Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

@mapman that was subtle… 😎

OK, let’s get back to basics then, soon as your post your system, the pics, the measurements we can discuss.

For what point? Gear shaming? Or some other strawman argument?

 

Maybe we should just stick to factual things?

For instance the highly linear Purifi motors that their drivers use have lower measured distortion.
And the Vandersteen drivers, and some of Accuton and other drivers, have cones that are more pistonic and don’t have breakup modes happening as easily.

Some may not like their sound, and may prefer more distortion if their ears like that better… but let’s not fool ourselves as some important things can be measured.

We cannot measure synergy, and we cannot easily measure bias. Those are two thing that have a huge impact on how good we perceive the system to be.

Whether a 110dB SINAD is better than a 120dB SINAD is able to be discerned is largely objective, and whether one likes distortion is largely subjective and also in a known objective thing that shows that people like it... they like the sound of some types of distortion.

There is no point in arguing about it or denying it… but it is not what most would call “higher fidelity”.

Lower fidelity make be preferred… OK… so what?

holmz , It was stated correctly that this is a thread about measurements. Why not post some to discuss? It is a starting point, not a destination, OK?

Yeah - it could be interesting, but it is a lot easier to measure gear than an in room system.

 

If you look at my system profile I posted the in room measurements. If you read the system description you will see links to my components as well as some specs for my active speakers.

I only see the before/after measurements and the paradigm active reference mentioned. Are they doing the EQ themselves? Or is that happening elsewhere in the chain?

 

This isn’t a contest, this is a chance to compare ideas and obviously no one is perfect.

Your room measurement were nice to see the other day.

 

 @fleschler is starting a build I would love to be able to do, did you check it out?

Just now, but only a thick, door and another shot… so far 2 pictures.

 

He is building a room from the ground up and he posts measurements of the room, great stuff. BTW, your system doesn’t load properly when I check your profile. There are some "banging" systems I can’t even imagine in the virtual systems area. It provides inspiration for me personally, I don’t know about anyone else.

So yes, some not so much.

 

It took NO time to tell the difference once all fiver or six (I forgot) of his Pangea power cables were replaced with GroverHuffman cables.   Furthermore, my pre-amp was substituted for his Audio Research SP-28 and walloped it.  He decided to change the input tubes (6NG/6H6) as suggested from another audio engineer friend and that resulted in sound very similar to my pre-amp.   THERE IS NO NEED TO MEASURE OR BLIND TEST OBVIOUS SONIC DIFFERENCES THAT ARE SUPERIOR. 

Actually that is exactly what (and why it) should/could be tested.
I have never seen a fraction of an iota of measured difference presented in the cables, so it would be very interesting to know that they could be picked out consistently, and then why/how they are improved... Like “What is the mechanism that is at play here?”

 

You don't get this so stay off the Audiogon site.  My friend is so happy, he can hardly contain his joy and like me, listens at night for 2 hours or more.

We have two hypothesis:

1. It is psychological
2. it is real
   1. And maybe it cannot be measured.
   2. and maybe it can be.

I am interested in # 1 and 2B.

… ditto for anti vibration footers as well.

holmz

As for checking out virtual systems there is a text box beneath each one with a link "read more" which expands it. The links I mentioned are embedded in the description of my system.

The FR is impressive.

Were there any time domain measurement like impulse or step function response? 

holmz +1 - time domain response has significant SQ impact.it also has to include small signal steps, scaling to max power level to check dynamics

Which dynamics @westcoastaudiophile ?

We are not talking about impulse response anymore are we?
Are we talking about compression?
or some stickiness and hysterysis in the drivers?

I lost lock and am not following.

Ahh @westcoastaudiophile what is the cause (what are the causes) of that?

As for the topic of "blind testing" it just isn’t necessary or practical. Look, I drop a component in the rack and let it break in for a few weeks. I take it out before the 30 day return period expires. If I can’t tell a difference send it back. If my face freezes in "grinrictus" I leave it in. The people who argue about blind testing are just using it as a crutch to win an argument.

