Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?
After my Audio Science Review review forum, it became apparent that nearly the only way one can determine the measurements of an audio product is wait for a review on line or in a publication. Most equipment is never reviewed or is given a subjective analysis rather than a measurement oriented review. One would think that manufacturers used tests and measurements to design and construct their products.
Manufacturers routinely give the performance characteristics of their products as Specifications. Those are not test measurements.
I searched the Revel speaker site for measurements of any of their speakers and could not find any. Revels are universally lauded for their exceptional reviewed measurements. Lack of published manufacturer measurements is true for nearly every speaker manufacturer I've searched for on line, perhaps several hundred. Same is true for amps, pre-amps, DACs, transports, turntables, well you get the picture. Do they have something to hide? I doubt the good quality products have anything to hide but poor quality products do.
ASR prides itself in providing "true" measurements that will aid in purchase decisions. Why don't the manufacturers provide these measurements so that reviewers can test if they are truthful or not?
Then there are the cables and tweaks for which I suspect that there are inadequate tests available to measure sonically perceived differences but which objectivists believe don't exist or are "snake oil."
Well, please chime in if you have some illuminating thoughts on the subject.
I would have loved to see manufacturers measurements on my equipment and especially those that I rejected.
As you can see, companies like Schiit make the ASR b-hole king and his minions useless (the latter couldn’t produce a report of this caliber).
It would be good though if more manufacturers would release measurements of the above caliber so ASR gets more useless by the day. Such manufacturers sure know a whole lot more about measurements than the latter.
Here are some other alternatives to ASR w.r.t measurements.....Erin’s Audio Corner, John Atkinson, Audioholics, etc
Man, that is a meanspirited thing to say. Are you this way in real life? Someone disagrees with your audio views and you get personal this way?
That aside, I am sure there are executives or managers with better credentials and notoriety than me. I am however, proud of the accomplishments of my teams and my personal contributions to many of them. Here are some examples:
1. Technologies developed in my team ship in billions of devices a year. Not millions but billions. Every few weeks I run into specs of a device that has technology from my team in all manner of products and software.
2. Our video technology is mandatory in Blu-ray format and was responsible for advancement of competing standards to catch up to same. Without our involvement, Blu-ray format would have only supported the ancient but expensive (see below) MPEG-2 video codec.
3. We worked hard to make the cost of your AV products lower. While royalties for MPEG-2 video codec was $2.50 per device with no cap, we pushed and achieved cost of less than 50 cents with caps for advanced codecs such as H.264.
4. Speaker of H.264 and other ITU/MPEG standards, we chaired the development of them at those organizations.
5. I came to Microsoft as part of an acquisition of our start up where we significantly innovated in delivery of video on the Internet. We managed to do this by inventing such as schemes as MBR: multibitrate Audio/video. Every video you watch on the web today uses the same scheme as you see the quality go up and down based on your connection speed.
6. Technologies developed by my team have been recognized by no less than three Emmy awards. The first two predate the Internet as we know it today but the last one is well documented (for advancements in delivery of video on the Internet). Here is a picture of me holding the statue:
😎
Sorry Amir. You helped me prove my point by providing more details!
Am I like this in real life? Sometimes. Not always!
All of that would have still been possible without you leading it, or your team.
Uhhhhh yours.... please post your FR along with your system
Forget about it. He has no system. Zero. It’s so funny he now he pretends to be a speaker manufacturer.
I have asked him the same exact question everytime during his previous 16-17 usernames. He will tell you nothing. Not even the name of one single piece of his imaginary “system”
I sent @amir_asr a message on here. Not sure if he saw it or had time to read it. No response yet.
Part of the message i wrote with the headline "Live and Let Live" - straight from the web:you should tolerate the opinions and behavior of others so that they will similarly tolerate your own. Makes sense, right?
