Magnepan LRS+ resistors on the tweeters… which?

For anyone wishing to try a bunch of different value resistors check out JF components they have many audio quality of under $2.00 each, I just placed an order myself. They also carry speakers and other audio components. 

Currently, I have the feeling that I am in a middle of something with the LRS+… on one side there is the speaker positioning and on the other the amplification.
In some degree, the evaluation of one is connected with the other.

The Rogue RP-1 / NAD C275 BEE pre-power combo is performing very well and led to a new position of the speakers that finally I am getting a good depth and soundstage… but the treble continues a bit hard and compressed on some recordings.
With gentle acoustic music I am in heaven. 
With busy recordings with brass instruments (for example) it is not pleasant at all.

Also the LRS+ are really “power sponges” on some recordings, with the volume knob seeing untraveled territory… uff

Note: the speakers are on aftermarket stands, more or less 60cm from the side walls, 130cm from the back, toe-in pointing behind my head and tweeters on the outside. Treble resistor Mundorf M-Resist Classic10w 1,5 ohm.
Speaker and interconnect cables are Straightwire Encore.

Hiya,

interested to hear a feedback if you get Mills and compare it with Mundorf resistors. Also pretty much interested for feedback when you get AMR fuses and you try to upgrade the default ones.

Van Damme is used in various applications. Also Harbeth use them have their speakers too. Btw I use Van Damme Hi-Fi L-OFC on my subs connected to High Level inputs.

Best wishes, D.

@delfincek thanks for the suggestions.

I few weeks ago I have already contacted Hifi Collective UK and now have the full price of the Mills, including custom taxes. Meanwhile, I already have 1R, 1R5 and 2R2 Mundorf 10W resistors to try… the 1R5 is doing such a good job smoothing the treble that I am proceeding with the room positioning set-up… until my mind blow up!…

As for AliExpress, well don’t mind me saying but that is a route I don’t want to take, for many reasons. Those speaker cables, for example, are the type of product that I fail to be interested: a copy of the Nordost. I feel that is the looks that they are after without having the materials and technology… Sure, the price of the original is absurd, not only to my financial capacity, but in general, but some way it kind of reflects the R&D, technology and materials used, I can’t believe that someone offered something similar at 1/20 of the price…

I am not saying that they sound bad (or good), just that I can’t invest in that kind of product.

Also I am uncomfortable to bypass the fuse. Sure, it must do more harm than good but it is there for a purpose: safety. I have bought an AMR fuse designed especially for the Magnepan, but I will only tested after finding the correct LRS+ position in the room.

One interesting thing about speaker cables: when looking inside some good high current amplifiers (Plinius, Perreaux, Muse) we can find the same type of cable design - connecting the binding posts to the main board - of the Van Damme L-OFC 4mm that I use. That makes me stick with it :)

Hiya,

LRS+ user here from EU. These are the tweeks I made with them:

- my friend made me custom made very sturdy stands very similar to Magnarisers. I use some schematics from some American who made them and they work excellent. I still have schematics pics on my PC at home if needed. I can not find his webpage at the moment to share.

- I added 1R Mills 12W resistor - i bought them at Hifi Collective UK. You can also get them from some distributor from Poland but they are about 20€ so a bit more expensive. Mills are good and they give a bit of sweetness, warmth and also put the edge from the highs. You might also try 1R2, 1R5 as you have now or maybe even try Pathaudio resistors if you really want to experiment and see if they better the Mills. But they are expensive about 35€ a piece. I’m also curious a little bit about that to play with different values of resistors up or down and see what it brings or take away. But this is a bit expensive if you really want to try different combos.

- I bought high purity copper rod from the Aliexpress to bypass the fuse. And they cut me in a size that I needed. This link was actually made for me as I requested 32mm long ones and they fit perfectly :) https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005702709030.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.25.2c291802BTVv5M . I gained more clarity with that, but yeah do that if you know what you are doing.

- I changed the speaker wires for these which also made much smoother top end. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004369101541.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.55.2c291802BTVv5M

In my opinion the best speaker wires I ever had no matter the price. Bafore I had also some very expensive brand name so I sold those. You can wait for 11.11. sales on AE and they will be discounted for sure for about 1/3 less.

