Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

@westcoastaudiophile +10

@rcaguy +1 I agree with you.  There is a lack of accurate test measurements by manufacturers.  There is an overabundance of purple prose.   Specs are often meaningless (when I see -10db bass frequency, I assume there is something suspect about the bass response).  That is why I started this forum.  I certainly would not want to purchase a cartridge not knowing it's operational characteristics and frequency response, then installing it, breaking it in, adjusting it's installation and find out it is a mismatch physically to my arm or pre-amp or sonically to my taste.  Tweaks and high end cables are the worst with no specs or measurements generally.

@holmz  The Ruby 3 was $3000 in 2005.  Today, if new, probably $4500-$5000.  Out of my price range (although I can afford it, I just can't tolerate owning such a delicate item that could be rendered worthless so easily).  Retailers were trying to convince me that the Umami Red $4000 cartridge would be perfect for me.  Maybe.  I made my choice after hearing many friends Dynavector 20XH and maybe half a dozen used at audio shows.  Never failed to impress me.  

@whipsaw Ask yourself, why is Amir bothering to come to this site?  To lecture us on right and wrong on deciding to purchase equipment?  To advertise the superiority of his knowledge over all of us (not me and certainly not my many friends in the industry, manufacturers, remastering engineers and even another very smart and wealthy electrical engineer).  I hate it when someone tells me that I can't determine gross differences in sound without blind testing. That it is all a bias I have (I don't care one way or the other whether it's new or used equipment, cheap or expensive).  I am a very learned listener and have heard over 1000 audio systems in my life.  If uninterested laymen can hear a difference, how much more so for a trained listener?   

When I was in colleges, 45+ years ago, people had me have their equipment repaired and would install them with the best sounding/matching cabling.  I remember one system with all tube Harmon Kardon gear and large Altec speakers.  I had them purchase a Harmon Kardon turntable, Dynavector cartridge and Fulton speaker cabling.  Boy, that was a nice sounding system.  I'm sure Amir would hate that system after he measured it, it's so full of distortion.  Sure, there wasn't much to set up a cartridge in that table, just VTF and VTA at the time.  Regardless, the elderly and wealthy couple loved it until they passed.  I make people happy listening to music.  I wouldn't trust Amir's opinion on sound, only his test measurements.  

@mikelavigne +100!

@petg60 There are high end product buyers based on specs alone.  Why don't high end manufacturers who are so proud of their products provide test measurements in addition to specs?  

From the ASR forum, I stated, unequivocally, that equipment should be heard in a system in a room to determine a purchase. Regardless of the test measurements. Test measurements in sound only get one so far (ASR/Amir’s golden standard). Hearing is the platinum standard (me). Everyone has different music preferences and hearing capabilities (the physical and the learned from none/novice to experienced/golden ears). Knowing that, even if the measurements are the same, there generally are sonic differences one can hear and prefer.

I prefer tube amplification and multi-driver dynamic speakers in my room and system. The equipment is not perfect as tubes incur higher distortion than solid state (generally) and multi-driver systems have their own problems such as time alignment, phase shifts and dynamic compression.

@kota1 knows this and amply contributed to the ASR forum. I choose/chose my equipment, cables, tweaks based on hearing them in my listening rooms, not because they measured well or at all.

However, the query remains as to why don’t manufacturers supply their own test measurements and depend on reviewers?

Knowing measurements of the equipment I own, borrowed or owned "may" have  helped eliminate some wrong choices in the past.

My audiophile friend who is also a car sales manager of many decades reads car test measurements and comparisons with ample scrutiny. He gave me an example today that in one review, one sports car had 600 horsepower and the other 490 horsepower yet in a race, the 490 always beat the 600. Why, well what was left out of the review was that the 490 car had one ton less weight than the 600. Could that have been the reason? Probably.

@carlsbad Apparently you haven’t read the Audio Science Review forum with over 1000 posts to date. Amir threw me off after the first two hours with maybe 50 to 100 ASR member comments, taking neutral statements out of context, perverting my comments and defaming me.

@kota1 Unfortunately, upselling is common. Like Mark Shifter who had me purchase the Dynavector XX1 after owning the 20X, Ruby and D2. It was a poor tracker, I couldn’t see the stylus easily and something else I didn’t like (a long time ago). Or selling me Audionic M33? speakers with an 81db efficiency low impedance being driven with Dynaco Mark3 monoblocks-big mistake (hey I was 25, I relied on the store owner and didn’t know the measurements-would have made my decision not to purchase them). Some sellers just didn’t know any better selling me expensive Magnan IC cables, OCOS (did work here) with Martin Logan Monolith IIIs when he was using high powered Audio Research amps and top of the line front end/pre-amp which he knew I didn’t have (I had a Classic 60 amp and SP14 pre-amp).

@lalitk Well, cartridge manufacturers generally do provide higher end cartridges (above $1000) with frequency response curves.  I remember even Grado's cheap cartridges did.   I use those measurements as I don't like rising high end cartridges (Lyra for example) and prefer flat responses (Dynavector for example).  Cartridge manufacturers maybe the best at providing test measurements and specs that will determine how well the product/cartridge mates with the tonearm and pre-amp.

@kota1 Yes, Audio Measurement Review where dealers can post their test measurements.  It's a start.

@carlsbad Yes, I was banned in less than 2 hours.  You can read about it on the Audio Science Review review on Audiogon.