I said to him:
What often gets you trouble on virtually every forum (other than ASR) is you always wanting to be right, telling others they are wrong, or interjecting your beliefs upon others who are not interested. I have learned that "Live and Let Live" is a good way to go about conversing on forums. For example, I recently saw a post about an OP wanting to maybe buy a brand-i-don't-like product. I hate the brand and the low-quality etc. it's a toy to me. Not audio equipment for me. I didn't tell the OP that...because I know that perhaps they will like it. And I'd rather not interfere...
Not my money to spend. If someone else is happy with an audio product, then sure, i'm happy for them. Whatever.
What point are you trying to make. You know we are in agreement, that we both feel Amir's room is a bit of a disaster, though the smooth dispersion of the Revels will help.
The speakers are measured with a device that measures totally independent of the room it is in. It is equivalent to putting it in a large and very good anechoic chamber.
What other measurement are you expecting?
Cin Dyment: have you ever considered confronting your master on ASR? Or is your ego bigger than his?
That’s all it took for you to “stand corrected” and kiss your master’s ass? 😂😂😂. Go back to ASR, and stop playing your childish games. You know very well what I mean.
What point are you trying to make. You know we are in agreement, that we both feel Amir's room is a bit of a disaster, though the smooth dispersion of the Revels will help.
The speakers are measured with a device that measures totally independent of the room it is in. It is equivalent to putting it in a large and very good anechoic chamber.
@mastering92 Re Amir and ASR. I asked Paul at PS Audio to explain how Amir's testing of the PS Audio Power Plant showed the device did nothing at all. Here's Paul's reply, which I got in only one day. That's impressive in itself
Hi Eric,
Sure. I get it. Amir misses the point entirely of the Power Plant’s purpose, which is not as a passive power conditioner that cleans the line noise (which is rather unimportant, sonically). Instead, its purpose is to regenerate new power and regulate that power in a dynamic fashion. That act of regulation lowers impedance and is what improves sonically the connected equipment.
It works and is amazing.
I don't miss any point. Indeed, I addressed every defense Paul put forward in my follow up tests and and videos. That aside, it is remarkable that he says reduction of noise is not the point of the product. This is mentioned clearly in the product page:
"With your system powered directly from the output of the P12, you can expect far better micro and macro dynamics, as well as cleaner, lower background noise. "
Everyone buys these things because they think they "reduce noise." Paul has changed his tune because that was shot down in my testing showing that this generation of regen is not nearly as clean as a proper AC regenerator as it mixes incoming AC with a correction signal. See this measurement:
And comparison against my proper lab AC regenerator:
As for impedance, I measured that post his argument. The turth is the other way around. An in-rush limiter was causing the device to produce less power than AC signal as shown in my amplifier measurements with Powerplant:
Impedance measurements confirmed that Powerplant made things worse, not better:
There was no stone unturned in analysis of this box showing that at best, it does nothing for your audio gear and at worst, you loose some power. And you pay $6,000 for the priviledge.
So please, please don't run with stuff manufacturers say. Be skeptical. Ask him to prove that his device has lower impedance as I have shown above. Ask him to show performance improvement with audio device outputs, not AC input.
If you can’t trust your ears, what makes you think you can trust measurements?
Oh, we trust your ears completely. It is the rest of your body which you include in "sound" evaluation that causes problems. This is the reasons audio research blinds the listener so that we can get more reliable data.
Alas, such blinding is time and resource consuming so we resort to measurements which are reliable and repeatable. We then interpret the results using psychacoustic research which is entirely based on listening tests.
A failed tech executive at Microsoft, worked at Sony for a while, made no meaningful contributions that stand today. No one from his generation knows who he is or what he does.
Man, that is a meanspirited thing to say. Are you this way in real life? Someone disagrees with your audio views and you get personal this way?
That aside, I am sure there are executives or managers with better credentials and notoriety than me. I am however, proud of the accomplishments of my teams and my personal contributions to many of them. Here are some examples:
1. Technologies developed in my team ship in billions of devices a year. Not millions but billions. Every few weeks I run into specs of a device that has technology from my team in all manner of products and software.