Well even in medicine the use oof blind/double-blind testing is standard.
So the witch doctor can cure quite a bit.

these stories have almost practical way to repeat themselves. How would Flescher’s neighbour know whether one needs a power cable or IC or fuse? It becomes a mishmash or trail and error to arrive at some nirvana, and it is not even clear that the sound is ni fact changed or not. It reads more like a story.

If those cables seem to make a difference, then do we believe that they will measure electrically different or not?

@holmz You are correct. He could have needed better fuses or IC cables or something else.

The question was:

1. how did you know it needed the power cord?
2. What is happening with the power cord that makes it better?
3. Is there a way to measure it?
4. or does it not manifest itself in a measurement?

 

 

However, several other friends tried the Pangea power cable. No go. They disliked it compared to whatever they had been using. I know how great my power cables sound on several systems and the lack of returns on 1000s sold privately. So, I lent him the less expensive, earlier model, just one and he was dumbfounded. He replaced all the power cables. He was ecstatically happy. I’m happy for him and after he also changed his pre-amp input tubes, I am happy to listen to his audio system.

Good for him.

 

Yes, I’m only telling fables in your opinion. Not! You can believe it’s just another story and the sound could be the same. Not!

Let me rePhrase it.

“How can I tell the difference between your story and a fable?”
How would I know whether it is true and a real thing or a psychological thing, or even just a story.

 

I’ve related how poorly his system reproduced low frequencies with very jagged sound and now a smooth sound up and down the scale.

OK- Is there a plot like @kota1 showed where the frequency response went from jagged to smooth?

 

Voices are full and forward (instead of floating in the rear and thin sounding). I was using my CDs which I am very familiar with. If that earlier system from 2019 were mine after spending nearly $1/2 million, I also would have been very disappointed. It may not be perfect but after a few changes (10X more expensive power cables, 5X less expensive input tubes) his now high end sounding system is one I would be proud to own (except it is only CD based, uploaded to a computer and thumbdrives, going through a computer directory, through a Berkeley USB something or other to the DAC, then pre-amp then tri-amped multi-box speaker system). Too much work for me, I just plop the CD into the transport (or work a little more with LPs, 78s and R2R).

 

This is the essence of chat rooms and the internet. Of all the stuff you read how do you filter out what is relevant to you. In my opinion measurements of a product are a poor indicator to whether or not you will like it. A good indicator is customer reviews. Look at the opinions of people who bought it. I am NOT a believer in the blind test unless you have a panel of trained listeners and the proper setup. I am a BIG believer in the customer knowing if something is good or bad. If you want to know if product X walks the walk check Amazon, Crutchfield, Audio Advice, Sweetwater, Guitar Center, etc. for customer reviews.  Then check the forums and some professional reviews. Then audition it by leaving it in your system for a few weeks and see what happens when you take it out.

If there was one measurement that was universally best for everyone every manufacturer would produce their gear to fit that measurement in order to compete. I wish that were true but it just isn’t

You started out wanting measurements and a list of equipment, and now it is back to being that none of that matters, and it is all in the ears of the beholder.

@holmz

I felt there is no other way for you to get the info you were requesting about gear.

The measurements of the gear are different than the measurements of how the gear behaves in a room right?

That depends on if it is a signal measurement or a room measurement?
The former is an electrical thing for components, IC, speaker cables, amps.
The later is about fields, which are measurement of the resulting acoustic field… that combines the electrical signal with the speaker and the room.

To isolate and remove the room and speakers, makes it a bit easier to consider how each component, IC, cable etc is contributing or not to the overall picture.

The ICs will not really have a whole lot to do with the room, unless it is high inductance or capacitance and being use like a tone control.

If there is some other thing happening with crystal boundaries, or dielectric polarisation, then that too should show up as the signal being changed when comparing one IC with another.
When this cannot be shown, it leads me to believe that it may not be measurable.

 

I advocate getting the room right first and yes, in room measurements can indeed make the trial and error process a bit faster (and maybe even less expensive).

^This^ I can abide.

 

Now, to answer your question to the OP of how to separate the real deal from a fable I can’t tell you a single measurement that will get you 100% guaranteed satisfaction that your money was a good investment. If you know a better way than auditioning it in your own room I am open to trying it.

