Musetec (LKS) MH-DA005 DAC

@debjit_g Yes, I understood that, I was just relating the AQ to WW in general sense, presuming same metallurgy so perhaps same sound signature with all cables of that particular model. Its possible I could be wrong here?

@debjit_g Yes, I understood that, I was just relating the AQ to WW in general sense, presuming same metallurgy so perhaps same sound signature with all cables of that particular model. Its possible I could be wrong here?

I could be wrong but I do not think you can correlate the sound signature of USB to HDMI to RJ45. They are all different interface and carry different signal and interfaces the component differently.

While testing the I2s inputs I got to thinking about the USB cable, which I'm very happy with, but I thought should I get a USB cable without a powerline?

Here ya go cheapest upgrade in the universe:

https://community.octoprint.org/t/put-tape-on-the-5v-pin-why-and-how/13574

It talks about printers but it's exactly the same. I used ordinary sticky tape...thinking about upgrading to black electrical tape...lol!

@lordmelton That's exactly what I've been doing for many years. Gives one access to all usb cables rather than the more unusual usb sans power line.

@debjit_g  I would tend to agree, yes the design and the connectors are changed, the metallurgy and dialectic shouldn't change if it goes by same model name.

As for burn in, it continues for me as well, I need to get around 100 hours more on various parts and components until I'm done with this round of system upgrades. Per usual, 005 continues to expose every single change. 005 is high performance piece, needs highest quality octane. There remains a single aspect of sound that continues to intrigue me about 005, and that is ultimate refinement or lack thereof. With the many rounds of burn in I've experienced, still testing for this. Just when I hear a recording lacking in this, along comes another that really blows me away! It doesn't have to be audiophile quality, so many mediocre recordings continue to impress. So then, I have to ask myself, is this question of burn in, lack of refinement with 005, or are some recordings just not up to 005 challenge? I only know one thing, I'd not change one iota of resolution or transparency for a more refined presentation, if that is indeed fault of 005. Any potential dac I'd want to audition or purchase has a pretty high bar to reach. Based on reviews and gut feelings I'm thinking well over $10k.

As it is, I'm staying up way too late and loosing sleep, always wanting to hear another track, another artist. Zero fatigue. Haven't been at this plateau for many a year.

@melm and everyone else that disputed the I2s vs USB comparison. Well you were rght and wrong, well sort of, at the same time.

The reason I now believe why I2s is giving me such a great sound, better than USB, is because of the DC LPS I’m using.

@debjit_g got me thinking about the huge power supply he’d made to his JCAT USB card and his comments about the importance of USB power.

Well, I’m using a Plixir 5v DC 4A LPS which weighs 3.7kgs about 8lbs and has a massive custom made Noratel single winding torrodial transformer made in the UK.

So this setup with the AC power cable is over half the price of the 005 and half the weight!

There are many posts on the net about disconnecting the power supply from the Amanero board and creating a separate, individual power supply. This is what has essentially happened with the L.K.S.100 DDC.

Melm you got me wondering why the L.K.S. sounded better when the internal Amanero board had 3 custom oscillators as opposed to the L.K.S.’s 2 Crystek oscillators.

So short or drilling, cutting and soldering the 005’s Amanero board, it’s a solution.

So Voila, there you have it!

https://www.plixirpower.com/products/plixir-elite-bdc-2a-4a-6a

@lordmelton I think you have this the wrong way around. When one is optimizing usb its not the Amanero board you're supplying external PS to. What you're doing is isolating the USB OUT of server and applying dc power to it, In debjit case that JCAT card is mounted on motherboard inside server. In my case I use separate streamer (Sonore OpticalRendu) which is also usb renderer/Roon endpoint. In my case this is galvanically isolated from server by FMC which then goes to OR. My OR is dc powered by $1k Uptone JS2 and $1k power cord into my DIY modified BPT power conditioner with Oyaide R1 outlets and Mundorf caps.

So, keys are getting whatever port out of server galvanically isolated and quality power. Servers are noisy devices, usb direct off motherboard powered by motherboard power supply is second rate. One has to optimize all ports auditioned to create fair test. The Amanero usb board within 005 is already galvanically isolated.

I feel the need to repeat myself here. The vast majority of off the shelf servers out there DO NOT optimize usb, usb port simply comes off motherboard, motherboards are extremely noisy devices, especially the all in one type, those with cd rippers and on board storage. To get optimized usb one must then also purchase a usb renderer or I can call it improver, this galvanically isolates usb from motherboard, some have built in lps, others have dc port for external power. This will cost anywhere from lets say $400 at low end,  multiples of $1k at top end. One must budget for both the server and the usb improvement to get top notch usb.

