DCS would hardly be an improvement over TOTL Esoteric...not to mention the expense of all the cables you will need. MSB Select 2 DAC with an Esoteric Spinner is as good as your gonna get at the moment if money is no object.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
Exactly, I Would put Esoteric inline with DSC and at the end of the day its system dependent and what suits you and your system best. If I was WC I would focus on the basics like his electrical implemented properly, At this level if electrical is not properly implemented then he well never fully realize the capability of the system he is building. 10g romenix is not properly implication, properly done where talking at the minimal JPS in wall cable with Furutech GTX D NCF receptables. His P20 is a great unit it just needs to be properly fed. Fundamentals first. |
Thanks RIAA. I have been curious about trying DCS because it is supposed to be great but I won’t know until I try it. I hear from several sources that MSB is awesome but I’ve not looked at pricing. I will certainly try to see if I can find a deal on one and go from there. Plinius sa103 arrives today to see what it does for my system with the ref10. Ive got an interesting question for you all, what would be better, my momentum integrated or a Dag progression stereo amp with my ref 10? I’ve got my own opinion but I wanted everyone to chime in. Let’s hear your opinion |
WC, Are you getting 2 SA-103? If so those are a monster when in mono black mode in Class A. I've ran 2 SA-102's and it was enough to melt my ears with some finesse as well. I'm trying to buy back my other SA-102 now that I have 801N's since they need serious power and current. I had my 102 rebuilt/upgraded by a reputable Plinius tech and it's just fantastic and the warmth and layers of imaging, just a better rounded amp all around. I believe you can get the same upgrades on the 103 since they share the same circuit and parts for the most part......Still wanting to hear you thoughts on Block, Ref 250SE? |
Hello Viber, I do not have sufficient listening experience to concur or not to concur with bridged amps being inferior to pure mono amps in one form or another. All I can tell you is that right now, without having tested M535 in stereo mode, I am not able to identify parameters that I can point out to be inherently inferior to a monoblock amplifier. There are also two things to bear in mind: * Technology is evolving... What has been historically a valid concern, may not be as valid a concern today. * Beware of the false induction step... The property found in a sample does not automatically extend to the class. Hence, generalizing is a prickly path that I usually avoid. Saluti, G. |
mrdecibel, Absolutely correct with your horns. You can get more dynamics with low watt amps then WC will ever get with any powerhouse. Your highly efficient speakers don't need an active line stage for gain, so your passive Luminous with its purity and lack of coloration gives you more resolution, etc. What power amp are you using? |
WC, As I discussed before, your Dag integrated within its power limitation will beat any combination of preamp without tone controls and power amp. Suppose the best Dag preamp plus the best Dag power amp has better circuitry than the Dag integrated. It won't be better by that much. However, the ability to boost the HF for the Neo is of paramount importance and outweighs any superiority of other electronics. You might like the relative warmth of the Ref 10 plus Plinius/ARC amps but they probably won't give you the resolution of the Dag integrated. Don't waste your money on a second Plinius. Yeah, you'll get more power, but everything else will be mediocre compared to the neutral Dag. Your only practical alternative is the Lux preamp with its tone controls, plus any power amp you like. |
WCSS, I know you love the Ref 10, and it might have some advantages over an all D'Agostino solution, but without the ability to boost the highs you may like the all Dag system more. The SA103/Ref 10 audition will give you some feedback on how much the Ref 10 adds to a Tube/SS combo. Looking forward to today's listening results. |
@denon1 yes I’m thinking of selling it so I can explore other sources. No other reason why other than I have to sell it in order to move up the ladder. Right now I have ideas but I have to be methodical. The Neoliths swallowed a lot of the budget which leaves me less cash to buy multiple amps at once. |