Well there is a null test, and ICs should respond well to that… and power cords should show that the signal coming out of say a power amp is either the same or changed if one can compare them. But this never seems to be shown. 

Speaker cables have inductance and capacitance, and the speakers have larger current demands than an IC. When a cable coma-any has specs that is great.
With, or without, that I can only assume that if I want the total inductance and capacitance to be low, then I should probably keep those cables on the short side.

I’ll likely stay with the IC mostly using Mogami/Neutrik  combo, and a few speaker cables of Magomi or cotton/.copper, and a few ICs using silver and cotton.

Most of my ICs are only as long as they need to be, and I would rather spend the money on electronics until such time as I can understand if the IC are different or not.
Better is good, but to begin with can we even know if they are different? 

 

I would not recommend just taking some expensive speakers that measure well and sticking them in a room with bare walls like some of our scientifically minded guests.

There are step function and impulse response measurements.
The FR can be largely corrected with DSP/EQ, and the impulse response somewhat corrected with Dirac.

Whether someone starts off with the room or speakers, they often often end up with both good speakers and a somewhat treated room.  More often than not the room work comes later… so there is no great dishonour in having speakers that measure better as a start.

It doesn’t matter too much how well treated a room is treated if the speakers have poor impulse response, poor frequency response, resonating boxes, being output limited by compression, and have high harmonic (IM, and Doppler) distortion… but the room treatment may help with their radiation pattern and remove some brightness from the FR.

 

For casual listening, fine. For critical listening and professional reviews maybe get some feedback from a knowledgeable third party like Anthony Grimani at www.sonitususa.com or Jeff Hedback at www.hdacosutics.net.

A lot of people start with a speaker in a room, and then go to DSP, Dirac, or RoomPerfect, and/or add treatments.

I guess this last part is what separates us?
Namely whether it is a for critical listening, or causally listening to music.
And then what are we critically listening for?

I often start out wanting to listen to music and get blocked by sibilance, and once the grating sibilance is gone, then I get happy again.
The recordings that are overly sibilant just end up staying in their sleeves most of the time.

You write like a know it all as well. Why don’t you take a leaf from the book of ASR member Matt Hooper/prof (here) and read his comments on subjective listening and opinion (even as posted on ASR). The link is on page 3 with his agreement with Audiogon members (eventually) at the bottom third of the page.

Sorry if I offended you @fleschler maybe I am a bit on the scale.

I am setting up the system in a new room (new house), so maybe these questions I have should be worded more like questions than as statements

It is not like I have access to people than can come by and look at the power cords and know what to change.
And I certainly do not know it all, like in terms of being able to identify the power cord as a solution to the bass being rippled.

holmz I just read you last response. I don’t know what being on the scale means but I appreciate your response that,,,

I should have said “on the spectrum”…

In reference to this:

He is high functioning slight autistic so he just let loose.

 

 

If you want to confer concerning your room acoustics and/or equipment, I’m open.

Thanks but I need to set up the gear in the new house, and am not really going to be modifying the room much.

Maybe some treatments, but that is after measurements and the equipment gets set up. It is 100 year old house, so we are working it in as best as we can… which is likely similar to what many do when they do not have a spare room or basement to retreat to.

I was able to go under one part of house and put in a rack to stack wine onto and empty boxes, so that is great, but one would not want to go down the ladder if they are mentally addled.

 

There are choices depending on your budget, which can make big differences in sound quality and those that I would avoid. Other than that, your music and hearing preferences should govern your choices.

Intelligible for the HT/TV is important.
Usually I find that when the room gets easy to hold a conversation, then it is getting good for music… at least if we ignore the bass frequency room modes… which could be EQ’ed out.

 

Fortunately, there are cable and tweaks which can be auditioned for 30 or 60 days.

I am in Australia, so it is not like it is easy to do a 30 or 60 day demos.
Hence I keep asking whether there are any measurements that provide some proof.

Also I am not overly sure I can hear great differences, or at least I have not so far.
Hence I stick ith Mogami and Neutrik, and some other things like cotton jacketed cables. And I might try some Kimbers.

