Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

@carlsbad 

Just now reading this thread and you comment just cracked me up!

ASR is the Shock Jock of the audiophile world, 

@rcaguy book ordered.
Thanks

Thanks, Jetter.  Trying to be helpful (after 60+ years as an audio professional), I've published a book on the Phonograph to get the most from the groove.

@holmz

There is some bizarre tribalism around that parallels religion, politics, vaccines, etc…

We don’t have those issues in Australia.

Oh, wait, stereonet AU. Be upper class Green or Marxist and you are invited to the club. 

I used to sometimes chat on their open forums about matters of import but when I got blocked, I felt no need to request redemption or forgiveness.

My loss, of course.

+1 @noske 

It’s funny as I attracted a 2 week ban there, but none here.

There is some bizarre tribalism around that parallels religion, politics, vaccines, etc…  But I guess it is all politics in the end.

In the words of Rodney King. “Why can’t we all just get along?”

@thyname 

Why? He has his own website and forum. He owns it. The ASR. And according to him, very popular. Why the need to spend so much time in other forums? Any sane person would logically ask that question. 

@amir_asr  has responded to this question perhaps a couple of times. 

ASR has been introduced and critiqued, and it is his right to respond in whatever manner he chooses.

Tell the community what you really think.

@mapman +100 "Wow this Amir guy really knows how to ruffle some feathers in these parts. Maybe he’d be better off just offering up opinions like most everyone else."

Today's crowd doesn't go to same school as it was going 40 years ago. Too many school subjects designed to provide knowledge had been replaced by subjects that block gaining knowledge. That's pretty much why. The global intelligence retardation is the primary reason. It's a lot easier to deal and to manipulate dumb vs. educated smart one. Easier to blow soap bubble and sell crap for a lot more than it's worth.

Music it is about the music not the gear. 

@mapman ​​​​​@thyname  +10

@rcaguy I am NOT a data denier. I also am not a real audiophile since I do not worry about my equipment (or their measurements). I prefer to listen to my music as I also don’t have the time to concern myself with what could make my audio system sound better. Only speakers at this point but I enjoy my system the way it is.

Read all of my posts and you will see how I desire test measurements where they are available. If they are not available, I do not just purchase equipment based on published meaningful technical specifications. They can also deceive as well (meaningful depends on it’s veracity as well). It’s also the synergy factor between equipment parts and the room as well. It’s not like building a tinkertoy. A good audio system is more complex. I absolutely believe cabling is equivalent to equipment in importance. Tweaks can be the added spice or correct acoustic deficiencies.

The amp in question sounds like one John Atkinson sort of trashed in 2018. Might it be a recent Cary Audio’s CAD-805RS? I read the review a while back and was rather shocked at it’s mediocre performance both distortion and power figures. That amp is $17K. Or the 25 year old Cary CAD-805 which has equally poor measurements at $9K in 2001. Thomas Norton warned, "There is more to the story than measurements, of course; if you listen to the CAD-805s, fall in love with their sound, and can afford the price and loudspeaker restrictions, by all means buy them. But go into the purchase with open ears." After consuming five critics opinions (four in love with it) on that amp over the years, I would choose the McIntosh MC30s. In my system, MC30s have unbelievably beautiful mids and sound like double the rated power (conservatively specd’  with great dynamics) but flabby bass. Friends bi-amp using it for the mids and highs.

@holmz For decades my cartridges have come with test graph measurements, sometimes with not just frequency sweep but with tracking force and test room temperature. Unfortunately, I’ve heard that cartridge manufacturers are dropping their included graphs in their cartridge boxes.

@mapman that was subtle… 😎

Why? He has his own website and forum. He owns it. The ASR. And according to him, very popular. Why the need to spend so much time in other forums? Any sane person would logically ask that question. 

Wow this Amir guy really knows how to ruffle some feathers in these parts. Maybe he’d be better off just offering up opinions like most everyone else.

Ask yourself, why is Amir bothering to come to this site? 

Good question. 🤔

I am thinking… propaganda …?

My cartridge test measured flat from 10Hz to 20Khz per the test sheet (unlike Lyras with their rising high end test measurements I've seen as well a heard).  

Where do the measurements for cartridges exist?
That seems like a place I would to peruse.

