An unexpected, modest budget improvement means I can (possible) address what I perceive as both poorly controlled bass and an overall lack of clarity. Yes, I realize I raised this before but I think I have a better handle of the problems at this point.
I suspect the first issue is due to insufficient damping factor on the part of the the Wells Majestic integrated coupled with an inherently difficult-to-control lower range in the Silverline SR17.5 monitors.
The second issue is most likely due to the dark and somewhat cloudy tonality of the Aqua La Voce 2 DAC.
I'm looking into upgrading the Wells but here and now, I'd like suggestions on changing speakers.
_______________________________________________________________________ Budget: $3500 (used is fine)
Cabinet: Sealed box or downward firing port.
Lower extension (ideally) down to 35HZ
Neutral to somewhat cool (but not approaching analytical) tonality
Placement constraints: Backs of speakers cannot be more than three feet from back wall and will sit atop 32" stands,(which means no 3-way or otherwise extra-tall cabs).
Listening:
60% acoustic (Jazz, Folkish, Celtic, Singer-songwriter, New Grass) 40% electric (Jam Band, Americana, Blues, Country). _____________________________________________________________________
So far, Elac Vela looks like a possibility. What else ?
I plan to assemble an entirely new system within 5 years. I'm just looking to make listening less frustrating for the present.
I tried the less expensive model (I prefer a soft dome tweeter) and was underwhelmed, probably due to the fact that I have a fairly large space.
@audio0guru:
Not sure the Ushers would best the Silverlines but thanks.
@tweak1:
Thanks for the suggestion. During my recent "vacation" from audiogon, my wife surprised me by rearranging our living room furniture, so now, I'm no longer limited to using monitors.
You are looking for the Usher Audio Mini Dancer X. Great bass from a bookshelf speaker, very detailed with a very neutral/leaning very slightly to the warm side. I have shown with them many times to great acclaim. $3450.00/pair. I could set you up with a pair.
I have atc 19 v2 and i just off’ed a set of acoustic zen hollowgrams...they sounded like small floor stander with az’s...but i eventually had to go with something that didnt ...well seem to add "too much of a good thing"...plenty of lowend. Will add the sound anchor is a great stand to pair with...Setup took some time to get right and the sealed cab is the reason i got them for the room,but the efforts really paid off and atc's deliver.
The Lipinski L707 is a beautiful monitor with double 7’ woofers, sealed and will give you 35hz. Is advertised used from time to time. Former class a rated in Stereophile. Not selling mine :-)
Great, if you could demo anything from each brand that would be best, as basically all Proac and ATC 2-ways have the same house sound.
ATC recommends 75w min for the SCM19/20; it has 85/886db sensitivity vs the D2’s 88db, so the Proac will be louder at the same volume level. They both have similar impedances and won’t dip too low; an easy load in terms of current demands for any solid state amp. On the flip side, the ATCs will have higher power handling; less distortion and clipping when you want to crank it.
Another big difference is bass. Being ported, the Proac will reach lower beore its tuning frequency but then bass will fall steeply below that. Being sealed, the ATC will have better transient response (tightness), not going as low, but its rolloff is much shallower. I’d say the Proac should give you more bass down to 40hz before that sharp rolloff, the ATC about 50hz. The ATC will be less upset by acoustic issues from proximity to room boundaries, and the waveguided tweeter should have better off-axis response. It’s generally easier to integrate a sealed speaker with a sub if you go down that route in the future.
The Tannoy Legacy eaton is considered a monitor speaker, despite its rather large and unconventional size. Although it may be several thousand above your stated budget, If you can stretch it, it is well worth it.
I've found a dealer who sell both Proac and ATC and am waiting to hear about availability.
BTW, he said it's a "myth" that ATC's are power hungry. I'll just have to use my ears to determine whether they'll work with my integrated.
Thanks to you and all who've contributed to this thread. I appreciate your input. I feel I have a clear sense of where I'm headed with the system, now.
A good choice. They're on similar levels. Didn't know you were in Seattle. I got my amp from Hawthorne, a long time ago.
As a last choice, remember ATC also has their Pro line. For the passives, these are exactly the same drivers and cabinet volume, but sometimes cheaper than the home models and they don't look quite as good, but they sound the same. The Pro version of the 11 is called the 12, and the Pro version of the 19 is called the 20. There will be more availability through online pro audio stores like Vintage King (whom I got my 20s off years ago).
Apparently Hawthorne Stereo in Seattle doesn't bother to keep their website updated. When I called them, they told me ATC's are "severely back-ordered".
Also, opinions re: whether Wells can drive ATC's are extremely inconsistent.
For these reasons, I'm inclined to go with Proac Response 2d instead.
Sure thing. You can contact GIK by email or phone or their help form. They’re really helpful. They have many products that are meant to fit in living rooms unobtrusively, like print panels. One doesn’t have to turn the room into a full on studio, but first get a handle on what the issues might be and the range of solutions for them.
Ideally, one wants to use short speaker cable lengths, but 20ft is not going to murder your system, and certainly not in comparison to acoustic distortions from reflections and room modes. Treat the room. Get the right speakers for your placement restrictions, sonic preferences, and room size.