 

Regardless of what Amir states to be facts, you can try Synergistic Research tweaks and GroverHuffman.com cables with full refunds.

Personally I’d likely avoid the GR gear.

 

I recommend them after you have your room and system set up. If you can, use better quality and/or larger gauge internal wall wiring, separate power breakers (subpanel is possible) and a grounding rod.

Being in Australia the power is 240v/50Hz.
So whatever needs to happen on a 15A breaker here, is like a 30A breaker on 110v.
(It is all cut in half current wise,)

 

You can always upgrade power outlets (better contact, materials). They don’t have to be top of the line.

I would likely start with some measurement of the voltage, and whether there is anything happening like a diode action (cross over distortion) from say corrosion.

Various LED lights sometimes make a difference with noise injected on the power. But I only have a slight amount of hum, which is measureable but I cannot hear it.
I think it might be magnetic field, but I need to do some testing to work it out.

I like using incandescent, but they are getting harder to come across, but are great in a low light room. IMO.

 

I can’t help you on streaming equipment or DSP use.

I mostly prefer the TT, but the RME DAC seems to do just fine, and I have no issues with it streaming. And the AVP does the EQ stuff on its own.

 

If you are building your listening room from scratch, I can suggest interior wall construction and finishes which should compliment your system rather than create acoustic problems (such as use of sheet rock, voids that require in room bass traps, etc).

Good luck on your new listening room and equipment!

Yeah I have built a decoupled wall for the Haus-Boss’s old councelling room, and am familiar with the door seal arraignments, green glue and multiple layers of sheet rock. That is more for isolation than listening, but I have a couple of studios and room construction.

This house however has horsehair and plaster on lathing strips, and is really much better than any Gyprock/Sheetrock that I have heard. An old house in SoCal was also plaster over lathingh strips that was really good too. Plaster to me seems like it sounds different and better. It is much stiffer and is a composite of sorts.

For instance people do not generally put their fist through a plaster wall, where as a child can pook a hole in a plasterboard wall just by being careless with a bicycle handlebar. In comparison one needs to be more like Mohammed Ali or Bruce Lee on a 3/4” thick plaster wall, a small girl pushing a pretty pink bicycle is just not going to do it.

Those people could train evangelicals.
Someone could get a Nobel prose if they could measure this stuff. 

I recommend Synergistic Research power outlets, including their earliest ones which can be had cheaply but I see that they don't match your Australian cabling plugs.  Second best would be hospital grade outlets which I used for 25 years in my prior home.  I installed $50 h.g. outlets in 1993 but the problem was corrosion even in the dry climate I lived in.

I would make my own power before I considered GR Research… that assumes that the power cord does anything helpful… which, as the title of thread suggests, we have no way of knowing:

Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

holmz Guess it is to nuanced, The Nobel Prize.

Must be a Down Under thing? 

@jerryg123 usually I blame the spell checker, but in this case the ‘o’ and the ‘i’ are adjacent to each other and I typed it in wrong… but it looked so good, it was not worth correction.

By the way it should be, “too nuanced”.

kota1 - thanks for posting cable study paper link!

that “ paper “ captures most of important IC parameters for passive circuits. unfortunately, audio system is more complex than that, and has sources and receivers built of active circuits. active circuits can add “audible” ringing to the signal, if cable parameters push circuit phase margin below targeted value. EMI/RF noise also can be audible, because not all sensitive amplifiers have enough high frequency noise rejection, to withstand modern days RF noise in our living spaces. depending on modulation technique, RF noise can be heard as additional “unexplained" noise affecting SQ. phono-pre could be a good example of sensitive active circuit usage, and therefore it is very hard to find good match between cartridge, cable, and phono-pre, to achieve excellent SQ. 

Does that RF show up with an o-scope?
Or in IM components?
Or in a raised noise floor?

Too much Roo Poop in your ears to hear a difference.

must me that the sound is too nuanced? I know a Nobel Prize is. 

Please try to stay on topic..,,. The topic is “manufacturers and measurements.”

It is not about marsupials, nor distribution of money made from dynamite sales.