Viber, I will tell you the amp I am using in a moment ( although I have not been shy about in on other threads ). I gave up on tubes a long time ago, which was a shame, because with horns, there seems to be a " magic ". Factors such as mushy bass ( ill defined and slow ), microphonics, constant biasing, tube rolling ( getting and matching good quality tubes ), noise, long warm up times, and reliability issues were a big play in my decision. Keep in mind ( as this was pointed out to me by Roger Modjeski on his fabulous thread here RamTubes, asking an engineer questions ), I likely did not have the correct amps. From the very beginning, I jumped on board with solid state. Mcintosh, Ampzilla, Son and Grandson, Marantz 15, Citation 16 ( the A version, and even the little model 12 ), Dyna 416, Robertson, Bedini, PL, SAE, Sumo, and not to mention the Japanese units. Yamaha, Luxman, Kenwood LO7s, need I continue. I was a junkie, for sure. Being in the business, I was able to get my hands on absolutely anything. And I did. My Threshold Stasis 2, was at the time, a revelation, as was my Krell KSA 50 ( my favorite ).....It was not until I got my Krell KSA 50, that I believed SS was the real deal. Moving along to today, most of that equipment is gone, as I no longer was in the " collection " business. March of ’17 ( I am retired in Fl. at this point ), I decided, for giggles, to purchase the Nuforce STA 200, being sold for the price of $499., with free shipping, and a 30 day return. Amp was not satisfactory with my preamp collection ( again many, a few in the 5-6 K range ).Too much gain. Hum, hiss, and very little attenuation control on the volume. But, it sounded AWESOME. This amp, through my current pr. of Lascalas ( I have been through a number of pair), had attributes, positive mind you, of every other amplifier I have ever owned, and not a single negative, except for the too much gain issue. Early this year I tried passive, and have found my Nirvana, with the Luminous. There are many amp manufacturers whose products have been through my doors not mentioned here, because honestly, it no longer matters. Speakers, do not get me started. I had them all ( while always a pair of Lascala ). You did ask what amp I am using, right ? WC is on a larger " budget " scale than my own, but in my industry, I have heard much near what he is buying. To me, no biggie. There is only so much info on a recording. My weakness in likely my Dac ( heavily modified Adcom GDA 700 ), but, really does the job for me. Gave up my Lps and tt set up recently in ’15 as it was a pita for me to get a record to spin. I was anal with the cleaning, clamping, all else....My vinyl sounded superior to me than digital, but I adjusted. Enough for now. I am thinking of writing a book on my vast audio experiences, and believe me, there have been many. I have known many big and influential people in the industry, many have passed, some still around, and, other than better parts, not too excited about some of the new stuff. I apologize to you WC, as I did not mean to use your thread for my read. Your mission is still quite enjoyable to me, but as I’ve said, I have found a sound that suits me, my music, and my listening habits. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Here is my take on what could work very well with the Neolith speaker...... You have an integrated with no preamp output that has tone controls. So eventually, if you want to explore the additional power from some monoblocks, you could sell the AR Reference 10, and get a D'ag preamplifier. This would give you the tone controls that are making for some subtle adjustments that make the system sound better. I think the D'ag preamp will blow away any other preamp with tone controls, and probably blow away just about any preamp out there. So it would make a hell of a lot of sense to get a D'ag preamp. The D'ag Progression monoblocks are more powerful than the Momemtums. Progression has a 3,000 VA Transformer, 48 output transistors, and 400,000 power supply storage capacitance. This is the real amp design that Dan's Krell division stood strong as having all the available current to get any speaker load to shine. These Progression Monoblocks are going to fill the instruments with a more realistic representation than any other amplifier design out there. Being stable down to just about any Ohm, and having a power station like of reserve power will bring home the best sound possible. Are they worth it to buy them new? I think so. I'm sure the resale value will be at the top of the "for sale' chain. But the fact that Dan has so much time with designing these behemoth amplifiers, I feel that they would be such an asset to the Neoliths. My Krell KSA-200S that I'm using right now has a 2,800 VA Transformer. When I stepped up from my smaller Krell KST-100 to the Krell KSA-200S, I was floored as to how the instruments would fill themselves in. The music wasn't just louder, the realism of everything fill up like blowing up a baloon. Mind blowing improvement. This is what type of amps you need to get 'er done. Peroid. And the Momemtum Preamp could be the gateway to getting the sound just right. $34k for the Momentum preamp, and 38k for the Progression Monoblocks. For the money, I think you would be hard pressed to find a better combination. And you can also test all the amplifiers you want after buying the D'ag preamp. You could recoup some money by selling the D'ag integrated and the AR Reference 10. Summing up........ you would be making a major step for not too much money. Wew!! That was a lot. But this is what this guy thinks. |