All speaker cable degrades through loss of high level signal, and more so when running into a passive crossover where it can interact with the filter responses. In pro audio, they prefer to use active speakers so no passive crossovers, and no speaker cable rather than long, balanced interconnects, which are better for long runs being low level signals.
What is your opinion re: the 20 foot speaker cable runs?
When Aqua updated the La Voce to S3, clarity was significantly enhanced. The 6moons S3 review describes the changes in detail. I can only assume they felt the S2 was lacking in this regard.
OK those placement descriptions do suggest acoustic issues affecting bass. Look at GIK acoustic product solutions e.g. bass traps. Think about rugs, and reflections, e.g. diffusers.
ATC 7/11/19 are all sealed. These make them much less susceptible to positioning problems than vented speakers.
Your DAC is meant to be superb; I’d be looking at room treatments first before swapping it.
In fact, I asked Jeff about damping factor and he said amp was not to blame.
I do have 20' speaker cables, although they are doubled.
I could address this by moving components to another room and locating them on a rack. Components are currently on a massive built-in bookshelf unit on Symposium platforms and footers.
The speakers are positioned in the only place they will fit in the room, flanking a large tile and slate hearth containing a propane fireplace insert.
The hearth is not flush with back wall-- it sticks out 23" into the room.
The backs of speaker cabinets are 32" from back wall. The speakers protrude 12 " beyond face of hearth and distance from side of cabinets to hearth is 17". I have no-where else to put these.
Speakers arranged in equilateral triangle with listening chair (100" on all three sides).
From what you describe, ATC would really fit the bill. They have real studio monitor pedigree, and once you actually hear their bottom end, I don’t think you will miss the extension. Just my take.
The Wells amp specs damping factor at 200. Assuming that's in the bass(sometimes it's spec'd at higher frequencies) that's way more than enough to control the bass of any speaker. I assume you don't have long lengths of thin speaker cable then there are 2 more possibilities. One is you've positioned your speakers poorly in your room. The other is poor design of bass control of your speakers. But it's unlikely your amp.
I don’t know where you are located but if willing to travel to Sarasota Florida you have an option to hear both Fyne speakers and Aqua audio dac as they carry both. Surprised you found la voce dark, as my dream was the la scala with the tube output. I eventually purchased a less expensive r to r dac and the class can be described as musical or organic. The Fyne audio speakers are similar in presentation, musical but not hi fi. Driving the Fynes with a low wattage class a solid state with plenty of headroom. Sun coast has plenty of electronics to demo the speakers. Luxman, naim pass, Boulder , classe, and also barbers speakers
address what I perceive as both poorly controlled bass and an overall lack of clarity
I don’t think in any way, shape, or form your excellent speakers are the source of your problems. I’d suggest starting by replacing your electronics with others that are better suited to get the sound you’re looking for. It also sounds to me that your speaker stands are too tall, which may be another culprit in reducing clarity as the tweeters are probably well off axis and above ear level — just a guess though. Regardless, IMO the speakers are not likely the problem here. Best of luck.
Elac Velas are very good ,I have them in my 2 nd system the triangle Theta is a very good monitor and very good value $4200 retail can be bought for much less.
"You do realize that a small floorstander will take up no more real estate than a monitor on a stand? And give you more of what you require too."
Hint: expand your thinking from two to three dimensions.
@twoleftears:
The title of this thread clearly indicates I need a monitor but I appreciate your willingness to be of assistance.
@
motokokusanagi:
They're extremely hard to find used, unless one is looking for the pro audio versions. I'm awaiting a request to the US distributor to provide a list of US dealers.
"a Proac Response D2 might be a possibility" - not a bad choice; Proacs are very popular, and all models have the same sound signature (musical, detailed; slightly snappy in the treble).
Used ones may offer a lot better value. Stewart Tyler (RIP) basically used the same crossover topology in all his 2-way designs for over 20 years. Newer ones will cost a lot more yet the sound will be in the same ballpark as an equivalent model of 10 years ago. Consider finding the biggest one that will fit your room/stands.
Their Studio SM100 is the same format as the D2, just with different drivers.
Check out the Vienna Acoustics Haydn Grand. They are neutral and musical. Front ported. If you can have the back of the speaker 3’ from wall behind it, lots of rear ported speakers will work. The most obvious option would be the Joseph Audio Pulsars as they go deep and don’t require mikes from wall behind. Bottom ported stand mounts exist but almost always have an integrated stand like Wilson Benesch. Otherwise…not sure.
Yes you will definitely need to choose between sealed and bass shy or ported. I’d be suspicious of specs that say sealed monitor to 35hz (many ported do not either for example). Simple physics
I looked into Fyne before but couldn't find US dealers.
@akg_ca:
Most Harbeths seem more like floor-stander size on a half-height stand than typical monitors. I have severe placement restrictions due to furniture. And the room is not small, so I couldn't get away with their most petite models.
However, since we're on the topic of British monitors, a Proac Response D2 might be a possibility. I've contacted the distributor and asked for a list of US dealers. They're a bit more than my budget, but I could stretch.
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