Remember... Love them or hate them , McIntosh hold their value pretty damn well :)
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
I’ve known WCSS for years now. I agree with him, room correction for 2 channel listening by in large sucks. Works OK for subwoofers, surround speakers or even a center channel. 2 channel? Get the right speaker, position it correctly, use some room treatments. Otherwise, get an active crossover, or a fully DSP’d speaker. For all of those that believe in waiting months for electronics/DAC’s to break in...I’m with WCSS. Use them a few times, let them get all warmed up and cooled down. That’s it kids. Speakers, I’ll buy that some may take a little longer. DynAudio can actually measure the differences. Chances are for 95% of us, you know within a few hours if you made the right choice on your speakers or electronics. You can spend weeks "breaking" it in aka your ears getting used to it. But you are just rationalizing your purchase. Where I do differ from WCSS... I’d like to see consistency in the speaker/room for the given electronics. But dude moved, what are you going to do? I do think a few room treatments are in order, but we’ve talked about that. Cables... ah... if someone can explain to me how a $5000.00 power cord makes a bit of difference for that last 3 feet after the electricity has traveled MILES, then you should be using those sales skills to make some bank selling a product that can get you paid well. (that said, if you are using an uber-power amp, a dedicated 20amp circuit makes sense. But save the money on a $500 outlet, get a medical grade outlet and call it good) Ironically I didn’t even discover this thread until about a month ago. It’s fantastic. Speakers/Room Source Amp Best be spending 90% of your budget there. |
@whitecamaross As mentioned above, you could try something like the Lyngdorf Audio TDAi 3400 integrated. It’s 200 watts (8 ohms) and 400 watts (4 ohms), but it’s also a DAC and has RoomPerfect. It would be interesting to see how this unit would do against your heavyweight integrateds and separates. There’s one on Audiogon right now............................ Dave |
Dep14: I love the way you responded. It’s clear and straight to the point. Thezaks: I thought about it but I’ve got too much front end right now. I don’t want to bring any more amps and preamps until my Magico speakers arrive next Saturday. I have been in talks with my connection in regards to cabling and he said MIT cables is what Magico uses to test their speakers. Maybe I go the MIT route someday but I need “seat time” first with the speakers and my components before I began tweaking. I need to get my ears used to the sound of the speakers so I can later pick up the differences of any changes I make as I go. I was told magico sounds amazing with gryphon and constellation so I may explore. Luxman has been retired from my system since I had to trade all the pieces in as part of my deal with the Magicos. I will say something to you all: the simaudio 860a will come out of the box and begin to play again and it has become the amp I’ve held on to the longest. Why? Because I remember the day I connected it to the ref10 and the revel salon 2s. Wow it was insane how that combination sounded. |
dep14: Cables... ah... if someone can explain to me how a $5000.00 power cord makes a bit of difference for that last 3 feet after the electricity has traveled MILES, then you should be using those sales skills to make some bank selling a product that can get you paid well.There's no need for anyone to explain anything. Designers often can not explain many things, but through trials of different active and passive components, materials, implementation layout, etc., differences are indeed heard. Try out a few power cords. I suggest at the preamp, DAC and power conditioner, and determine if you hear any benefits to one product vs. another. If not, that's cool. Speakers/RoomTypically there are 2 cables at each system component, a power cord and an output cable, either digital, IC or spkr cable. To limit the expense of these 2 cables at about 10% of the cost of their associated component is an arbitrary and potentially devastating to the system design result. But once again, if it works for you that's cool. |
Luxman has been retired from my system since I had to trade all the pieces in as part of my deal with the Magicos.I must say this is surprising and sad to hear. After all the enjoyment you have had with these, all your praise, ranking the Luxman as #2 being the Rowland amps, and now sending them out to pasture for the sake of trying another speaker? In your room, they portrayed space like nothing else you have recently heard. This trait is the most difficult to achieve and now you’re starting all over yet again? |
Jafox: i concur with you. I wasn’t feeling the luxman leaving me but I felt that I had a great opportunity to try magicos so I did. Sacrifice a thing to try something that could be a game changer. Lets see what happens... lastly, I can always go back to luxman if I decide to. I know that magicos sound excellent with gryphon so lets see what happens. |
e Hmm, lemme see if I can explain our heroic friend WCSS's acute manifestation of Audiophrenia Furiosa in bulletted form....
* He can do it because his wife is a Saint!
* His spirit is that of an explorer of old, Always restless, always questing, always yearning... Not so much that of the pioneering settler who explores every last nook and cranny of his magic valley nestled amongst the tallest hills and then happily puts down roots forever.. The true explorer can't help it wondering about What's just out of sight, beyond that next hill, and is compelled to take immediate action.