2. Our video technology is mandatory in Blu-ray format and was responsible for advancement of competing standards to catch up to same. Without our involvement, Blu-ray format would have only supported the ancient but expensive (see below) MPEG-2 video codec.
3. We worked hard to make the cost of your AV products lower. While royalties for MPEG-2 video codec was $2.50 per device with no cap, we pushed and achieved cost of less than 50 cents with caps for advanced codecs such as H.264.
4. Speaker of H.264 and other ITU/MPEG standards, we chaired the development of them at those organizations.
5. I came to Microsoft as part of an acquisition of our start up where we significantly innovated in delivery of video on the Internet. We managed to do this by inventing such as schemes as MBR: multibitrate Audio/video. Every video you watch on the web today uses the same scheme as you see the quality go up and down based on your connection speed.
6. Technologies developed by my team have been recognized by no less than three Emmy awards. The first two predate the Internet as we know it today but the last one is well documented (for advancements in delivery of video on the Internet). Here is a picture of me holding the statue:
7. I created relationships with many enemies of Microsoft. This included the top CE companies such as Panasonic. My contact has been the CEO of this company now for many years.
I could go on but it should be clear that your assertion is incorrect. But sure, maybe in the next post you show us your accomplishments and that of other reviewers covering audio.
Some more good points raised in a thread that's threatening to go off the rails.
Without standardized test methods, test equipment, and multiple people doing the same testing (to minimize bias and error), meaningful comparisons between equipment are difficult to achieve.
Apparently Amir's Klippel diagnostics system is amongst the most advanced in the world.
Many of the standard tests seen on ASR are now being seen on other sites too.
Marketing people love to claim cherry-picked specifications to try to get an edge for sales purposes.
Business is often a cut throat dog eat dog world where the slightest edge can mean the difference between survival and death.
We rarely get to hear some of the heartbreak stories of what happens behind the scenes.
However there is one infamous case that actually spilled over into public consciousness - the notorious Linn v Ariston legal battle.
I'd like to see key reviewer get together and agree on how they are going to collaboratively test audio components - but that is not likely to happen.
No, it's not. Reviewing is also a dog eat dog world. There's only room for so many.
Especially not since most of them are merely peddlers of the following point you raise.
Then there is the subjective measurement/opinion ......
@mastering92, I could not have proven my point better, if I had written your post myself. If you are going to attempt to discredit someone online, including me, I would recommended what you write being accurate, supportable, and relevant. Making false claims about someone's career, questioning someone's equipment when it is among the best available, and then following up with a series of statements related to technical information, that are either not logical or not defensible is not a successful path. I have issues with some of the work ASR has done and I can clearly, concisely, accurately, and defensibly state it. I also recognize that does not negate piece of their work.
@kenjit about speakers, perhaps he should give it a go first.
@kenjitwhen will you make the spherical speaker you posted about? The one based on studies done in the seventies that was buried by people that make box speakers?
@mastering92, how many people work under you?? What is the most number of people you have ever had work under you at a company?
Microsoft is huge. How many people at Microsoft have 1,000 people under them? You argument about them being a huge company matters little. Huge companies also don't allow people to grow into rolls where 1,000 people are under them if they are "failed". Sure, it happens, but in general, if you rise to have 1,000 people under you, then you had a lot of success and accomplishments along the way. When you make statements like that, it has no relevance to the discussion and just comes across as sour grapes. To me, I won't even read the rest of what you wrote as making that statement shows you are unable to be objective in your views and analysis. If you want people to respect what you write, then be respectful in your writing.
Go on and on? A list of what people without experience fear serves no purpose in your credibility with me. In my experience, people who specify "ceramic saftey capacitors" and "no saftey resistors" know how to spell "safety". Can you tell me the difference between a computer grade "vertical-chip capacitor" and an audio capacitor? I doubt my EEs know, perhaps they could learn something.
