Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

Power Cable shootout (wear headphones)

@amir_asr 

That aside, was this whole thread a farce?  You actually don't want to see measurements for cables?  You were playing with us?

Are you here to throw more spitballs again? The guy that measures doesn't have any measurements about his own system? Embarrassing. If you are experiencing "technical difficulties" please post what they are and I am sure I can help, NP.

Could it be because nobody uses a component in isolation but in a "system" with a group of components making the measurements of the system, taken in context of the room they are used more important?

@fleschler , generally a dealer will be more than happy to provide and compare measurements if you ask and help you make a decision in the context of what you are trying to achieve, the size of your budget, your room, etc, both online dealers and brick and mortar. Some people feel dealers will just upsell you. With social media today they can’t survive for long if they make a bunch of customers unhappy and the good ones all know that. The bad ones don’t survive. 

If anyone has a contact with a manufacturer feel free to share this thread, maybe they can post?

@lalitk +1 on gathering info from dealers. Maybe someone here will start a a new site, "Audio Measurement Review" so we can make it more convenient. Too much banning at ASR to make that site very useful for your other suggestion.

You know the one "measurement" that consumers check frequently is online reviews. If a product is poorly engineered it gets one and two star reviews because it doesn’t perform, that is a metric that vendors pay attention to as well. The cable nazis lose their mind about cables they never tried and have been conditioned to hate. Yet when you see hundreds of people LOVE this or that brand of "expensive" cables it seems like it if it wasn’t well engineered that wouldn’t be the case. 

@waytoomuchstuff , I would add a third most important number,

3) Can I return my purchase after 30 days , no questions asked.

@crustycoot , yes, Carver amps are rightly in the audio "Valhalla" of the 10 Most Significant Amps of All Time according to TAS. I am happy to say, deservedly so:

@fleschler , re: cables I am using Mogami XLR in a 9.2.7 home theater with predominantly active speakers. The runs to my surrounds and surround height speakers are more than 10 feet. It works very well and I think to make it noticeably better would cost $$$$. With an interconnect I want transparency, with a power cord I want dynamics.  

@fleschler , re: specs for cables Mogami lists fairly extensive specs with each cable it sells:

https://mogamicable.com/category/products/W2319.php

Mogami Gold:

SPECIFICATIONS

Configuration
Part No.		W2319
Conductor	Details	12/0.18TA
	Size(mm²)	0.305mm² (#23AWG)
Insulation	Ov. Dia.(mm)	1.6Ø (0.063")
	Material	PE
	Color	Clear
Sub-Shield	Ov. Dia.(mm)	1.8Ø (0.071")
	Material	Conductive PVC (Carbon PVC)
	Color	Black
Main-Shield	Served-Shield	Approx. 38/0.16TA
Jacket	Ov. Dia.(mm)	5.0Ø (0.197")
	Material	PVC
	Color	Black
Roll Sizes		100m (328Ft)
Weight per 100m (328Ft) roll		3.5Kg

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ELECTRICAL & MECHANICAL CHARACTERISTICS

djones51, you described why I decided to audition Mogami cables. If they are used in the studios to record music I can at least capture that much fidelity. I also took a page from the pros by going with active speakers although I don't use pro monitors. I like JBL speakers a lot for the same reason, in my man cave, a lot of studios use JBL. 

However, studios use LONG runs of lots of cables. If you want recordings made with high end cables try Mapleshade Records, WOW, very good.

The measurement I focus on the most is my room using Audyssey, ARC or REW. 

@invalid +1

@fleschler , if I had budget I would use Mapleshade XLR's throughout the whole system but with roughly 11 active speakers and long runs for height channels and surrounds, not gonna happen.

OK, @amir_asr , this site has a virtual system page. Would you please attach a "virtual system" to your own profile? You can see how it has a list of components, a text box to describe your system, and then you can upload some pics, measurements, whatever. I am sincerely interested.

Thank you.

@amir_asr 

Otherwise, let's leave fantastical stories involving one's imagination out of a thread discussing measurements....

OK, let's get back to basics then, soon as your post your system, the pics, the measurements we can discuss. 

@holmz , It was stated correctly that this is a thread about measurements. Why not post some to discuss? It is a starting point, not a destination, OK?

