There is three acoustic events :
The original acoustic possible event of a listening spectator location choice...
The recorded event by trade-off choices of the recording engineer...
Your own room ability to deliver a soundscape...
There is no REPRODUCTION of a recording IN YOUR ROOM; the cd or the vinyl concrete matter are a reproduction of the acoustical cues choice of the recording engineer yes... ...
but only EXIST for our EARS an acoustic TRANSLATION from these 3 acoustic situations...
And in acoustic science using wisely lateral reflections but more so the back front reflections ratio in a small room, is the way to create an important acoustical experience in our room like in a theater: LISTENER ENVELOPMENT FACTOR...
This "listener envelopment factor" abbreviated by the acronym LEV in acoustic books is a HIGHLY desirable experience with any system/room...I put a link to a thesis in acoustic in my post above explaining that...
The LEV give me the intimate relation with the music like with an headphone but out of my head...Not a mere soundscape between the speakers hell no! thanks!
it seems my relative good sound TRANSLATION is not the "absolute" sound reproduction.of mr Greene..
i will repeat myself: there is no ideal reproduction of a lived event ONLY a translation by acoustic laws and acoustic choices....
People opposing that dont know acoustic and are gear fetichist...
Perhaps the gear engineer rightfully dream to reproduce the sound picked by the recording engineer thanks to them for their art, but the speakers/room relation TRANSLATE the recorded sound CUES with the help of the room sound cues...This new art is acoustic and psycho-acoustic...
😁😊
To my mind, this is a matter of using reflections off the walls, especially the first reflections off the sidewalls, to generate an artificial sense of space. People may like this but it is not really reproducing the recording.
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This is an excerpt by Robert E. Greene from an essay he wrote for The Absolute Sound.
For decades, it has become a fashionable matter to worry about “soundstage,” but this has reached the point that recordings are expected to have a soundstage almost independently of what the recording is—to expect the soundstage to be a property of the playback system rather than reproducing what is recorded. To my mind, this is a matter of using reflections off the walls, especially the first reflections off the sidewalls, to generate an artificial sense of space. People may like this but it is not really reproducing the recording. And the impression is very unstable in detail because it is not really there on the recording. (Some recordings actually have outside-the- speaker images because of phase effects from spaced microphones, but most recordings do not have this in any systematic way). Because of the instability, the idea has arisen that all kinds of things that really have no reason to be part of the reproduction of space at all can be evaluated according to their effect on soundstage, with enlargement being always regarded as better.
If you're truly interested in stereo microphone recording techniques.
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Acoustic in the perspective of the passive material treatment a problem about the optimizing BALANCE between reflection, absorbtion and diffusion ratio...
And yes we can use some amount of reflection at the right spot to create an ACCURATE and BETTER soundscape....
Characterizing all reflections to be a bad outcome in a room is meaningless...
Too much absorption is bad, too much diffusion is bad also...
In a small room using positively the lateral and back refrlections is the way to create "listener envelopment" factor....
It is not my opinion here, pure acoustic science....
If you want research articles proof ask me...
If you put enough reflective plates at different angles around the room, the sound will bounce all over the place.
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If you put enough reflective plates at different angles around the room, the sound will bounce all over the place.
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mahgister: Bro,try dusting your equipment before publishing videos, it might improve the imaging.
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I erred. First time this month! :-) Its a FOZ by Black Ice not Fusion
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rrm, I've been giving some thought to things that you might do to 'improve' your soundstage, but nothing I've come up with can create the outside of your speakers soundstage which you initially indicated that you wanted to obtain. Others have discussed set up of speakers and listening position. I believe someone mentioned the Cardas system which is a good place to start, if you haven't already got a good placement of speakers and listening position determined.
For consideration is an add on devise that has been around for a few years and has gotten good reviews. It is a Fusion FOZ. It is tubed unit which allows you to control the out of out of phase information in your recording. In older recordings (and some new ones as well) which seem to have a too centered image, albeit still stereo, by increasing the strength of the out of phase signal in mix in the recording you can get a much expanded soundstage. Wider/higher/fuller. BUT it will not create sound outside of your speakers on the plane of the speakers, but can easily fill the wall behind you speakers. The good news - it is not expensive and it sort of acts as a tubed buffer (if you want one). The bad news is it is not exceptionally transparent and works best, I think, in a tape loop. Further, by increasing the out of phase signal you do reduce some of the in phase specificity. It has a bass control as well if you need it. The unit is a bit bass rich and you might. Underwoodwally sells them if your interested. They are relatively cheap. Something to think about....or not. :-)
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99.9% of music should appear between or at the speaker. That's just physics. There could be room reflections causing the appearance of sounds outside the speakers but that would be unfortunate. As mentioned, using out of phase recordings can cause a sound to appear outside the speaker span.
