Looking for warm tube preamp (should pair well with Pass power amp), budget $6000

@smodtactical-Call Aric again, have him build you a Motherlode and get off the preamp carousel. No risk, all reward! I have mentioned before, The Motherlode is the only piece of gear I have remain in my rack since the first day of listen.

Any opinion on evo 400 pre ?

I’m considering a bespoke pre with two 6SN7s driving the output transformers, with tube rectifier and choke. No capacitors in the signal path. More research needed as to the import of this, as others mention capacitors.

Got it thanks @decooney 

@smodtactical upgrading to the GE 6550  is supposed to be smoother and wakes up your AR ref5SE preamp a bit, assuming you are still running the stock tube in that spot. Call AR and ask them about how they use to reference the expensive 6N30P-DR / 6H30n-DP Super Tube in their amps. Some like to replace both the 6550 and the 6H30s.  For Plan-B, maybe there is more to be had out of your current preamp before leaping away. Best of Luck. 

 @tricon_dave  High praise for Aric indeed. I was actually going to go with the motherlode before ending up with the ref5se. In hindsight that probably was the better choice for me sonically. Aric is a super nice guy and I love how transparent he is about his builds and what components he uses.

You have gotten a lot of good input.  I was in a similar situation to you recently, looking for a tube preamp to mate with my Pass XA60.8.  After much research, I decided a 6SN7 based preamp was what I was looking for.  That led me to the Aric Audio Motherlode.  Aric worked with me to make it truly balanced with some other enhanced performance qualities.  As a result, the Motherlode XL is now an offered product just slightly above your price range.  

Over the years, I have owned ARC Ref 5, Pass Labs XP22, Doshi Alaap, McIntosh 2500, and Lamm.  While they were all good in their own way, I found each to be lacking in some area important to me.  The Motherlode XL has all the qualities I was looking for and has overcome what these other preamps were lacking (in my opinion).  It is very dynamic and punchy, very detailed throughout the audio band, big deep soundstage with clearly separated images, beautiful tone, and dead quiet. It took my system one step closer to sounding like real live performers.  While I'm still exploring 6SN7 tubes, it is easy to hear differences.  For example, using Hytron 6SN7, it is warmer with softer transients.  With Sylvania Bad Boys it is more neutral and dynamic.  

Most importantly, it mates beautifully with my Pass amps.  No hum, buzz, or tube noise at any volume level.  It is handmade in the US and working with Aric was a true pleasure.  He will build it to your specifications and recommend various tube combinations to suit your taste.  

I didn't know much about Aric Audio before this, but he deserves all of the accolades he is getting on Audiogon and in professional reviews.

Good luck and have fun in the process!

Dave  

I have a BHK Pre and I do not call it warm. Now, I've only used the PSVane factory Tubes and Gold Lions (12au7). The PSV tubes are slightly warmer sounding. The BHK is neutral but "silky" with the tubes I've tried. 

@smodtactical I've built two SP14 preamps using the tubes4hifi.com boards.  You can build it for less than $500 including upgraded capacitors.  The build is quite straightforward with building and wiring to the chassis the biggest pain.  The SP14 sounds very nice but it doesn't outperform my heavily modded Cary SLP-70 although it comes close.  I have yet to succeed in building a SP14 that is completely quiet so that will be a problem if you are planning on using it with efficient speakers or a high powered amp.

@smodtactical 

You've made a significant investment with that ARC preamp.  Stereophile called it a reference piece of gear and that's not something they do lightly.   Since you have the 6550 tung sol tubes coming, you should definitely see what kind of difference that makes.  But chances are with that preamp, I'd expect there to not be big changes.

I think you'd get more enjoyment out of building a preamp than you can imagine.  You become much more involved in what you're doing.  The SP14 uses 6SN7 tubes and there are many different brands of 6SN7, so you'd definitely have more to choose from.   The cost of the SP14 kit is low enough relative to what you've obviously spent elsewhere in your system that you can afford to experiment.

It's a little like comparing the experience of buying a new, hi-end Porsche versus an older sports car that you do all of the work on during weekends.  The new Porsche is an exceptional machine.  Too perfect perhaps.   But that 50 year old Triumph begs for you to know every inch of it before you even get in.

If you really want to get your hands "dirty", consider building an Aikido circuit preamp with one of the boards from Glassware Audio.  It's the same circuit that the SP14 uses, but you'd be using a different power supply and you'd be building it all from scratch.  Then you get a lot more choices regarding power supply, caps, stepped attenuators, etc.  Now THAT would be fun!