Perhaps you can share how if you measure a box, that happens to be a DAC, you are not measuring "the total sum of parts inside the electronics, but the DAC chip at the engineering standard itself". How could the equipment doing the measuring of the box measure anything but the total sum of the parts? Your statement is not logical.
I am not an EE, but I have a bunch working for me and I am quite aware of the processes and decision trees they use to achieve the results we have targeted and it is not to throw out a laundry list of fears. I would suggest not doing the same for speakers. That is an area I know very well.
It is good to be critical of any form of review, whether a listening test or even a measurement to ensure what was done is accurate and representative. However, your last post is not a reasoned critique addressing specific elements. It is an appeal. It does more to justify ASRs existence than it does to discredit it.
A critique would be calling into question the Klippel testing that was done of a large panel speaker. While Klippel can still provide highly accurate measurements of a speaker such as this, the test procedure must be modified, not just in the number of measurement points (which was done), but also the measurement cloud locations (and distance). This relates, as Amir has noted, to the accuracy of the model, but that accuracy figure is based on assumptions of what is being measured, so both need to be adapted and accurate to accurately assess the error band. As well, the calculated summaries such as predicted room response, reflections, etc. must be adapted when a source is large enough to behave as a line array in the room it will be installed in or they will be grossly inaccurate at the listening position.
I made sure you two lovebirds were on the same line....so as to be together.
I have been disappointed my so many of the top-measuring audio electronics featured on that website..! To such an extent that I sold all of them!! From DACs, to headphone amplifiers, to USB C dongles for android smartphones that claim better performance on paper than any high-end stand-alone DAC. You would think that Hollywood studios, Sony Music Studios, and other big players in industry would be using or recommending ASR gear by now...
High-end audio and the pro audio/live sound industries should have died off since the inception and frequently-posted publications on ASR - The industry as a whole has not adapted; and there are a multitude of reasons why they haven’t.
Products from those brands (You know who they are) are all "built to a cost" meaning that costs savings was all-important in terms of the quality of internal parts, design/implementation of DAC chips, the use of OP amps rather than discrete or custom types of FETs, poor quality casework that is feather-light and does not damp the internals properly, soldered-on inputs/outputs, vertical-chip capacitors that are computer-grade, rather than audio grade and therefore much cheaper to buy in bulk, the use of axial or radial capacitors rather than snap-in, the lack of ceramic saftey capacitors, no saftey resistors, and even the total absence of sacrificial fuses that blow in the event of a malfunction; to protect the inputs/outputs, reactive load (speakers, headphones), and the circuit itself. I could go on and on... lol
It is so easy to buy the latest DAC chip in bulk, slap it on a PCB, include a cheap crystal oscillator at 10 cents a piece, and have output. Therefore, the measurements are often not the total sum of parts inside the electronics, but the DAC chip at the engineering standard itself. And not all DAC chips are created equal. The easier it is to implement/ it can withstand all kinds of substandard parts tolerances and temperature variations/ the worse it will sound. Rather than have all parts when, which measured, do not vary wildly and will compliment eachother to create a high-performace unit.
Seems like you have a bit of difficulty reading between the lines or accepting a congruent argument at face value.
I enjoy responding to you and others...simply because it is entertaining to do so.
You said:
per mastering92: "A failed tech executive at Microsoft"
per bio: "During my time at Microsoft, as VP of Digital Media Division, I grew to manage a division of nearly 1000 engineers, testers, marketing and business development people."
Strength in numbers at a company means hardly anything. I know business owners who have run successful businesses with only 20 to 40 employees.
And of course a VP at Microsoft would manage a larger team! Microsoft is a HUGE company...That would be no different for anyone else who landed Amir's role before or after at Microsoft.
Failed - because WMA/WMP is freeware, no real audio editing software to speak of, the lowest layer of Windows Audio was already well established before Amir took sail of that boat, Zune, and others failed against the iPod. Today we have lots of DAPs that are better than the iPod. It's about innovation....and being able to get the attention of a larger audience.