The only usb ports on servers that both galvanically isolate AND provide for external power supply are ATX board servers, these take the JCAT and Pink Faun usb cards and have provision for external dc  power. One can also NOT use the usb port out of the second rate usb port servers, and use network switch and separate streamer. There's also option of optical output servers, very few of these in market. The other option is what lordmelton did.

To finalize, if one's dac has top notch usb board, usb is most likely best route to take, but one must optimize to reach full potential of that board. Big payoff in optimizing the usb out of server. Lower noise floor provided by galvanic isolation and clean power results in higher resolution and more natural presentation. The improvement is well worth the money spent!

@lordmelton I am not sure what server you are running. Its possible that the server doesn't have a good optimized usb implementation and that is why you prefer the i2s ? With a good usb implemented on the server side, the tables can turn up-side down or you may not feel that i2s is an improvement. If you want to experiment more on the usb side, try a Innous PhoenixUSB. Yes, its expensive but good stuff. Alternatively, you can replace you server with Innous Statement server which has the Phoenix implemented inside and much more.

https://innuos.com/phoenix-usb/

@sns +1 on your post. This is exactly what I was trying to say in my earlier post as well. There is much to be had from the USB and with the right implementation it will sound very good.

Pink Faun builds an I2S bridge (similar to USB card) which can be used with any ATX motherboard with PCIe slots. This for folks on the DIY route.

I wanted to try one for a long time when I had PS Audio DS and the Terminator but it had limitations with the sample rate - when I was looking at it earlier yrs back, it supported upto 192Khz and no DSD.

https://www.pinkfaun.com/shop/bridge/69-4502-pink-faun-i2s-bridge.html

Yes to the above, and I did neglect to mention the possibility of simple usb renderers, not streamers, which means one can use server with non optimized usb port connect it to usb renderer which then connects to dac. The simple usb renderer has only usb in usb out, streamer renderer has ethernet or optical in, usb out. Also there are streamer/dacs in which case internal streamer of dac will provide the galvanic isolation, hopefully good power supply. This what my Okto Dac stereo did with internal raspberry pi. PS Audio network card does this, although differing opinions on it's efficacy. Playback Designs supposedly has nice implementation.

Lordmelton is running Aurender server, in previous post I questioned this as Aurrender only states in literature that port being optimized and being clocked. So it appears somewhat optimized with the clock, but still running directly off motherboard and getting power from the server power supply. So appears somewhat better than standard, but not what I'd call optimized.

While I've not researched this, I've heard of usb/network converters in which case one could make server work like mine with the two network ports, one for network input, one for output. This would also bypass the usb. So one can do this with the single network port with separate streamer by using network switch which then feeds streamer. But then optimizing this then becomes necessary, which means audiophile switch with good lps, more money, complexity.

So, what we have here is two levels of servers in regard to usb implementation. There are the non optimized usb servers, which are generally cheaper, these would include NUC's  Raspberry Pi's, and non atx boards in most off the shelf servers, may be forgetting other solutions. So then, need to add streamers, audiophile switches or usb renderers to get optimal usb solution. Then there are the top shelf servers with usb optimization built in, no need for any add ons of any kind, these would be servers like Innuous Statement, Wadax, Taiko. There are also top flight servers made to be used with streamers, personally I like the Antipodes K40,41 here. I suggest best implementation for these kinds of servers is having a SECOND ethernet port, forget the usb in server altogether, many good choices for usb renderer/streamers. This is route I take.

Just to explain, atx motherboards are essentially made for MS Windows machine. The reason these aren't used is likely because of prohibitive cost to fully optimize. The off the shelf atx server would be unaffordable for vast majority. But then atx boards do have the ability to be the ultimate best server to my way of thinking. You can massively optimize every single port, you can run hugely powerful processors if  dsp is your thing, you can have the absolute best implementation of power supplies for each and every critical section (atx boards have various voltage and amperage requirements for individual sections of computer). You can run Windows OS which some claim best, you can run Linux. So DIY atx server can compete, perhaps even beat the Wadax's and Taiko's of the world, although I would say that very tall task.

@sns I have the Aurender N20 which as you can see in the pic has it's own USB solution, which is contained in the box marked Aurender behind the USB output. I don't know what isolation or optimisation has been used but thought has gone into it.

I am feeding signal only USB to the L.K.S. USB/I2s DDC and I2s over RJ45 to the 005. This sounds better than USB or XLR or HDMI into the 005. It's very natural, detailed and dynamic to name just a few.

This is a very strong testament to the 005 because according to Aurender XLR and SPDIF outputs are superior to USB.

I'm extremely happy with this setup. The best sound I've ever had in my system and I've still got five SR Purple fuses to fit.

All comparisons were done using the SSD of the Aurender N20, not streaming, for repeatable accuracy.