I wish to reiterate my suggestion to employ Caig Pro Gold G5 contact enhancer particularly on the speaker cable connections both at speaker and amp. I’ll put my money where my mouth is. If you’re not wowed by the result, I’ll send you a check for what you paid and you keep the product. Since you’re a car guy think of it this way, you have purchased all the best parts to put together the killer engine you’ve been dreaming of. Now you have all your parts and you are having a blast assembling and can’t wait to see how it’s going to perform. The day comes. You excitedly fire it up and find it’s leaking oil. In your haste to assemble the engine you neglected to put sealer on the cam carrier. Think of the Pro Gold as the electrical sealer between the speaker cable, amp, and speaker. |
BigDesign, If you go on other forums like Audioshark and AudioAfficiendo you will see that the vast majority of all Dag Momentum 400 owners prefer the REF 10 to the Dag Pre-amp. I only know of 1 person that has both the Dag 400 Mom/Pre Combo. Think your sending the OP down the wrong path in that regard. |
@riaa I just was thinking of the tone controls. I do BELIEVE that the AR Reference 10 is one of the best out there. But I was thinking of how much better WCSS got the sound with some bass and treble adjustment. That's all. If it was my money, I would never sell the AR 10, and hold onto it. Even if I was to buy the D'ag preamp. I don't have these models to test, so it is all speculation. You could very well have the experience of seeing in real life the usage of these components. I have a setup that allows for tubes when I want it, and have passive or JFET output instead. I run the tubes 90% of the time. But the sound at the other outputs are just as lethal coming out the speakers. Depending on recordings, passive may bring much more transparency. So it is an art, no matter what trail you choose. Is there a right or wrong path? Most of the time yes. Other times, it's just preference. |
Ha! You gotta love this thread. With all the miles and miles of claims that the D'ag would destroy blah blah blah, here we have ONE SA-103 (recently many for $3k each on the used market) matched with the Ref10 essentially destroying the D'ag. WC, if you like the one SA-103, try a second. A long time audio friend had a pair of 102's and he swore by these again and again. When he scaled down to one SA-102, he noted a drop in performance but still the sound of his system was might impressive, especially in imaging. |
Look, im only reporting by what I’m hearing here. Yes, the sa103/ref10 give you far more oomph and crazy detail and the mids are un-freaking-real. I mean a deaf person can hear the difference. I suspect a second Plinius will be put on order. For now, I can confirm that with my Neoliths the momentum integrated has not outperformed the Plinius sa103/ref10. With other speakers it may be a different story (Wilson, magico, who knows). |
This puts something in perspective which I’ve said before here on this thread: tubes and class a are the best amps for panels. I’ve said it here before and today I followed my own advice and look. I’m actually thinking: why would I want to spend 20k in a pair of Luxman if the sound is impressive right now with little money ? |
WC, But what about the HF of Ref 10 plus Plinius? You like bass oomph, but usually accuracy with tight, fast impact is associated with less oomph, as in the Magico compared to Focal. If this combo's HF without treble boost are still more prominent than with the Dag integrated with its treble boost, that means the Dag has a rolled off HF personality without the tone controls. I kinda doubt it, because Dag is known more for accuracy than euphonic tubey sound. This is probably why Dag power amp owners like ARC tube preamps to soften the powerful tight Dag blows. Others here have described the Plinius as being warm. Very confusing. With the Neo, you have to go back to the drawing board and re-evaluate power amps using a reference preamp, say the Ref 10 for now, although I think the Lux preamp would be very useful and excellent, as described above by atownkeep. His Neo plus the complete Lux is probably awesome. Go visit, and boost the treble on his Lux preamp for excitement in percussion, etc. The Lux preamp would be your best money spent now. As you said, the Lux combo is probably unbeatable, especially for the price. If you can drive to Texas, bring your Ref 10/Plinius to compare to his Lux combo. |
The Dag integrated sounds warm with Logans with no controls engaged. The ref10/Plinius is not as warm and no Plinius is far from being warm. I’d say it’s a little on the forward side of things, but just a little. Of course I’m sure if I spent more money on amps then the Neolith will sound even better but right now I want to just enjoy this amp and get fully acquainted with it then I’ll slowly introduce another amp or a second Plinius. For the money, the Plinius 103 is a damn steal though. It’s really robbery scene from the movie heat. |