Each of these tweeks brought me bit to make LRS+ almost a perfect speakers.

BTW I drive them with Gryphon Callisto 2200 and for DAC I use Denafrips Ares II. They are supported with two REL B2 subs which they give a missing bottom end. I like them and I listen to the music the most even though in the past I had much more expensive speakers.

If you want to make a bit more full boddied presentation add some Cardas Golden Cross XLR or RCA cable in the game. But that is already a bit more costly and you need to seek for them on the second hand market as they are not produced anymore.

With best wishes, Davor.

@toddalin, thanks a lot for the suggestions and detailed information.

Perhaps I can buy the Mills resistors in the UK :)

You can ALWAYS use resistors of a higher wattage value here. Just don’t go for a lower wattage. A higher wattage resistor will better dissipate the heat.

The downside it that you typically pay more and if the extra "capacity" is not necessary, why pay for it? They can also be larger.

The Mills 12-watters are just their "better" version of most everyone else’s 10-watter. It’s too bad you can’t get them for reasonable coin in your parts.

Something else to think about...,

If you can find resistors that have a bit of inductance, they will change the "character" of the highs, and you may like the results. I use modified Heil AMTs with Mills resistors, but at one point I came across a pair of 20 ohm, 1% TRW 7.5 watt resistors. I wanted to increase the volume of the Heil by ~1/2 dB and had 3.2 ohms in series. The TRW resistors reduced this to 2.75 ohms and I picked up the ~1/2 dB. But the Heils lost some of their "edge/graininess".

When I checked the TRWs, I found they had 0.007mH of inductance which seems to tame this edge, at least to some extent.

BTW, one would think that changing the value of the resistors would also change the slope of the crossover.  However, in the case of a 2nd order, or higher, crossover, resistors placed before the "initial" capacitor will change the volume with negligible effect on the crossover point or slope.  I actually take advantage of this phenomenon in my crossovers.

The LRS+ was slightly bright. A bit more than the KEF LS50 Meta that it replaced. Nothing that really bothered me, but I used a warm DAC with it.

The Schitt Yggi+ Less Is More DAC goes extremely well with the LRS+.

@yyzsantabarbara  Thanks! I cancelled my order for the Risers after discovering that I had much better integration with my subwoofer with the LRS+ on the floor. I tried to buy the jumpers after cancelling, but he wouldn't sell.

@yyzsantabarbara ​@audiofilo123  Again, I am really surprised that you both find the LRS+ to be hot in the treble. I haven't tried other amps with them but my AGD amp with my Backert line stage (PSVANE Horizon 12au7 AT) is absolutely sublime. Detailed, yes! Hard treble? Not at all. And like many of you I am very sensitive to too much energy in the upper mid on up. The only thing I have done to the LRS+ is replace the fuse with a ceramic fuse, and tilt them forward by about an inch. 

@toddalin I thought that we must stick to 10W resistors!
Anyway, I can’t find the Mills in Europe and I am not willing to pay $60+ on shipping and customs alone if I buy abroad. Here I have available the mentioned Mundorf, Duelund, Path Audio, Ohmite, Jantzen, Amtrans… but still is difficult to get a 10W 1 to 2 Ohm resistor in most brands, usually not in stock.

@gbmcleod my LRS+ have about 250 hours on them.
Regarding the treble high level, in my experience, like I have mentioned in the previous post, that kind of thing is more a characteristic of the design and not something that can be fix with break in. The quality yes, the high level I don’t think so.

Of course, there are some (many?) users that don’t share my experience about the speaker’s balance / treble high level. Perhaps they are less sensitive, perhaps they already had a suitable high current/ power amp, perhaps a bigger room, etc. 

But what is clear to me is that if that tuning of the treble is included in the design, then it must be a real thing, addressed in the design process.

@yyzsantabarbara those two amps must be great with the LRS+. In a natural and logic way I am trying to work with the 5 amps that I have available before any thoughts on anything else. The Coda and Sanders are not only very interesting but also expensive and unavailable in Europe.

I bought the LRS+ sure that the Vincent SV-237MK (that drives everything) would pair well with them… and it is ok but there is that treble level issue. 

My second choice was the Rogue Sphinx, referred by some as a good match… but there was that treble again, irritating high.