 

or at least share with us what you’re drinking, in order to put the comments in context.

holmz RF EM noise in the house can be detected with RF analyzer

@westcoastaudiophile is there a link for those?  I assumed it is like an o-scope…

Would it make sense to determine if one had RF, or to measure using cable-A and cable-B to see if it was reduced?
Or do people just chuck in the cables.
(Some of the cable seem a bit costly for trail and error work.)

…

However, after listening to multiple cables of the same make, I rarely heard any difference.

….

#metoo 😎

I searched the Revel speaker site for measurements of any of their speakers and could not find any. Revels are universally lauded for their exceptional reviewed measurements. Lack of published manufacturer measurements is true for nearly every speaker manufacturer I’ve searched for on line, perhaps several hundred.

Here you go @fleschler

https://www.vandersteen.com/media/files/KENTO%20Step%20Response.pdf

I suppose that we can talk about whether that is important or not.

 

 

@holmz it was a reference to Revel not Vandys

^true^ but he said:

Lack of published manufacturer measurements is true for nearly every speaker manufacturer I’ve searched for on line, perhaps several hundred.

… so there is at least one that takes some pride in the measurements.

But 1 out of several hundred does say something.

That is true but not in the manner you are thinking. Gated measurements are used in Klippel for higher frequencies (usually above 1 kHz -- it is a user setting). Lower are generated using field separation giving you very high resolution down to 20 Hz (or even lower) -- something any reasonable sized anechoic chamber can’t do

1. The FR was shown through the research to comport with listener preference.
   1. In a bare 2 channel set up without any DSP (As in pure, or bare, or whatever we want to call it)… then FR is important.
   2. In a DSP system, FR loses importance.
2. Directivity preference varies, but the content of the in and off axis is important to the preference of liking it.
3. The actual time domain “polarity” was deemed to be not strongly statistically important. But some people seem to notice it.
4. As we know the waterfall shows the FR as well as cabinet ringing.
5. Then the distortion seems to be tolerated in low frequencies and in terms of HD, but not very tolerated with FM and IMD.
   1. Many people do not seem to care about driver distortions and linearity.

 

I’ll admit I like #3, and I like low distortion drivers (#5).
I cannot imagine a preference for high cabinet ringing and high distortion… but if the O/96 speakers are that, then I can see why people like them.

We may have a problem with the wrong measurements, or with maybe the frequency not extending as low as we would like… but IMO it is more of a problem that most speakers have no measurements. And also all the boutique power cords, IC, and speaker cables have no measurements or specs.

The ones that do have measurements are generally pretty well liked stuff, Mogami, Cardis and other bales and ICs. And Genelec, Dutch-n-Dutch, Bouchard, etc.

However; this thread either started off as an attack on specs, measurements, ASR, or you… it could have been some spreadsheet of what have measurements, and how well the gear is liked to see if there are any correlations… But alas, it is not that.

well… you and I are sticking to the “manufacturers and why they don’t post measurements”.
 

 

I am not a shill for any company. 

^Agree^, I just did not want it perceived as being a shill.

 

Companies don't need anechoic chambers.  They can simply rent space in one or get Klippel to measure it for them.  The cost is less than $2,000 for a speaker.  If a company can't afford to do this, or can't be bothered, it is not going to get my support.  It is one thing for a DIY to not afford such fees, it is entirely different matter for a major company.

That is true for R&D maybe. But they might need some chamber or way to maintain QA.

 

Note also that we are not not just looking for a few simple measurements.  We want full CEA-2034 plus distortion measurements.  A few gated measurements are not going to do it.

Agree.
 

holmz 

… so there is at least one that takes some pride in the measurements.

Sadly those measurements are gated/in-room and as such, have no low frequency resolution to speak of. 

Ok - many people have read the Toole and Olive… While FR is important, it can be corrected with a DSP, but time domain response is not so easy.
Radiation pattern is also not correctable after the fact.  

 

Notice how the X axis starts at 700 Hz.  Things like cabinet/port resonances are just not seen with that kind of measurement  I am also pretty sure the response above that region is also smoothed and is not raw. 

 

They are not ported.