If you look at my system profile I posted the in room measurements. If you read the system description you will see links to my components as well as some specs for my active speakers. This isn’t a contest, this is a chance to compare ideas and obviously no one is perfect. @fleschler is starting a build I would love to be able to do, did you check it out? He is building a room from the ground up and he posts measurements of the room, great stuff. BTW, your system doesn’t load properly when I check your profile. There are some "banging" systems I can’t even imagine in the virtual systems area. It provides inspiration for me personally, I don’t know about anyone else.

@holmz

How to measure a room is a great topic for a new thread. All I would say is whatever software you use get a good calibrated mic. There is DSPeaker, miniDSP, TrueRTA, REW, and of course Audyysey, DIRAC and ARC.

If this is a rabbit hole you don’t want to dig you can have a calibrator do it remotely such as www.accucalav.com:

BTW- If your room is difficult and you want a top shelf reference Earl Geddes is a fantastic resource, check this out. The title is home theater but the principles appy to two channel as well. If you use a sub check page 236 for setup tips. Earl's PhD thesis was on bass management in small rooms:

Premium Home Theater Design and Construction

@holmz

As for checking out virtual systems there is a text box beneath each one with a link "read more" which expands it. The links I mentioned are embedded in the description of my system.

As for the topic of "blind testing" it just isn’t necessary or practical. Look, I drop a component in the rack and let it break in for a few weeks. I take it out before the 30 day return period expires. If I can’t tell a difference send it back. If my face freezes in "grinrictus" I leave it in. The people who argue about blind testing are just using it as a crutch to win an argument. Look, you need a panel of "trained listeners", you need the proper setup to switch quickly, and lets not go there. If you insist the best you can do IMO is buy a ABX Comapartor from Van Alstine but without a panel of trained listeners it still amounts to a "Pepsi Challenge" to my ears.

@fleschler +1, the most important measurement= listening satisfaction :)
In LEAN manufacturing they have a saying, what gets measured gets done. The problem is you can measure too much and get lost in the details. This is why I stick with the 80/20 rule. 20% of any system provides 80% of the results. I don't see the value of buying a DAC or a cable that measures so well that only a bat can hear the difference. If you get that 20% right the rest is an adventure toward a moving target which we can only aim at but never hit...perfection. 

@amir_asr , if you go back and look at my posts on ASR I felt the same way, you were flip and taking cheap shots. Now, I agree not to take shots about your listening skills, tin ears, etc. You need to agree not to take cheap shots about listening experiences of others, it is irksome both ways. I don't even want to bring up your toilet and fart jokes, ugh.

@amir_asr 

What should make you upset is folks paying orders of magnitude more, only to get a less performant audio device. 

This is basically just stuff you are making up. You have 0 data to prove that all cables sound the same just like you have 0 data to prove they all sound different.

Don't use money as an excuse like you have some magic spending formula for audio. I haven't seen your system, your room, your measurements, nada. I am sincerely interested in this, thanks.

@amir_asr

Maybe to you $100 is nothing but for others, it is good money they don’t want to throw out.

Why do you think its not worth it? You are stuck in a loop, if it costs more than (whatever cable you happen to use) so it must be bad.

No one can help you here, you are stuck (trapped) in a fog of stubbornness, why do you want to drag everyone else into the fog with you? Danny tried lifting you out, Darko certainly gave you good advice, yet here you go on and on advising everyone else what to do with THEIR money. Stop already with the complaining.

Are you going to finally reveal your system with pics and measurements in your profile? You already said this is a thread about measurements OK?

Amir, you are a professional with a high profile. You have my respect for what you built (even though I don't agree with you or your members on everything) Don't just show up and be so callous (or irksome), OK?

@laoman +1  He won't even post measurements and pics of his own system. No one will make fun of him here, this is a thread about measurements.

Did he just show up to throw up or is he going to throw down? 

@russ69

Let me rePhrase it.

“How can I tell the difference between your story and a fable?”
How would I know whether it is true and a real thing or a psychological thing, or even just a story.

This is the essence of chat rooms and the internet. Of all the stuff you read how do you filter out what is relevant to you. In my opinion measurements of a product are a poor indicator to whether or not you will like it. A good indicator is customer reviews. Look at the opinions of people who bought it. I am NOT a believer in the blind test unless you have a panel of trained listeners and the proper setup. I am a BIG believer in the customer knowing if something is good or bad. If you want to know if product X walks the walk check Amazon, Crutchfield, Audio Advice, Sweetwater, Guitar Center, etc. for customer reviews.  Then check the forums and some professional reviews. Then audition it by leaving it in your system for a few weeks and see what happens when you take it out.