@lordmelton I only went by Aurrender's own literature is describing their usb out port. I'd think they'd give us some more information if they were doing any more than what they state. Tell us what type of clocking and whether discreet powered. I suspect the power issue is weakest part of implementation. You've heard the positive impact of quality power with the I2S unit, you should provide same for usb prior to concluding one is preferable to other.

By the way, I'm not concluding I2S COULD not be superior to usb, both have inherent liabilities, and I've not heard all possible connections and equipment. Far too many variables in streaming to come to many hard and fast conclusions. It would be nice if you could get something like the Phoenix usb renderer for a more equitable comparison, I for one would be very interested.

@sns Yes, It would be nice if Aurender gave us more info about their USB but once I taped over the +positive in the USB cable the sound got a real boost. Of course this will depend on what DAC you are using.

However from a technical perspective and I've had a lot of experience with clocks and re-clockers, the Phoenix does look interesting.

I have only proven so far that a pristine separate power supply for the USB board can make a tremendous difference.

If the onboard USB board in the 005 was supplied independently with a LPS that would make a similar or better difference, I'm sure.

I can only imagine what we would get if the so modified 005 was also fed by a Phoenix too. I'm sure it would be incredible.

If I can get a Phoenix on demo or at least hear one I'll report back. With it's USB frequency timed 24Mhz clock and top end LPS it's gotta sound good.

@lordmelton  Taping over the power leg on usb has had variable results in my experience. I've continually heard less effect as my entire network has evolved, to the point where today I couldn't reliably tell you if taped off or not.

The idea of powering usb boards in dacs off external ps is intriguing, don't believe I've ever seen it done. Regardless, I2S has same liability, if indeed it is liability.

Whatever way your favored connection turns out, we do know from many users usb provides very fine sound quality from 005. If I2S sounds fine, just great, gives us another route to go with.

All 005 users also owe it to themselves to try optical solutions.

@sns

I’ve also tried taping over USB pin 1 with no effect before I realized what was going on in th 004. Obviously there’s nothing in the LKS or Musetec at the other end of line 1, so taping has no point.

As for power. The LKS 004 had all but the transformer of an LPS on a card that was placed above the Amanero Board. A 5V tap of the 50 Watt transformer powering the digital side provided the power to that board. A couple of people at head-fi actually mounted a separate small 5V transformer in the case connected directly to the AC power. I don’t think this mod was particularly popular. My recollection is that folks considered the general nature of the power for the board to be fine. IIRC someone tried a Singxer USB to I2S device and it didn’t outperform the on-board Amanero system. That was in the early days when people were wondering whether to buy the less or more expensive version of the 004. Mods, though. for the board above the Amanero seemed to be popular and worthwhile. But it’s been a while as I haven’t followed the LKS discussion at all since getting the Musetec. What seems clear is that fitting a much more powerful system for USB to I2S into the case called for Musetec to reengineer the whole thing and come up with the super capacitor solution.

I believe what I am reading about here IIUC is not a comparison of the USB input with the I2S input. It seem to me rather a comparison of 2 USB inputs, one using the internals of the Musetec USB system and the other using the separate LKS system, both feeding I2S into the internals of the DAC.

I have offered my thoughts on this elsewhere in this thread.

@melm On the taping thing, that makes sense for the Musetec and 004 as I had tried the tape thing with 004 prior to 005 purchase and same thing, couldn't be sure I heard difference. Now, I did do the tape thing with previous Auralic Vega, which also has very nice usb implementation, thought I heard more of a difference. Imagination or real? I came to realize over time that perhaps it was futile to tape over pin since the self powered element, still thought it better theoretically to keep whatever possible contamination out. As mentioned before, not sure I hear difference.

You are absolutely correct as to comparing one usb to another IF USB BEING USED ANYWHERE IN CHAIN. DUH, staring us directly in face.  While I couldn't recall, this was part of my thinking in not even attempting to use my Singxer SU6, it was only the Amanero internal usb I was bypassing, knew it was better than usb board in Singxer. 

@lordmelton I just looked through some threads and can't find, but I assume you couldn't use I2S directly out of Aurrender because of pin incompatibility? This would be ACTUAL  true comparison. Perhaps the entire ramifications of what you're actually doing  has escaped you in excitement to try this new setup? Sometimes the mind does funny things what with expectation bias. Do some more comparisons and report back. Theoretically, using the Amanero board should be much better than that LKS, also adding complexity. The only advantage would be the external LPS. If what you report remains true, I'd find the usb within Aurrender highly suspect. This actually fits in with my research and experience, the typical usb ports on vast majority of servers SUCK. Get the Phoenix and hear what usb is really capable of.

@melm The taping thing is to stop interference between the USB power supply conductors and the signal conductors. Nothing to do with the Amanro Board.

I got a very good result so my USB output must be very noisy.