* Conversely, the generational exploration of the World that in some 80,000 years inched early human habitation from East Africa, through the Southern coast of the Arabian peninsula, the whole landmass of Asia, the Aleutian land bridge, and then gradually South through the Americas, all the way to Tierra Del Fuego is alien to WCSS's "forma mentis"
* Thus, the goal is as much the experience of the journey, as are the resulting scattered bits of knowledge and the fond memories of its happenings. Read Charles Darwin's The Voyage Of The Beagle(1)... you will grok the spirit.
WCSS's eternal question is... "What if?"
* WCSS's back does not get dislocated by hefting ungodly weights day after day *Grins!*
* He is having load of fun doing what he is doing, and is happiest when we can enjoy his adventure vicariously....
* ... But WCSS does not feel particularly obligated to heed every suggestion -- sometimes more like obsessive demands for methodological conformance or directional intimations -- from the other denisens of this most audiofoolish watering hole... This being a Free world, and all that jazz.
...
Bottomline: let's relax and enjoy our friend's adventure, even though mostly vicariously.... Simetimes we will agree with his choices and the -- never permanent -- turn he has taken, while other times we will wonder... Yet always we must admit that he, and all of us, are having fun.... At WCSS's not unconsiderable expense, that is... Ah yes, did I already mention that his better half is most certainly a Certified Saint(2)?
Saluti, G.
Footnotes:
1. Downloadable from: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/944 2. WCSS's better half should be cloned! |
Guido.......your explanation is perfecto ! However, my only question is something I have mentioned before. When dealing with components such as these, " those that are supposed to get out of the way of the music ", should be in a room that both be of proper size and acoustically near perfect. This will always be the downside to what he is trying to accomplish, otherwise, listen through a good set of headphones. The room, the room, the room.........this of course has been my experience, and is my opinion. .....I guess we will see with the Magicos.......Enjoy ! MrD. |
Guido: AMEN to your explanation :) I am here blasting my gryphon 300 with vivid audio G1's and with a drink in my hand i am wondering, " why am i buying Magicos if this combination sounds OUTSTANDING ?" WELL, it is my journey and i have not decided WHEN it will come to an end. Do you guys have ANY IDEA how many people have messaged me here wishing they were my neighbors? Why? because they would also love this journey with me. They would love to sit here and listen and listen and then change stuff out on the fly and see what happened to the sound and take notes and learn from it. It is such a blessing in many ways to be able to do this and as often as i do. I am thankful for the wife of course as well :) she is a keeper ! |
Hello WCSS, have you ever considered doing some speaker placement using the Masterset process devised by Peter Gansterer of Vienna Acoustics and John Hunter of Sumiko.... It does take a modicum of patience, but you achieve achieve good results on your own without paying a cent in room treatment or active compensating systems. Here is a link to a somewhat simplified DIY form of Masterset: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ud04dqtmas5pw2k/master-set.pdf?dl=0 There is a bit more to MasterSet than what is described in the file, yet the document is a good starting point. Saluti, G. PS. If you decided to ignore Masterset, I promise you I shan't pester you about it every second day *Grins!* |
Ok guys so 2 of my good connections are having a big battle with me. One claims the Focal Sopra 3 will embarrass my Magico s5 mk2. He said the sopra 3 with bhk 300 amp And ref10 preamp is by far the best he’s heard for the money. He’s also a YG dealer and Magico dealer. He said the Focal Sopra 3 will make the magico sound thin and without any character. On the other hand, the dealer who sold me the magico is also a focal dealer and has had sopra 3 in his room as well and said they were just ok but it’s a mid fi speaker. He said the magico is a superspeaker and it will kill the sopra 3. Long story short, I will have both but I don’t know which I’ll like best. What are you guys’ thoughts on what they are saying? Again both are magico and focal dealers so they both know both speakers rather well. I will say I’m a bit nervous about opening the focals and loving them. I may have to just wait until the magicos arrive first. |
WCSS....just by chance i happened to listen to the Focal Sopra 3. i was at a dealer to pick up my turntable. as you might remember, i love the martin logan sound. he had a pair of 15a's set up in the adjacent listening room. so i was able to audition both. the electronics were mcintosh ( not the biggest mac fan but it sounded good) . music was streamed. again, not ideal. but.... i won't describe the Sopra sound but they left me an IMPRESSION on me. WOW! i had listened to many cone driver speakers along my personal journey and this is the one that i could live with. overall i preferred the 15a's. but that's just me. i own the M-L 13a's , and i could never give them up. the focal? can anyone say "second system? hmm lol mike |
So what mikepaul said is what I am thinking. Auditioning speakers for 10 min doesn’t really tell you the full story. Hours of listening sessions will give your ears a better impression of whether you love or hate the speakers. I will see which pair I can live with the longest and then report back. The Wilsons leave tomorrow and then the vivid audios a few days after. |