@russbutton Should I build a SP14?

And btw I got a 6550 tung sol coming in Ill put in the ARC.

I have a Cary SLP 98 I can let you have for $2000. Let me know.

After much research I went with a Zesto Leto tube pre to go with my Mola Mola Kaluga monos. I am very happy with the result. Not sure if it fits the definition of warm, but it has made me very happy. American made and they have exceeded my expectations.

6h30 is too strong for preamplifier. Try to avoid this tube in preamplifier if you value harmonic sound.

6h30 works well in power amplifier.

Ref 10 is a exception as they use 4pcs each channel and independent tube rectified for each channel.

The 6H30 is a frame grid triode, and like all frame grid triodes (such as 6DJ8s) is prone to oscillation at some very high frequencies unless care is taken in the design. This opens them up to microphonics associated with the parasitics. Its a nice linear tube good for instrumentation but really isn't suited all that well for audio.

The simple way is to find a pre based on 6H30 tubes.  Ayon and AR do this.  Others as well I am sure.

@decooney

There are any number of truly excellent tube preamps at far lower cost. How low would you like to go? The OP has a 10 year old reference preamp from Audio Research, which you’d like to think was pretty good. Has he updated the tubes or done any tube rolling? That would make an enormous difference in his experience at the cost of no more than a couple hundred dollars, not many thousands. That should be his first go-to. That’s where the biggest difference is - not the tube circuit or even the builder. It’s in the damn tubes.

I’ve heard it said that ARC preamps can sound a lot like a solid state preamp. I wouldn’t know myself. I run a VTA aikido circuit preamp I’m quite happy with. New fully assembled ones can be had for $1600. Don Sachs builds the same preamp in a much prettier case for $1000 more, if appearances are important to you.

I’ve always liked the McIntosh C22 (selling for anywhere from $4500 - $6000), but feel they cost more than they sound. The benefit of a C22 is that they hold their resale value and actually appreciate. I very much like their phono section.

What’s much harder to come by, but is very cool, is the Fisher 400 CX (when found on the used market typically sell today for about $4000) . A friend has one fully restored and it’s a worthy competitor to the C22, and it’s GORGEOUS if appearances are important to you.

But the real joy in audio is when you get your hands "dirty". Build it! Build an aikido circuit preamp with the board from Glassware Audio. They are very well received and can probably built for about $600 in parts. There’s no greater joy in audio than being deeply involved in your system.

But if you buy your audio the way rich guys by their sports cars, then by all means go drop $6k or so on a Cary or Manley preamp.

@russbutton "What is it with people who think they have to drop $6000 on a tube preamp? That somehow anything less just isn’t good enough?"

 

>>It’s a "budget" limit set as a guideline<<. There is nothing preventing anyone from presenting something at lower cost and high value.

 

What do you have in mind for less cost to pair up well with the OP’s Pass amp?

If your amp has a balanced input, I think you'll find that it will sound better if the preamp is balanced also. If you go with balanced, there is a standard for balanced operation (and there's no standard for single-ended, FWIW...). This standard is known as AES48 and defines how the grounding works and how the signal travels in the interconnect.

Most 'high end' audio preamp manufacturers seem to ignore this standard; I don't know if its thru ignorance or them knowing they can get away with it. But if the equipment supports the standard you will find that the interconnect cable (and how much you spent on it) will not affect the sound so much (if you've ever heard differences between single-ended cables you know what I'm talking about) and you'll have freedom from ground loops (which can increase distortion if they don't result in outright buzz).

When considering a balanced preamp, ask if it supports AES48. If you get 'what's that?' look elsewhere unless you don't mind flushing $$$$ down the loo.

What is it with people who think they have to drop $6000 on a tube preamp?  That somehow anything less just isn't good enough?