@sns I would like to take I2s directly out of the Aurender and I think this could be possible because Oppo Mod in Korea is doing this for Oppo players. I will contact them. I'd love to try the Innous USB DDC but it's not going to happen just yet.

I've just ordered a WW Starlight 0.5m RJ45 and 0.6m Furutech NCF RJ45, both for I2s. Going to see if the shorter lengths make a difference. PS Audio recommends 0.5m or less.

There has been no imagination or beliefs of expectation, all the improvements have been very obvious and I've switched back to USB several time for confirmation and it's well below the SQ of I2s.

For $200 the L.K.S. is well worth a try. Soon we should have a report from the chap who ordered the Sonore Digital.

I believe lordmelton’s positive experience with the LKS DDC. The LKS converts and reclocks the digital signal. And perhaps more importantly, it does this powered by its own power supply that is separate from the DAC’s power supply. The LKS can perform its singular function without drawing power away from the DAC’s other responsibilities. I think there would be less noise kicked back to the DAC’s power supply as well. Over the last year or two, I’ve appreciated first hand the sonic benefits of DDC type devices that have great clocks and their own separate special power supplies. The list includes such devices as the Innuos Phoenix USB, audiophile switches, and the Ediscreation Fiber Box II that lordmelton also enjoys. I would throw in the Grimm MU1 streamer into that mix as well. Many folks know that separates sound better than an integrated device. I now believe this applies to DDC type devices as well.

The LKS converts and reclocks the digital signal. And perhaps more importantly, it does this powered by its own power supply that is separate from the DAC’s power supply.

I am not aware of ANY DDC in the market, regardless of price, that does this. I don’t think any DDC consumes from DAC’s power supply. In fact it would be very awkward to do it. Sometimes the USB is bus powered which means it draws <= 500ma (or <= 900ma for usb3) from the source.

I want to report my experience using a sonore ultradigital between my aurender A10 with I2s output into my 005, versus straight usb.  I received the sonore several days ago.  Upon initial installation, my immediate reaction after 5 seconds of music was that the music was more focused and detailed with greater resolution and a slightly more enhanced sense of ease.   Granted, I love my system using usb. 

Nevertheless, I have left the sonore in for several days and have listened through it for about 12 hours.  This morning, I listened to several very familiar and well recorded cuts (Guy Clark, The Dark, and Punch Brothers, Pride of Man) and then bypassed the sonore and again plugged my usb cable directly into the 005 and listened to the same cuts again.  I then swapped back to the sonore.  I can definitively say I prefer my system using the sonore.

On the Dark, it is easier with the sonore to hear the beautiful and subtle guitar playing of Darrell Scott in the right channel, and the harmony vocals are easier to distinguish individually.  Similarly, on Pride of Man, it is easier to hear the playing and harmony vocals of Chris Eldridge, sometimes deep in the mix, using the sonore. 

This is somewhat surprising but I'm going to believe my ears.

I am wondering, however, if I can get further gains with a different DDC, for example a Singxer SU-6, which isn't that much more expensive that the sonore. Thoughts and experiences?   I may order one and give it a shot.

This is a crazy hobby.    

@debjit_g  I think there may be some confusion. The L.K.S Audio USB-100 USB Audio Interface  can be purchssed with a separate linear power supply, the LPS-25-USB. I don't think the description meant that the power was from usb.

The LKS can perform its singular function without drawing power away from the DAC’s other responsibilities. I think there would be less noise kicked back to the DAC’s power supply as well.

 

@debjit_g I think there may be some confusion. The L.K.S Audio USB-100 USB Audio Interface can be purchssed with a separate linear power supply, the LPS-25-USB. I don’t think the description meant that the power was from usb.

@dbb There is no bus powered ddc that I am aware of which draws power from the DAC. Typically all of them are powered from the source. When ddc have their own power supply, which many does, the vbus is typically used for a handshake on the receiving end. Most DDCs doesn’t output USB but when it does, like the Innous PhoenixUSB, the transmitting end and depending on the DAC, the power is either drawn from the vbus or with its own external power supply when available. Moreover when the DDC is not outputting USB, like the L.K.S, there is no way to draw power from other transmit interface, like i2s, or AES/EBU or SPDIF.

In any case, they don’t draw anything from the DAC. Its the receiving end that draws the power, for example, in earlier USB based DACs, the USB board would be bus powered from its source, typically  a music server or a streamer or a ddc but designers have gotten smart and use their own power supplies to power them nowadays.

@car123 though I don't have direct experience with ultradigital but I have had Sonore products, Singxer and other DDCs before. I would venture a guess and say that a Singxer or a Denafrips would be at a much higher level than the ultradigital. Since you prefer the I2S route, I think you will get better results with better DDCs. Its worth a shot.

