More Bass

@dave_b -- OK, thanks for the tips.

Also, biggest mental hurdle I had to get over was to think I couldn’t use an EQ…having an EQ will save you tons of money and give you satisfaction with all your music.

Just noticed JBL HDI 3800’s on sale…they have a full, dynamic and visceral sound with clean smooth extended highs.  Easy to drive and place with great soundstaging.

Let the fun begin…don’t be afraid to try stuff that isn’t Audiophile approved ;)  

Music Direct is reputable and honors their trial period guarantee without hassles.

@dave_b - Appreciate it Dave, the Sigs are heading back so I’m on the hunt...again

@jeffseight - "Is the trial period over?" Turned out to be the best advice of the thread, thank you!

Been down this road many times…simplified my life and found that truly enjoyable sound isn’t that complicated.  Played around with free trial speakers and discovered that a good Horn/Dynamic speaker design can be insanely addictive.  Two of the best moderately expensive ones I have used and enjoyed immensely are were the JBL 4429’s and the Klipsch Cornwall IV’s.  They delivered smooth, natural and lifelike sound/dynamics without phase issues or bizarre impedance curves.

I just bought Focus XD three months ago.  Their bass is just out of this world.  Best bass I have ever experienced in my audiophile life for over 30 years.  I had Thiel CS7.2, Revel Salon 2, Alon Exotica with Thunderbolt sub before.  But the Focus XD blew them all away in the bass department.  My room is 25x14 feet with 14 feet vaulted ceiling, and also an opening in the left to the kitchen behind my listening chair.  My room is very similar to yours.  Legacy is famous for great bass.  I am very confused with your situation.  However, XD has an internal amp for the bass.  I use external amps for the mids and highs.  Signature SE should provide plenty of bass even though it doesn't have an internal amps.

My Focus XD is 7.5 feet apart, 7 feet away from back wall and I am sitting about 10 feet from the speakers.  I have Conrad Johnson preamp that inverts phase.  I have to invert phase again at the speaker terminal.  If I didn't do that, bass was absent.  

You don't need break-in.  Bass was awesome from day one.  Signature SE is 4 ohm.  Legacy used to use Coda amps for their demos at shows.  So Coda should not be a problem.  I don't know Coda.  Is it configured to drive 4 ohm?  You said your speakers are only one foot from back wall?  If so, it should have plenty of bass since it is sealed.  

Just chatted with a Coda/Legacy dealer (third party). Please see the posted chat below. They have no problem with the speakers being up against the back wall.

I also moved the speakers out 2 feet and they really didn’t sound much different that 8" off the wall, go figure.

Hello, with regards to a Coda pre & power amp driving Legacy Signature SE, many who have seen my room say I am going to have nothing but trouble acoustically due to numerous factors. Some suggested going active as with the Signature XD. Taking the room out of the equation would the XDs sound as good on SEs with $8K worth of Coda gear?

* Hi, happy to help!

Thanks, I’m sure you’ve heard both

* Yes, we have both all of the Legacy and Coda here. What kind of a room are we looking at? And I assume we’re talking about the 8?

Multifunction room with lots of hard surfaces, lot’s of furniture and no room to pull the speakers out from the wall. 16’ wide 22 feet long slight vaulted ceiling (lengthwise) and yes, I have the 8.
Some say the actives can go right up tight to the back wall, what do you think?
Speakers would be about 6 1/2’ apart. Listening position about 8’ back.
I’ve always preferred separates just not sure if this is the right place to do it

* Both the XD and SE can be placed the same distance from the wall. The internal amp is the difference, and the construction/polar pattern are the same.
A sealed cabinet is always able to go close to the wall, and both the XD and SE are the same sealed cabinet.
An 8 is enough power for a Sig SE. Your room accommodates Focus SE, so if you’re seeking more bass output, you’d want the Focus SE.

OK, thanks for your help.

The dealer recommended the Legacy Fountain sub (at $4235 each, ouch!) or move up to the Focus, which is HUGE, I can barely move the Sigs around now.

They are. I see that the price has risen substantially since I acquired them. 

@vladtheimpala  great idea, but those subs are kinda pricey!