P.T. Barnum was right.

for warmth I second either of the Cary SLPs

Surprised nobody has suggested the Modwright LS100.  I have owned and run McIntosh C2300, C500T and the Aesthetix Calypso Sig and I prefer the LS100.  I run NOS Melz 1578(6SN7) tubes and NOS Mullard GZ37 Fat Bottle and the sound is magical.  Currently paired with Odyssey Monoblocks and couldn't be happier.  New pricing still under your budget and used way under your budget with plenty left over for tube rolling:)

I run a Aesthetix Calypso Signature into a Pass Labs x350.8 about half the time when i want to go 'warm'. I switch that out between the xp-30 as my silly whims change month over month.  Plenty of gain, no compatibility issues, and is super sweet.  I usually run early 50s mullard or 60s amperex to adjust the 'warmness' in both the 12ax7 and 6dj8 positions, although OEM tubes work just fine.  Playback is going through some Wilson DAWs. It's great too since it has HT passthrough and doesn't need to be on to watch TV or do movies.  Plenty of inputs and outputs too....

Why tube in a dac ? I have had several Lampi dacs they are smooth but you loose resolution . A very good R2R dac has better resolution  for a great example 

I bought one, the Denafrips a terminator2 

will give you Everythung you could want and more and it’s only $4700.

the terminator+ is slightly better but $6500  both are pretty much the same except for a few capacitirs , a rounded edge on the Terminstor+ and even tighter specs way beyond hearing . TheTerminstor2 ,and weighs 42 lbs and yes there are service centers in theUS  now , which rare ,very dependable and built like a tank  with all brand name quality parts.

I have a Pass 250.8 on a pair of Wilson Sabrina in a neutral treated room. I run a Pass XP 10 pre amp and the system is neutral or possibly leans toward the warm side. I'd think that it'd be too warm if a warm pre amp was added into the system given the Pass amp. it may be more of a room treatment issue you have  if you find it too bright- or your speakers ? Changing the pre amp out for 6k to possibly gain a slightly warmer sound may not be the best bang, nor the most predictable means of testing things out. Try the EQ settings in Roon if you use it. They're very flexible, you can set many different bands up with varying Q factors, even set pre set curves for low level, loud listening and much more. It's included with Roon.

For the Cary SLP-05, it uses 6 6SN7’s.

mea culpa - should have read more carefully I assumed ARC

Re: "Cary SLP-98" and "SLP-05" preamps and related "upgrades".

TUBES: The overall sound, stage, presentation, tone, texture is easily changed with these tube preamplifiers by utilizing good matched NOS/vintage or quality new issue 6SN7s / CV181s. See other Agon, Audiocircle, and Audio Afficianado threads on this.

CAPS: basic stock, older Jensen, F1 Upgrades, later Mundorf Silver-Gold / Ultimate Upgrade capacitors all sound different. Up to ~200hrs on Mundorfs to form, settle. I’m seeing members making judgement too early, not giving either unit or upgrades enough time to settle in. The sound does change after 100, 200hrs.

INTERCONNECTS: both of these preamp units can be sensitive and responsive to different OFC, OCC, Silver plated ICs. After tube/cap upgrades, ICs become even more notable. Not as beneficial with lower grade stock tubes and stock caps.

Both are decent preamp units in stock form with stock tubes and caps, however can be greatly improved with much better 6SN7s, upgraded caps. After these are done, great interconnects truly show up. All three upgrades are totally worth it IME.

Anyone here who’s done all of these upgrades knows how it brings greater value out of your entire system, components, and speakers. Sure enjoy mine, fwiw.

 

 

Aric Audio Motherload 2, I pair it with FW F8, F3, and Pass XA25. Fantastic!

I swapped in Odam coupling caps, smooth and very clear, fast and transparent.

 

For the Cary SLP-05, it uses 6 6SN7’s.  Two for the balanced inputs and for for the balanced line section.  Not sure why your mentioning the 6H30 and 6N6P.  What am I missing?  I was only talking about retuning the SLP-05. 

If you want to get a warmer sound from your SLP-05 try some NOS tubes. I love the old Sylvania tubes in it. Fuller and smoother then the stock tubes and just all around better sound. If you want a much warmer sound try NOS RCA tubes. I prefer the detail of Sylvania’s but everyone has a different taste and depends on the rest of your equipment. Try Brent at audiotubes.com.

there are NO NOS tubes you can sub for a 6H30 except a 6N6P - most would go into meltdown at the operating points they run at: they are mini power tubes. None would have anything like as low an output impedance. Their characteristics are very difficult to even come close to.

Disagree with the idea of ditching the Pass power amp for ARC when OP is looking for warmer.  I've owned a number of Pass amps, most recently XA25, and currently have a Ref 75 SE.  ARC can be eye opening and very impressive, but doesn't have the warmth, richness, and density of Pass.  They are just different sounding.