WCSS, Here is a standalone Room Perfect for sale, FYI; https://www.ebay.com/itm/232858283808?ul_noapp=true |
I suspect WCSS is more likely to eat a can of cat food than to buy a McIntosh product. Here's a link for Mac cat food, just in case...turducken...might even be tasty. 😊 https://www.petsexpert.co.uk/products/20219-mac-s-cat-adult-duck-turkey-chicken |
I think the midrange should be thicker on the Magicos, thiner on the Focals because their very light cone material ( foam sandwich with fiberglass) have always had that sound signature ( supposed to better and richer with the latest designs...Sopra, Kanta, etc.) I believe the Focals will have more boogie factor , more midrange snap and speed...snare drums twacks should need less power from the amp for the same volume level than the Magico. I think detail and refinement should be in favor of Magico. Bass should be more tuneful on the Magico, sealed design + woofer cone material. I think the Magicos will be easier to set up speakers than Focal. Sealed design, smoother highs...a speaker that behaves better. The Focal are more extreme...highs...bass...ported design. |
Thanks techno dude and tomcy6. I believe that whichever speaker I end up selecting will be more because it behaves better in my room rather than one being ten times better then the other. Both are excellent speakers but I believe a matter of taste and room friendliness with one of the two pairs is how the winner will be selected. Which one will it be? We shall see.. |
Be careful. You get what you pay for. A deal is offered because neither of these speakers are good quality (if you talk SOTA) but rather offer big margins for dealers. Measurements of Sopra 2 at Soundstage are terrible https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1445:nrc-measurements-focal-sopra-no2-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153 same issue with Magico https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1043:nrc-measurements-magico-s5-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153 Both suffer from huge linearity issues at a mere 95 dB. These are terrible designs if you are talking SOTA. If you are looking at the speakers then they are both fantastic looking for the money (aesthetics is 10/10) but neither is worthy of 90% of the amplifiers you have tried. Perhaps the Mk2 and the version 3 are better but these measurements indicate both of the prior versions are LEMONS! No wonder you got such great deals! You cannot compare Vivid G1 to either of these speakers. This is not in the same class or league at all. Frankly, you are leaning towards gorgeous looking but mediocrity in sound rather than SOTA sound that you pursued with Vivid. Of course relatively speaking these are still excellent speakers and better than most but not the same league or what one could call SOTA. I really don’t understand the randomness in this excercise. It seems pointless to buy stuff just for resale value but there are crazy folks like Steve Gutenberg who preach this strategy. YMMV but this is the direction of mediocrity (me too components) rather than SOTA. |
I have to agree with shadorne on this one. IME the G1s are in a different league, especially when reaching 100 db plus, which is quite easy to do with the amplifiers WC has had, and WC likes it loud. I believe a new merry-go-round will be starting, this time with speakers ( what am I saying, it has already started ). WC is having fun in all of the switchovers and changes. He will not be able to settle on anything at this time. I am sorry WC if I am offending you. I am calling it as I am seeing it. Continue to enjoy the ride. MrD. |
No offense taken mrdecibel. See I don’t mind when people articulate their argument like you just did. I just despise it when they come into MY JOURNEY and attack me. I get it, this isn’t for everyone and that is fine. I’m doing this for me and for those of you that want to keep following me. That said guys, the speaker journey is a hell of a lot more difficult than changing amplifiers. I spent 5 hours yesterday packing up the G1s and Wilsons. I had to take breaks because the Florida heat and humidity right now is crazy. I am not sure I can keep trying more speakers due to the massive effort required to pack and unpack plus me needing an extra hand to do this. With amps, it was mostly me lifting and packing. Not with speakers. I Can’t do it alone. I do want to find a speaker that can improve on what I’ve heard so far in my room. I want to like either the magico or focals. Guido: yes I’ll break in the focals for sure. They deserve a fair shot. |
If Magicos are bad on paper why did the same Soundstage have them included in both 2015,2016 and 2017 recommended speakers over 10K? https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1736:magico-s... I have heard both the Giya 2 and assorted Magicos in same rooms and I thought the Magicos had much faster tighter sound. I voted with my wallet. Yep I’m a fanboy now. |
Because measurements don’t tell the whole story. Speakers that measure well have been outclassed by speakers not measuring as well because in this hobby it’s all about how it sounds to the human ear. I just read this post from another Agon member I respect. His comments really get at this truth. His comments below are about a particular area where this speaker (Tekton) measured poorly. In spite of the poor measurement in one particular area the speaker received a stellar review from Stereophile as well as other audio publications. charles1dad6,792 posts07-23-2018 10:57amIt seems to me the overwhelming goal of a speaker (or any audio product) is to sound good. Two professional reviewers and numerous listeners confirm they sound very good. IMO this is simply the bottom line objective. In an academic sense I get the isolated measurement concern and driver arrangement issue. It is however a moot concern if the speaker sound quality is of a high standard which it certainly appears to be. The focus on an aspect of the speaker that in the end doesn’t detract from the overall sound seems irrelevant. Now if this speaker had flawless measurements across the board yet produced poor/mediocre sound quality, there’s a legitimate problem. This is audio so we listen and judge. Charles |