@mitch2 The real problem are cables and tweaks.  Where are the electric and/or acoustic specifications (let alone measurements).   So much puffery and exaggerated promotion without a hint of specs or measurements, in general.

As to equipment, your examples of specs not conforming or relevant as measurements is also common.   So often power output at reduced impedances are lower and occasionally at 8 ohms lower than actual.  Impendence mismatches can be a problem.  I purchased Legacy Signature IIIs from a guy with a Boulder amp and some boutique tube (unknown) preamp.  They sounded quite awful which the seller admitted as the reason he was selling them.  I brought a Sherwood 7100 16 watt 1970s receiver.  It blew the seller away.   Great mid-fi sound, including decent bass.  He had already ordered other speakers so he let me buy the Sigs.  Legacy speakers post high efficiency but they have low impedances with occasional sharp phase angles.  While many decent 35 watt receivers can power them with good current/power supplies, other amps one would assume could power them (especially the bass) with 70 watts can't.  

I still think most manufacturers could do better.  Even the speaker company I want to buy my future speakers from has very limited specs (Von Schweikert).  

As I previously said, equipment must be matched to a system and in a room.   If it sounds best to you, that's fine.  ICs are the most common beta test that I have done in 25 years (about 90%, maybe 100 designs).  Fortunately, after all those trials, the manufacturer has had only three designs in 10 years.  Power cables and speaker cables appear to be easier to design with less than half a dozen each in the same period.  The ICs I use cost $750 a pair, about 15 times more than Mogami, so you're right about cost.  

@phusis Great discussion of speaker performance.  My Legacy speakers marketing targeted very low bass distortion.  Distortion numbers at frequency intervals at low and high SPL as well as bass=very indicative of a speaker's capability.  Speakers which have less good (even defective) measurements can still work well under certain circumstances (room, matching system, types of music).  I don't know their measurements but I find that I really enjoy listening to Maggies on voice and small combos but not for orchestral music, big band or heavy rock as a possible example (I've heard LRS to Tympanis to 20.1s over 35 years). 

As to measurements and reviews, all I get for cable and tweaks are subjective reviews.  Are there no good measurements/tests for them (I would suspect at least acoustic tests to view their effect on, frequency, dynamics, distortion and other acoustically testable phenomena)?  .  

Well those two cable manufacturers do publish their test measurements.   It's too bad that the Canare and Mogami tried in the past 10 years by friends (4X) said that were mediocre for playback, not bad just uninteresting. They purchased more expensive cable which they preferred the sound.  Too bad, another instance where test results don't translate into better sound for playback.  They sounded flat and uninteresting, not open sounding either.  However, for professional use in recording, they are probably ideal with a perfectly flat frequency response and interacts well with other pro gear.   Years ago I tried some pro cables (could have been Canare) and also found that dull and uninteresting.   Maybe cables designed for recording are not compatible with reproduction/listening back for enjoyment.   

I did not deride Mogami cable. If test measurements make it ideal for recording or mastering, that’s what pros should use. If it happens to work in a home system, that’s great too. I only reported what it sounded like in a few upper mid-fi and one high end system. My own experience had the same result with Canare cables.

High Fidelity (brand) cables (defunct) were so much worse than pro-cables. They actually made us cringe at the sound and wanted to leave the listening rooms we heard them in.

A very cheap yet good beginners IC is the original Monster Interlink 300. It is relatively neutral with a slightly plummy bass and modestly rolled off highs but is inoffensive. Decades ago, nearly all my friends used it. I tried it but my boutique cables are superior. Further iterations by Monster are bright/hard sounding. The designer made this one off cable for Monster than began his own line of high end cables.

Of course I understand economics.  It is feasible for me at my age and station to acquire more expensive (and in my opinion) better quality cabling.  You do the best you can.   

Back when I was in my teens and 20s, no one even spoke of boutique cabling.  I was not content with the sound of my system and kept changing speakers and amps.  Smog killed the rubber suspensions in my cartridges in the 70s and early 80s (in Los Angeles) so replacements were made prematurely every 3 years.   I also was married in 1981 and had additional concerns.  Then a critically ill wife for 11 years and a child.  Funds were tight until 1998.  

I did appraise two studios which used boutique cabling, among the other extraordinary studio construction (like my current listening room).  The other 14 appraised studios and comparable studios I inspected generally used pro cabling like Canare, Belden and some other names I've forgotten.  There were a lot of cables in the storage rooms.

@mitch2 When I look(ed) for components, the specs (hopefully honestly) told me data I could use to assemble synergy. After having owned inefficient speakers and 20 years of electrostats, i decided I preferred conventional multi-driver dynamic speakers. Amps to match the speakers and pre-amps to match the amps (Such as my 1990s Audio Research SP-14 and Classic 60-a great match). Cartridge specs to match the arm.

Unfortunately, there is a lack of information for cables and tweaks (usually none). Trial and error are the remaining methods. I don’t use blind tests as I have both Golden Ear friends who are also remastering engineers (with their own and different audio systems) and friends and family who come over and listen for hours. The untrained listeners have enjoyed music at my home for decades, regardless that I heard the problems with the reproduction as much as the good sound. As I have become a better listener, I also can point out subtle differences and evaluate them over time. I only want to make changes to my system if the change is dramatically better. I’ve dismissed probably 75% of subtle change equipment (mostly tweaks and cables), maybe more. I auditioned 11 footers for my pre-amp and isolation transformer (Bryston BIT20) as the two dealers asked for my opinion and sent them to me free. Only one was extraordinarily bad and I tried it under every piece of equipment (except my turntable) but always resulting in a lugubrious paced sound, certainly a black background as advertised, but dark and muddy (Magico Q Pods).