As far as preamps, something 6SN7-based like the Cary might the ticket.  I like Von Gaylord as they definitely have the midrange magic, but are minimalist in terms of features if that's important to you.  I also had the CJ CT5 with a Pass XA30.5, which was a great match.  Warm, but pretty open sounding too.

Good luck!

If you want to get a warmer sound from your SLP-05 try some NOS tubes. I love the old Sylvania tubes in it. Fuller and smoother then the stock tubes and just all around better sound. If you want a much warmer sound try NOS RCA tubes. I prefer the detail of Sylvania’s but everyone has a different taste and depends on the rest of your equipment. Try Brent at audiotubes.com. He’ll be a great help and his page tells a lot about the sound of different types of NOS tubes.

A tube change can greatly alter the sound. With new production tubes there sometimes isn’t as huge a sound difference. Some are just bright and edgy.

usec cary slp05 on sale now. the slp 05 is awesome and makes you understand just how much a preamp can do!

I pair mine with a Pass XA25.  wonderful sound. 

 

If you are interested in playing vinyl, Atma-Sphere MP-3 is best in your price.

Not exactly warm but accurate is more desirable. True balanced means pricey IC are not needed. I use $50 Mogami.

The built in phono stage is as good or better than an outboard stage surely more than $6K. And it is big advantage not to have another pricey IC.

@russ69  I lose track of time, but it seems like about a year and a half or so ago I saw Upscale Audio was selling a SLP98 with the upgrade.  Was that the one you bought?  I was looking at that one with interest, especially because I think it had a phono stage(?), & I've kind of had vynyl on my bucket list (I don't think I am going to achieve that one, however) but I did note it didn't have balanced ins & outs & since I paid what I considered (at the time) a bundle for my balanced Kimber Silver Streaks, I guess that may have been my excuse not to buy something I couldn't afford.

I actually got my SLP05 from Cary's preowned page.  I justified also getting The Ultimate Upgrade because then I got free shipping.  That kind of logic is part of why I will not be a wealthy man when I die. 

Although I said that I do not feel the same warmth from my '05 as I do from my '90, I did not mean that was necessarily a bad thing.  I won't call anything "natural" sounding anymore, because I don't know what "natural" is supposed to sound like.  I guess, ideally, maybe I would like to hear what they hear inside the recording studio?  While I enjoyed what I felt was a "warm" sound from my 12au7 SLP90, what I get from my 6sn7 SLP90 is great resolution & detail (which I suppose is what "imaging" is) and a larger sound stage (within my small listening room).   Not that the SLP90 doesn't reproduce detail & imaging, just not nearly as well & to the extent that my '05 does.  I suspect that is something that your 6SN7 SLP98 does as well.

I lack the Golden Ear & the vocabulary to write about this subject, but if anything, I would describe the sound I have with the SLP05 now in the system as being rather "liquid."  Which at one time I think I might have also said about my SLP90, just a warmer "liquid" and not as much of it.

I’d pick up a used Cary SLP-05 preamp and then send it in to them for the Ultimate Upgrade.  Huge improvement over the stock unit.  smoother and cleaner with better low level resolution.  

I've heard some really good ARC amps and I had the total opposite reaction... Don't know what people see in ARC. I would stick to a 6sn7 preamp like Aric Audio, Supratek, or Cary. 

This is a very interesting thread, and in fact, this thread hind a big question mark for us all. It is the pre we ask for.

For example, Audio research Ref 5se, some one try to swap it out and some one call it world class pre. So who is right? What content inside the pre? What we ask for the pre? 

I am here to send my 2 cents:

There are 2 most important fact of the pre. Go small or go large!

Go small, means go detail

There are a lot of sparkles on the recordings, with right pre you can hear very clearly, with another one, you almost can NOT hear it. Some one value this point,

I am the one who value small, you can call small sound.

Go Large, meaning very big 3D imagine, very spacious,  

The sound is very open, and sound becomes big.

The new one might be surprised and call it is the one who ask.

Audio Research Ref 5 se is go large definitely.

Does the pre can go small and go large both????

Seldom!!!!!

So who is who? Different people emphasis on different things.

They both right, they are searching the different kinds of things.

From this point of view, you will not convince the other people to choose what you choose.

People are just different.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If my McIntosh mx110z tube tuner/preamp died, I would fix it or get another, without a sideways glance at another.

I received mine, used it for over a year, then gave it to Audio Classics. 

Best thing they did was replace all the rca jack panels with new gold plated ones.

