Looking to buy a quality integrated $10,000 budget.
I’m at the point now I’m happy with my speakers, Klipsch La Scala AL5 at 105db sensitivity or there about and 8ohm load. I really don’t need big power. Unfortunately many integrated, as you go up the companies lines, keep adding power and not much else I’m not really into paying for something I’ll never use.
I do not need a DAC built in, I do not need a phono stage built in but I would not count them out if they were good quality and I could reduce the box load. So if I replace them I would need something as good inside the integrated as the Gold Note PH10 phono stage and Schiit Gungnir multi bit DAC that I currently use.
Sources are; Garrard 301 table set up with Jelco 12"arm and Van Den Hull Cart (and a Soundsmith MI), PC based streamer, multi disc player and Apple TV 4K (all the digital goes into the DAC) and a tuner (I like the Seattle NPR radio, Jazz 24).
I’m so far considering in Tube or SS class A (preferably but wont rule others out):
- Luxman 590axii, class A 30wpc. this is a top choice for me right now. change my mind? - Luxman Tube integrated like the LX 380 - Accuphase E 650 (used-older as USA prices are overpriced mind you I can get it cheaper in Canada so may not be an issue), - McIntosh MAC 7200, more power then I’ll ever need but many features like a tuner, phono stage etc. so could go to one box but what’s the compromise with all that inside? - BAT VK801 and others never heard a BAT (recommended from a friend) so not sure, I don’t have anywhere near me to listen so don’t say go listen. - Sungden but I have to admit I find them homely and a little basic looking. - Triode Labs and Finale Audio (great gear by the way) I’ve considered (again) but I really want a remote and need more then 3 inputs. - Pass labs class A if I can find one used and in my budget. - Decware and the other smaller tube amps are also in the back of my head. - what am I forgetting or don’t know that’s the question?
Sound is paramount but it has to appeal to me looks-function wise as well, I just can not look at a homely integrated regardless of the sound. Also I really want a remote this time around! If I kept both DAC and Phono stages I could go (partially) balanced but my tuner is single ended so its not important to me. Also I would like to stay away from Chinese production for now. Recently used ( newer then 10 years) or New is what I’m thinking.
I’m kind of trending away from tubes just tired of replacing them, 300b’s no way ever again. I Live in an open concept Loft so my main system does everything TV-movies-music. I also tend to have my system on playing from 4pm to midnight through the week and all day and night weekends (when I’m home of course) so my system gets lots of use this is why I’m thinking tubes may be done in my audio life maybe we will see.
I do not like the looks of Mac’s sloped front integrated tube amps similar to AudioNotes new integrated I find that sloped face not to my tastes. AudioNote in general I find over priced for what you get. yes I’ve owned some.
I have listen to some Moon gear wasn’t for me. And Rega’s new stuff again not for me. Naim, Linn pass not for me, been there done that not my cup of tea. Vintage is for my bedroom so not here.
looking for; Dynamics, good bass control but good separation of notes, sweet top end that’s not edgy or overly bright, midrange that’s involving, huge soundstage maybe the word musical comes to mind. I tend to a slightly warmer side of neutral but not too much. All types of music except classical. I don’t listen above 85db.
ok I think I’ve put enough in here for a reasonable response.
What amps should I consider in this price range new or used? one last thing I live in western Canada.
In the not to distant future, Andrew Robinson (Recovering Audiophile) is going to be doing a review of an amp I import from Canor Audio. The A.I. 1.10 that is a 20w, KT88 based, push/pull. He mentioned it around the 13 minute mark in his review of the Technics integrated which is pretty easy to find out on Youtube.
His feedback thus far has been positive and it might be worth checking out as it is well suited to drive speakers like the LaScala's.
Hay Steve did you settle on a tube amp yet? And congrats of the new LaScala's, I watch your video it was done quite well with much passion.
I was the gentleman who suggested you look at the 45 tube types. I'm again leaning back to tubes again for mine. Its a fence i seem to jump back and forth over haha. Love hate relationship with tubes.
Im late to the party but for anyone interested... I have LaScala AL5's and have tried:
Pass Labs INT-250 (15 Watts Class A) Pass Labs XA60.8 Mono (ALL Class A) Cary SLI 80HS Yamaha 1200 Pass Labs INT-60 Naim Atom Willsenton R8 Tube Amp Luxman 590 AXII
The top 3 for my ears and room (13X18) are the Pass Labs INT-250, then the INT-60 and then the Luxman. The XA60.8 monos are nice but overkill for. the LaScala. Pass Labs has a nice synergy with the Heritage line. A bit fuller than the Luxman, and just as detailed and expansive. The INT-250 has a bit more sparkle than the 60 but the 60 has more density to the midrange, just a hair. Soundstage is slightly bigger with the 250 as well.
If I was buying an all new amp for the LaScala today it would be either the INT-250 or the INT-60. The INT-25 would be an option as well, though that has less mid bass warmth than the 60 and is somewhere in between the 250 and the 60.