And why do high end/expensive tweaks and cables have to be packaged like jewelry? Why are some footers packaged in elephant foot proof padded cases (Q Pods for instance)? Is it just a vanity item for some (YES)! My Synergistic Research power outlets, fuses and HFTs come very simply packaged in foam in paper boxes. That’s all they require.

@coralkong  Really?  Or course!  That's why I tell non-audiophiles not to purchase expensive cables or tweaks because they won't hear a difference if the rest of their system is below mid-fi.   The reverse is true as well.  Imagine,  my neighbor's $1/2 million system and he was strangling the sound using Pangea power cables (he has high end speaker, ICs and digital cabling).  Once he replaced them with superior design and manufactured cables, he (and I) now enjoy great sound.  

Slightly different take: I chose not to upgrade my cartridge to a $4K Hana Umami Red despite it probably sounding great on my hot stampers but possibly not as great on the vast majority of my LPs  I'm using a Dynavector 20X2 L and a Zesto Allesso SUT $3.6K (paid 50%) which is great sounding for all my LPs.  I paid more for the SUT than the cartridge but I will never have to upgrade my SUT again.  

@amir_asr You are such a know it all.  Such a foolish person.   I don't why I answer except you are on Audiogon lecturing us.  

My neighbor and friend was ashamed of his system when I lent him ONE power cable for his amp.  He had the habit of changing gear on a regular basis, including a loss of $22,000 on a D'Agostino amp that he paid $46,000 for.  I heard it when I first moved in in 2019 and found his system so distant and thin sounding on my CDs that I told him I had never thought of those recordings sounding that way.  He came over to my house and heard my "lowly" system (he is also a gentleman and did not criticize my system either) and was astonished that the same recordings had so much color and dynamics.   He also thought other visitors were just being kind and wouldn't criticize the sound.  This is an electrical engineer with a net worth of around $40 million self-made in real estate, not a stupid person,  

It took NO time to tell the difference once all fiver or six (I forgot) of his Pangea power cables were replaced with GroverHuffman cables.   Furthermore, my pre-amp was substituted for his Audio Research SP-28 and walloped it.  He decided to change the input tubes (6NG/6H6) as suggested from another audio engineer friend and that resulted in sound very similar to my pre-amp.   THERE IS NO NEED TO MEASURE OR BLIND TEST OBVIOUS SONIC DIFFERENCES THAT ARE SUPERIOR.  You don't get this so stay off the Audiogon site.  My friend is so happy, he can hardly contain his joy and like me, listens at night for 2 hours or more.

You are the condescending person, not me.  I don't ridicule friends who just want to hear music, imperfectly or with really old equipment that may need maintenance (like old caps).  Many of my friends are musicians, singers, orchestral players and audio engineers.  I often praise friends telling them they made good choices years ago who have older Marantz, Fisher and Yamaha gear for their musical sound, tube and solid state.  

Mid-fi isn't a price, its an execution of audio fidelity.  There are so many great older mid-fi equipment pieces I've heard.  Even a lowly <$75 Sherwood 7100 receiver is mid-fi in my book.  Hook it up to a Legacy Signature III and enjoy beautiful sound.  Cabling can make a difference for mid-fi equipment.  

Saving people from foolishly spending 10X on cabling, etc. compared to their equipment, especially for less than mid-fi equipment is a mitzvah/a good deed.  I remember a friend 30 years ago who wanted to purchase a $3000 CD player to go with a Pioneer 1970s receiver and Onkyo speakers, hooked up with the cheapest RCA ICs and lamp cord.  What a mistake in spending money that would have been.  

AND finally, I 100% disagree with your assessment concerning cables and tweaks.  I say that I'm right.  Most manufacturers of quality audio equipment say that I am right.   They suggest and often urge customers to purchase complimentary equipment and cabling to extract the maximum from their equipment.  They often design special footers for their equipment, anti-vibration chassis, etc.  I've read an ASR forum where the members spent pages excoriating a member when he used an anti-vibration platform under his amps.  If it worked for his equipment, why not?  It may not work for others but maybe it did for his system.  

One of those best friends had worked part time a decade+ ago for a major audio high end retailer. He brought home a lot of equipment. He was generally dissatisfied. It is when he met my best friend (Golden Ear and remastering engineer) that he settled on his equipment which consists of a VPI Scout+/arm, Dynavector 20X2 H, McIntosh C20 (2nd version), RAM RM 9, Kyocera 310x and Von Schweikert VR35 export. He was still unhappy with his sound (this is in 2020). I proceeded to suggest changes which he gladly did. These included giving him a Black Synergistic Research power outlet, removing the cheater plug on his amp, replacing the XLO cable with GroverHuffman Empress cabling from 2016 for the CD player, pre-amp to amp and very low capacitance, all silver turntable cabling. He had a good quality turntable power cable and the other equipment have captive power cables. His shelves were wood and set on screw points on his stand. Two wobbled where the pre-amp and CD player stood. He replaced the screws and stuck blu-tack instead (his VPI sat on Aurios and a 2" thick concrete slab).