I’m going to start investigating active speakers.

I agree with the poster above who recommended Anthem's ARC Genesis room correction, except the easiest and least costly way to obtain that is to purchase one or more of Martin Logan's subwoofers. ARC is incredibly effective and it is much easier to set up than Dirac Live (I have both and I prefer the results from Anthem over that of Dirac, so far). I have two Martin Logan Dynamo 1100X subs and I can confirm that they reach reliably to 22Hz (I checked with a tone generator and SPL meter) and they deliver very satisfying deep bass.

@raysmtb1 - Awesome, thanks, I will read up on this. It's my day off today, so I have to cook, clean, shop, take out the garbage, then help my wife sort out her studio. I will check this out to tomorrow when I go back to work for a rest.

@navyachts I just found a new one that’s really easy to use and let you record your results so that you can record before and after you make a change. It’s called.”youlean LM lite”. It uses a measurement called a LUF. This is supposed to be the newest way to measure sound. You can read up on what an LUF is here.this is all new to me, I’ve just found this this afternoon. It’s very interesting if you’re trying to figure out what makes a change in the sound. I think it’s pretty easy to understand and I’m not very smart guy.

@raysmtb1 - Thanks, There seem to be many of these apps, can you suggest which one might be best or is there a "Spectrum Analyzer for Dummies" I can find these kinda things challenging! 

Also, if you don’t trust your ears, you can run say 30 Hz test tone and use your phone or iPad with a spectrum analyzer app and have it remember the strongest signal. The iPhone app is accurate enough to tell you if you’re getting a stronger signal by moving the speakers around More so then your ears probably are. If you can play the test tones and you have a smart phone ….you have  all the tools you need to figure it out before you go spending any money

Instead of trying different recordings which vary from recording to recording, why don’t you get a Testone CD or if you subscribe to TIDAL, you can use this Testone album called “audio line up test tones”. You can listen to a frequency at every hundred hertz for approximately three minutes long. While the frequency is running, it gives you time to move your speakers around. I like running 30 Hz and then running 20 Hz. It’s amazing how many speakers say they’ll go to 20 Hz but you here next to nothing versus playing 30 Hz and then 40 Hz and then 50 Hz. The towns keep getting louder as it’s easier for this speaker to reproduce the sound.Try it works great!

@steve59 - This is probably one of the best suggestions. I was thinking active before buying all the separates (Dutch & Dutch 8c in particular), but my wife was actually the proponent of separates, but wasn't thinking ahead enough regarding room problems. Plus the 8c’s on stands aren’t all that attractive.

Trading up to the active Signatures is definitely an option (I think, I'd have to talk to the dealer first) and the upcharge to actives isn’t much more than adding a couple of subs.

My only concern would be will the actives produce as good a sound as the pricey pre/power amp that I have right now (taking the room out of the equation)? As I might not live here forever and have a better situation in the future.

I've had similar struggles to yours and adding subs never helped in a 2 channel system, at some volume the sub bass and mains quit playing together. I had a velodyne with a remote volume and phase button, one of several solutions I tried, but my solution finally came when I got the right amp for the speakers. I don't have LA sigs, but thought they offered active bass for their speakers different drivers? If you could go active for the bass it would make a difference likely as not.

Leaving the speakers only 1 foot off the back wall ain't going to be good.

@audphile1 - OK, I finally got some crummy pics up on my system page!

@soix - ok, before I make that leap I'm gonna get some more hours on the Sigs first. Thanks!

The good news is that the included integration software should greatly expand your placement options, which is the beauty of the 45-day trial.  

@wturkey ya, my speakers don't lool anything like that. 

https://legacyaudio.com/products/view/signature-se

And, how the heck did you post that picture? I wanted to post a couple of shots of my "Busy" room!

@soix - sounds good, I just need to figure out where to put 'em. Everybody says I have a big room, but it's feeling pretty cramped to me.

Working on posting pics...

Buy a couple SVS SB1000 Pro subs that’ll undoubtedly augment your bass and other areas ass @blisshifi mentioned.  They’re only $1150 for a pair and offer integration software that’ll make life a lot easier, and at only 13” square they offer a really small footprint for what they deliver.  And with a 45-day, risk-free trial period including shipping both ways, why the hell not?