All above just goes to show how weak usb ports directly attached and powered by motherboards are. Even the Aurrender with it's partially optimized usb not good enough. Noise is the critical thing with streaming, until we see optimized usb vs. I2s with 005 we're relying on conjecture for which is best.

And then we have my setup which ignores any usb or I2S within server, which adds another conversion within relatively noisy server  Ethernet out of server means everything external and discreet lps powered. This setup has far exceeded my best prior optimized server usb solutions. And this prior to optical optimization with OpticalRendu, OR brought futher substantial gains. With so many options nearly impossible to have direct comparisons.

A couple other things I've learned from John Swenson and others, is one wants signal in server the least amount of time with the least amount of processes running. This means fast processor, efficient motherboard, best power and optimized OS. Noise is the enemy of streaming resolution and more natural presentation. Minimize signal contamination is name of game, the above experiences prove the validity of running processes outside server where noise can be better controlled. For those running Roon, separating core from endpoint is commonly heard as superior, again we are minimizing server processes and running them outside in quieter environment.

@car123  Hi, I'm glad you had a positive experience with the Sonore. If you are looking to take it to the next level (I2s) may I suggest you try out the L.K.S. USB to I2s DDC. Reason being it has a RJ45 I2s output which I have found to be superior to HDMI. This could be for various reasons, cable model used etc.

However there is no doubt in my mind at the moment that RJ45 is best in my system.

Hot Rodding the L.K.S. with a top flight DC LPS such as Plixir, Farad, Ediscreation to name a few and a quality AC cable will really surprise you with the results.

Please do not be dismissive of the L.k.S. because it's low priced. It's quality.

Your next option could be the Matrix X which has a big following over on the PS Audio Forum for converting USB to I2s to feed into PS Audio's Direct Stream DAC. Custom cable required.

Negative is no RJ45 I2s.

https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/matrix-x-spdif-2-32bit-768khz-dsd512-hifi-audio-usb-interface

Last is the Audio GD, again no RJ45 I2s and very heavily engineered and will require a custom cable to the 005.

http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/DI20HE/DI20HEEN.htm

Since most I2s is HDMI it's good to have more than one input and/or RJ45.

Happy Listening

@sirnui Hi, I see that you have used the Innous USB DDC. What is your evaluation of it?

It has a very good LPS and a custom clock for the USB DDC.

Has anyone tried a Matrix X-SPDIF2 with the DA005 via the HDMI interface? If so, impressions regarding the sound?

@car123 

I'd like to understand what you are doing, but I haven't quite made it.  Perhaps you can help.  

As I understand it the Sonore is a DDC and has a USB in and an I2S out.  The Aurender is a combination server and DAC with analog outs, a USB out and ethernet and optical in.  

Are you comparing [ethernet into the Aurender with its USB out to the Musetec] on one hand to [ethernet into the Aurender with its USB out to the Sonore and its I2S into the Musetec] on the other?

If not, perhaps you can describe it for us from the beginning to the end of each try.

Thanks.

@debjit_g I would like to clarify and reword my last post.  

When I wrote that post, I had in mind what melm said: "I believe what I am reading about here IIUC is not a comparison of the USB input with the I2S input. It seem to me rather a comparison of 2 USB inputs, one using the internals of the Musetec USB system and the other using the separate LKS system, both feeding I2S into the internals of the DAC."

Viewing the comparison in that way is interesting and it made me think what in my experience would explain why the L.K.S Audio USB-100 DDC could sound better than the Amanero board built inside the 005. 

Some potential advantages I see are:

1. As viewed from the DAC chip, the electrical noise from the DDC will be less than the electrical noise from the built-in Amanero board because the DDC is farther away from the DAC chip.  
2. The DDC has its own power supply and this has a number of benefits including...
   1. The DAC's power supply is freed from the task of powering the USB to I2S function, which should allow it to better supply power to other parts of the DAC.
   2. The electrical noise generated from the DDC should have a smaller impact to the DAC's power supply compared to the Amanero board because the Amanero board is connected to the DAC's power supply and the DDC is not.
3. The DDC has a singular task to convert one digital signal to another and if its fed by a very good power supply, it alone will take full advantage of that power supply.  Usually, the better the power supply, the better the performance of the DDC.  In this way, the performance of the DDC is scalable and its theoretical performance ceiling may be higher than a static built-in solution like the 005's Amanero board.
4. The addition of a DDC means adding a reclocker and if the DDC has a well built clock, this can have benefits downstream to the DAC.  Signal integrity may be better.

I can list the drawbacks of the DDC as well but in my experience, choosing the right Digital-In to Digital-Out type devices can create wonderful sonic improvements.

For these types of devices I look for a great clock usually of the OCXO variety and a special built power supply that is built inside the device itself to eliminate external DC cables.  It's a winning combination and the sonic improvements have not been subtle for me.