It was not about treble quality (I saw that could obviously improve with burn-in) but it was the high level, something that I perceived to be within the speakers character.

At that point (with more or less 100 hours) I could:

1 - try the resistors, although not the stock ones, spending 50 euros.

2 - buy another amp, spending at least 750 euros on a used power amp.

The first choice was an easy one :)

Now, after about 250 hours, with the 1,5 Ohm Mundorf resistors that did reduced effectively the treble level and didn’t affect the sound quality, is natural that my questions are about the resistors, to learn from other’s experiences and to see if I can get even better results.

How long have you had the speakers? Is it possible that they are not fully broken in?

@audiofilo123 I get your point on the treble of the LRS+. It is a little hot. I tamed that with 2 approaches. I used the Schitt Yggi+ Less is More DAC, which is a bit rolled off on top but a very enjoyable DAC. I am converting the LIM to the Yggi+ MIB since I no longer have the LRS+. 

An amp will also help solve this treble issue. My CODA #16 was very impressive with the LRS+. The amp is a bit warm and the bass on the LRS+ was the strongest of all the amps I used with the LRS+. 

Another amp (which I am selling) that is great with the LRS+ and seemed to control the treble was the Sanders Magtech. That has 500 watts at 8 and 900 watts at 4. It was made specifically for the Maggies (according to Roger Sanders).

I used the Sanders Magtech with the LRS+ and the CODA #16 with my Yamaha NS5000 speakers since that was the best pairings.

@markmuse I had some issues with the clarity of the LRS+. I loved the speaker, but I found it lacked the utmost in clarity. Not a deal breaker since it did so many other things well. I recently sold the LRS+ since I lost the room that was able to support the LRS+. In a smaller office space now.

When I added the Risers + the Riser jumper I found an immediate improvement in the sound. The clarity of the sound was improved, and the sound stage seemed better. Now I am not sure what was more important, the feet or the jumper. I put both on at the same time and was immediately impressed at the improvement in clarity and the soundstage.

The jumper was not something that I expected to be part of the Riser order. It came as a "bonus". 

Mills (12 watt) while not cheap are very nice without getting into high-end boutique (=$$$).  You can get them from Parts Express.

@daveteauk , I have several components of different brands and I didn’t consider me a fanboy of any of them, or all the numerous brands that I had for the past 35 years of audiophileness… Just happen to like this particular Naim combo in some system combinations, and other Naim components in others systems. Not every time I have been swept by Naim gear.

Note: I think that I never classified as garbage any of the many components that didn’t gel with any of my systems. Perhaps I am just lucky…

But like I said before, I have tried the LRS+ with 5 different amps so far… and the treble level, in the general balance, was too high FOR ME. In the OP I have shared my experiences and put some questions on this subject. In any case I stated that the LRS+ are less than great, apart from the mentioned “problem”. 
Spec wise and by experience, all of the amps used were well capable to drive a 4 Ohm / 85db speaker, but on the other hand the LRS+ are demanding for more…

As for the resistors, I have reading about mixed results (not only in this forum), some like them some don’t. My question to those who find the resistors beneficial is: what resistors, value and quality?

I am “listening” to all opinions (certainties) about the resistors, but because it is a feature incorporated in the speakers design (from the beginning) it makes sense to me to explore that, especially with parts better than the ones supplied. If it is really a foolish thing to do (meaning: certified way to kill the sound quality) so why do Magnepan designers insist on offer that feature, even in the top models?

To me is another part of the crossover, but just one that we can change the value.

More extreme users defend that he crossover itself and the back plate (fuses, fuse holder, metal magnetic bidding posts, shunt, cables) are total rubbish and we all should dismantle the all thing and… well you know… Magnepans are great but only after that amount of work.

Food for thought…

@pureclarity,

yes, all the ground floor in my house is thick poured concrete.

yes, I have a large thick rug between me and the speakers.

yes, my dedicated room is acoustically treated (walls and ceiling) and it is very well balanced. All my other speakers sound great.

Thanks to both for your time and valuable inputs.

If so u may need an area rug for sound absorption. Too much reflection in a room will sound bright, glass, cement, any hard surface. Even going from leather furniture to fabric makes difference in sound. 