The result of my and his tinkering with cables, shelving and tweaks was utterly amazing. He is ecstatic with his system and although it is not high-end, it is oh so beautiful to listen to. His speakers permit great imaging and soundstaging nearly 90 degrees seated on side couches. He has excellent deep bass and full dynamic sound. Total current cost of his system is under $15K. (The VR35 export are superior to the VR33, using parts quality from the high end speaker line). He has returned the favor by introducing me to be-bop/post-bop jazz (he has the very expensive LPs) on CDs. My 50s-70s jazz collection has doubled by about 300+ in the past year (I have a sizable early jazz collection as well). Great performances and great sound. He purchased a large collection (55) of Mercury Living Presence classical CDs from hearing my complete collection.

This is where the enjoyment comes in and not in measuring equipment for my friends and myself. Give us some measurements so that we understand the limits and interactions of equipment, then listen for the rest. Cables and tweaks to date, require listening only without adequate (easy and quick) testing.

@westcoastaudiophile I don't know of any high end/expensive/boutique cable manufacturers who provide testing measurements of their cables.  I certainly don't know how the better sounding cables measure.  Similar to my prior occupation as a commercial real estate appraiser (not to be confused with residential appraisers), my exhaustive work involved both science (math, computer models, physical inspections, details, interviews) and art (interpretation of non-physical elements such as location, effects of details on the adjustments such as environmental issues, etc).  I provided reasons for all my adjustments, based on paired sales analysis and judgment calls (based on my experience and interviews).  

So it apparently is with cable manufacturing, a mixture of science and art.   I can't explain it.   I would hope that manufacturers would do a better job of it rather than puffery.  While most explain part of their cable construction, many don't, possibly due to proprietary construction limitations.   Even some of the most expensive cables have virtually no information (MasterBuilt, sound great in systems I've heard but I have no idea why).  

@kota1  and @coralkong  We obviously think alike.  There is a point of demarcation, especially for trained listeners, where we know what we are hearing and can over 30 days make a "sound" decision.  

I guess in the circle I run with, remastering engineers, musicians, audio equipment manufacturers and audiophile friends are too stupid and uneducated to know better than test and measure audio equipment to prove they have made the correct choice.  I don't think so.

@westcoastaudiophile My neighbor and friend did not have anyone criticize his system but he heard others and knew there was something missing.  His system had/has great ambient soundstaging, good tone color and dynamics.  Many of his recordings sounded listenable.  Others did not.  My system pointed out to him that his was missing consistency, just like my choice of a Dynavector 20X2 L cartridge, whereby all my LPs sound was elevated, or my digital system which makes so many of my mono recordings (especially jazz) sound as real as stereo.  His system was so inaccurate that when a bass was played, it had notes up and down the scale come forward and recede, a highly irregular frequency response.  Once the new power cables were installed, playing a bass was a gripping experience with no holes in the scale.  My best two friends visited him as well and the one with the Golden Ear hearing within five minutes discovered further anomalies such as a metal sculpture and an open fireplace on the sidewalls were disfiguring the sound acoustically.  We closed off the fireplace and removed the sculpture and the sound became more coherent.   My neighbor was very thankful for the help.  His other cabling is Kubala Sosna and high end Siltech which sounds just fine in his system.

@westcoastaudiophile No, I absolutely don’t believe that. After testing 100s of cables, I know for a fact on various systems, that the most expensive cables are often inferior (sounding). High Fidelity cables using large magnets in line is one of the worst examples just based on poor engineering (which I previously described one $1 million system owner who was dissatisfied as was I, until he changed from $105,000 in those cables to $3,500 in cables). I have no idea how the HF cables test/measure and I doubt anyone else does either.

You can view the non-proprietary construction of the GroverHuffman.com cables (older site, could use an update on materials) and his patent. His cables sell for  $300s to $900, not $1000s or $10,000s. He loses potential customers because they don’t have the cachet of expensive, name brand cables. He has more than enough business (handmade) with a world-wide following.

A $35 Chinese made cable is going to cut corners no matter how one looks at it. In the commercial appraisal business one can offer cheap, fast and good quality work but only two, not three. I provided good quality (great quality) as fast as possible. Not cheap.

@westcoastaudiophile +10 Even his own member Mr. Hooper/Prof chooses and inferior distortion unit A over superb measuring unit B component (CJ versus Benchmark L4) for it’s possibly easier to listen or enjoy in his system. Personally, I think that is quite an extreme example of difference in sound, like the difference between the COS Engineering DV1v and DV2v DACs. Different presentation of music. (The latter two probably measure nearly the same though, they are so similar in construction, just D1v has twice the parts power section and chip count).

I could tell a CJ pre-amp or amp from super clean measuring solid state units, but not .0001% versus .0005% distortion.  Not even .1% from .0005% or probably 1% at 1Khz from .0005% at 100 db.

@mitch2 After reading your post concerning the Benchmark L4, you mentioned having sought out pre-amps exceeding $10K cost.  I would recommend the Audio Research SP28 at $12K if you could afford it.  Only if you change the input tubes to 6N6 or 6H6 (cheap tubes).  Otherwise, you would be better off with the Benchmark if it sounds (or rather lack of sound) pleasing with your fuller/warmer sounding front end.  

As to tweaks, I say try it and if you like the sound results, keep it. Otherwise, return it. I tried many footers when a dealer continued to send them to me to evaluate. One was terrible under all equipment and about 8 others were more similar than different in effect.  None were inexpensive, ranging from $49 to $500 per footer, a broad range but cost more than most footers were in the 1980s (cones, silicone rings, springs, etc).  I think roller balls in captive devices were the next step, vibraplanes and then multi-density/elastomer type devices, almost all more expensive. 

It wasn't until I purchased the Townshend Seismic Sink that I decided to keep my VPI TNT VI in 2006.  It has terrible vibration isolation, much worse than the rubber block and spring footers of my VPI 19-4.  That Townshend is fantastic for turntable isolation (my equipment rack was not the problem, made of welded steel tubing filled with 50/50 shot and sand/dead sounding when struck).  
 

@holmz You are correct.  He could have needed better fuses or IC cables or something else.  However, several other friends tried the Pangea power cable. No go.  They disliked it compared to whatever they had been using.  I know how great my power cables sound on several systems and the lack of returns on 1000s sold privately.  So, I lent him the less expensive, earlier model, just one and he was dumbfounded.  He replaced all the power cables.  He was ecstatically happy.  I'm happy for him and after he also changed his pre-amp input tubes, I am happy to listen to his audio system.  

Yes, I'm only telling fables in your opinion.  Not!  You can believe it's just another story and the sound could be the same.  Not!  I've related how poorly his system reproduced low frequencies with very jagged sound and now a smooth sound up and down the scale.  Voices are full and forward (instead of floating in the rear and thin sounding).  I was using my CDs which I am very familiar with.  If that earlier system from 2019 were mine after spending nearly $1/2 million, I also would have been very disappointed.  It may not be perfect but after a few changes (10X more expensive power cables, 5X less expensive input tubes) his now high end sounding system is one I would be proud to own (except it is only CD based, uploaded to a computer and thumbdrives, going through a computer directory, through a Berkeley USB something or other to the DAC, then pre-amp then tri-amped multi-box speaker system).  Too much work for me, I just plop the CD into the transport (or work a little more with LPs, 78s and R2R).  

The review of the Belden (Blue Jeans) Iconoclast XLR cable measurements appeared about the same to me as the Canare, the difference was the extreme price difference. The Iconoclast designer indicates that it should sound different due to construction matters affecting other electrical properties (such as timing). I cannot say that it is or isn’t inferior but it is noteworthy that it electrically measured in specific tests similar. If I were given it to test, I would also listen to it and to the Canare in a high quality audio system. If there is no difference, then I would choose the Canare for that system. if there is a difference, a significant one, then the tests were incomplete/inadequate. The Belden could sound worse though. Different results in other systems are also possible. If this listening comparison occurs in many systems with similar resuls, then the testing was probably adequate. My problem is that manufacturers of most cables do not provide tested measurements.

I have not heard Belden Iconoclast cables in any system. I didn’t know that they made a high end cable. When I went to their site, the cable components do not appear to vary much from more common, less expensive cables, including those made in China by Audioquest and others. Not even close to the high end cables I’ve heard. Harmonic Technology and XLO also made cables of similar complexity. The speaker cable components were even simpler. After viewing the Cardas video on cable assembly (and lack of testing), I have great reservations concerning expensive cables as well. Maybe it’s luck for the audiophile who finds a cable manufacturer who designs and assembles higher end or more costly cables that transmit sound better than inexpensive plain jane well measured cables. I’m just glad that I found a cable manufacturer whose cables do make a positive difference for nearly every system they are placed in.

Yes, go ahead and measure my Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Euphoria SPDIF digital cable.  I would pay $25 to find out how it measures.  But I'm not sending it to you, you'll have to acquire one on loan from a retailer, SR or someone else using it and I will pay for the results. 

Quick post answer (I haven’t read them all yet). @holmz

1. I didn’t know that he needed a new power cord but upon seeing what he was using, knowing friends negative experience and knowing my own experience with this particular high end cable, I suggested it. He didn’t believe in it as an electrical engineer but did a 180 after he heard it for himself.

2. As to the ragged frequency response so obvious in the bass, I had two friends accompany me pre-power cable change and the Golden Ear remastering engineer friend blurted out that it sounds terrible. He is high functioning slight autistic so he just let loose. We heard as well but didn’t know why with such great gear. Anyone could hear that the bass was not linear, but ragged going up and down the scale. It was a total mess.

You write like a know it all as well. Why don’t you take a leaf from the book of ASR member Matt Hooper/prof (here) and read his comments on subjective listening and opinion (even as posted on ASR). The link is on page 3 with his agreement with Audiogon members (eventually) at the bottom third of the page.

@coralkong +10

Your post perfectly exemplified my feelings.  Great post!

@holmz I just read you last response. I don’t know what being on the scale means but I appreciate your response that you should have phrased your statements more as questions. I spent a fortune (12% of my home price) to build my final listening room in my new home in 2019 and would not move in until it was completed (five months). I don’t use DSP. I have an excellent system with relatively inexpensive speakers. My primary acoustic tweak is the two pair of Shakti Hallographs. Unfortunately, my speakers by themselves, do not meet my imaging and soundstage expectations but I bought them to replace electrostats (Legacy Focus replaced Martin Logan Monolith IIIs). My Signature IIIs in the 2nd system maintain superior open sound due to the smart rear firing tweeter (otherwise the speakers are similar). The Focus’ sounds great in my costly listening room ($150K).