@lordmelton As you know, I no longer use USB but if I ever do go back to it, I would strongly consider buying back the Innuos Phoenix USB.  I would rate it as one of the most joyful USB devices I've owned.  When I first installed the Phoenix USB, I already had the opticalRendu streamer and the Uptone ISO Regen chained together.  I added the Phoenix USB to the end of that chain and the joy factor went up a notch or two.  The improvement was obvious and the music became even more addictive.  I may be overstating it a little here but everything improved.  The Phoenix USB was the device that taught me the power of a great clock and a well built internal power supply.

@sirnui Hi, So are you also using the L.K.S. DDC or another DDC?

Great write up BTW.

Talking about clocks many people say an external master clock only works for SPDIF but if I disconnect it from my Aurender everything gets deflated.

I'm only using USB out to the L.K.S. now and with some SR Purple Fuses in my system I'm getting the best sound ever.

melm:

I am comparing ethernet into the Aurender with its USB out to the Musetec (obviously bypassing the Aurender's DAC) with ethernet into the Aurender with its USB out to the Sonore and its I2S into the Musetec.  Even given the additional complexity and cabling, the sound is better using the Sonore.  

I would love to try the Innuos Phoenix but I don't feel like spending that much cash on a DDC.   I did order a Singxer SU-6.  It may take a while to arrive but hopefully it will get here within the Sonore 30 day return window.

I recognize that not everything in audio is predictable and also that different does not always mean better to all listeners. That being said, my own biases lead me to try to make full use of the USB to I2S in the Musetec with the advantages that its designer has given us. These advantages include an excellent USB board, three exceptional clocks, a sophisticated battery-like DC power supply, and the shortest possible I2S connection.

At one point in my own DAC adventure I looked carefully into devices that went directly from ethernet to I2S. Such a device would bypass any USB connections, cables, etc. I quickly learned that while such a device might provide a theoretical benefit, in practice it would likely provide less than I already had. Beekhuyzen got the same result.

So my own road has been to try to provide very high quality USB signal into the DAC. I keep my media on a NAS and I use JRiver on a small lap-top. This has eventually led me to digital bridges (ethernet in, USB out) run as DLNA devices. My first was using an Oppo 501 (though coax out) much as car123 was using his Aurender, the only difference perhaps being the DLNA control through JRiver. Not saying here that the Oppo is equal to the Aurender, but each used in this very odd way they might be comparable.

I soon discovered that this route into the DAC could be improved dramatically using devices more sophisticated, and with USB out, than using a small part of a DAC-streamer. I eventually wound up with an SOtM sMS-200ultra Neo and an SBooster power supply for it. Under the control of JRiver this device reclocks and otherwise decrapifies the data from the NAS and sends it directly to the DAC. It is hardly the last word in devices performing this function, but I am delighted with it. Furthermore, it makes full use of what the Musetec provides.

The other part of this puzzle is the section of a USB cable, and they can be very, very different. More on this later, with at least one surprising result.

Oops. That should be: 

The other part of this puzzle is the selection of a USB cable, and they can be very, very different. More on this later, with at least one surprising result.

@debjit_g

If you decide to buy the WW hdmi, be patient to give at least 500 hrs to it. Though I don't have direct experience with WW ethernet cables but the Starlight 8 is a good buy and not that expensive.

I managed to get a custom made WW Starlight CAT 8 Ethernet cable (The red one) it's about 0.4m, maybe a little less. Good price only $120.00

This cable is crystal clear, hyper detailed through clarity. You can hear every bass note being played. I can't say it's sterile or uninvolving just mega clear. I know it needs more burn in but for I2s it's too clear and revealing.

I've just received my 0.6m Furutech NCF Ethernet cable and that's put everything back in the zone, I can hear guitar distortion and fuzz pedals again.

So the WW Starlight is currently between my Ediscreation Fiber Box and Aurender N20. The Ediscreation has Bybee Purifiers and they seem to be taking the edge off the WW and it all seems to be balancing out nicely.

@lordmelton Right now I am not using any DDC. Over a year ago I bought my Grimm MU1 streamer and I found going straight from it to DAC with a single AES/EBU cable sounded better than my complex USB chain with multiple USB decrapifiers.  Interestingly, the MU1 has bonified DDC capabilities (e.g. it can convert toslink to AES) but I don't use it in this way for music listening.

My last experience with a DDC was a Denafrips Hermes clocked by a Denafrips Terminator Plus.  My complex USB chain fed the USB signal to the Hermes which then outputted an I2S signal via an HDMI cable to feed the T+. Testing this Hermes configuration against the MU1, I preferred the MU1. 

I would love to get my hands on a Denafrips Gaia to experiment with the MU1 and 005 but this is not high on my list.

On another topic, three SR Purple fuses are arriving today. I'm installing one each in the 005, the Benchmark LA4 preamp, and my Ferrum Oor headphone amp.  I will report back my results in a later date. 