In ur pic, is that a cement floor for your listening area?

OP - as almost everyone is telling you - don't use the/any resitors. They kill transparency/detail and the 'life' of the music. Look elsewhere.

As almost everyone is telling you - the amp is VERY important with Maggies.

You may be a Naim fanboy, but they don't fit into your system with Maggies. I KNOW, I've tried. And the 122x IS garbage (and I was using the FC2x btw)! Lifeless, dull, congested etc etc, and doesn't belong in your system, IMO. And I would imaging anyone selling Maggies would agree, and steer you away from Naim. If your head is stuck into Naim, then there's no point going on with this conversation. If you must stay with Naim, I suggest different speakers. LRS+ are NOT toppy/bright, when driven and setup correctly. NAC A5 is no good for Maggies either.

You have come here for suggestions, but seem reluctant to listen.

yyzsantabarbra hit the nail on the head with getting Maggie’s off the floor with the magneriisers and their supplied jumpers. Vast improvement. They tune the risers for each speaker. Audiofilo123: Your right that the belles does get hot, but I have fans cooling it. I’m running the virtuoso which gives me plenty of current to drive my speakers. I have great imaging and sound stage. But like the other posts have been suggesting, please try to avoid using the resistors if all possible. Try a few different audio quest cables, type 9 + dbs or rocket 88 + dbs. I even upgraded my power cord to my streamer and am using xlr cables for additional clarity. Everything in the chain makes a difference with sound quality.

@yyzsantabarbara I have been struggling with the stock stands (very annoying little things) so I have decided to design and built my own stands.

A layer os felt is between the speakers and the vertical plates and some felt round adhesive pads are on the feet.
The height is exactly what Magnepan suggests.

So no problem in this department, because the sound improvement is immediate… but I continue to find the treble output level too high for my taste.

@daveteauk thanks for your input.

First about the Naim: I completely disagree. All components can be “bad sounding” if the synergy isn’t there in the first place, The Nac122x is a wonderful piece and must be used with the Flatcap 2x for the best results. One example of a mismatch: my Belles Soloist 1 integrated is wonderful with the Totem Model 1 speakers (another demanding speaker) and is completely wrong with the LRS+. Is is a cheap garbage piece? Absolutely not.
The Naim combo give me amazing results with the Totem, Kef LS50, Duevel Planets, Quad 11L and it is the most successful amp (in my lot) with the LRS+.

The 1,5 Ohm Mundorf resistor improved the treble significantly. Now I am readjusting the positioning…

Oh, and my dedicated listening room is professionally treated by Vicoustic.

@waytoomuchstuff, thanks for the suggestions, but like I say in my previous post, I just want to work on the stock LRS+. I am confident that I can get good results with the right:

- resistor

- speaker cable and amp

- in room positioning 

@pureclarity I also have a Belles Soloist 1 integrated amp and it is one of the less successful combinations in my system. The sound is too stressed, with no sense of power and body - compared with the Vincent or the Naim combo. Also the Belles gets too hot.

My goal is to tame the highs on the LRS+ without any changes, just by adjusting the position in the room and playing with the resistors.

The design of Magnepans (that comes from the factory) can be improved, and it is very easy to point things that can be improved on the crossover, binding posts, fuse holder, etc… but there are many user that have them playing great without any changes to those parts. So that is my benchmark - the stock LRS+ - and is that speaker that I want to improve in a “passive” way.

What is you Belles model and what speaker cables are you using?

@yyzsantabarbara  What kind of improvement did you hear with the Magna Risers? I have mine on the floor tilted forward and find them to be extraordinary. 

@audiofilo123  I am really surprised to hear that. I am very sensitive to excessive energy in the upper mid to HFs. I replaced Caladans, KEF Reference, and Fyne F1-8 with the LRS+ and couldn't be happier. I think the upstream components might be a problem. I have a Backert tubed pre, an AGD amp, and using Zavfino speaker cables. I also replaced the fuses with ceramic fuses (not audiofile). The sound is rich, detailed, transparent, has shape, depth, but not at all fatiguing. I think AGD amps and Maggies are a great combination.

The Magna Risors were a tremendous upgrade to the LRS+. raising the speaker off the ground was a big benefit and also the jumper that Magna Risors provided as a bonus also made a very nice improvement.