If you want to confer concerning your room acoustics and/or equipment, I'm open.  There are choices depending on your budget, which can make big differences in sound quality and those that I would avoid.  Other than that, your music and hearing preferences should govern your choices. 

Fortunately, there are cable and tweaks which can be auditioned for 30 or 60 days.  Regardless of what Amir states to be facts, you can try Synergistic Research tweaks and GroverHuffman.com cables with full refunds.  I recommend them after you have your room and system set up.  If you can, use better quality and/or larger gauge internal wall wiring, separate power breakers (subpanel is possible) and a grounding rod.  You can always upgrade power outlets (better contact, materials).  They don't have to be top of the line.  I can't help you on streaming equipment or DSP use.  If you are building your listening room from scratch, I can suggest interior wall construction and finishes which should compliment your system rather than create acoustic problems (such as use of sheet rock, voids that require in room bass traps, etc).  

Good luck on your new listening room and equipment!

@laoman Of course he is saying that, he’s a know-it-all.
"Uneven bass response in every room and power cables can’t make a difference." What nonsense is that? My friend's room was not extraordinarily bad, it was good overall and his bass was terrible. Now it’s excellent. All it took was power cable replacements, just like quality caps, improved power supply (that’s what the power cables did), et.al. I have been corresponding with another Audiogon member who has experience with Amir. Because of his relationships with local friends who are members of ASR, he doesn’t want to post his interaction. He is a many decade, major audio equipment designer for multiple companies, now working for Intel. He asked Amir to test a piece of equipment and asked him about the type of measurements. He let me know that Amir could not properly test it and had inferior/limited test gear whereas he had worked at audio manufacturers who have $2+ million test equipment. He decided not to let Amir do the testing and not join ASR’s forum (the word science is a misnomer in the name).

Amir-"A power cord will do absolutely nothing for this as this effect"-(irregular bass response in a room). RIDICULOUS. When a horribly irregular response becomes a perfectly regular response TO THE EAR when listening to it by changing the power cables, there IS an electrical change that caused it and it is not imaginary. Well the changed response may not measure perfect because of the room, it sounds perfect or nearly perfect. Pre-change in the particular cheap power cables, the sound was totally unacceptable and would measure terrible. As music lovers and not interested in proving the OBVIOUS, there is no need to test or measure the difference.

@kota1 Wow, great video!!!  Equating Water delivery to Electrical Power delivery.  Exactly correct.  

@holmz  I can see you have a bag of problems trying to maximize the quality of your listening room.   Your walls are superior to typical drywall.  You have to work within your older home (some of my rental homes date back to 1914 and the 1940s, plaster walls).  I remember my 1886 group of 4 homes which also had horsehair and plaster walls, full measurement redwood beams and studs.  The 1971 earthquake got them, they probably sounded good for audio. 

In my prior home, I built it with 5/8" soundboard used for studios separated by insulation and then 5/8" X drywall (no one's going to punch a hole through).  It was on 6" 3000 psi steel reinforced slab with 2 X 8 walls, staggered 2 X 6 studs every 8" and 2' concrete footings-still very inferior to my current room.  If found florescent lighting to be much noisier than LED but incandescent in California is still available. 

I have my voice lessons by zoom in my new listening room.  Vice versa, if it's great for music it is probably great for speech/singing.  Green glue reportedly doesn't do much but sealing all joints with spray flexseal worked for me. 

I recommend Synergistic Research power outlets, including their earliest ones which can be had cheaply but I see that they don't match your Australian cabling plugs.  Second best would be hospital grade outlets which I used for 25 years in my prior home.  I installed $50 h.g. outlets in 1993 but the problem was corrosion even in the dry climate I lived in.   

I wish you good luck in putting together your video/audio room with the constraints you have.  It can be daunting (my "slightly" autistic best friend moved 5 years ago after 30+ years on a slab house to a mobile home-oh boy, he has vibration/acoustic  problems).   

I know nothing about GR Research and never heard of the company. 

I cannot recommend GroverHuffman or SR power cables to you because they don't come with Australian style angled three prong plugs.  

I could have chosen a CD player instead of separates if I could have heard them.  I live in Los Angeles area yet could not listen for example to the highly regarded Luxman D-03x player in my home.  I read that many Luxman owners sold/traded in their more expensive older players for it.  The three dealers within 150 miles told me I could hear it at their store only or purchase it.   Retail it's $4000.   I just didn't want to shell out that much.  I noticed a few nearly new units sold for $2800.  I didn't want to lose at least $1600 (w/tax) on a new unit just to try it.   Another dealer of a $14,000 VAC IQ 200 amp would let me try it for a $1,000 fee, included in the sale price if I purchased it.  Percentage-wise, that was fair, especially since it is a much more expensive, heavy (100+lbs shipped), delicate unit (tubed) and included insured shipping cost to me.   I've gotten to the point that I want to check out equipment in my room with my system before purchasing unless it is inexpensive.  After nearly a dozen units, I finally found a great sounding transport so I lost interest in purchasing an all in one player.  

