More Bass

@mike_in_nc - so how do I go about doing this "Measuring" I once downloaded some room correction software and purchased a microphone off Amazon. I found the whole process beyond me and sent the microphone back. I would need help with this, for sure!

@audiorusty - my apologies, there are two 10" woofer, it's the mid-range that is 7"      There is bass and I'm not looking chest thumping stuff, it just doesn't hit as hard as I would expect. Maybe it's the sealed box that I'm not use to? I will heed some of your other advice and get back to you. Thank you. 

@arcticdeth +1

@audphile1 - yes, working on that. I'm just trying to finish up a major remodel which has led me to tear my rotator cuff, so it hurts to blink at the moment. Going to take a bunch of pain pills and maybe over the weekend, I will try to get that done. 

@navyachts picture speaks a thousand words. is there a way you can add a virtual system with pictures of room and current set up?

That will help with proper recommendations with your current and future setup. 

Let them break in hundred hours, great way to get great speakers. 
 

most haven’t a clue. 
first 30-50 hours, if don’t sound good, they sell em.

pAtience.  Break in, placement, 

took me weeks to get the bass I knew was there,   Many nights, moving, toeing, close, far from wall, one speaker in corner, which when sitting has more sound than other on left, which is next to open hallway' stairs, rooms,

mess w them, I would move a couple inches at a time, then sit, listen, 

took me a whe o get it just right, like the baby bears porridge 

recordings also matter, 

great speakers, enjoy!

maybe a small 12” sub, 

first I would tweak and listen.

my speakers took a solid 300 hrs to loosen and open up. 

Welp, there’s a number of published measurements showing this to be optimistic. As I noted elsehwere, I’ve found a couple of different models shown to be around 2 Ohms for most of the bass. This includes the SE and 20/20. Perhaps I’m misinterpreting the statement or the charts?

@erik_squires You have got the measurements for the wrong speaker. You keep bringing up the Focus series. He has the Signature SE. The Signature and Focus are not the same speaker. I don't believe I have ever seen impedance measurements of the Signatures.

I would have thought with the 7" woofers and a rated frequency response of 22-30K Hz, there would have been a bit more bass

Mr. Yachts,

You mention that you thought there should be a bit more bass, does this mean that the bass is non-existent or just not as loud as you expected it to be?  What are you trying to achieve, the more balanced bass that happens with classical and acoustic jazz or the chest thumping bass that you get with loud rock?

(although there is a couple of tunes I have played where there is some bass that is really deep and sounds all garbled,

I find this to be a troubling statement. The fact that you have played some songs that reproduced low bass, points a finger at the source material. Not all recordings were recorded well, especially pop/rock recorded prior to 1975 and the better your system the more this becomes apparent, but the fact that it sounded garbled would indicate that there is some kind of malfunction. There are a few things that would explain non-existent bass such as a room nulls, bad source material or out of phase wiring, but not the garbled sound. Is it possible one or more of the 10” drivers is not functioning properly? If you place your finger tips on the cone of each driver and push do they move easily? If there is a scraping sound or the driver does not move at all that would indicate a blown speaker. There also might possibly be a failing component in the crossover.

We have had Whisper, Focus, and Signature on site. I found that the Sigs were more balanced. They had good bass but not overpowering.

This statement leads me to believe that your amp is not part of the problem, but I don’t know if you mentioned to them the garbled tunes?

This tune “Flight of the Cosmic Hippo” by Bela Flack has some very low bass. If you can stream it or find a copy to play, please report back on how it sounded.

Also, the speakers could have accidentally been wired out of phase inside the cabinet by the manufacturer.

If I were to guess I would say you are clipping your amplifier. 4 Ohm speakers will surprise you with how much power you need to get the bass to rumble...

@erik_squires - Hi Erik, so I asked this directly of Legacy:

What is the minimum impedance of the Signature speaker, is it 2 ohms below 100 Hz?

Their response: "The signature line can go as low as 3.5 ohms"

So, pardon my ignorance, but what does all this mean? Thanks!

Welp, there’s a number of published measurements showing this to be optimistic. As I noted elsehwere, I’ve found a couple of different models shown to be around 2 Ohms for most of the bass. This includes the SE and 20/20. Perhaps I’m misinterpreting the statement or the charts?

For any speaker that goes down this low it means that with many amplifiers the bass output will often be depressed relative to the rest of the range. See the separate thread on the KEF Reference 1 standmount which has exactly this issue.

The solution is a high-current amplifier of which there are many at various price points, but your average integrated amplifier probably wont’ cut it. For sure, almost no tube amp will work here.