If you look at the waterfall along side the impedance plots, there are not hiccups indicating resonances.

I suppose we can bitch about it, but the 1 out of a few hundred should not be whom should attracts the bitching. It should be Revel or or the other “few hundred”.

 

For a company their size, they should get proper anechoic measurements for their speakers

B.S. @amir_asr 
There is no dishonour in gated measurements… I think even Klipple uses gated measurements.

Do not make out like only Harmon and JBL have a chamber, That could be perceived as being a shill to your old people. 

@fleschler original post may have been taking more of a dig at you than a serious question about manufactures supplying information, but I am trying to stick to the question without adding in his intent.

Is anyone surprised that @amir_asr is unwilling/unable to post his own system? It is curious.

You are like a broken record.

Don't you mean "you people"?

Not everything living under a bridge are considered people.

This thread is like a group therpy session for 4th graders.

When a product shows nothing to back up its claims, I am pretty sure that it is make believe.

 

And don’t forget to bake the cables.

Wow, a lot's been going on since I've been on.  @holmz  Fantastic measurements of the the Kento Carbon speaker which received glowing reviews.  $40K is near my max to spend on speakers.  I've got to hear them.  Thanks!

@fleschler Not everyone cares about time and phase, so if you dislike them, then you are well ahead of the game as you can likely scratch off Dunlavy, Theil, and few others with a similar design ethos.

We could all pause and take a good look at ourselves occasionally.
 

One could argue that sticking to the thread topic is not trolling.
If you want to try that sometime, then I am sure few would complain… @jerryg123 

… then you can change your moniker to jerry1234.

Thanks @axo1989 I’ll do that.

@holmz "And it does not matter what every member of the audience is hearing..."

If you’re a member of the audience, it certainly does! It matters to oneself.

Ultimately, it does not matter what every measurement is telling me, if it doesn’t sound great to me, with my ears, in my room, to my taste

@fleschler I try it again, but it seems I am not making the point simply enough.

If there is a singer, and people are listening to the singer, they are all listening to the same thing. Maybe those audience members not hear above 4 or 8kHz, or miss out on any low frequencies… whatever it is that they hear, if the same song was played back flat, where there is no difference between the real singer and the playback, so they would hear the same thing in playback as the live performance.

And… that applies to everyone in the audience.

I suppose that we can talk about the room that the performance is in not be uniform, and that at different locations there is an actual difference of sound… but let’s ignore that.

The audience may all hear differently, but they are hearing the same thing.
And if it is played back exactly the same then they should hear it as sounding the same, and we can quantify how accurate it is.

The glasses and laser surgery are more like room correction, to make the vision be the same. 

Whether you, or anyone else, prefers the tone controls adjusted is all fine and dandy… but brightening up the high frequencies by 10 or 20dB to account for hearing loss will result in the playback not being like the actual singer.
That actually live performance would then sound dull… which is fine if it is admitted that the playback is preferred over the live performance. But it is not the same as what was heard live.

 

And similarly; when people look at a Van Gogh painting, whether they see in black and white, or blurry, they are looking at the same painting. If the colours are shifted in hue, then it may look better, but it is a different rendition of the painting.

We should not confuse what is technically correct with preference. Whether we like it correct or not, is indeed taste and preference.

The tread topic was about spec and measurements, and how almost none of the manufacturers provide that data. Now it almost seems like you do not care about that data, and do not want to see it, as it doesn’t matter anyhow and you only want to get what aligns with your preference. Which seems to ignore, or imply, that you preference cannot correlate with any measurements or specs… and that it is a hopeless endeavour to even try?

 

The idea of manufacturers specs and measurements is that if one wants it correct, then they have an easy way to find that gear. And if they want it to have the BBC sound, then it makes it easy to identify the gear that has that particular sound.

Without measurements and specs, we have only the option to fly or drive around and find shops that carry that gear, and listen to them all… to figure out if it aligns with our preference or not.
Once we have heard a few systems and decide we like (for instance) the BBC sound, then we can pretty quickly go from hundreds of speakers choices, down to dozens… and it becomes a more tractable problem of listening to only those.