I used a Sanders Magtech with the LRS+ and Audience FrontRow speaker cables. The system became very good after the Magna Risors.

I find that the 0.25 ohm resistor has zero impact on detail, sounstage, imaging… from what I’ve read just a very, very gradual roll off from about 800hz up which in my case tames the slight brightness/sibilance in a way I can both live with and afford.

Putting a resistor on Maggies to solve a HF problem would be a last resort for me.  Placement, toe in or toe out, different amp, tone controls, PEQ, etc., would all be tried first.

The new crossover in magnepan… any way to generate profit. For me, I’m staying stock until the next upgrade bug.

LRS owner here. My set up is balanced w/o a resistor.

I 50 Hz high pass the input to My Cary CAD 200 amp driving the Maggies. I use a Rythmic 15 in sealed sub set to 50 Hz. The LRS are 4 feet from the front wall with the tweeters on the inside.

The sound is balanced and full range.

pureclarity - I don't understand why the Magnepan crossover upgrade is so expensive. I converted my 1.6's to an active electronic crossover, removing the passives, rewiring to the panels to exclude the fuse, using Cardas gold plated copper binding posts and it was less than $3,000 including a used second amp and four new interconnects. What in the world are they using in there?

BTW - I've been fuseless for 15 years. No problems.

Hi Maggie 3.7i owner I'm using . 57 resistors, I find they tame the high and mids just enough. I tried some over 1 but found they just smothered the high end. As for cable I'm using Canare 4s11 a very reasonable but great sounding cable used in many studios 

Good luck happy listening. 

The supplied 1&2 ohm resistors kill the top end. That is why the Audio Connexion option for lower value resistors is very low cost… under $75 and likely to make a noticeable improvement. 

I used Mike Powell’s silver jumpers and fuse (inexpensive)  and they made my LRS+ sound great...Amp was Odyssey Khartago Extreme SE in small room

Yea I tried the resistors once, sounded like my ears were clogged 

@cey - I agree - this is not a 'normal' scenario for these. I'd be looking at other things to tame what you're hearing down a tad, maybe speaker cable, definitely the Naim 122X - an awful cheap n nasty piece of equipment, as I found out when I bought one as it had a HT bypass feature I wanted. It was driving my Threshold S300II into my 1.7i's. Next I tried a Naim 202 as the 122x was so bad (a glutten for punishment I hear!). Much better than the 122x but still not in the same league as the Speaker/Power amp combo. Enter an ARC LS15, quickly followed by my current Ref3 - Heaven.

Anyway - dump the Naim stuff, including, and especially the NAC A5 cable.

As @waytoomuchstuff says - the input plate is GARBAGE. The binding posts are STEEL!!! as is the awful jumper where the resistor goes. The fuse and its holder should be junked, as that is what it is - junk. Not needed. It's easy to bypass too and easy to revert if you don't like it. The difference 'proper' binding posts made and the removal of the fuse & holder was astonishing. I've had various Maggies over the last 45 years, from my 1st MG1b to my current ones, and they have all benefited, enormously, from doing the above. An LRS+ should not be sounding harsh or toppy (hot). Those awful reistors should not/never be used, IMO.

From memory, I believe the LRS+ has those little feet extensions at the rear to either tilt the speaker more upright, or have it leaning back. If yours are upright with the 'bent wire foot' extended, drop them down. Leaning a Maggie back will reduce treble. If you have the 'cantilever' type stand, did your speakers not come with four small Nylon washers, which can be placed between stand and speaker on the four uppermost attachment points? If so, try them. If not, get some to try, to get the speakers to lean back a few degrees. And as @boxcarman says, put some absobent material behind the speakers to reduce reflections. Reflections exaggerate top end, so if your particular room is somewhat LIVE, then that will help enormously. Try all things, but don't use those resistors.

Also the other alternative which is crazy stupid expensive, is to have magnepan upgrade the whole crossover to the new x version. But like I said it’s like 2 grand for that 

I’m using a belles integrated amp, which makes the Maggie’s very crisp, and using audio quest type 9 but with dbs battery pack. The cable without the battery pack believe it or not made the speakers a little bit too sharp. The dbs smoothed it out. I wasn’t the only one who heard it. The wife heard it first.