Yeap running two Plinius in balanced mono will blow your mind! If you want it rebuilt/upgraded I know the guy that does it and it’s Plinius certified. The Plinius loves a tube front end for sure! I've been tube rolling in my Cary to get the fine tuning down and nothing beats some NOS Sylvania 1940's tubes. I have not heard the Plinius on panels but I can only imagine that they are just stellar as they are with my B&W 801N. |
@whitecamaross Sometime in your up-bringing, you have been wrongly influenced to believe that cost equals performance. The Dag integrated sounds warm with Logans with no controls engaged. The ref10/Plinius is not as warm and no Plinius is far from being warm. I’d say it’s a little on the forward side of things, but just a little. I’ve said it here before and today I followed my own advice and look. I’m actually thinking: why would I want to spend 20k in a pair of Luxman if the sound is impressive right now with little money ? I hope hat this has been an AWAKENING. You can only realize and accept this concept with Experience... IMO. This is why i said that one day you will "Get It" Thank you for your honesty. On another note, I do not know how far you are from Eric Love of http://www.audiosurroundings.com/catalog.php/Ericlove/pg5701 He carrys Plinius and would give you a heck of a Deal. I’ll bet that he can beat anyone’s price on Plinius and Purist Audio He ..is who i buy from when i want Purist Audio Design Cables and Plinius Amps . Eric Love is a Great guy . He is honest and Fair .He will treat you right . Eric Love 770 695 1312 for a quick response P.S. I am so glad that you have found the best setup ... for now I know that you have put in enough time and energy to get the best results. Please stick with these for a while and fine tune them... I am so very pleased that you got the results that you wanted. I could tell by some of your posts that you were somewhat unsure , but Now you are coming through with confidence that you have got it right . Enjoy your system , because we are enjoying the Journey. |
Greyhound: this is what system matching is about. The Dag didn’t really match quite well with the Neoliths and what they needed but this might not be the truth with the Wilson’s. I actually remember hearing this same ref10 with a boulder 2060 and some expensive rockports speakers and the ref10 sounded awful with that combo. I actually liked the dcs Rossini as a preamp better in that set up which is what he ended up doing. In this case, it’s clear that I should be only pursuing class a and tube amps and I’ll be doing just that or perhaps revisit the Belcanto black system which I was also told it was quite good with these speakers. |
WC, I am excited to hear about your AWAKENING (words of the cost conscious grey9hound, and I agree). Thanks for your honest reporting, which opens up consideration of the Plinius as a great sounding cheap amp that should interest everyone here. So it seems that in comparison, Dag has a warm personality. It is NOT an issue of compatibility with speakers, etc. The Dag is warm, period. The tone controls to boost HF would make the Dag less warm, or more to the relative neutrality of the Plinius. How does the Dag with treble boost compare to the Ref 10 plus Plinius? Since the Ref 10 has a little warmth, that means the Plinius by itself is probably very neutral. Believe me, if you wanted to save the most money, get the Rane ME 60 for $200 and just use the Rane as a line stage plus EQ, going into the Plinius. This will give you impressive transparency and neutrality and enough gain for most of your music. But if you need the additional gain of the Ref 10, you can still insert the Rane between the Ref 10 and Plinius. The Rane is quite transparent, although not as much as the unique passive Luminous of mrdecibel. The very flexible 30 band adjustments will make you a fine sound tailor--very important. I am now thinking that this is a better option than getting the much more expensive Lux preamp with its tone controls. From all descriptions here of the Lux electronics, it is still warm, possibly comparable or more so than your Ref 10. I believe that the chain of Ref 10+Rane+Plinius might be better in every way than the Lux preamp + Plinius. And you only spend $200 instead of many !000's for the Lux. This is a milestone for you, because you enjoy the less warm Ref 10 plus Plinius combo more than the relatively warm Dag. Clarity and detail are most important and exciting, and you will eventually realize that warmth gets boring after the honeymoon is over. Maybe amps like the Boulder are at the extreme of sterility, but for now you have the Plinius which seems ideal. Once you realize the importance and excitement of detail/neutrality, you will want to stay away from warm tube stuff. Tube amps like higher impedances, so they will give good dynamics for lower freq, but tube amp output into the very low impedance of the Neo's HF is much worse, which skews the tonal balance away from the HF. This is why tube lovers like them with electrostatics, because they already like rolled off HF which enable toleration of higher volumes. And remember mrdecibel's post that his experience with tube amps was terrible for bass control and accuracy. |