@kota1 Thank you for the proof that cabling differences in an audio system can be discerned by average listeners with no special experience in music or audio.  How much more likely is it that trained musicians and recording/remastering engineers like my friends and I will be able to hear a difference, especially if that difference is extremely significant?  (Rhetorical) .  

Amir and most of ASR "members" deny this is a valid statement despite the scientific (blind testing even) paper proving this to be true.  
 

@kota1  Yes, that is the sad situation.  Possibly 100,000s of audio enthusiasts believe the same way although some  may not have adequate resolving systems to distinguish one cable from another (or other mismatched equipment problems, room problems).

I had to "prove" to my neighbor that his Pangea power cables were ruining his potentially high end sound.  I did not say I was certain that was the cure for his extremely ragged frequency bass response and his other sonic ailments, but he was open to it and it worked with just one cable to his amp (times six cables=he has a high end "sounding" system now).  Totally flummoxed (and now ecstatic) for a former electrical engineer who had believed the opposite-power cables don't matter.  

Anytime someone says where's the scientific proof that all cables sound the same, I'll send them your article.  

Yes, I mentioned many of those manufacturer specs which gives adequate information to mate equipment. However, cartridge frequency response test measurements are important to those who can easily ascertain the sound based on variance(s) from flat frequency responses.   A Koetsu sound envelope is easily discerned from a Lyra and both from a Dynavector based on the test grid.  

This forum is directed more to the need for specs and measurements of cables and tweaks which are rare among high end products. Commonly used professional gear generally have in depth and ample specs based on manufacturer test measurements.

As a beta tester for GroverHuffman cables, we have tried half a dozen Furutech A/C & IEC plugs over several decades.  We found that the more expensive ends tended to be brighter sounder with higher resolution and the lower end plugs maintain more body.  After trying many plugs from other companies, Grover found a Taiwan all copper plug that had good grip, excellent build qualities, a neutral sound resulting in great body and adequately high resolution to use with his power cables.  They cost less but sound (or lack of sound) great. 

He's baaaack to instill his great knowledge over us.  I guess business is slow or he feels compelled to save his site (for us, against us, who knows)?   

@amir_asr Please do not bother the cable manufacturer.  We don't care how much air is injected into your system (who knows what that is as @kota asks) or how long the burn in is (about 24 hours) for your system.   You must be busy answering every forum where ASR is mentioned.  Too bad.

Air, air, air. I have no idea what this guy means by more air, pumping air into a system. For a scientist, this sounds dumb.  What's in this guys' system-squipment unknown (insufficient air).

Lack of air can be noticeable where instruments and voices lack any ambiance which is recorded naturally (so many recordings use plate, digital or room reverb to simulate "air)." So, if a recording sounds flat, lacking in depth, dimensionality, and/or soundstage, it maybe lacking in "air."

My friend does not measure each cable. (Neither do most high end cable manufacturers). That is a flaw in his construction whereby there can be variances in each cable. However, after listening to multiple cables of the same make, I rarely heard any difference. The primary difference in power cables were the A/C plugs and IECs. Power cables are the least returned cable he manufactures (he said none).

@millercarbon That's great.  +1

@millercarbon I certainly agree with you but unfortunately, the highness of all things audio through measurement declares we are mislead, foolish and wasteful of our money.  A few others declared experts in mastering and sound reproduction as well as myself and friends as incompetent in discerning gross differences in sound and whether the sound is better or worse.  Hence, this site debunking the measurements uber all (well, primarily the ASR/Amir site) without the testing and measuring of the differences for audiophiles and music lovers.  If you read my previously posts, you'll know that I consider some measurements fundamental in matching equipment (speakers to amps, amps to pre-amps and cartridges to arms for example).  As to cables and tweaks, it becomes more of a listeners preference and not "snake oil."  Seasoned and expert listeners can easily discern better, worse and subtle/slight differences and each may have a preferential sound.  I have two friends with contrary opinions, one prefers and upfront, detailed (brighter) sound and another prefers a laid back, warm and fullsome sound.  Neither of them are wrong in their preference.  Neither of the approaches necessary denote that the equipment is faulty or measures significantly differently.  It's a combination of equipment in a system in a particular room/acoustics which determines the sound combined with the other elements such as power source, humidity, temperature, cabling and perhaps tweaks to create the sound the person prefers.  It is not easy to do.  That is why audio shows and audio salons strive to combine components which work together and present a unified sound, one type or another.  

I have to repost this from Pleasurably better, not measurably better forum as it's a hoot.  @chmaiwald wrote: 

This chase for neutrality (or accuracy or however you want to call it) makes me wonder. Audio setups with a strong sonic signature aside, it‘s like investing so much in finding something that has least personality. From the top of my hat I can‘t think of any hobby or whatever gives you pleasure where least personality is something widely accepted as the ultimate goal.

“I went out dining, and let me tell you, that casserole was so accurate. I loved its linearity. I measured it.“

I‘m joking of course, but I think there‘s something to it. 

I responded with:  Great!  Food comparison.  McDonald's burgers measure better than any other fast food burger for consistency.   Despite that, I only eat Angus ground sirloin burgers at Le Petit French restaurant because they taste better to me.  Amir's answer-Le Petit's burgers are too expensive so I am throwing away money when I could have purchased half a dozen McDonald's.  