"rear firing tweeters" huh?
 

Yes. The signature 3‘s have them. Were they omitted on the SE’s? 
 

Below is a link of a photo of where to locate the rear firing tweeter in case there is confusion. 
 

@soix - The fireplace is 12" off the floor so I don’t want to cover it if the subs are on the inside of the mains. There is room to the to the right of the right speaker for a bigger sub but on the left side it’s going to get all muddled up in the drapes. Some say the subs shouldn’t be on the same wall as the mains, so I’m confused.

Even more confusing is trying to get some pictures loaded here!

@wturkey - "rear firing tweeters" huh?

@audphile1 OK, I have some picture, how the heck do I post them here? It's asking for a URL

@daledeee1 Walk around the room.  Does bass get better, worse or doesn't matter.  A continuous tone is helpful.

Continuous the way I hear it.

@80s_forever - now that is interesting. I think you are the second person in this thread to mention something like this. I possibly have a chance to change the speakers, changing out the amp might be a little more difficult at this point. Thanks

I’m confused as to whether you’re still limited to 12” subs?  If not, a pair of 13” SVS SB1000 Pro subs will definitely up your bass performance and include integration software all for $1100 with a 45-day, risk-free trial including shipping both ways.  Definitely worth a try I’d think. 

navyachts,

I own a Coda No.8 V1, and based on my experience with it, I suspect it is the cause of your bass problem.  I have used the Coda amp with 2 different speakers, KEF Reference 1 and Yamaha NS-5000, and have found much stronger bass with other amplifiers (Parasound JC-1 and Yamaha M-5000).  

@lanx0003 wrote: "Prove it. Don’t just talk about it.  I really challenge you to do better than Quolio's room."

How old are you?  I haven't talked like that since I was about 12.  And I never disputed the quality of their audio/video.  They're trying to sell speakers from it.  Move on and quit trolling the OP's thread.

@jr19 - thanks

@lanx0003 - I was trying to be funny, chill out bro

my speakers are 17" from back wall, 23" from side wall, about 7' apart. toed in about 4* ish. 

@audiom3 Problem with uploading to YT is not just the compression but most won’t be able to play back that deep bass anyway unless they have a decent sub.

Really? Take a serious listening to the Quolio IQ YT demo. This time use your headphone. Good one. The recording is truely top notch AND Quolio’s room does not have sub there.

One day I’ll upload a video/sound clip of my Focus SEs bowing/rattling the F out of my back windows of my 16x28 room.

Prove it. Don’t just talk about it.  I really challenge you to do better than Quolio's room.

OP: I think open baffle speaker need to be way out from the back wall. I had to laugh; my room looks 10 times better acoustically than the one in the video

If your room/speakers could produce that kind of decent sound reproduction as I hear from the Quolio’s room, you should not be here whining about it.

@jr19 - cool, could you share a little bit about your speaker placement?

I have the Sig SEs. the amp matters. sounded weak with the emotiva. sounded Very Good with the Parasound Halo. have the Pass Labs 250.8 now and I'm done. i get strong accurate base in my small untreated house. XP-12 is my pre.

@navyachts I am willing to bet his 'audition' was a YouTube video 🤣

@audiom3 ya, @lanx0003  comments seem a little skewed

@daledeee1 Walk around the room.  Does bass get better, worse or doesn't matter.  A continuous tone is helpful.  I  have 20 and 30 hz only.  Also, it will take a few days, many people play new speakers continuously for a few days.

stays the same 

@lanx0003 wrote: "I recalled, one and half year ago, I came across a pair of used Legacy Focus SE for a increadibly affordable price including shipping and was tempted. Fortunately I was able to audition first and decide not to pursue because its so-so bass performance.  Although youtube recordings was heavily criticized but, if you take brief listening to it, it immediately becomes apparent that their bass was not as deep, weighty and nimble as you might expect from a set of gigantic beefy speakers."

