferred. The reviews of the Border patrol DAC speaks to what you are looking for. I heard one of their DACs at a show, but the set up was not very good for developing an opinion on the DAC's sound.

 

Good Luck.

I've conspicuously avoided playing around with the preamp, just because it goes against my grain - graduate of the straight wire with gain school. 

While I don’t think it is the complete solution, I do think that an active preamp could improve the character of your sound. Many say it is the heart of your system and a lot of effort has been put into developing great reference, and active, preamps. 

@g2the2nd Border Patrol does not appear to have a balanced output option. 

@wturkey +1

"As with the previous model, the passive mode offers a solid-state flavour with a more transparent and revealing sound albeit with less soundstage and harmonic bloom compared to the tube gain. The tube gain also impacts a more holographic sound stage with height and depth while also adding some weight to the lower frequency spectrum."

@trn

Give Mikey at 11 stereo a call, a Dac with the right volume control hooked directly to your amp sounds like a great solution for you. The Audio Analogue AAdac is a great solution for $5000 with a great volume control, it can be used as a preamp or not with a flip of a switch…

You may be the right customer for the Border Patrol. Musicality over technical prowess.

The Freya+ is in your system at this time. It has 3 different gain modes of operation. Before shelling out a pile of cash, try the other 2 modes…

 

Simply one man’s opinion….

@oddiofyl thanks for your advice. For ref, I'm not quick to spend any amount for anything. I research, I demo, I study, I seek advice, and then I think about it some more. I don't 'roll' gear. I tend to stick with my main stuff for extended periods (like decades) if I like it, as evidenced by the 25yr old speakers and 20yr old amps I'm talking about here. Good stuff is just good stuff. I have several other amps and sets of speakers, btw, I've been spending unreasonable sums of money on audio gear (professional and consumer) for more than 50 years. I bought the L100's I mentioned above, new in ~'72 when they cost as much as a new car. :-0 

I can't agree with you on the need for an active pre. If a preamp is doing anything other than adding volume (simplified explanation) or input switching, it's doing something wrong. 

+1 on Merason Reuss. I just got the Dac 1mkII and it transformed my system into liquid gold. I was previously using my Chord Qutest or the dac on my Luxman CD 03, both of which were ok, but a bit dry. All of the Merason line I’ve heard are musical with fantastic clarity, a rare breed. 

If you are running the Freya+ in passive mode then you are using the wrong Schiit. In that price range, you should switch to the Kara, a newer model that gives a much fuller presentation in the midrange than Kara+ in passive.

So you don’t piss in the wind and waste money and be disappointed, I would call Mikey at 11 stereo…he has great dacs for every price range and is honest…he won’t over sell you…for budget minded he has the New Ontech Dac07 with I have be using for a while it’s great for 2500, next up is the Audio Analogue AADAC for 5000…he has the Meitner MA-3 for 10k which I am thinking about upgrading to…

‘bottom line let the experience of a expert help you…

I would stay with a Pass Labs preamp, I sorta read through this post fast if you are considering a preamp…the Pass Pre sounds the best with my PassXA25 and First watt sit-4 going to the Volti audio speakers…

I have the Denafrips Venus 12th anniversary and the New Ontech Dac07, both going into the same streamer, Venus with 12s and dac07 with an rca cable ..the Venus has more grit and very detailed and dynamic where the New Ontech has all those qualities but more musical and smooth less fatigue but certain times of the day I love both..click of the Pass remote makes it easy to change dacs..all of us are very fortunate….

The Singularity tech in the Schitt refers to their FPGA ideas for a DAC.

I wrote on other threads some comparisons of the Yggi+ OG to the $15k Lumin X1 that I owned. My OG was also recently at a headphone show and went head-to-head with the $15k or $20k Chord Dave and the Mola Mola Tambaqui DACs. The results were interesting, and I feel lucky to have bought the last Yggi+ OG available. This one is a keeper. Not a fan anymore of the LIM DAC I own. The MIB is supposed to be close in sound to my OG.

The next versions will be better. The guy designing these DACs is a superstar in this tech and has over 30 years of experience.

The ESS chips are used in some good sounding DACs.   

That's like saying all blue cars suck....  much more to be gained with a class leading preamp.