Wow, a lot's been going on since I've been on.  @holmz  Fantastic measurements of the the Kento Carbon speaker which received glowing reviews.  $40K is near my max to spend on speakers.  I've got to hear them.  Thanks!

As to absolutes on interconnect cable design.  During the past several decades, GroverHuffman cables has removed metal casings and replaced them with high quality plastic casings with excellent contact areas for soldering.  No ferrites ever used.  His speaker wire is not limited by short lengths.  I am using his 6' cables on my video and second audio system and 16' (former home-30') lengths on the main system.  The cables are not test measured for these aspects.  They just sound better.  There is nothing wrong with using multiple ears (now 1000's of sales) to confirm the results of the advancements in his cabling.  

I have added my main listening room components and front and back walls of that room. I have a small amount of reverb, corner echo which the center cloth absorber eliminated. My room isn’t as near perfect like the two @Kota 1 examples show but it’s pretty close.  I feel sorry for Mike for letting Amir in.  In all of the systems I've heard, no one wanted to give me measurements of their room/system/performance and I didn't ask them either.  No one cares, only Amir/ASR members.  Mike is too nice.  

Amir is so full of it... I tried six digital cables and they all sounded very different. Not just to me, but to five other listeners, two golden ear friends. My wife who is not an audiophile but has a very keen sense of sound gave me her comments. The SR Atmosphere X Euphoria was the obviously best cable with no apparent colorations/neutral sounding, bested or equaled all other cables in every sonic aspect. Well worth the money/$1500. However, Grover Huffman’s very inexpensive digital cables $200? are quite good and came in second, mostly lacking in depth, it’s forward sounding. For $10, Monster Cable’s digital cable was rather bland but neutral, lacking dynamics mostly, okay resolution and okay, not great ambiance/depth/width perseption.

@dustyb13 That’s is the opposite to @prof posted on the rebuttal site. He is arguing with other ASR members that listening isn’t meaningless despite measurement results. He is using/preferring an inferior measuring CJ pre-amp instead of a very superior measuring Benchmark pre-amp.

@millercarbon I have in wall activated carbon filtering paneling which effectively removed excess bass nodes in the room. It was designed for six 12" woofers in my current speakers (or future speakers). Excess and uneven bass response is never a problem in my room Slight corner treble echo/reverb is as well as coherence/focus that a simple cloth in a narrow strip on the front wall cures (pending a more aesthetically pleasing panel or covering). When you walk into my room, it is unlike an anechoic chamber but rather quiet and calm. Once voice/music is heard, it is evenly transmitted and a touch on the live side, like a good performance hall. All of those absorption panels on the side walls and ceiling were designed to dampen the reflectivity of the cherry plywood finish. After reading Amir’s comments on Mike Lavigne’s room, maybe my room does "sound" better.

@prof

People who believe in the results of everything from homeopathy, to new age healing crystals, to...name your unscientific belief...give anecdotes just like yours for their beliefs.

Everything from green pens on CDs, little brass bowls placed on walls, stickers and pebbles placed on components, have had such testimony!

Until you grasp the relevance of listener bias and it’s influence on our perception, your continued use of anecdotes to support technically dubious claims will continue to miss the point.

Okay, you 100% ignore my abilities to determine at least in the acoustic music realm, what sounds correct versus incorrect, better versus worse. Amir admited he has no comparable EXPERIENCE in the performing and recording in major concert venues (in Southern California, old and newer venues) as well as examining many recording studios for professional evaluation of their construction for appraisal purposes. I am not an expert although I have friends who are leaders in the remastering industry.  My "anecdotes" are based on my hearing abilities. These are NOT unscientific beliefs despite being unfounded on scientifically tested measured results. I’ve dismissed most tweaks I’ve tried or heard/experienced because of the lack of significant differences or no differences heard.  All your above named audio tweaks I've dismissed after trying them (green pens) or hearing them elsewhere, in and out of a room/system.  

I have repeatedly stated that everyone has their own listening bias. This does not negate relevant claims of differences heard. Audiogon is replete with anecdotes from contributing listening members. It does not mean everyone’s anecdotes are relevant.

I desire measurements as a starting point. I’ve mentioned why and how they can help avoid badly measuring/sounding equipment/cables/tweaks earlier. Without measurements, the next best thing is trial and error.

You admit that the better measuring equipment does not always provide the most enjoyment. I am old enough with sufficient audio experience to determine significant differences which can be explained in anecdotes. You don’t have to believe me. You can try them for yourself if given a 30 to 90 day trial period from many manufacturers.

@prof You are such an expert in your opinion denying the plausibility that I hear great differences and can make an informed opinion of my own.  I've heard/tried the green pen, I've heard magic stones and bells and surface treatments.  I could tell that there was a difference but to me, they were insignificant and so minor as to not warrant further study.  When I say there is a very significant difference, THERE IS!!!!!  Just like adding salt and tasting it, unless one has lost that ability.  That's why I have rejected so many tweaks as being INSIGNIFICANT to the enjoyment of music.  Blind ABX testing on these tweaks and I bet I couldn't identify the differences.  Change from six Pangea power cables to six Grover Huffman power cables in a high end/high cost system-OBVIOUSLY SUPERIOR!!!!!   Just like adding salt.  

Just like beating a dead horse here.  I've made mistakes, always with subtle changes, tweaks in particular in my prior home with a lesser quality room and system.