@rcaguy welcome to the forum. I agree about attending to both objective and subjective experiences. Do you have a favorite brand that you like that attends to both? 

@rcaguy Welcome to Audiogon.  I read both of your new posts and thought they are well thought out.  Having both the expertise and equipment to make meaningful measurements to supplement your listening to a piece of equipment being considered for purchase is commendable. As you stated:

And for decades my policy was not to buy anything that did not publish meaningful technical specifications that were the minimum performance a buyer could expect.

For example, there was thread not too long ago which described that a tube amplifier from a well-known designer produced far less than its stated watts per channel and in fact the size of the transformer could not possibly produce its stated WPC.  Your testing might have caught this prior to purchase. 

I have been a member here a long time and can tell you that there will be a lot of members who will find that the criticism hurled at you above is totally unwarranted.

So another of the ASR minions chirps off.

No one is denying data just that there are intangibles in audio also. Data is not the final determining factor. Also bad data, poorly executed measurements are meaningless. 

Must be repeatable and verifiable when it comes to measurements.

rcaguy

2 posts

11-08-2022 at 02:36pm 

I'm surprised by the number of "data deniers" in this thread, some saying they prefer "just listening to music."  You can do both.  Attending to the technical can only make your enjoyment of the music better.  Such as by eliminating distortion artifacts, especially with analog media, such as vinyl.  (For cartridge & turntable science, note the 2nd edition of "Better Sound from your Phonograph" is out.)

I'm surprised by the number of "data deniers" in this thread, some saying they prefer "just listening to music."  You can do both.  Attending to the technical can only make your enjoyment of the music better.  Such as by eliminating distortion artifacts, especially with analog media, such as vinyl.  (For cartridge & turntable science, note the 2nd edition of "Better Sound from your Phonograph" is out.)

@rcaguy +1 I agree with you.  There is a lack of accurate test measurements by manufacturers.  There is an overabundance of purple prose.   Specs are often meaningless (when I see -10db bass frequency, I assume there is something suspect about the bass response).  That is why I started this forum.  I certainly would not want to purchase a cartridge not knowing it's operational characteristics and frequency response, then installing it, breaking it in, adjusting it's installation and find out it is a mismatch physically to my arm or pre-amp or sonically to my taste.  Tweaks and high end cables are the worst with no specs or measurements generally.

@holmz  The Ruby 3 was $3000 in 2005.  Today, if new, probably $4500-$5000.  Out of my price range (although I can afford it, I just can't tolerate owning such a delicate item that could be rendered worthless so easily).  Retailers were trying to convince me that the Umami Red $4000 cartridge would be perfect for me.  Maybe.  I made my choice after hearing many friends Dynavector 20XH and maybe half a dozen used at audio shows.  Never failed to impress me.  

@whipsaw Ask yourself, why is Amir bothering to come to this site?  To lecture us on right and wrong on deciding to purchase equipment?  To advertise the superiority of his knowledge over all of us (not me and certainly not my many friends in the industry, manufacturers, remastering engineers and even another very smart and wealthy electrical engineer).  I hate it when someone tells me that I can't determine gross differences in sound without blind testing. That it is all a bias I have (I don't care one way or the other whether it's new or used equipment, cheap or expensive).  I am a very learned listener and have heard over 1000 audio systems in my life.  If uninterested laymen can hear a difference, how much more so for a trained listener?   

When I was in colleges, 45+ years ago, people had me have their equipment repaired and would install them with the best sounding/matching cabling.  I remember one system with all tube Harmon Kardon gear and large Altec speakers.  I had them purchase a Harmon Kardon turntable, Dynavector cartridge and Fulton speaker cabling.  Boy, that was a nice sounding system.  I'm sure Amir would hate that system after he measured it, it's so full of distortion.  Sure, there wasn't much to set up a cartridge in that table, just VTF and VTA at the time.  Regardless, the elderly and wealthy couple loved it until they passed.  I make people happy listening to music.  I wouldn't trust Amir's opinion on sound, only his test measurements.  