I remain unconvinced of superiority of ddc devices using usb, still using usb, so most salient cause of change in sound is not exactly known. Two, is the sound indeed better or simply different.  We also need direct comparison of  optimized usb chain by these users. Until this criteria met I2S not proven to be superior to usb for 005, IMO.

I'm also very skeptical about the benefit of bypassing 005 internal usb board. First, it is one of the best out there, Melm  clarified some of the details. Two, in regard to usb board contamination of dac power supply, Melm also mentioned  004 experiments with transformer, while I haven't gone back to that thread, seems to have not added much if anything, and that with inferior usb board in that dac. Three, as I mentioned previously, I've seen a whole lot of experimentation with streaming, haven't come across much if any talk about usb boards contaminating dac power supplies or interfering with dac processes resulting in lowered sound quality. Now, this doesn't mean there may be theoretical losses, I believe the present bias to addressing what feeds dac is correct.

For me, a more compelling argument for I2S superiority to usb in 005 would have to be an optimized I2S port on server direct out to I2S in on 005. 

Complex usb setups are also not optimized IME, less is better, I believe straight wire concept applies to streaming chains. So many usb decrapifiers out there, how effective they are so chain dependent. Power supplies also come in many degrees of quality and effectiveness.

Premature at this point to make blanket statements about superiority of any single streaming solution, and this just for 005. In regard to other dacs, there may be another best solution for those dacs.  I always go back to whatever solution one goes for, optimization is key, purity is other, we shouldn't mix conversion protocols. In doing such a comparison we also have to keep in mind every single unique feature of our individual streaming solutions.

Funny thing, but I can understand how everyone here has come to their preference in streaming chains. I can at least understand the theoretical advantages and disadvantages of all these setups, I don't doubt the results are valid for each user.

@sirnui Oh, I remember now you bought the Grimm MU1. I have heard that streamer and it gave a very delicate sound very suited to classical type recordings.

It's been a constant battle between AES and USB for me until I got the LKS 100. Now I've stopped switching between them and I've got the sound that I want.

Regarding Purple fuses, if they are the wrong way around you will realise after about two hours that the bass has disappeared and the sound is without body.

The 005 has a Chinese tuning fuse inside already so you will get an improvement but not so much, however your pre-amp should get a massive boost. Only put one fuse in at a time to make sure they are correct.

@sns Hi, The only way for you and @melm to put this matter to rest is to get a LKS 100 and see for yourselves.

All I can say is it's the best sound I've ever heard in my system and it's significantly better than only USB. We all know that USB is jitter central so there are major changes at work here.

I've learned I2s has different requirements from regular Ethernet. Firstly I2s doesn't like the Telegartner cast alloy type plug headshells. Gold plated types give much better results.

Finally it's a much better sound, everything is multiplied, detail, texture, timing, soundstage, imaging....everything, not just a different sound.

Hello,
I am a user of 004, but I use an external USB-DDC instead of an internal USB-DDC. I use an old model called MX-U8, and make my own RJ 45 cable and connect it at a distance of 20 cm. I listened and compared many times, but the sound of the external one was better.
For your reference.

@lordmelton I'll never do the comparison unless I was using usb out of server, this is where my main beef with usb resides. You're still essentially using usb out of server, just switching LKS for Aurrender, to my mind you're comparing LKS and the external power supply to Aurrender usb as much or more than usb to I2S in 005.

In my setup I avoid ALL usb prior to OpticalRendu, I have totally optimized usb with total 100% galvanic isolation prior to usb using optical conversion, and have avoided any conversion schemes within server, server is only network device and place for Roon core and library. So server is minimal device, least imposition of noise or imprint on final sound, then 100% galvanic isolation of the maximally minimized noise emanating from server, and this noiseless signal being reclocked in OR using very good clocks and power supply (Uptone JS2), which is last thing in chain just prior to excellent usb board in 005.

End result for me is just incredible sound quality, so far above prior usb and ethernet schemes I've tried. I really have no motivation to ever use any usb out of a server again. If I did it would have to be custom atx build with totally optimized usb. 

Until you all have heard the advantage of forgetting server conversion using usb or I2S or any other conversion scheme you won't know what you're missing. I'll mention again, the only off the shelf server with a second ethernet port I'm aware of is Antipodes, otherwise custom atx build is only way. The way most servers are built today means they are main bottleneck to getting full potential out of streaming, assuming one has good network and dac.

For someone willing to experience this, try the Antipodes K50 for all in one server, K40 or 41 for server only with one's choice of streamer.

@sns Despite several people fully agreeing that they prefer the USB/I2s setup I find it quite disconcerting that you don’t believe us. I think the LKS 100 works so well is because it’s a simple design, basically straight through with quality Crystek 957 oscillators. I’m in an extremely happy place right now.