My advice now, if buying vintage, save a step: have seller ship it directly to your restorer, in my case, here in the east, Audio Classics.

They do this and that, then on to you.

..............................

This one has already been 'done' by Audio Classics.

 

see the new rca jacks.

 

this one, see the old corroded jacks

 

zero noise, fabulous fm, two wonderful phono inputs (I use SUT for MC to keep using mx110z's phono.

McIntosh units have the wonderful MODE dial, very helpful playing Mono LPs, , balance, loudness, tone .... 

ARC has been working from the tube side getting more and more accurate for many decades. Their tube amps are very neutral and natural not remotely syrupy. Your description of what you wanted described it perfectly. Also, ARC gear is very synergistic… the more in the signal path the better it sounds. This way you don’t end up with one component on the cool side and the other a bit on the warm side and loosing a bit of both through subtraction. I never realized how important this synergy was until I added an ARC amp and then an ARC DAC… wow… that was a jaw dropping moment. But still, swapping my Pass x350 for a ARC 160s was perhaps the most consequential change I ever made. 

Aric Audio! Before I acquired the Coda Model 16, I had Aric's Motherlode paired with Pass XA60.8's and XA160.8's, and the results were sublime! Wonderful clarity, without being bright and the warmth I was seeking to round out the solid state slam.  Aric and I worked on the original Motherlode when I was seeking out TRL Audio's, The Dude. I could not find one, so Aric built a close replica based on pics and schematics that he found, and added his own expertise and knowledge to bring out what I wanted in The Motherlode. 

You might also consider a Supratek preamp. 

Thanks,

aldnorab

@smodtactical

I am using a McIntosh C2300 tube pre (into a McIntosh MC152 ss) and really enjoy it. They run about $4k, and I’ve worked with Audio Classics in Vestal NY for all my used McIntosh gear - always had a great experience

I occasionally swap amps and use a Will Vincent pp EL34 - the tube/tube combination stills retains “crispness” and is not overly warm, to my ear (shout out to Will Vincent, another individual tube amp maker creating beautiful pieces for all of us to enjoy - his handle is @autospec )

Let us know what you decide & have a great day!

@smodtactical Just to chime in, the Super, ML II and ML XL (balanced version) are all designed for a neutral and fast sound, with enough warmth to smooth out a solid state amplifier and a couple of mods can be made to provide more of a warm sound. Takman carbon comp resistors, V Cap Odam coupling caps and a slightly lower operating voltage will achieve this. I've had several customers request this to help with taming an apparent stridency or sharpness in their systems. 

Best regards, Aric

Hi @smodtactical, I own three old Arics preamps. A very early 3.5 I think it is,an Unlimited ( it’s a 12a?7 based pre. Aric’s preamps are a tube rollers dream) and a Motherlode II.  I find the Unlimited to be more on the warm side than the Motherlode II. The Motherlode II is neutral with just a sprinkle of warmth. This pre is also VERY responsive to tube rolling.  I’ve never had the pleasure of hearing your Pass Labs amp,however if it has any of the same DNA as the First Watt amps,it will be a joy to listen to.  I hope I answered your questions.

 

      Ray

Both Ear Yoshino and Audio Note have distinctive warm sound and these two UK manufacturers are cherrished by french audiophiles. Their gear sounds much better than any McIntosh, Carry or AR I can think of. We also have here Jadis and some other highly appreciated names. French audiophiles love tubes. For many of them Ear Yoshino 912 is the Holy Grail in tube preamplification, which I have owned too. Very nice and warm sound. However, I personally use today Atma Sphere gear, wich is in my humble opinion even better. It is made in USA. So my first choice would be Atma Sphere MP-3, and second Yoshino 912.

OP,

If you can borrow a ref 75 se, and hooked up in your system,you might change your mind now. Ref 75 se is very powerful, do not be fooled with its 75w specs.

I’m using a JJ 243 preamp with my Pass Labs XA30.8 and really like it. 

the SP14 is just a straightforward Aikido design, as published by John Broskie (see Tubecad Journal for full details) with regulated power supplies. Broskie also supplies pc boards and kits for versions which can use the 6SN7 and just about any other tube under the sun, should you so wish. Just google Aikido linestage, there‘s plenty written on the topology.

 

It was good until I put in a set of 1966 I think..

Telefunken,Mullard, Amperex,  Siemens in 12AU7. That really warmed it up