If there was one measurement that was universally best for everyone every manufacturer would produce their gear to fit that measurement in order to compete. I wish that were true but it just isn’t.

@holmz

I felt there is no other way for you to get the info you were requesting about gear.

The measurements of the gear are different than the measurements of how the gear behaves in a room right?

I advocate getting the room right first and yes, in room measurements can indeed make the trial and error process a bit faster (and maybe even less expensive).

Now, to answer your question to the OP of how to separate the real deal from a fable I can’t tell you a single measurement that will get you 100% guaranteed satisfaction that your money was a good investment. If you know a better way than auditioning it in your own room I am open to trying it.

I would not recommend just taking some expensive speakers that measure well and sticking them in a room with bare walls like some of our scientifically minded guests. For casual listening, fine. For critical listening and professional reviews maybe get some feedback from a knowledgeable third party like Anthony Grimani at www.sonitususa.com or Jeff Hedback at www.hdacosutics.net.

@amir_asr

If you do pass such a test, repeat with capturing a video of it and we have something wonderful to discuss! If you can’t do that, then measurements, null tests, engineering analysis of what is going on, etc. are great help in getting to truth of the matter.

Don’t just show up here and start telling everyone what to do when you don’t lead by example. You have not posted your own system, pics and measurements in the virtual system page, as you say, "we will have something wonderful to discuss"
You are all about what the OP should do, let’s go and show him what you got, you gonna walk or talk? I promise to make no disparaging remarks, just try to be helpful, please do same.

Is anyone beside me surprised that someone who is an expert on measurements either doesn't have or won't post his own room with his own measurements in the virtual system area, in a thread on measurements????

This video about power cords is well worth a watch too:

@russ69 , thank you for your thoughtful and articulate response, What did you think of the idea of checking customer reviews? I use Mogami cables and we both seem to like them. I personally found that attention to power was a good idea but totally subject to your grid and the wiring in your home. I don’t have dedicated circuits but try to work around it as best I can.

As for speaker/dsp/room I like the idea of starting with the room, then DSP to dial it in. That was the exact method shared by Jeff Clark of Audyssey and Phil from Sound United. I got the best results with the pro version of Audyssey and this is video where they both laid that road map. Even if you don't use Audyssey this is a good resource, FWIW Jeff did reply to my e-mails and seemed to really care about their customers:

This is an excellent study of analog interconnects used in audio. First, note its from a peer reviewed journal, Journal of Electronics and Communication Engineering. Next, note that the author IS a scientist and has received many awards such as CASE and Carnegie US Professor of the Year. Finally, note the extensive (45) references that are listed in the bibliography. The author doesn’t post a video of himself to try and promote his own study.

The fact that this paper proves the videos and research you often see (in this thread from newer guest members) are inaccurate and incomplete is fine. You do what you can with what you got, but please don’t be so irksome about it. Please enjoy this third party, peer reviewed research from an actual award winning, highly respected scientist

An electrical study of single-ended analog interconnect cables

:

Maybe start with a entry level power product they carry for proof of concept, look at the reviews here on Audiolabs DC Block:

The "Pepsi Challenge" , here is another internet reviewer that wanted "proof" about cables and his own story. I think some of our newer visitors/members have been invited to Danny's as well:

Another video, wear your headphones, even through you tube you can tell the difference the ADD POWR conditioner makes in this quick A/B comparison at an audio show. Ask members of this forum who own the brand if they like it, be skeptical, get a trial version, blind fold your friends, give prizes for who can hear a difference. Many of the ADD POWR products are easy to "blind test" if you are so inclined. You just plug them into an available outlet in your room (it isn’t necessarily a power strip depending on which product you try) so a friend can plug and unplug the product in an available outlet while you close your eyes and listen and count how many times you can tell a change. Then change places with your friend. Is it "scientific research" No. Will it help you decide if you should return it? Up to you to decide:

@russ69 , contact The Audio Tailor , a dealer in Australia, and see if they carry products you can audition:

at 3:00 in, "just ridiculous, I have had speaker upgrades that made less of a difference".

@russ69 if that Australian dealer lets you audition one please let us know how it works out.