 

Personally I prefer more neutral speakers and lower distortion.
I can just throw a tube preamp in to tailor it to my preference, and then I only have spice in the preamp, and not scattered throughout the system. Or I can use a DSP.

We can have the specs and measurement and ignore them, but we cannot choose to look at the specs and measurements if they do not exist, or are hidden. I would rather have the choice of them existing and what the manufacturer is making to be advertised truthfully and transparently. I can always choose to ignore it if I want to.

If I don’t get your point, then maybe I have too low an IQ and you’re just a genius.

@fleschler I doubt it, but I am smart enough not to argue it.

 

I suspect that your system and mine are more similar than dissimilar, in equipment choice. And that they likely sound pretty similar. Your’s is probably better, and mine is good enough for me.

There is some correlation with “pleasurably better” and “measures better.” Your cartridge sounds like it might be an example of that.

 

Again, you have not read my postings.

I read the last post, where you quoted me out of a whole different thread, and how everyone hears differently.
I think that that response should have gone in that thread, but here we are.

You likely want your system to sound both like the real singer in a live performance, and also sound good to you. Maybe you twist a tone control, I dunno, but I suspect I would not find it too edgy or nor too dull.

And I suspect if I twisted your tone controls around so that it sounded bad to me, that our hearing is not so different that it would sound good to you.
Yeah - It’s possible, but I doubt it.

If you are interested, you can see measurements in his listening room (with and without room EQ via the Lyngdorf)

I have not used room EQ for 2 channel yet, but on the AVP it works well.

Maybe I can set up the AVP to output another “zone” as 2 channel with room correction… like a 2.2.0 setup?

But I sort of like a bare 2 channel set up, and would need to try to see if it is good.

I was aiming for sympathetic humour, not trying to insult you, sorry if it misfired.

yeah @axo1989 I wasn’t sure if it was humour or an insult, so I picked up a travel book at the newsagent. 😎

I do a bit of mentoring for workmates, and they are pretty skilled, but occasionally they like a pointer. That is about as close to teaching as I get.

I suspect that some of the posters here have made retirement or alcoholism a real thing for their teachers.

I've heard $15+K cartridges and they did sound great with my hot stampers.  They don't typically sound as good with my lesser pressings, mono LPs, etc.  That is why I chose to step down to a Dynavector 20X2L.  One friend who is an LP only expert who is seen all over the Southwest at shows selling high end jazz as well as rock and classical agreed that his Dynavector 20X2H played more LPs better than his current Dynavector XX2L.  When the latter wears out, he will return the former.  Three other friends with 3,500 to 8,000 LPs also use the same cartridge, one stepping down from the Dynavector D3.  The 20X2 sounds great on so many LPs.  

@fleschler it would be neat if we had a way to avoid the first $15k cartridge and just go straight to the better one - which is also cheaper… sometimes cost is not the best metric.

holmz I agree. The $15K cartridge sounded great in a $1+ million system (Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement on a Kronos top turntable). Using my LPs, it couldn’t sound more realistic and involving. Maybe it would have sounded great on my other old and/or poorly pressed LPs. I know from experience and friends who had more expensive cartridges that they preferred certain LPs over others. While sounding great on some, they sounded blah or irritating on others. My Benz Ruby3 did not like SUTs. It preferred playing through an active step up in a phono pre-amp. The Dynavector loves my Zesto Allesso SUT.

I can only imagine what sort of systems many people have.
Luckily I am a simple fellow with simple tastes, so I can get by with average gear.

I did come close to getting a Micro Benz last year though (LPS). I have no idea what the ruby3 is, which probably means I cannot afford it 🙄

My cartridge test measured flat from 10Hz to 20Khz per the test sheet (unlike Lyras with their rising high end test measurements I've seen as well a heard).  

Where do the measurements for cartridges exist?
That seems like a place I would to peruse.

+1 @noske 

It’s funny as I attracted a 2 week ban there, but none here.

There is some bizarre tribalism around that parallels religion, politics, vaccines, etc…  But I guess it is all politics in the end.

 

In the words of Rodney King. “Why can’t we all just get along?”

@rcaguy book ordered.
Thanks