Let me explain my setup once again.

1. 5G Optical straight into my rack, terminated in my router.

2. 1.2m Furutech Ethernet from router to Ediscreation Extreme with Galvanic via Optical isolator.

3. 0.4m WW Starlight Ethernet to galvanically isolated RJ45 input on Aurender N20

4. From N20 Crystal Clear Cables USB without power conductor to LKS 100

5. LKS 100 to 005 via RJ45 Furutech 0.6m Ethernet cable.

I listen to my ripped CDs and SACDs, played from the N20 SSD, combined with Tidal/Qobuz. I am getting excellent results with all.

Again I would like to thank @debjit_g for his WW Ethernet recommendation, it really synthesizes with the Ediscreation Extreme. I guess I’ll get the Platinum soon. The Starlight is crazily good for the price.

@lordmelton Quite the contrary, look at my prior post, I presume what you're hearing is valid. My only issue is, and as Melm pointed out, since you still have usb in stream, you're comparing two usb solutions, at least to some degree. I have no arguments with subjective best solutions. It seems you're making claim I2S input superior to usb input with 005, I find that claim dubious until you've eliminated any usb in chain.

I'm curious as to some OBJECTIVE streaming guidelines, at least as it pertains to 005. I'd like to know if I2S or usb is best input on 005. I have ability to do some comparisons, but my setup is too unique to have validity for others. For those presently using usb or I2S out of servers I'd like to see exclusive I2S to usb  setup, both fully optimized. The only generalization I can make based on my experience is vast majority of usb setups aren't optimized due to usb server flaws, this gives great usb inputs on dacs a bad name. I hear far too much bad mouthing of dac usb, I believe it wrongheaded.

As things stand, at least Melm and I are getting fine results with usb, you and others? fine results with I2S, perhaps both are indeed great inputs, ok with me.

Fwiw, I think it's great to have multiple really good options, and impressions from people regarding what they've found to work well in the different approaches. Good discussion, imo.

As a result I at least plan to try a bit of both approaches - over time. I'm curious now about the potential of the I2S interface of the DA005, so I plan to try that once I get a chance to get some cables and bits and set it up and experiment a bit. I may even try an LKS USB-100. And then eventually I will likely give either ethernet to USB a try, and/or cleaner optimized USB output directly from a server.

(All of this will likely take a bit of time as I have as I have some other priorities - both in my audio system, and elsewhere. It should keep me entertained for a while though. Fun hobby :-)

I for one have been enjoying reading about everyone's experience with ALL of the different interfaces of the DA005 and upstream approaches, and I hope that everyone will continue to share their impressions and approaches.

I installed the three SR purple fuses last night. The way I like to do it, I burn in all system changes at the same time and then I would revert or change one thing at a time to determine if I like that one change or not.

I would like to share my methodology for initially installing the fuses. These SR fuses are directional. Based on my research, the "S" side of the fuse should connect to the Hot pin of the AC inlet. This is where the power is coming in. I used a digital multimeter to confirm which contact of the fuse housing had continuity with the Hot pin of the AC inlet. See diagram below as one looks at the AC inlet of the 005 with fuse and fuse holder removed:

           Ground

                ||
 Hot                  Neutral

  ||                         ||

Contact A       Contact B

 |-|                        |-|

In the diagram above, Hot had continuity with Contact A so I installed the fuse with the "S" side of the fuse near Contact A. I followed the same methodology for my preamp and headphone amp. These fuses are no where close to being broken in but first impressions are very important for me. I’ve never liked a system change long term if first impressions were bad.

Getting to the initial results, I’m keeping these Purple Fuses. They are the best fuses I’ve tried in my history with fuses The sound was more open and detailed. Bass and dynamics were still there if not slightly better than what I remember. On the downside, I sense more harshness from the system but I expect this to reduce once the breakin period is over.

Fwiw, I think it's great to have multiple really good options, and impressions from people regarding what they've found to work well in the different approaches. Good discussion, imo.

Agree 100%

Always good to learn and appreciate how various people construct their audio systems in the pursuit of better sound quality. There is a strong component of art in the mix.

Charles

@sns I guess someone will be along soon who has a true I2s output that can be switched between I2s and USB, we live in anticipation.

@sirnui Hi, The SR Purple fuses are directional but Ted Denney, CEO of SR says that direction cannot be guaranteed.

The Blue and Orange and most other fuses do not have this issue.

Two days ago I put a Purple fuse into a DC LPS and I was sure I got it right, but last night I just got a feeling something was missing. Swapped it around and BANG big change.

I suggest you leave your fuses as you have inserted them, then after 24 hours swap them around one at a time to be absolutely sure they are in the correct direction.

Please believe me it works.