The worst pairing was with the Naim Atom, just too bright with the LSAL5. The Yamaha was a tad dry sounding. The Cary was nice but not in the same league as the Pass or Luxman. The R8 was nice and meaty but less refined. I have yet to hear anything better than Class A Pass with the LS speakers. I have not yet tried a SET amp with them though.
At this point I’ve put the luxman L590axii and the LTA amps high on my list. Leben is also a consideration.
I’m also considering some triode labs gear, a Pass Labs integrated (first watt too maybe)
I've not heard any Krell items in over a decade so not sure what their sound signature is like I found them to be a bit dry sounding in the past. I found the older models to be homely in that gun metal gray. The newer ones are much nicer looking I will say. Thanks for the suggestions I’m still doing research. And monitoring this thread. Again thanks everyone. Glen
Looks like the OP has deviated from considering some of the planned
options. The Luxman L-590AXII is one of the best in its price range. It
has replaced the Naim 282/HCDR/250DR in my system. Top notch sound
quality but you need to use quality power cords and balanced
interconnects for optimal or best results.
I'm sure the other alternatives such as Accuphase or Pass Labs will work well too but the Luxman is really something special. The price is also not too exorbitant which is a good thing.
In my experience, buying a good used integrated and having key parts and wiring upgraded by a competent technician is the most cost effective way to achieve true high end sound. I prefer integrated amps because they take up less space and require fewer cables. I've done this with five different integrated amps over the years and have been very satisfied with the results. The two that I currently have - Unison S6 and Pathos TT RR were Stereophile "Class A" stock. The unmodified Pathos TT as you may know is one of the best sounding and most highly regarded integrated amps ever made. Yet all such components are built to a price point which means that they don't feature the highest quality capacitors, resistors, wire, etc. Upgrading parts and wiring in both my Unison and Pathos amps resulted in dramatic improvements in sound - approaching what I've heard from mega-buck separates. The modified Pathos TT is "last amp I'll ever want" good unless I move to a new house and end up with a much larger listening room. Even then, I would be inclined to keep he amp and switch to much more efficient speakers. If you check my Audiogon "Virtual Systems" page there is a photo of the modified internals of the Pathos TT which you can compare with the stock amp. My goal was to make it the best amp it could possibly be, which meant using world's best parts like the huge Dueland Cast PIO tinned copper capacitors, Bybee Music Rails, and Stage III Concepts hookup wire (among other high end components). I spent about $7500 including the cost of the pre-owned Pathos amp. I should note that I consulted with the Pathos factory during the upgrade process and they provided a number of helpful suggestions and recommendations.
I will soon be selling my beloved Krell Vanguard Digital Integrated amplifier at a very tasty price. Mint with all original packaging. 3years left on warranty! Only letting it go because I got a Krell K 300i Digital. The Vanguard is really close to the K300i sonically and offers an extra 50w/ch.
You need an amplifier with a high output impedance /current drive to get the best out of your speakers.Just about every amp recommended here is low output impedance voltage drive and will not be the best choice regardless of how good they might be with normal speakers. That means a tube amp and probably a SET ..OR..a Bakoon.I use a Bakoon AMP 5521 on my folded horns and it works beautifully and sounds superb.I stopped using tube anps when I got a Bakoon.
Audiofound I’m not against Pass labs at all just not their big power amps as I just don’t need 250wpc to drive 105db sensitive speakers. Their class A offerings are very interesting to me. If not a bit over my budget new. Note I’m in Canada so paying US$ is already adding 35%+ to the cost so stretching my budget much past the $10k mark adds significant more money to the cost. $10k is basically $16k+ with exchange, duties and tax’s.
ive had a compete Naim system in the past and was not happy with the sound just not my cup of tea. Let alone the cables, power supplies etc you need.
I’m an admitted Pass Labs fan boy. An int 60 would be a perfect match for you. The first 30 watts are class A (60 watts A/B). I’ve auditioned this amp and it is superb. Top shelf components and build quality and customer service that is second to none. Outstanding amp.
HOWEVER, you don't want a Pass Labs amp among some other names. Soooooo, how about a NAIM Supernait 3. Another outstanding amp. Huge sound, BIG sound stage, stout, tight, bass. Another great amp. Boulder amps are also top notch. My 2 cents.
They are $16,500 retail in the US. Tone Imports is the US Distributor for Riviera and I'm a dealer for the items that Tone distributes (Riviera, Sugden, Leben, Shindo, etc).
The Luxman 590 is an excellent match w/the Klipsch La Scala speaker. My dealer carries both the Klipsch Heritage line and Luxman. The LX-380 would also be excellent. But if your moving away from tubes the 590 would be perfect for your setup.
Glen - here are my two cents - I just got my Krell K300i 8 months ago. You really need to hear this integrated amp. It has great control of the bass - a great soundstage and plenty of power to push my Magnapan 1.7is. Your speakers are much more efficient so you would never be pushing this unit even close to 'running it hard'. It is Class A with a patent on it's design - "sliding bias". You can get it with a built in DAC if you wish - less boxes - I did not - I stream using LUMIN. The unit's build quality is great, and service is great - I have been a Krell user for over 20 years.