"Why don't you invent your own speakers and sell them?"
Wow, what a compliment. I sure do have quite a bit of audio knowledge. But you know what? I'm not in competition with anyone; nor do I have grandiose narcissism like @amir_asr .
Judging from how many discussions were started by @kenjitabout speakers, perhaps he should give it a go first. Only because I am not qualified to do so. I can certainly do my best to help tune the final result as per your standard of sound quality to the masses, or even tell you if they're accurate / neutral / uncolored etc. Unlike folks at ASR, I know my limits and stay within them. I don't try to pretend to be something I'm not.
@kota1you must have very long arms. I don't think you will be taking the crown away from Amir any time soon. Big fish, very small pond. No need for the crown for me, I have my own Klippel to play with any time I want. Technically not my own, but close enough.
My post had nothing to do with that though. I was simply pointing out that the green curve is a predicted corrected curve, not the actual measured corrected curve. I am sure as the "king of all measurements" you knew that though.
You can have the best test equipment in the world, but if you don't use it properly you won't get an accurate measurement, like measuring a large dipole panel speaker at the wrong distance.
@kota1, we are in agreement about Amir's room. What a disaster. My ears are ringing just looking at it. I do respect those speakers though. There are some that ascribe to a view that we can adapt our hearing to complex rooms. Probably that is true, but also probably true only to a degree. I think that is an old view that is being rewritten as more become aware of what good room acoustics can do.
On another topic, after reading this thread, and a comment you made I think I can clarify what Amir was saying about your ARC room correction measurements. I don't know why he didn't just say it instead of being confrontational. In your Arc posts, you show the Red measurement curve, the Black target curve, and the Green corrected curve. I think the point Amir was making without saying it, was that the Green corrected curve is a predicted corrected curve. It is not a measured curve post correction. Arc shows you a prediction of what the curve may look like after correction. I think he was implying you thought that was the actual curve post correction, not a predicted curve post correction.
I got sucked into the rabbit hole and read far too much of this topic. I am torn between rolling on the floor laughing at the gymnastics some will do to discredit others, and feeling I need a shower to wash off the filth for the same reason. I do say @mastering92, you have quite the sense of humor,
per mastering92: "A failed tech executive at Microsoft"
per bio: "During my time at Microsoft, as VP of Digital Media Division, I grew to manage a division of nearly 1000 engineers, testers, marketing and business development people."
Hands up all the "failed" executives who have ever had a 1,000 people working under them. But that is getting away from audio. Before I respond, I can say that I personally, for professional reasons, find value in the work that ASR does. I can also say that there are many things about ASR, and more specifically the tone of the posters and the unearned for many of them, air of expertise they exude, that I do not like. I take what they do for what it is worth, predominantly competent measurements (at least for speakers, not all, but most). Attacking the equipment they use is not a great place to start if you want to win an argument. They are using the same, best in class, equipment that the better manufacturers would use.
I can't offer you a professional perspective on the impact of ASR on the high end consumer audio industry (though I will make some comments later), but I can make a comment on the impact of ASR on the professional market, and that is in general education. I am surprised by how many will make comments like "I read about that on ASR". For me, that makes my job easier. What about the consumer market. Well this topic is up to what, 10 pages, most of it an attempt to discredit a website that according to so many "does not matter"? How many more topics just like this would I find here, or posts sprinkled around many topics? That is a lot of head space for something that does not matter.
I'm in agreement with mceljo. I am a member of the American Society for Test Methodology and work in the chemical formulation discipline. Is a chemical that is 99.90% pure inferior to a 99.95% pure competitor that costs twice as much. Not usually. Without standardized test methods, test equipment, and multiple people doing the same testing (to minimize bias and error), meaningful comparisons between equipment are difficult to achieve. Marketing people love to claim cherry-picked specifications to try to get an edge for sales purposes. I'd like to see key reviewer get together and agree on how they are going to collaboratively test audio components - but that is not likely to happen. Then there is the subjective measurement/opinion ......