From the beginning of the hi-fi hobby in the 1950s, "performance characteristics" WERE tests results.  Trade magazines used 3rd party labs (Hirsch-Hauck etc.) as independent evaluators.  And for decades my policy was not to buy anything that did not publish meaningful technical specifications that were the minimum performance a buyer could expect.  However these evolved into meaningless "marketing specs" that, if they measured anything, was the lone "creampuff" no one could expect to buy.  Now living in a cancel-culture that poo-poos science and expertise, many (most?) consumers don't have the knowledge or time to learn about measured performance specs, so manufacturers seldom publish them.  Many store salespersons haven't a clue.  One of the last to fall was JBL Professional until acquisition of Harman by Samsung, where established models have been cancelled wholesale, but new lines have no performance data or curves.  And consumer magazine "reviews" are ever more blatantly advertiser-influenced, using the same purple prose as their ads.  I have T&M equipment, and return sub-standard audio electronics, typically for "pin1 problems" or output powerr given as only one channel driven to near destruction.  And rejected speakers for high distortion, flabby bass, and advertising bogus LF extension (rather than -3dB, advertising "range" that implies -10dB).  Caveat emptor - Buyer beware.

This is another review of the Nordost Tyr2 cables from TAS that includes the specs:

"So, transparency, precision, purity, depth, texture, openness, expansiveness… Nordost’s Tyr 2 loom brings all of this and more to the listening experience. Yet as I wrap up these thoughts another word now pops to mind that perhaps best sums up my analogy between wine and audio: transformative. That is perhaps the ultimate thing I can say about any experience."

Wayne Garcia 2020

I have to say that some of the responses by certain posters, including the OP, have been very disappointing.

@prof is a serious audiophile who has related, professional qualifications, is an independent thinker, and a very helpful contributor to a number of audio forums. His contributions are almost invariably substantial, respectful, and grounded in facts. His impressions of certain speakers are as eloquent and useful as any that I have come across from professional reviewers.

It’s a mystery to me why anyone would lash out at him, essentially because he refuses to budge from the reasonable position that if people hear differences between components when there is no scientific explanation for such differences, the claims can only be fully compelling through blind testing.

Note that I am much more of a "subjectivist" than "objectivist", and strongly believe that I have heard differences between both speaker and powers cables. I currently use some fairly expensive cables, albeit purchased used. I have not engaged in blind testing because of how complicated and expensive it would be, but completely agree that @prof would be correct about my claims being suspect. I can’t deny that I am vulnerable to biases, nor can I guarantee that I would pass a blind test.

I also don’t get the vitriol aimed at @amir_asr. I don’t spend much time on his site, but to dismiss his qualifications with the wave of a hand is ludicrous. He has a far better foundation on which to perform the kind of tests that he does than the vast majority of audiophiles.

At some point I will write a post about some of my recent experiences with power cables, which were certainly compelling to me, even in the absence of blind testing!

holmz I agree. The $15K cartridge sounded great in a $1+ million system (Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement on a Kronos top turntable). Using my LPs, it couldn’t sound more realistic and involving. Maybe it would have sounded great on my other old and/or poorly pressed LPs. I know from experience and friends who had more expensive cartridges that they preferred certain LPs over others. While sounding great on some, they sounded blah or irritating on others. My Benz Ruby3 did not like SUTs. It preferred playing through an active step up in a phono pre-amp. The Dynavector loves my Zesto Allesso SUT.

I can only imagine what sort of systems many people have.
Luckily I am a simple fellow with simple tastes, so I can get by with average gear.

I did come close to getting a Micro Benz last year though (LPS). I have no idea what the ruby3 is, which probably means I cannot afford it 🙄

@holmz  I agree.  The $15K cartridge sounded great in a $1+ million system (Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement on a Kronos top turntable). Using my LPs, it couldn’t sound more realistic and involving. Maybe it would have sounded great on my other old and/or poorly pressed LPs. I know from experience and friends who had more expensive cartridges that they preferred certain LPs over others. While sounding great on some, they sounded blah or irritating on others. My Benz Ruby3 did not like SUTs. It preferred playing through an active step up in a phono pre-amp. The Dynavector loves my Zesto Allesso SUT.