As an FYI, here is what Stereophile had to say about the actual speaker the OP purchased in terms of measurements.... “There can be no question: My measurements of Magico's S5 Mk.II reveal it to be a superbly well-engineered loudspeaker.”—John Atkinson Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/magico-s5-mkii-loudspeaker-measurements#xD2T0HFF2KLpqb2E.99 |
The measurements of the S5 are exemplary, the lowest THD measured at the NRC . The legendary Martin Colloms from HIFI Critics, the last word on loudspeakers design, said (and bought), about the S5: “Just for the record, … the overall distortion never exceeded 0.1%. For 80% of the span below 20kHz it measured just 0.04% second and 0.03 % of third harmonic. These are amazingly linear results” “For the science-based reviewer, it is great to see theory so accurately translated into the listening experience. While the S5 MkII may not immediately impress with whizz-bang auditioning, it has power and majesty, excellent resolution, natural timbres, deep, dynamic, authoritative and very well timed bass, combined with huge well focused stereo images. Easy on the ears, you can listen for hours on end to this rhythmically involving and highly musical design.” http://www.magico.net/images/Reviews/S5/Magico_S5_II_complete.pdf If you want to compare the "cheap" Magico to the Focal, someone unbiased already did (to the Sopra 2, which to my ears sound better than the 3 which have way too much bass). https://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php/product-debuts/magico-a3-december-2017/739-magico-a3-loud... |
There is a lot of speculation going on with many people here not having much experience with the products WCSS is evaluating. "I think it's going to be this, I think it's going to be that". It's not so simple as measurements, sealed vs. ported cabinets, or reviewers' comments. I read the Stereophile John Atkinson reviews of the Sonus Faber Futuras and the Magico S5 II. He talks about the Magico requiring the user to be seated in a very specific ear level for the speaker to truly be appreciated. He says a similar thing about the Futura but not as critical here. When I heard the SF's last month at a dealer's huge room, I could walk all over the room, laterally and closer and farther from the speakers. The presentation was magnificent no matter where I was. But when switching to the Focal Sopra 2's, the sweet spot was very tight; moving just a little to the left or right and the differences were significant. And both pairs there were much farther apart than WCSS will be able to accommodate. Image placement and dimensionality were poor with the Focals. But they were fun to listen to. This is a speaker WCSS can "blast" for his rock music and HT sources. But a refined product it is not. Ultimately I would rate the Sopra as midfi but it is by far the most fun midfi speaker I have heard. The Sopra 3 will be much the same but with even more bass energy that certainly will overpower his room as the Sopra 2's, at a third out into the room, 5-6 feet from the side walls, easily filled the 20x25x10 dealer room. That was what impressed me so much. If you want to go with one speaker for music perfection and also for HT dynamics, especially in a smaller room, I don't think any of these are going to work for you more than a few days. You need to put all your focus on the new room, including 2-3 dedicated circuits, and then restart your quest for the speaker that does it all. The only speaker that I have heard so far that does this and is not an insane cost is the Sound Lab line. The comparably priced Magnepans or Martin-Logans don't even come close. Oh, and how are the Silent Source interconnects working out for you? |
I Don’t understand the statement “lowest THD measured at NRC” - the measurements are good (excellent speaker) but simply cut off at -50 dB. I can’t find the statement in any of the articles except the Magico website. What is concerning is the deviation from linearity - the plots show 3 dB of driver compression at 95 dB SPL. This is not very loud. This level of performance may be excellent but not SOTA. It may not show up as distortion but the sound is clearly not remaining properly balanced at increased sound levels or with large dynamics. The plots show increasing dynamic compression as SPL increases and suggest that at 100 dB the treble is down about 6 dB. |
The S5 can play extremely loud without any strain (all reviews and listening sessions confirm that), but you do need an amp that can drive it at high levels. The amp at the NRC probably can’t drive the S5 properly; the impedance is rather low above 2K. There is no other logical reason for that (it is a Scan Speak based Revelator tweeter, one of the best around). You seem to, rather strangely, concentrate on one thing, did you not see the astonishing lack of THD above 70 Hz (-50 dB for loudspeakers is more than plenty - and most likely impossible to measure outside an anechoic chamber). Feel free to look and compare to all the other speakers they measured; I do that for fun ;) BTW, that is all history anyway, the S5 Mk2 is superior in all ways to the Mk1, and as you can see from the reviews, it is much easier to drive above 2KHz) |