It’s disappointing that ASR, the primary site on the entire internet that focuses on the science of audio receives so much non science based criticism.
The very point of such sites is to try to steer debate away from personal opinion towards scientific facts, isn’t it?
Didn’t we get enough opinionated nonsense from a whole host of printed journals and magazines for decades and decades?
Isn’t a little more balance something we should welcome and not resent whilst we share our audio experiences with each other?
Amir now seems to taken over the mantle as the most attacked man in audio from the late Peter Aczel who was arguing many of the same things over 20 years ago.
What good points??! From @kenjit the serf of Amir ?
How we hear is based on science. Audio textbooks are based on science. Audio textbooks on the physics of sound is science. Measurements beyond what Amir does is science. Amplifier design and choosing the right kind of solder and design topology is a science. Furthermore, ASR is not science. Human hearing sensitivity is extraordinary...despite the fact that we may not be able to hear as well as moths!!
The "opinionated nonsense" you speak of is simply descriptive language. We humans require it in our everyday lives to communicate the differences between things. Just like a food critic, not being able to describe what we are hearing (tasting) leaves everything up for a senseless debate later on.
Amir is attacked because he does the same thing on every single last forum he's ever been on! Start pointless debates bent on arguments with no merit, disagree with others, tell others they are wrong, and then share faulty measurements that further prove his inability to understand "audio science." We see all the mistakes and it's rather painful - how we arrived at a set of measurements and the tech behind it is far more important than a standard set of basic measurements...
Look inside something like a Sabaj A10h. How much do you think it really cost them to build it?! Ask yourself...Since you believe in saving money and "uncertain times." I'm sorry, the 3rd world will delve in to even more poverty since they keep having 15 kids every 2 months. Impossible I know, but they keep making that happen. Welcome to a world of overpopulation....
In closing...all counter-evidence will be ignored on ASR and the user will be banned, almost immediately. Like I said before, ASR does not welcome 3rd party validation or testing....I think Amir should send his test gear back to Audio Precision as a donation...someone with real chops can use it at home!!
Anyway, for some of us it’s good to know that there are still people out there on the side of the consumer in these uncertain times of ever diminishing trust.
I trust the members here. When you have websites and self promoters tearing people down to promote themselves that isn't to help consumers.
Again you are contradicting yourself. First you said
ASR is powerless to influence the highest ranks of this industry; such as the top-most Studios, wealthy audiophiles, and audio dealers.
Then you say
A great disservice is being done to manufacturers of audio equipment.
It cant be both. Either ASR group has the capacity to change the industry or it is powerless. Which is it?
---
You feel that he is a threat to the industry because ignorance is bliss and you dont want to hear the truth. You are a typical audiophile.
I suggest you unplug your silver audio interconnects and throw them away as they are useless. I also suggest you have your TADS measured by ASR group.
---
You might be shocked at what he finds. You have been warned. Amir is a master of exposing the truth.
A lot of these extremely expensive toys in the hifi market turn out to have abysmal performance.
Who are you to get in the way of our work?
If you have any counterevidence stop complaining, join the ASR forums and post your evidence.
---
Audiophiles deserve the TRUTH and you have no right to interfere.
---------
Many good points raised here.
It’s disappointing that ASR, the primary site on the entire internet that focuses on the science of audio receives so much non science based criticism.
The very point of such sites is to try to steer debate away from personal opinion towards scientific facts, isn’t it?
Didn’t we get enough opinionated nonsense from a whole host of printed journals and magazines for decades and decades?
Isn’t a little more balance something we should welcome and not resent whilst we share our audio experiences with each other?
Amir now seems to taken over the mantle as the most attacked man in audio from the late Peter Aczel who was arguing many of the same things over 20 years ago.
Anyway, for some of us it’s good to know that there are still people out there on the side of the consumer in these uncertain times of ever diminishing trust.
Archimago’s Musings blogspot is another such site and long may they both continue.
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