At 2 Ohms, an amplifier has to produce 2x the current (Amps) as at 4 Ohms, and 4x the current needed at 8 Ohms.

>> OK, how about 2 subs on the opposite wall 20’ away facing the back of the listening position? <<

More likely to help than placement right by the speakers. You’ll never really know unless you measure. We all think we have golden ears, but I for one find measurements more reliable than my ears, in that they don’t change from day to day. But I admit, I fine tune everything by ear -- after getting the basic setup right by measuring.

@steakster - @mike_in_nc 

OK, how about 2 subs on the opposite wall 20' away facing the back of the listening position? 

Now look at the specification for your amplifier.

Looks promising..

@erik_squires - Hi Erik, so I asked this directly of Legacy:

What is the minimum impedance of the Signature speaker, is it 2 ohms below 100 Hz?

Their response:  "The signature line can go as low as 3.5 ohms"

So, pardon my ignorance, but what does all this mean? Thanks!

"

That's always an option but you can make it work and it does take work. Is the view interruption too much? Is the wife unwilling to budge or are you unwilling to push? You've put money into it so you have to decide how "right" you want it. Some good stand mounts might be a better option but spend at least as much or more if you go that direction. Then, however you might end up with subs to get there bass wise. I think stand mounts can't push enough air for a room your size. Speaker positioning and related seating position is foremost to see what you have before you jump the shark.

OK, this is really starting to get depressing, beaten by a room.

Maybe @jeffseight has the best solution for me: "Is the trial period over?"

I'll still need some speakers though...

@navyachts I'd spend a lot more time setting those speakers up. With a room that wide you should be able to get them at least eight feet apart and one foot away from the wall is another speaker killer unless you have a brand designed to be against the wall. Wifey might object but you'll have to bite the bullet if you want to know what they are capable of.

and that problem being?

Wrote about it above. The speaker’s impedance < 100 Hz is far too low for a 4 Ohm speaker. If indeed this is a 2 Ohm speaker below 100 Hz it will require an abnormally stiff amp to sound good.

If you can’t find a review, call Legacy and see if they’ll tel you what the minimum impedance of the speaker was. Last option is to buy a DATS and measure the impedance yourself:  Alternatively, if you feel a little DIY get Room EQ Wizard and use the impedance measurement feature.

Two thoughts in agreement with @erik_squires and one about positioning:

1. If you don’t have an amp that can handle a low-impedance load, try one
2. Get some measurement capability, so you and others have a better idea of what’s going on
3. My thought about positioning subs is that if (1) is not the answer and you are dealing with room nulls, you will be frustrated perpetually by putting subs right next to the main speakers -- at least, if your goal is flat, extended bass. Unfortunately, there is no way around physics.

@erik_squires - "If it follows the same pattern however the issue will be straightforward" and that problem being?

@blisshifi - Thanks, I like your train of thought! I understand though that it's a crazy, pain in the butt deal to setting subwoofers up. Any tips or tricks? Also, in a subwoofer thread I recently started, @mike_in_nc states this:

" Not to be pedantic, but you do know? Subs often are used to help fill bass nulls, and the absolute worst placement for that is adjacent to the main speakers"

But, this is the only location I have to put the subs. Any thoughts?

@navyachts As mentioned, I owned both the Focus SE and Aeris. I found that smaller "full range speakers" and subs were the way to go for my room. With subs, you have better dedicated control of the bass through separate amps and are less limited to positioning the full-range speakers for bass balance. Also with the Focus, while the extra midrange is nice, the increase in the size of the drivers also increases the height of the Legacy Air Motion Transformers, which can be detrimental in sound quality for some if the tweeters are too high for their ears.

I don’t want to detract people from getting a Focus SE as it is a wonderful speaker and there are other benefits in addition to stronger bass, such as a richer midrange. But if you are already happy with the performance of the Signature SE aside from bass performance, upgrading to the Focus SE is not necessarily the answer. In my room, even with the Focus SE and Aeris, I preferred having subs due to the improved control, more even distribution of bass, and the benefits across the frequency spectrum I mentioned in an earlier post.

Sadly I can't find any data on the impedance curve of the original model.  If it follows the same pattern however the issue will be straightforward.

@navyachts

thanks Eric, for some reason when I click on the link you provide (as with some other links here) I don’t get redirected.  Any tips?

Same thing with links started happening to me about a month or two ago.  The way I can make links work now is to right click on the link, and select "open link in new tab".