You could not be further from the truth.  One day I'll upload a video/sound clip of my Focus SEs bowing/rattling the F out of my back windows of my 16x28 room.  We're talking peaks @ 30Hz range stuff, not boomy, "boom boom" car bass.  Problem with uploading to YT is not just the compression but most won't be able to play back that deep bass anyway unless they have a decent sub.

It just takes a little effort like with anything else.  You can't expect to slap them down into any room, hit play and have high expectations of being blown away with deep bass.  That is beyond silly and unrealistic.

@lanx0003 - I think open baffle speaker need to be way out from the back wall.      I had to laugh; my room looks 10 times better acoustically than the one in the video

@audphile1 - is there any way you can stop the notification of this message to my email? I have received it 10 times! I'm working on pictures!!

@navyachts picture speaks a thousand words. is there a way you can add a virtual system with pictures of room and current set up?

That will help with proper recommendations with your current and future setup. 

I recalled, one and half year ago, I came across a pair of used Legacy Focus SE for a increadibly affordable price including shipping and was tempted. Fortunately I was able to audition first and decide not to pursue because its so-so bass performance.  Although youtube recordings was heavily criticized but, if you take brief listening to it, it immediately becomes apparent that their bass was not as deep, weighty and nimble as you might expect from a set of gigantic beefy speakers.

Take a look at Quolio IQ. It is might be your end game yet very afforable speakers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysk3Sq65mZA&t=1837s

Another fun tool is a simple App on your phone.  Spectroid is a frequency measurement tool.  Take your phone and sit in your listening position.  You will see the bass response in relation to other frequencies.  make sure the recording is one that has low frequencies.  Most don't have much below 35 Hz but some recordings go to 25Hz.  Make sure the bass is as loud as other frequencies, kinda close, not louder.  During my placement wars, there were times the bass completely cancelled out in my listening position!  Now I have beautiful, detailed bass. 

I have traps.  Quite a few, but not enough bass traps.  There are rectangular and cylindrical(best}f, corner triangle, also good.  you can also add traps with paintings or pictures, at a cost. 

@mike_in_nc OK, thanks, I'll try and figure it out.

>> how do I go about doing this "Measuring" <<

Well, either you do the work learning to use OmniMic or REW or something similar, or you don’t. There are no special tricks; it just takes doing it a few, or a few dozen, times. There’s quite a bit online, especially for REW. Besides the mic and software, you need a standard mic stand (about $35 last I looked).

Measurement is cheaper than most audio things (especially exotic cables) and has a better payback than many audio things, but it has a little DIY in it and is not something one can just buy and enjoy. It’s not for everyone. But I think you’re probably up for it.

If you have a Windows laptop available, I’d recommend OmniMic2, which I found easier to set up and learn than REW. But thousands of audiophiles use REW every day.

@audiom3 I agree with your statement about the equipment, I really have my homework cut out for me with this room, just not sure what I can do about it.

Two things that strike me about this thread.  One, Legacy speakers are never light on bass.  Two, they also never sound bright (with ample electronics as you seem to have).  I have owned Legacy speakers for 25 years - exclusively.  I've had OG Classics, OG Focus, Silverscreen II, Silverscreen HD (currently own) and Focus SEs (currently own).  When I had crappy electronics back in the late 90s, the Classics could definitely sound a bit harsh.  But they produced very solid bass even with said crappy gear.  I think my amp back then was an Acurus A125X5.  It was cheap but still allowed the Classics to thump pretty hard.  My room was not as big as yours since I rented back then.  But it was open into the dining room and kitchen, so it wasn't too far off.  There was also a slider off to the right going out to a balcony.  And it's coverings were not sound absorbing.  The ceilings were also only 8'.  These probably explain most of that harshness.  How is the room if you walk around and clap? (I recommend doing this when your wife is running an errand :D).  I'm guessing it will echo like crazy...

Room layout and speaker positioning is key and I see that several have mentioned that.  You don't even have to go wild with placement - since I know you are not able to.  A few inches could make a drastic difference.  And don't over-do toe-in.  That is a common mistake.  Mine fire nearly straight out into my room.  Maybe 2 to 4 degrees at the listening position which is 9' away.

Since sound panels or diffusers aren't an option for you, there may be little you can do to tame the room's harshness.  But again, speaker positioning can help to a degree.