If i go SS I'll most likely go Class A so all these big power amps I'll be passing on I have no use of hundreds of watts when 2wpc is enough 30wpc is perfect. So Pass labs if i go that way will be one of their class A amps not he INT250 for example.
CJ I've not looked at them for years since I owned a per-power 16 years ago. mm interesting same as Cary Audio but I hear they have gone down in quality since Denice Hadd retired. Shame some of the most fun i had in audio was through a SLP 94 preamp and SLM 100 mono amps set up driving some Proac Response 2.5's back 15+ years ago now. Time marches forward and we get old haha.
if u are sticking to your super efficient super easy to drive la scala’s and love their sound, and don’t have a huge room, there are so so many low wattage fine, fine amps you can choose from -- 10 grand can be very well spent on some great ones but you certainly don’t need to spend 10k to get some serious magic goin' on...
your list seems to weighed towards much higher wattage units, that will not sound as sweet nor as organic as the super pure se tube amps - i think that is entirely the wrong direction if you are committed to the la scala's
i for one still have some great low wattage amps from years ago, but i just could not live with the various high efficiency/horn/paper cone speakers i have tried over time that they could drive properly - but i haven’t given up, and still keep my cary 300b sei and my wavelength cardinals for that day the right super hi-eff speakers come along...
I've reached out to LTA for more information defiantly a top choice from what I've read. thanks for that suggestion.
Diablo 300 way too much power but the diablo 120 is interesting. I've never had the experience to see let alone hear anything from Gryphon though and I doubt there will be anywhere close to listen. Maybe in Seattle or Vancouver those are the two largest places that are reasonable distance to me that I will travel for this perches if i don't buy used that is.
I'm not apposed to buying unseen as they say if I know the reputation of the company and have many reviews to help judge. But listening touching is ideal of course. Many good suggestions I had not considered thank you all.
Chorus, I did not see any Integrated amps on Merrill's site. coming soon though.
I'll not be looking at Krell, levenson or moon not to my taste but thanks for the suggestion.
Looks like i have a good start to do some thinking and research - listening if I can find a place.
My Plan is to get off this merry-go-round of audio equipment and settle down and just enjoy into retirement.
Thanks again everyone for the excellent feedback and suggestions.
Glen, I just took delivery of a LTA Z10 integrated. My speakers are JBL 580 with a sensitivity of 90DB. The Z10's 12 w/c are more than enough to drive them at high volume settings, not just loud but a full sound all frequencies well displayed. Sound is quite different from SS or tubes. It is just music, the instruments sound very natural and the amp is so quiet. Your speakers at 105db I doubt will need more than 5 w/c. Regards, Dan
I just read the 6moons review on the David Berning designed LTA ZOTL and it sure seems to meet your requirements. It's a very positive review that'll give you a good idea of what to expect:
I need to let you know, however, that I have no direct experience listening to this amp and no association with LTA. I actually use high powered ss amps with larger and inefficient Magnepans in my own system. But I've always loved the palpable, walk through soundstage imaging and natural timbres experienced through a well sorted tube system. I can still appreciate the enticement of a reviewer stating: "The ZOTL Ultranier attempts to strike a balance between triode and pentode where ultralinear topology delivers a less forward presentation but maintains the speed and dynamics of a pentode, then combines it with the rich tonality, organic timbres and three-dimensional meaty imaging of a triode design." Wouldn't we all like to own, or at least experience, a system like that?
“Surprised that Gryphon has only been mentioned once.”
OP prefers ‘I tend to a slightly warmer side of neutral’ and Gryphon sound is neutral. So is Burmester and Vitus.
While I like the suggested LTA ZOTL Ultralinear option, I would not ‘settle’ with LTA without first listening to Accuphase or Luxman Integrated. Like OP, i also prefer the slightly warmer sound and I end up keeping the Accuphase E-650 over Luxman L-509X. My speakers are Tannoy Canterbury’s.
The Linear Tube Audio (LTA) ZOTL Ultralinear was designed for speakers like yours. Tubes last 10-20,000 hours so no issue there. And dead quiet black black background. And with basically a 30 day in-home trial there is zero risk which is what you want when spending that much money. Could be a match made in heaven and end game for you. A no downside value proposition.
I own their microzotl preamp and a pair of their z40 reference amps. Holographic is the best way to describe the combination.
Maybe consider a Viva Solistino, very well designed 18W, SET amp. With your speakers being so efficient this IA, will sound wonderful. I also agree with the other recommendations on the Luxmans.
A couple that are highly regarded but not mentioned yet are Vitus and Gryphon. Another interesting option may be Pathos amps that use tube input but SS (Class A?) output and have the added bonus of being some of the most beautiful integrateds on the market IMHO. Best of luck.
I like the leben 600. Also agree with Luxman or accuphase. Can’t go wrong with those products and klipsch speakers. Been lusting after an accuphase integrated for 10 yrs. . Too expensive in the us.
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