From Coda:

"There should be no brake in for the amp or the speakers.  With the efficiency and impedance of the speakers there should be enough power with the V1.  We have had Whisper, Focus, and Signature on site. I found that the Sigs were more balanced.  They had good bass but not overpowering.  Whispers were also balanced.  The Focus on the other hand had a more enhanced bass.  I think it is expectation and the speaker.  Perhaps the Focus?"

I really don't want the hassle, expense and the size by moving up to the Focus... UGH!

Norton some speakers do change after break in some don’t.

When I don’t get enough bass, I will look on how much power the speakers needed, even cabling , room and speakers placement.

My speakers are similar to yours in specs anyway and since I'm a bass lover and rarely use my sub, I just use the tone controls on my pre-amp and get all the bass I want and can handle. Problem solved.

I personally don't believe in speaker "break-in" and think anything will change sound wise but know a lot of people do.

@highend64 - it would be awesome to do what you suggest, but we bought this house because it has a view, putting the speaker in the window, might just not go over to well. I'm just going to have to figure this out. Thanks

@blisshifi - OK, I will start a new thread with some sub-woofer questions! Thx

@navyachts 

Yes break-in period might help but what you described about your room layout, it might be the culprit. I dont know if this possible in your situation but have you tried moving your system so the sound is projected into the kitchen? At the current position, do you have a third wall behind you?

I would agree with @hickamore on the bass performance of the Signature SE and the benefit of using subs to supplement. I have previously owned both the Focus SE and Aeris. In both cases, while they let out big sound, they did not offer the benefits that quality, properly integrated subs do. I eventually moved away from the larger speakers and into better fitting speakers for the room accommodated by subs. Not only do the subs handle any missing bass information, but it also widens and deepens the soundstage and cleans up room modes and the full frequency spectrum, resulting in additional clarity and an improved performance across the board. Though I moved on from the Aeris being my speaker, I have since become a dealer and now am an official Legacy Audio installer. With that in mind, I have a custom pair of Signature SE coming for my floor in a week or two, as I realize it is more than enough to fill the space when properly integrated with subs, as demonstrated by a customer who traded in their Legacy Classic HD a few months back. Even that was enough in my room when partnered by two subs.

Measurements will also be very helpful, as is walking around the room as others suggest. But especially with the opening to the kitchen on the left side, subs and proper integration will be your best friend in this scenario.

Also, the problem is not with your amp, so disregard anyone who says so. The CODA No.8 is stable down to 2 ohms easily, and Legacy used to use CODA amps for their speakers prior to making their own with ICE modules.

It's true that the optimal place for your speakers is often not the optimal place to have good bass.The Amroc room calculator shows you instantly which bass frequencies are causing the problem. A couple of subs can be unobtrusive close to the wall in their optimal spots. One of my subs that can't be tucked away behind furniture has a cloth cover that blends with the wall.It's an option to think about anyway.

@steakster @daledeee1 - thanks, I will put on my walking shoes when I get home tonight!

@erik_squires - not sure why the link doesn’t work, but I did find the article by search. This is for the Legacy Focus SE which is the model above mine. 

I didn't except so many great responses, very informative and lots of good ideas, thank you!

I have reached out to the manufacturers and am awaiting their response.

@blisshifi - the room is 24' x 15' with a 12' vaulted ceiling (the long ways). Then there is a kitchen to the left of the speaker, so the room is L-shaped. Drapes cover the window to the left which run pretty well the whole length of the wall. The manual says 1 - 3 feet off the back wall, so being a multi-function room, it's pretty hard to get the speakers more than 1 foot out. They are 6 1/2' apart, slightly toed in and I sit about 9 feet away. So, there is 8' feet of space behind me.

The room does suck, but acoustic treatment are expensive and lack WAF. I'd hate to spend a bunch of money on them and still have a base problem, so I like the idea of a couple of small subs, or better yet the room correction suggestion.

@erik_squires - thanks Eric, for some reason when I click on the link you provide (as with some other links here) I don't get redirected. Any tips?

Legacy Signature SE user for 6 years. All very good suggestions above, and they may work for you. Certainly it's too soon to judge before yours get 100+ hours of good workout.  I personally can't do without LOW bass, whereas the SE's are designed with a peak at 35Hz and a sharp rolloff below that. The "22Hz" rating presupposes optimal conditions which your room is unlikely to duplicate and is down many dB at that frequency anyhow. Subs did the trick for me, and they need NOT be pricy Legacys. Although placement certainly matters, with 3-4' from front wall being optimal for me, to my ears subs were still required. Legacy recommends running the SEs full range and setting the subs accordingly. I have followed that advice with satisfactory results.