+1 for Eric Love (great guy) and Plinius. I had a lot of Plinius modes ( all the way up to SB301) with the exception of their reference amplifier. Great amps but noisy power supply. They released new reference amplifier now with totally new power transformer. Should be great amplifier. The problem with Plinius brand that its poorly marketed and represented here in US. |
viber6, Of course it's a matter of compatibility...in my opinion that's what this hobby is all about. We are trying to assemble a system based on all of the variables that we prefer. It isn't just about how one component sounds, be it warm or bright, but how well the "system" sounds. I submit Plinius can be preferred over the Dag in one system and not another. Just like WC as already stated, "I actually remember hearing this same ref10 with a boulder 2060 and some expensive rockports speakers and the ref10 sounded awful with that combo." The same comments can apply to any component. |
bigddesign3, I feel that tone controls are at the top of the list for what's important. They don't cure every illness, but go a long way. For example, I recently tried the excellent Classe D200 amp. With the same EQ settings as for my Bryston 2.5B SST2, the Classe was significantly rolled off in HF and sweeter/warmer in the midrange. I increased the HF some more on the EQ and got some improvement in neutrality and HF, but the sound was distorted in certain ways. But with my Mytek Brooklyn amp, the differences from the Bryston were less, and I was able to boost the HF and get more overall satisfaction than with the Bryston. So I purchased the Mytek, thanks to the benefit from EQ. It didn't work out for the Classe. In many cases, differences between excellent amps (also preamps) are less than the differences between EQ settings tailored to your preferences. |
ricred1, Yes, compatibility is always a factor, which is why the ultimate test is your own listening rather than blindly trusting a reviewer's comments, especially if you are spending big bucks. However, it is also true that electronics have a certain house sound. In the old days, Conrad Johnson (CJ) made syrupy sweet tube stuff, which was a basic characteristic with many diverse systems. ARC made more neutral stuff, with variations within their house sound. I would not expect any CJ system to sound less warm than using ARC in the same system. Of course, there are individual exceptions with certain models, but the house sound concept is generally true. I am delighted to hear that this particular Plinius seems to be better in most ways than the Dag for WC's Neo at a much cheaper price. I suspect that Plinius and Dag each have their own house sound, applicable to many systems. Suppose you have a warm speaker, and the warmer Dag makes the system even warmer. If you crave warmth above everything else, then you will say that you like Dag with that speaker, more than the Plinius with that speaker. It would still be true that the Plinius makes that speaker sound less warm. That doesn't mean the Plinius is incompatible with that speaker--it just means that you like lots of warmth and prefer the Dag with it. |
Testing a bunch of amps are going to be a good way to see what's up with the Neoliths. Your on your 2nd now. Just imagine how much fun it will be to try some others. The Neolith can deliver. You know now that testing some new ones will get you more clarity on who is the winner. My God though, you have the ESL that we mostly can dream about. |
Viber, with a violin under your chin much of your life, you obviously are " used to " certain characteristics of sound many listeners do not have experience with. That can be true with the fact of just being " on the stage " or " in the pit ", again not experienced by many. I really do not see why you PUSH the eq so much. Granted, it works for you, but in reality, it is a band aid to better sound. I appreciate the fact that to your ears only 1 violin recording needs no eq, which I find very sad, but...….Admittedly, not every recording I own is wonderful. However, they are balanced. I do not wish to change it. On the same cd ( as an example my recent listen to the Rolling Stones " Sticky Fingers ", a few songs are a bit harsh, lean, bright, etc. But on others, smoother, rounder, warmer, etc. But what I listen for, is the ability of all the RS members playing together, tightly, if you know what I mean. And this is due to the studio folks, taking the individual tracks and putting them all together. I have no need or desire to change a thing, as I easily accept the recording for what it is. The Luminous unit has made this SO MUCH CLEARER for me to hear more into the recording. Tape hiss is more abundant, when there, being to close to the mike is there. Not to mention the attack and decay of each and every movement of the musicians, and their instruments. The bass line of " Can’t You Hear Me Knock'in ", was before, a little out of place with the mix ( my subs were not quite jelling with the Lascala’s ), not quite. The elimination of any gain stage has made it tight, uniform, coherent, fast, immediate, you get my point. I though my system was excellent before. Now, unbelievable. And, as I said, my speaker / room / listening seat, although not perfect, reveals to me to hear every and all of the most minute little details in my vast library, in an unadulterated, uncolored, and honest way. WC is not ready for eq or tone controls, as he is still trying to find the best combination for his Neos, even if they have a HF roll off. Leave him alone about the EQ, at least for now, that is my professional recommendation. Enjoy ! MrD. |