I have had Maggies for over 25 years.  Lots of tinkering with placement and room interactions.  For me, the best way to fix what I call a "hissy top end" was to put a sound absorbing panel directly behind the speaker more toward the top of the speaker.  This will still let you enjoy the soundstaging effects but cut out the reflected top end.  I did try the fuse treatment to no audible effect.  Also different resistors with poor results.

"where everything aspect of the sound is right apart from the treble: it is simply too high"

There are a number of factors at play (literally) here:

You’ve probably considered this already, but experiencing changes when speakers are moved about the room would suggest room treatments may be helpful as a first step?

I have a speaker patent, and do speaker performance upgrades. Taking a quick look at what is available out there on the crossovers there are plenty of opportunities for improving the sound which would, YES, calm down the high end and make it more transparent, detailed, and less aggressive without introducing additional (sound altering) elements to the signal path. Actually, taking things out may be a better solution to get you where you want to be.

The resistor "jumper" is convenient and "consumer friendly" but introduces more connections and a literal "switch" in the signal path. I would experiment with the supplied resistors and select a value that best works for you. Then order a good one (I use Mils from Parts Express). Remove the crossover input board and solder the resistor directly across the terminals. Even if you decide not to use a resistor, I would still jumper across this with a high quality cable. Will reduce the "edginess" of the sound to a notable degree.

The next suggestion is going to cause some immediate distress and push back from some, but I would consider bypassing the fuse. It’s been suggested, and my experience aligns with this, that amps and source devices have gotten better and more reliable over the years and the chance of blowing a fuse is almost zero. Fuses (and their holders) are terrible sound degraders. So, here we are, paying very close attention to our speaker cables, connections, etc., and present all of that to a minuscule piece of wire in a glass case called a fuse. I have noticed that there are silver or copper slugs available to do this. As with above, the fuse holder is another "switch" in the signal path (actually 2) and is made of cheap materials. I’d pull the plate and jumper around this with good speaker cable. IF this seems a reasonable proposition to you, I would do this step FIRST in that it will have a dramatic impact on the characteristics of the high end. (May not want/need) a resistor?). I know there is a risk involved here -- and you live there, I don’t. Your call. Just revealing what years of experience has determined and there seems to be a strong consensus on this with others.

Conclusion: You may get sonic performance well above your current level without adding more (sound degrading) components to the signal path.

unusual feedback on these LRS+.
u sure its the speakers?
 

Let me just say that I went through multiple amps and two preamps… and each shaped the sound in their own way… but it was the 0.25 ohm resistors that really dialed things in…. my room is large and somewhat live. 
 

https://www.audiogon.com/systems/7699

@pureclarity, I have several amps and cables to work with, and I have tried almost every combination.

The two that I have used the most are:

- Naim Nac 122x / Flatcap 2x / Nap 150x with Naim Nac A5 cables

- Vincent SV-237MK with Van Damme L-OFC 4mm cables

You are right about the importance of both amps and cables, but I tend to think that the treble presence (too much of it) is a trade mark of Magnepans in general, and they know it to fit a way to reduce it by the use of resistors.

What amp are you using and what cables?

You know, Maggie’s are hard to set up, I have the 1.7s. What cables are you using?Also amplification makes a difference too. There are warmer amps and better sounding cables,even though that is a heavily debated topic. What are you using for amps?

Why not a pot?

I think @snapsc has the right idea. Have a range of values to swap in and out. Listen and possibly even measure to get the sound that is most pleasing to you.

I went to the Parts Connexion and found the same ceramic resistors that Magnepan provides and bought matched pairs 0.1 ohms, 0.2, 0.3 and so on up to 0.8… they are very inexpensive and then find which value gets you the sound you want. 

I’m not familiar with the Magnepan setup, or the resistors they provide, but many wirewound resistors have an unwanted inductance byproduct due to how they’re wound. You should be better off if you can find non-inductive resistors of the same value...many of those are double wound in a manner that cancels the inductive byproduct.  

The ones I'm currently using in my speakers for tweeter attenuation are old Dale metal body 25W 3 ohm designated with an "NH" prefix.  

https://forum.digikey.com/t/inductive-vs-non-inductive-resistors/62