I think I’ve found your culprit. These speakers have about 2 Ohms for most of the bass region. A 4 Ohm rating is significantly optimistic.

They will require strong amplifiers capable of driving such difficult loads.

This thread is so long because of the lack of measurements.  I strongly recommend you get OmniMic or Room EQ Wizard and measure at your listening location.

Yes, the lack of room treatment can make the room sound far too bright, but it can also have bad room modes.

Look at the AM Acoustics room mode simulator and try to keep your speakers and listening chair out of the lowest modes.

Those speakers are not short on bass.  Could be a room issue but more likely it is your personal taste, which I am not criticizing.  My point is you want more bass than all speakers  will provide.

Easier than a sub is an equalizer and that speaker has the horsepower to give you what you want.

Jerry

You want Bass.... Hook up a Mcintosh Ma6450 to your speakers. This amp has 4 times the bass I've ever heard on any other amp. When I use it, I have to turn the bass almost all the way down. You will never have to say I don't have enough bass again. Oh, I doubt that you would want to get a sub with it too.

@navyachts Can you provide the dimensions of your room including ceiling height? I agree with others on the sealed vs ported design. Especially if the Signature SE have more than 3-4’ feet around them without walls, the 22Hz sealed will not charge the room as much as a ported speaker at 30Hz, let alone a quality sealed sub that goes down to 16-19Hz which is placed right in the corners. But it should provide detailed, accurate bass. I am now a Legacy Audio installer and have a pair of custom Signatures shipping soon. In my 19x23 room with 18’ slanted ceilings, I plan to use them 3-4’ from the front walls with subs in the corners. 

Sealed boxes can have tighter and faster bass and generally require more power, but you already have it, so no amp issue here. Four 10inch woofers is quite a lot of area to push air and your speakers should extend well below 30hz.

All is in the positioning, speaker or listening, and room space. Break in time can help but i would not expect to be the limiting factor.

I bet solving the above will get you there. It takes effort.

I'd give them more break-in time and make sure the speaker cables are in-phase. Even if the red and black ends of the speaker cables look like the correct + and - hook-up experiment and see if it makes a difference.

@dadork 

Thanks for that information.  I won't be needing the Octobass as there is no musical signal down there.

You might try it on the 60s and 70s EMI LPs of recordings at the Kingsway Hall London, where the trains running on the subway below can be heard rumbling.  Some carts give a reasonable level signal that low; eg Ortofon claims 20Hz for the Anna at only -1.5dB (I wonder....).  If that's right there may be some output at 16Hz but you are getting very close to the resonance zone, so make sure you're no just listening to resonance.  Anyway, if it all works, you will get a very accurate impression of a subway train, if that's your bag. 

@clearthinker The Octobass goes down to 16hz.

Guessing you’ll be advised by Legacy to give them some time. One option may be to aim them facing each other, connect out of phase and play some bass heavy content non stop for a few days at a reasonable volume. Hopefully in that manner the process won’t be too intrusive. 

+1 on speaker break in time. Also you might consider measuring your room with REW. It’s free and would help you evaluate your room. Good luck !

Sealed vs ported plus room setup acoustics probably hold the key. The manufacturer can help you with room/speaker setup and ported vs sealed expectation.

For me, subwoofer setup was in itself instructive, because I wanted bass without noticing the addition, except when doing an A/B. If I were use to booming, less tight bass my requirements might have differed. Also, integration of subwoofers is likely easier with your floor standing speakers vs smaller speakers. I realize that exceptions exist, so you do have the option to add subs in the future. My speakers have a 3dB down point similar to your speakers and my RELs were easy to integrate once I treated the room.

I think you are muddling the quantity of bass with its quality.

Any fool can give you bags of booming bass for beans but quality down there at 20Hz costs real money and you will get huge speakers as well.

By the way, there is no musical instrument that goes down as low as 20Hz so down there you will be reproducing mostly noise.

Add Furutech Rhodium plugs to one of you power cords if possible. you may want more ones you try them. That will help to boost bass. NCF ones are the best. 

@ricmech23

+1, I would recommend a Martin Logan Unison pre-amp/streamer/dac with ARC room correction. ARC would make your speakers sing and integrate the bass with the room, you would be stunned. On sale now at like half off:

50% off at $199:

You could try to add an equalizer, shiit loki seems like a great choice plus I think you get 15 days to return it. 

@soix thanks I will contact both Legacy & Coda tomorrow.

@daledeee1 - same

@nevada_matt - interesting, thanks