@amir - YOU ARE SO FULL OF YOURSELF!!!!!You mad a change, he listened more carefully and now he "heard" more detail, air, etc. Nothing had changed in the sound. It was him that changed because our hearing is elastic and 2-way. A comparison causes our brain to work differently and hence we perceive things differently. Sure, my friend is such a fool too, he’s an electrical engineer with a net worth north of $50 million with 552 apartment units, multiple homes, etc. He is so stupid he can’t tell when his system sucked (3 friends and myself did not appreciate the ragged/bad bass and mushy, distant/behind the speaker floating in the air sound). He swapped equipment annually for $10,000s and lost $26K on one amp in 2020. After Covid, he replaces junk power cables with quality ones and he is 100% mislead by his imagination. NO NO NO!!!!! You are full of hot air (and that’s being nice)!

You service your miscreants and sane members of ASR. I am not an authority on measurements like you say you are. But I bet that I am more an authority on creating a great sounding system with new or used equipment! I have friends in the remastering and audio equipment manufacturing business, the latter who put your puny knowledge of audio equipment to shame. When was the last time you developed your own amp, pre-amp, phono stage, DAC, turntable, arm, cables (oh anyone can do that-not!). Never? My friends in the business know a lot more than you do and they say I have a very good ear for sound. You’re just the Wizard of Oz.

If you are interested, you can see measurements in his listening room (with and without room EQ via the Lyngdorf)

I have not used room EQ for 2 channel yet, but on the AVP it works well.

Maybe I can set up the AVP to output another “zone” as 2 channel with room correction… like a 2.2.0 setup?

But I sort of like a bare 2 channel set up, and would need to try to see if it is good.

Here is a video to watch if you don't believe in being fooled:

I've heard $15+K cartridges and they did sound great with my hot stampers.  They don't typically sound as good with my lesser pressings, mono LPs, etc.  That is why I chose to step down to a Dynavector 20X2L.  One friend who is an LP only expert who is seen all over the Southwest at shows selling high end jazz as well as rock and classical agreed that his Dynavector 20X2H played more LPs better than his current Dynavector XX2L.  When the latter wears out, he will return the former.  Three other friends with 3,500 to 8,000 LPs also use the same cartridge, one stepping down from the Dynavector D3.  The 20X2 sounds great on so many LPs.  

@fleschler it would be neat if we had a way to avoid the first $15k cartridge and just go straight to the better one - which is also cheaper… sometimes cost is not the best metric.

@fleschler 

That he is a fool too? 

Folks used to think you caught a cold because the air was cold.  This didn't make them a fool.  They just didn't know that it was caused by a virus.  Every bone in their body thought it was the cold weather because that is when people generally caught cold.  It made layman sense.  But simply was not true.

Professionals in every field know of things that lay people think are true but they are not.  In audio however, folks walk around ignoring what the science/engineering says.  They think they are so smart that they have figured out things that eluded those people.  

So no, he is not a fool but was fooled by you.  He didn't know everything I just explained.  You do but still go on causing people to believe in nonsense and cost them money.

I was aiming for sympathetic humour, not trying to insult you, sorry if it misfired.

yeah @axo1989 I wasn’t sure if it was humour or an insult, so I picked up a travel book at the newsagent. 😎

I do a bit of mentoring for workmates, and they are pretty skilled, but occasionally they like a pointer. That is about as close to teaching as I get.

I suspect that some of the posters here have made retirement or alcoholism a real thing for their teachers.

@fleschler 

After replacing all six power cables, he admits that scientifically it is unexplainable but the difference exists. 

Science trivially explains that.  You mad a change, he listened more carefully and now he "heard" more detail, air, etc.  Nothing had changed in the sound.  It was him that changed because our hearing is elastic and 2-way.  A comparison causes our brain to work differently and hence we perceive things differently.  

We prove the above two ways:

1. We test the person blind and repeat at least 10 times and see if he gets > 8 right.  Every audiophile tested this way has failed to hear the same differences.

2. We perform measurements to see if there is a difference or not.  If nothing has changed in the waveform coming out of your audio device, then your listening test protocol is wrong.

All of this has been known for decades.  But some audiophiles refuse to believe it.  No amount of explaining the simple facts of how their perception works makes them change.  They go on wasting money on useless audio product after useless audio product.

I have tested a number of digital audio cables by the way. The last one was the $1,800 Nordost Tyr 2: 

I also performed listening tests and found no differene.