@jerryg123 +1👍

@russ69 if you are in Socal here is a list of dealers:

http://www.laaudiofile.com/dealers.html

This is a paper that was in the references that really resonated with my own experience, "The Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems". You can’t get an ideal result using just equalization/DSP, it is very limited in what it can correct. Obsessing about what DSP software comes with your processor or receiver is not as important as treating your room. 35 years of studies show listeners prefer a flat, smooth frequency response accompanied by well behaved off axis response.

I was able to get the best frequency response in my room with room treatments and DSP in combination. Without getting the in room response as smooth as possible I don’t know how you can get the best experience from the money spent on components.

The measurement and calibration of sound reproducing systems

@westcoastaudiophile In my experience you don’t notice the amount of RF noise in your system until you remove it and then you are like WOW. So many companies dealing with this problem and all of them taking a slightly different tact. It will never be perfect and to your point, trial and error is a process that can take time and $$$. I decided to address it as best I can. Here is another paper you might enjoy that discusses "perceived" sound quality. Check fig 5 on page 408 to see the RFI difference between the two cables in the study. If you want to go deeper I go through the bibliography and read the supporting research that interests me:

"This work shows that two system configurations differing only by the interconnect pathway are audibly discernable, even by average listeners with no special experience in music or audio." (4. Conclusions pg 409)

Cable pathways between audio components can affect perceived sound quality

@fleschler , the enraged cannot be calmed by any type of proof, let alone scientific proof. Can you imagine our "scientific" guest being shown proof and exclaiming, "OK, you are right, I am wrong, sorry" Not gonna happen, heads will explode.

The point of science is that anyone who wants to check the data can conduct the same experiment, under the same conditions, and get the same result. The vast majority of enraged posters you see here and on other forums won’t do that because OMG, what if they are....wrong?!?!

The one paper I posted on improving your in room listening response states the obvious. Listeners prefer a flat smooth frequency response in the room. I would start there BEFORE you try testing and hearing a difference in your components.

@fleschler , it is sad that the sites and people that are attacking the manufacturers have built their brand on promoting misinformation. It isn’t limited to just one person or site either. These reviewers/critics have misled tons of people in order to promote themselves as an industry watchdog. Maybe they simply started out with good intentions and now they are trapped and if they change their "tune" how do they apologize for giving their followers a bum steer? Thus the rage continues and if anyone wants the truth you have to rely on your own ears, your room, using free trials that vendors provide to build good will and expand their brand.

If anyone insists on controlled testing at home then get this, but I don't think it is necessary. If I am buying something the difference should be obvious:

Another point of view on th GR Research power cord from our member @abdodson 

I put the first one on the amp. It replaced a similarly priced well regarded cable. No contest. More air, better separation, more dynamic. Across the board better, significantly better. I quickly ordered two more, wondering how they would sound on my DAC (Lampizator Atlantic TRP) and CD transport (Sim Moon 260D). On the DAC the cable being replaced is almost 3 times the cost of the GR Research cable. Again, no contest at all. The GR Research cable wins hands down in every respect (the one caveat here, and I hesitate to mention it, is the soundstage is still a little messy. But this is with almost 100% certainty a break-in issue).

@amir_asr Or maybe, and I am just spit balling here,

Yes, you are

that the way audiophiles do listening tests with their eyes is wrong. Just do the darn test blind.

This is only true in ASR world where you expect someone buying a cable to have a panel of trained listeners and the proper testing conditions for a blind test. Good luck with that, you don’t even do proper blind testing on ASR and then want to throw spitballs at our members.... no.

Test a dozen times and see if you can tell the tweak has done anything. Don’t confuse people with these false conclusions.

You first :) Post your system in your system profile along with your in room frequency response graph and components. If you did double blind testing on any component you purchased please share, thanks.

Here is the link to the virtual systems page:

@fleschler , do you think there's hope? Maybe he will start to participate instead of talk down to us.

@amir_asr , you still have not posted your system, pics or measurements either, please stop spit balling. 

iFi has an interesting new power cable, the SupaNova and does post some specs:

iFi Supanova Power Cable

and an interesting review can be found  here:

@amir_asr , you need to check your source, I said 100 hours to burn in a cable. If you continue through that same thread I also said if you want to be specific ask the manufacturer, and then you banned me!!

As for your search for a cable with more "air", may I present the iFi Supanova!! Air is listed if you look at the pictures of the iFi Supanova cable I just posted, did you miss it? See page 8. Remember, don’t ask for double blind tests unless you do them yourself: