Looking for warm tube preamp (should pair well with Pass power amp), budget $6000

for warmth I second either of the Cary SLPs

What is it with people who think they have to drop $6000 on a tube preamp?  That somehow anything less just isn't good enough?

P.T. Barnum was right.

If your amp has a balanced input, I think you'll find that it will sound better if the preamp is balanced also. If you go with balanced, there is a standard for balanced operation (and there's no standard for single-ended, FWIW...). This standard is known as AES48 and defines how the grounding works and how the signal travels in the interconnect.

Most 'high end' audio preamp manufacturers seem to ignore this standard; I don't know if its thru ignorance or them knowing they can get away with it. But if the equipment supports the standard you will find that the interconnect cable (and how much you spent on it) will not affect the sound so much (if you've ever heard differences between single-ended cables you know what I'm talking about) and you'll have freedom from ground loops (which can increase distortion if they don't result in outright buzz).

When considering a balanced preamp, ask if it supports AES48. If you get 'what's that?' look elsewhere unless you don't mind flushing $$$$ down the loo.

@russbutton "What is it with people who think they have to drop $6000 on a tube preamp? That somehow anything less just isn’t good enough?"

 

>>It’s a "budget" limit set as a guideline<<. There is nothing preventing anyone from presenting something at lower cost and high value.

 

What do you have in mind for less cost to pair up well with the OP’s Pass amp?

@decooney

There are any number of truly excellent tube preamps at far lower cost. How low would you like to go? The OP has a 10 year old reference preamp from Audio Research, which you’d like to think was pretty good. Has he updated the tubes or done any tube rolling? That would make an enormous difference in his experience at the cost of no more than a couple hundred dollars, not many thousands. That should be his first go-to. That’s where the biggest difference is - not the tube circuit or even the builder. It’s in the damn tubes.

I’ve heard it said that ARC preamps can sound a lot like a solid state preamp. I wouldn’t know myself. I run a VTA aikido circuit preamp I’m quite happy with. New fully assembled ones can be had for $1600. Don Sachs builds the same preamp in a much prettier case for $1000 more, if appearances are important to you.

I’ve always liked the McIntosh C22 (selling for anywhere from $4500 - $6000), but feel they cost more than they sound. The benefit of a C22 is that they hold their resale value and actually appreciate. I very much like their phono section.

What’s much harder to come by, but is very cool, is the Fisher 400 CX (when found on the used market typically sell today for about $4000) . A friend has one fully restored and it’s a worthy competitor to the C22, and it’s GORGEOUS if appearances are important to you.

But the real joy in audio is when you get your hands "dirty". Build it! Build an aikido circuit preamp with the board from Glassware Audio. They are very well received and can probably built for about $600 in parts. There’s no greater joy in audio than being deeply involved in your system.

But if you buy your audio the way rich guys by their sports cars, then by all means go drop $6k or so on a Cary or Manley preamp.

The simple way is to find a pre based on 6H30 tubes.  Ayon and AR do this.  Others as well I am sure.

The 6H30 is a frame grid triode, and like all frame grid triodes (such as 6DJ8s) is prone to oscillation at some very high frequencies unless care is taken in the design. This opens them up to microphonics associated with the parasitics. Its a nice linear tube good for instrumentation but really isn't suited all that well for audio.

6h30 is too strong for preamplifier. Try to avoid this tube in preamplifier if you value harmonic sound.

6h30 works well in power amplifier.

Ref 10 is a exception as they use 4pcs each channel and independent tube rectified for each channel.

After much research I went with a Zesto Leto tube pre to go with my Mola Mola Kaluga monos. I am very happy with the result. Not sure if it fits the definition of warm, but it has made me very happy. American made and they have exceeded my expectations.

I have a Cary SLP 98 I can let you have for $2000. Let me know.

@russbutton Should I build a SP14?

And btw I got a 6550 tung sol coming in Ill put in the ARC.

@smodtactical 

You've made a significant investment with that ARC preamp.  Stereophile called it a reference piece of gear and that's not something they do lightly.   Since you have the 6550 tung sol tubes coming, you should definitely see what kind of difference that makes.  But chances are with that preamp, I'd expect there to not be big changes.

I think you'd get more enjoyment out of building a preamp than you can imagine.  You become much more involved in what you're doing.  The SP14 uses 6SN7 tubes and there are many different brands of 6SN7, so you'd definitely have more to choose from.   The cost of the SP14 kit is low enough relative to what you've obviously spent elsewhere in your system that you can afford to experiment.

It's a little like comparing the experience of buying a new, hi-end Porsche versus an older sports car that you do all of the work on during weekends.  The new Porsche is an exceptional machine.  Too perfect perhaps.   But that 50 year old Triumph begs for you to know every inch of it before you even get in.

If you really want to get your hands "dirty", consider building an Aikido circuit preamp with one of the boards from Glassware Audio.  It's the same circuit that the SP14 uses, but you'd be using a different power supply and you'd be building it all from scratch.  Then you get a lot more choices regarding power supply, caps, stepped attenuators, etc.  Now THAT would be fun!

@smodtactical I've built two SP14 preamps using the tubes4hifi.com boards.  You can build it for less than $500 including upgraded capacitors.  The build is quite straightforward with building and wiring to the chassis the biggest pain.  The SP14 sounds very nice but it doesn't outperform my heavily modded Cary SLP-70 although it comes close.  I have yet to succeed in building a SP14 that is completely quiet so that will be a problem if you are planning on using it with efficient speakers or a high powered amp.

I have a BHK Pre and I do not call it warm. Now, I've only used the PSVane factory Tubes and Gold Lions (12au7). The PSV tubes are slightly warmer sounding. The BHK is neutral but "silky" with the tubes I've tried. 

You have gotten a lot of good input.  I was in a similar situation to you recently, looking for a tube preamp to mate with my Pass XA60.8.  After much research, I decided a 6SN7 based preamp was what I was looking for.  That led me to the Aric Audio Motherlode.  Aric worked with me to make it truly balanced with some other enhanced performance qualities.  As a result, the Motherlode XL is now an offered product just slightly above your price range.  

Over the years, I have owned ARC Ref 5, Pass Labs XP22, Doshi Alaap, McIntosh 2500, and Lamm.  While they were all good in their own way, I found each to be lacking in some area important to me.  The Motherlode XL has all the qualities I was looking for and has overcome what these other preamps were lacking (in my opinion).  It is very dynamic and punchy, very detailed throughout the audio band, big deep soundstage with clearly separated images, beautiful tone, and dead quiet. It took my system one step closer to sounding like real live performers.  While I'm still exploring 6SN7 tubes, it is easy to hear differences.  For example, using Hytron 6SN7, it is warmer with softer transients.  With Sylvania Bad Boys it is more neutral and dynamic.  

Most importantly, it mates beautifully with my Pass amps.  No hum, buzz, or tube noise at any volume level.  It is handmade in the US and working with Aric was a true pleasure.  He will build it to your specifications and recommend various tube combinations to suit your taste.  

I didn't know much about Aric Audio before this, but he deserves all of the accolades he is getting on Audiogon and in professional reviews.

Good luck and have fun in the process!

Dave  

 @tricon_dave  High praise for Aric indeed. I was actually going to go with the motherlode before ending up with the ref5se. In hindsight that probably was the better choice for me sonically. Aric is a super nice guy and I love how transparent he is about his builds and what components he uses.

@smodtactical upgrading to the GE 6550  is supposed to be smoother and wakes up your AR ref5SE preamp a bit, assuming you are still running the stock tube in that spot. Call AR and ask them about how they use to reference the expensive 6N30P-DR / 6H30n-DP Super Tube in their amps. Some like to replace both the 6550 and the 6H30s.  For Plan-B, maybe there is more to be had out of your current preamp before leaping away. Best of Luck. 

Got it thanks @decooney 

I’m considering a bespoke pre with two 6SN7s driving the output transformers, with tube rectifier and choke. No capacitors in the signal path. More research needed as to the import of this, as others mention capacitors.

Any opinion on evo 400 pre ?

@smodtactical-Call Aric again, have him build you a Motherlode and get off the preamp carousel. No risk, all reward! I have mentioned before, The Motherlode is the only piece of gear I have remain in my rack since the first day of listen.

@laaudionut issue with aric is resale value is not too good so if i end up not liking it im screwed. Maybe i can try one of his lower end preamps.

@smodtactical Only because this is a public forum that many people read and extrapolate conclusions, I want to put this out of here. I’ve heard resale being a concern, however I see the occasional Motherlode II, as well as others of my preamps (when available) selling for right about the same percentage of MSRP as many other brands. Example: New Unlimited II which sold for $1250 two years ago selling for $950. The only things I don’t see selling well are custom pieces that the customer wanted to choose colors to match their system and then wonders why nobody wants a yellow preamp (this is a made up example). I understand it's not as easy of a sale, unless the buyer is familiar with the brand and gear however. Best wishes, Aric

Hello,

 

if you can get a Cary Audio SLP-05 from Cary, snag it. You will not be disappointed. Works with just about any amplifier, SS or Tube

@smodtactical I've talked with Aric and emailed back and forth.  His stuff looks great and apparently sounds great but I can't get over what you said. Resale would be lucky to be 50% on a barley used piece. That's thousands of dollars in a matter of weeks.  I'm not just talking about Aric's equipment alone, any of the more obscure builders will have the same issue until you get to Don Sachs or Supratek levels of hype. I wish they would offer a home trial, even if it had a small restocking fee (a couple hundred dollars at most). I suppose business is good enough without the trial so why would it be needed? 

A local Pass dealer I know sells the VTL preamps mostly, rather than Pass' own. I can't imagine one really needs to warm up a Pass amp as it's already designed towards the warmer side but maybe try a used VTL 5.5 preamp.  There's one on another classified website for $5k right now. No idea who the seller is or have any affiliation.

@bhvf you got it bud. Theres a 300b beautiful looking Aric power amp that someone has been trying to sell for a good 2-3 years I think. Originally for $8k and now hes down to $5500 ish and apparently msrp was $14k. It is really brutal and risky.

You are right with  sachs the risk is way lower since his preamps are only around $3k or less and he has a pretty well respected name so your are only going to take a 20-30% hit on it.

I don't think Pass is as warm as people make it out to be. Or it could be im craving lots of warmth cause I love the sound of my crack OTL head amp which is very warm. ATCs are very very neutral (I feel they might even be a touch bright) and so that doesn't help things. ARC known to be neutral as well. So you have neutral speakers, preamp, maybe slightly warm power amp.

VTL (from extensive research) is very neutral and going after that SS/tube hybrid sound. Its actually shockingly tough to find someone who makes a high quality euphonic rich sounding tube amp. It seems most people want neutrality.

Just to be accurate: The amp on USAudiomart was one the customer was determined to choose each and every part, and it was nowhere near $14K. It’s not a reviewed piece, and is not one I currently offer. I would not spend $200 on an IEC jack if it were my choice. Motherlode II sales (the two I’ve seen) were 30% less than MSRP. The two Transcend PP amps I’ve seen sell recently- 30% off MSRP. Let’s at least keep it factual. Peace out.

@smodtactical 

It seems most people want neutrality.

Maybe they want to want neutrality…they want to want “the mic feed in the studio”. The reality is far different. I want to lose track of time, I wan to listen for long periods without dissecting the sound, to stop fretting over the gear. Its almost like many in the hobby (I have been guilty as well) want to buy a salty dish, tame the saltiness with an extremely unsalty preamp or dac or cables, etc, etc. Its really hard to guess, especially without demos. Why is it so hard to get this right? They are random interactional outcomes.

 

Aric likely designs his preamps and amps to interact wonderfully together. Audio Note is a fine example. Shindo as well. How many posts do we see where some says “ Iheard some amazing speakers, I just melted…but I got them home and they dont sound right. “  Take a system approach, respect the designers intent and buy with this in mind. Far too many want to force a fit…the sooner we abandon the bolt on tweakiness, the sooner we find audio happiness.

I sent an email to Roy at tubes4hifi to see if he has any recommendations for a warm sound out of the sp14 (maybe some kind of mods).

I’m going to back up @aricaudio with his statement about the value of his used gear. How can I do this? The reason I can is because I purchased one of the two Motherlode II’s that have come up on the used market. At the time,it was the only one I had ever seen. I stretched my budget a little,and it was worth every penny.

@smodtactical If I too may offer a supportive angle about value and quality of sound some of the smaller lower-volume production builders offer. When we lock into a special preamp or special amplifiers, immediate resale value becomes less relevant because we choose to keep these units and listen them over decades vs. years.

Looking at photos inside of Aric Audio amps and preamps some can see what’s going on there and what makes it extra nice in terms of parts, hand-made layout, construction. Something most of the mainstream manufacturers won’t offer due to higher labor costs. Lifting the hood and looking underneath, comparing, comes next once you learn more.

Even the lower priced (Aric Audio 6SN7 Linestage) is nice, can use different tubes for different sound and presentation, another option if you don’t like tube swaps in your current ARC ref5se. And, we’ve got the designer/builder right here on this forum. This is value-add $ for those of us who seek out the better boutique builders. I’ll go out on a limb to say its likely Aric can get you closer to the sound you seek.  Another reasonably affordable option if the your existing preamp does not work out for you.

 

@rocray If I could have gotten motherlode used I would have to for sure!

I own two of Aric Audio products. One the Special preamp which I purchased from Aric as a demo and the other the Transcend KT88 PP bought used here on AG for ~30% of  current retail. I love both as highly valued great sounding pieces. 

My experience is that Aric is most congenial in his dealings, honest about his products, transparent in his advise, generous with his time and knowledge, and enjoyable to talk with. 

Should I ever own a truly efficient speaker I would not hesitate to purchase one of his SET amplifiers. I believe that his products will hold value as well as any.  Customer support is as good as any. 

It is known by most in this hobby that if one orders a made on demand, one of a kind component, that it would have limited resale market value should it be put up up for sale. 

 

Last summer I was on the hunt for my forever preamp.  I figured I would purchase new,since this was going to be the one.  I had it narrowed down to Don Sachs, Supratek Chardonnay, or an Aric Audio Transcend 6SN7 Line Stage.  I decided against the Sachs solely on the wait time. Now it was down to two choices.  The only other new piece of gear I’ve ever purchased was Aric’s Unlimited preamp.  I had decided at that point I was going to reach out and order from Aric. Literally,right after making that decision,a Motherlode II came up for sale on this site. It was a bit of a stretch budget wise,but it was definitely the right decision.  Aric has always been responsive to any questions.  His gear is top notch. I differ from most folks. When I purchase gear,I look at how the gear will improve my enjoyment only.  Some look at resale in six months,because there is always that itch to scratch. Aric has been around long enough where his gear is getting the reputation it deserves. I feel he makes true high end gear,at human prices.  I’m not saying that there aren’t other great manufacturers out there,because there certainly are. If folks are only interested in getting as much as they can on resale, I think they are already making a compromise.  Remember,you might be ruling out the better gear,simply because there aren’t tens of thousands of used sales records in which to refer. 
 

    Ray 

A BLACK ICE F360...2 friends have purchased this based on what they heard in my system.

It took a THORESS DUAL PURPOSE Preamp to better it!!!

Have a look at the old and new top of the line Canary preamplifiers. Right at the moment there is a new old stock four chassis 803-804 preamplifier for sale on eBay. Each power supply is in its own box as well as each channel is in its own box. Rectifier tubes larger transformers. One of the best in the world in my opinion. 

 

Regards

@aricaudio thanks for the clarification and sorry you are right msrp was $11,500 on the 300b amp. I have nothing but respect for you and your work.

@retiredfarmer not seeing that 4 chassis pre.

@everyone who's commented based on actual experience with my builds, or myself I want to say Thank you. Word of mouth has been integral in keeping me building these products for the past 15 years and I greatly appreciate it. 

 

@smodtactical No worries, and it's much appreciated! On that amp, I don't know how much of that went to the chassis he had Core Audio custom build for him either. FWIW, we started with my baseline amplifier and the client then chose all of the parts he wanted to upgrade at actual manufacturer's cost per part over stock. He demo'd my stock piece which is what inspired him to go over the top on these amps. In my opinion, there's definitely a point of diminishing returns WRT parts cost versus increased performance, which may be why they have not sold. I'm just guessing here... However I have seen my standard Super 300B SET sell several times, for a decent percentage of MSRP  (after not being listed for very long). I'm always forthright with suggesting where to put money as far as component upgrades to gain audible improvements, as there are those components which do not always exceed expectations.

 

Best regards, Aric

 

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/114861919949?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=706-53473-19255-0&campid=5338479717&toolid=10001&customid=a247590a-af79-11ec-8bf1-646237373034

 

 

Regards

 

 

I'm running a Schiit Freya with NOS GE 6SN7GTB tubes into a Pass XA25 with astonishing results...the Freya is too inexpensive for many here, and that's fine...a Stereophile Class A Rated brilliantly designed terrific sounding preamp that out performs and has more features than nearly anything out there...too bad it doesn't cost 5 grand...

@retiredfarmer thanks

@wolf_garcia thats great man, have you compared to any other tube preamps?

I have enjoyed an Audible Illusions PA with a CJ Premier 11A for years, either new or used. Excellent PA

When I had recently received the Freya and festooned it with NOS GEs (a while back...maybe 132 years?) some friends and I had a little shoot out festival with a couple of ARC tubed preamps (one was a "reference" model), a Cary SLP 98, and a VTL something...my Freya stood its ground against all challengers and amazed the gang of audio geeks as a FAR less expensive alternative to the other precious items...possibly why its in Class A now. 

@decooney

Re; The Cary SLP-05, I have not heard the ultimate upgrade but everything you mention about the SLP-05 is right on. Cables and tubes can make a huge difference.

The other important factors are gain adjustment, rectifier and balanced inputs and outputs.

Gain adjustment is critical for having the cleanest and the most dynamic sound. There seems to be a large tolerance but it needs to be considered and not just cranked all the way as a default.

 

The 5AR4 / GZ34 rectifier can be upgraded to a NOS f32 made by Mullard off label for ~ 150.  Best 150 I have ever spent- more open and dynamic.  

I recommend using the balanced connections if at all possible, especially the balanced out to the amp even if the amp is single ended, use a neutrik adaptor.

the dynamics and sound stage are so much better using the balanced out vs. the single ended. not even close !

I also have a Zesto Leto.   It is an incredible sounding piece.  Zesto support is top notch,  I just had George do the ESP power supply mod.   It replaced a Conrad Johnson Classic 2SE , the difference was pronounced.    The Zesto is so life like , it is voiced perfectly.    If I had the cash, I would buy the latest Leto II Ultra.   Best sounding component I have ever owned , used ,or demoed. 

@avanti1960 Based on what @decooney said I feel I might actually really like the Cary sound.

@smodtactical  many of the nice tube preamps mentioned so far could be good, even better with upgraded tubes and higher quality caps in them.  Some providers offer their own optional upgrades when purchased new. Or, when buying used components, finding a good local tech to install / test common upgrades can be another recommended option for consideration. Watch out, replacing and hearing a better quality tube or a better quality cap, can be addictive for all future components. :) 

ghdprentice

"ARC... tube amps are very neutral and natural not remotely syrupy. Your description of what you wanted described it perfectly. Also, ARC gear is very synergistic… the more in the signal path the better it sounds... I never realized how important this synergy was until I added an ARC amp and then an ARC DAC… wow… that was a jaw dropping moment..."

Agree...

I have been using the ARC Ref 5se as a preamp with various SS amps... and... while it sounds fine... it didn’t really have that "tube magic," until I mated it with the ARC Ref 150se amp. That combo added the detail resolution, air, and atmosphere that had been missing.

However, I would not say it is as "tubey" sounding as... say... McIntosh, or maybe some others. If you’re looking for that "phat" sound of tubes... that may not be found in ARC amps, which seem to focus more on "high resolution." That is also my impression of my Atma-sphere M60’s - which, seem to me to have a more neutral, high resolution sound.

I would go hear some ARC and other setups with matching components, before you decide what to do. It will be harder to find "miss-matched" setups to demo, but would be best if you could find them to demo. Otherwise, you’re likely going to be searching (via trial and error) for a while.