Before you come back and say you can hear what I can't, turn on a video camera and perform the AB test and repeat 10 times randomly.  Unless you can show this, you have no case.  None.  You are simple unaware of how your hearing and perception work.  

@prof  So, you are a firm believer that all digital cable, if correctly made, sounds the same.  So what I say is snake oil.  That's where I am 100% certain you are mistaken.  I stated you can believe what you want but don't imply that I am wrong because I didn't test measure the differences or that I am being deceived (or all of my friends and experts are also being deceived).  Go back to ASR's snake oil forums and write all you want about how all digital cables sound the same, I don't care.  There is an immense difference in sound from the six different cables I tried.  

This is as silly as my neighbor who is an electrical engineer who thought all power cables should sound the same with a $1/2 million system that had major frequency irregularities and sonic mush.  He often changed expensive equipment not knowing why they didn't satisfy him.  Just one superior cable on his amp and he was convinced he was wrong.  After replacing all six power cables, he admits that scientifically it is unexplainable but the difference exists.  You think he is being deceived now?  That he is a fool too?    Yes, I guess based on your certainty that all digital cables sound the same that power cables also sound the same, unless you reserve your "truth" only about digital cables.

@amir_asr

You said:

"You don’t even know how to use the tool you have there."

You spent $100K on your tools and can’t even measure your own room, you think I have problems? LOL...

@amir_asr ... found an English trailer I can link, and I reckon I was wrong, the dialog really is on point: "how do you think the hike's going so far?" ...

@amir_asr

Another bait and switch? Please POST, you got creds a mile long, your a dealer, a website owner, and also a guest of this site.

I will give you rematch, NP. As soon as you POST and get rid of that big goose egg that has been coming after ASR in this throw down OK?

@kota1 

Can we get this game on, will you post your system profile, stop with the hot air already???

Are you trying to avoid discussing yours???  

Buh Bye @prof  

Now that you listed your creds I feel even better we are beating you at the

system/FR measurement throw down-

Audiogon Forum 1- ASR 0

You can have a rematch anytime, with those creds you should do much better in the rematch, just answer the bell this time and post your system pics, components, and FR graph in your profile.

Otherwise that really long post of your impressive creds= just more hot air.

Yeesh.  This stuff is getting pretty childish.

Good sign this thread is in a death spiral. 

Time to abandon. 

See y'all....

I do NOT refuse to accept the validity of blind testing equipment, cables or tweaks. 

That's good.

However, I am unable to do blind testing.  So, I rely on my hearing. 

Ok, that's fine.  As I've argued, most of us don't have the time or set up or inclination to do blind testing.  Buy what you want, for whatever reason.

But it gives me plenty of reason to maintain skepticism if you happen to make claims for hearing things that are technically improbable.  My skepticism shouldn't stop you from buying whatever you want of course...but if for instance you said an expensive digital cable made Big Differences in your system vs a functioning cheap digital cable, I'm quite aware it is likely sighted bias at work, unless it could be shown you or someone else could reliably identify these changes "without peeking." ;-)

Not too bad in my opinion.  I also listen to my friends who have superior acoustic listening/interpretation ability.  They pinpoint problems, one who has Asperger and audio sound is his superiority in life.  His hearing is like a computer.  I don't inform my two Golden Ear friends what I have done/doing.  They tell me what they are hearing and often, what corrections should be made.  Try topping that with Blind Testing by the usual crowd of audiophiles.  They have really taught me to hear/listen better.  My wife is so used to decades of my cable testing  for the manufacturer that she automatically is skeptical of the sound whether it meets with her approval or something less.  She said I have trained her to hear sound as well as music.  Before me, she was fine listening to a boombox and car radio.  

And the point that you don't want to acknowledge is that literally nothing you described in that paragraph protects you or anyone you mentioned from regular old perceptual biases in which you can hear things that aren't there.

Maybe that sounds dismissive to you.  But think of what your position will be when I might say "I don't hear a difference" with some gear change that you believe sounds different.  Your response will be dismissive of my hearing (or gear, or whatever), it won't act as any evidence against what you firmly believe because, as you've said, if you believe you heard it, it's true.

And, once again, I tend to buy gear essentially the same way you do, by listening to it, so we are not that far off as audiophiles.  I just try to maintain epistemic humility in the face of our perceptual fallibility, and acknowledge I could be wrong.