mrdecibel, Both you and I are not badgering anyone to accept our advice, but our experience and desire to help by imparting our knowledge is why we spend time posting. The plain fact is that I believe one's chosen tonal balance is even slightly more important than transparency. The system doesn't even have to be of high quality--for example my stock car radio system benefits enormously from the tone controls. That car system is so rolled off that even boosting the treble to the max is still musically better than without it. Most music is improved, and the announcer's voice is clearer although admittedly tonally off. I prefer the tonal aberrations to muddy sound which wrecks everything. To choose an extreme case, put your Rane in your system, but REDUCE freq above 2000 Hz by 12 dB. This will make your previously excellent system sound so muddy and worse than any car radio without tone control adjustments. It is obvious the EQ has a profound effect, good and bad. It just needs to be used carefully, using YOUR ears as a guide. No need to call in audio consultants to do measurements. Since WC himself admitted that the Neo was ho-hum initially, and that boosting the treble by +4 was a big benefit, I continue to discuss this. Other people here have found EQ useful. By the way, I still enjoy music from poor audio formats and systems, like youtube, and sitting way off axis relaxing in the bedroom listening to a decent boom box system. And there is nothing as musically satisfying as hearing great old violinists in 1930 recordings, like Fritz Kreisler, George Enesco. Today's young violinists have good technique, but more superficial musicality than the great old masters, so even though today's recordings have better sound, that's not enough. So I listen both for the excitement of modern sound and for soulful artistry in mediocre old sound. |
So far I’ve listened to gryphon Diablo 300, momentum integrated and ref10/Plinius sa103. The latter is superior than the first 2. Bolder mids, bigger soundstage and more sledge hammer bottom end. More sparkle as well. As I said to one of my connections, I’m shocked at how good this sounds as a combo and yet the amp is nowhere near as expensive as some of the amps I’ve owned before. This amp really turned me upside down And what makes it more interesting is that it wasn’t a ton of money. Of course I’ll try more amps so I can see how much more these neoltihs have in the tank; it’s almost a must do for me with a speaker like this. Having the Neolith and not trying different amps is like having a race car and not driving it at 190mph. It’s just a waste not to do it. |
twoleftears, Love your ID. Yes, bridged amps usually are not recommended for very low impedance loads. The same is true for a single stereo amp with a topology of parallel circuits to boost output. WC may get away with this because the low impedance of the Neo is only in HF, so if the music doesn't contain much HF, it is OK. For midrange and bass, pure electrostatics can have very high impedances like 20 or more ohms, so bridging may work for certain music. However, the woofers in the Neo are used fairly high into the midrange, so the impedance of the woofers and the stat panel may not be that high. Unlike dynamic speakers with unpredictable impedance curves, stats are like capacitors which have an inverse relationship of impedance to frequency. |
WC, Good observations on the merits of the cheap Plinius. Except that the cheap Plinius is giving you 190 MPH. Trust me, adding the cheap Rane will give you 250 MPH. I don't know much about cars, but in that area, more money buys higher performance engines, although maybe an expert would correct me on that. But in audio, as you have just discovered, more money does not necessarily buy better performance. In fact, the audio industry caters to fickle, musically uninformed audiophiles who want to impress others with the money they spend. In many areas of life, the elite rich enjoy the fact that not many people can afford what they have. The item doesn't HAVE to be better--it just has to be expensive. I am not a basher of the rich, because they have earned their money and deserve respect for their success. They are entitled to spend their money as they choose. Sometimes it buys better quality, and other times it doesn't. |