@prof you are a reader right? You troll through all these threads cause you have nothing better to do. 

How did you miss this? Amir tagged me. 

Now goodnight to you and charge those batteries on your trolling motor.

@amir_asr

Still waiting for you to post something, anything, that is why you have 0.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt you have a system so you do not get -1.

Can we get this game on, will you post your system profile, stop with the hot air already???

@kota1 

system/FR measurement throw down-

Audiogon Forum 1- ASR 0

I don't know why you keep giving  yourself score of 1.  You have not post any measurements of your room as it sits now.  What you have in your profile is a fantasy.  It is NOT your room current room measurements.  You don't even know how to use the tool you have there.  Right now, I would give you score of -1. 

I don't use this term lightly because it's often tossed around too recklessly.

But jerryg123 is clearly trolling.   Again...what people get out of being trolls is beyond me, it's a very odd way to spend one's time, but...almost every forum is infected at one point or another by people who spend their time that way.

I suppose at least it has afforded an opportunity for Amir to re-iterate some of his credentials for others who may be interested, but clearly you-know-who is not here for actual civil conversation.

@fleschler 

@kota1  Right! Where are his in room test measurements?  Did he post them on his site?  Or does he think that just by choosing the best measuring equipment (and any old major brand professional cable) that his room sound measures perfectly (or anywhere near perfect throughout or just in the sweet spot seat)? 

If you are interested, you can see measurements in his listening room (with and without room EQ via the Lyngdorf) in the ASR discussion linked by @prof upthread (iirc). This one (sorry to inflict the ASR sheep logo on everyone, not sure how to link without embedding) ...

@amir_asr

If this is how you research your facts about audio, no wonder you are so lost in the woods there.

Gus Van Sant has already made a cautionary film about what happens when you follow Gerry into the wilderness. Sadly I can only link to the trailer in German, but you don't really need language to convey the scenario:

@kota1  Right! Where are his in room test measurements?  Did he post them on his site?  Or does he think that just by choosing the best measuring equipment (and any old major brand professional cable) that his room sound measures perfectly (or anywhere near perfect throughout or just in the sweet spot seat)? 

@prof   but refuse to accept the validity of blind testing components for what you can *really* hear or not).  I do NOT refuse to accept the validity of blind testing equipment, cables or tweaks.  However, I am unable to do blind testing.  So, I rely on my hearing.  Not too bad in my opinion.  I also listen to my friends who have superior acoustic listening/interpretation ability.  They pinpoint problems, one who has Asperger and audio sound is his superiority in life.  His hearing is like a computer.  I don't inform my two Golden Ear friends what I have done/doing.  They tell me what they are hearing and often, what corrections should be made.  Try topping that with Blind Testing by the usual crowd of audiophiles.  They have really taught me to hear/listen better.  My wife is so used to decades of my cable testing  for the manufacturer that she automatically is skeptical of the sound whether it meets with her approval or something less.  She said I have trained her to hear sound as well as music.  Before me, she was fine listening to a boombox and car radio.  

@holmz I have posted my components and my room on Audiogon.  I do not have tone controls.  I don't mess around with feedback settings, cartridge impedance settings, etc.  I can adjust these but once I found the best sounding setting, I leave them alone.  I sit back and listen to music.  I don't play with equipment, it's not my thing. 

I've heard $15+K cartridges and they did sound great with my hot stampers.  They don't typically sound as good with my lesser pressings, mono LPs, etc.  That is why I chose to step down to a Dynavector 20X2L.  One friend who is an LP only expert who is seen all over the Southwest at shows selling high end jazz as well as rock and classical agreed that his Dynavector 20X2H played more LPs better than his current Dynavector XX2L.  When the latter wears out, he will return the former.  Three other friends with 3,500 to 8,000 LPs also use the same cartridge, one stepping down from the Dynavector D3.  The 20X2 sounds great on so many LPs.  

@amir_asr do not tag me. I am not lost I am not one of your followers and as I have stated I will never go on your site.

I really do not care about your equipment, software or you.

I bid you good day and good riddance.

Looks like you wasted $100K.

Oh and I figured it out, you are old. 

Good day.