Amazing that physics is not the same in 2 rooms....or perhaps physical acoustic is one thing and psycho-acoustic is another field you must consider to exist....
The timing of reflections is one of the acoustic factors with which the Ears/Brain translated sound impressions INTO standing objects located in space in the room...The distribution of the different pressure zones is another one...
The correlation between the direct TWO distinct wavefronts coming from each speaker for EACH TWO ears with a time delay and the back and lateral reflections frontwaves timing is what i used to create in my room the intimate headphone effect of a sound out of my head but incorporating me in the soundscape...(i use Helmhotz diffusers and resonators,ionizers,Schuman generators grid, and a double screen panels with many acoustic devices on it to reflect , absorb or diffuse sound in some balance....
Perhaps you must add psycho-acoustic to physical acoustic in your scientific reading agenda...
Sound waves are not ONLY "rays" coming apart from one another on or from the walls , they are also different zone pressures competing with each others.... The dynamic geography of these pressuures zones and the tiiming of reflections in this geography, determined what i listen to and interpret to be a musical instrument standing at my left or right, OUTSIDE of the speakers vertical plane location...In my room at least.... 😁😊
It is not a mere distortion, a trick coming from out of phase speakers that explain the soundscape appareance, which is NOT an illusion by the way , but a phenomenon emerging from the way the ears/brain read and interpret the speakers/room relation through the recorded information transformed in the waves of sound and ALSO the way the ears/brain read and interpret the recorded acoustic relation of the musical event play back through the room /speakers relation ....it is a double interactive acoustic event: the acoustic of the recorded album with the acoustic of your room .....
The best way for your room to disapear and let the musical playback be optimal is after being put UNDER acoustic control...If not, the recorded event will not be acoustically optimal and will stay a 2-D not differentiated object between the speakers and not a multiplicity of 3-D standing objects or musical instruments around you outside the speakers in most well recorded modern album....
The depth of the sound is not only described as imaging and soundstage in acoustic but also in the " listener envelopment " factor....
99.9% of music should appear between or at the speaker. That’s just physics.
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99.9% of music should appear between or at the speaker. That's just physics. There could be room reflections causing the appearance of sounds outside the speakers but that would be unfortunate. As mentioned, using out of phase recordings can cause a sound to appear outside the speaker span.
Roger Waters amused to death has a few such recordings. Try listening to that ans you should hear some sounds outside the span of the speakers.
Jerry
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For experimental sake just move your listening chair forward until you get the soundstage you are looking for. From that position optimize your speakers forward and back from the front wall. As the speaker move forward the stage should improve but at the expense of bass. Now move back and do the same thing again except move the speakers wider. You’ll finally get to a point that you start to lose the sound stage by just optimizing the placement in your room.
After you’ve reached the best it can be in your room you can start with acoustic enhancements. Simple things like throwing a blanket over your flat screen makes a difference after you’ve optimized the room. There are lots of articles on the interweb about how to determine room interaction but for me without optimization it's hard to determine what acoustic enhancements are actually doing.
Both my ¢s so take it for what it’s worth
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Mahgister, What a rude post!
Who really knows what you hear in your room besides yourself and I fail to see anything in soix’s post that comments on you or your subjective beliefs. Some of what you have set forth in this thread and some others I’ve read makes good sense, but much of what you have said is so lacking in specifics as to make your post(s) incomprehensible. Clearly what soix has said is correct. You should research this subject more carefully and not just rely on your empirical conclusions and fire off such a self aggrandizing post.
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Well,I guess I like the distortion that causes the illusion of expanded soundstage. I have no problem with that.
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That speak a lot about your room and system relation...
Then all my soundstage/imaging/listener envelopment effect are distortions?
Phasing errors?
Half of my recorded albums at LEAST and more present sound outside of the back/front and left /right vertical plane between the speakers, and sometimes the two together and in some case even behind my back or beside my ears like in headphone ?
It is way more probable that your room /system is not up to the task by your own ignorance of room acoustic settings than by my own wrongdoing ? 😁😊
Invoking phase discrepencies to explain a COHERENT acoustical wotking in my room is ridiculous...
Think about your own room/system. defect....I can help you.... Disconnect your equalizer and open your ears....
A well set up system will not image beyond it's speakers with normal program sources.
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As others have said, placement/positioning of speakers along with the recording and how much out-of-phase information is contained on it are key almost regardless of speaker design. Most of the music in my system occurs between the speakers with lots of depth and 3D soundstage, but I’ve got an Opus 3 recording where a good amount of the music extends 6’ outside the speakers. I think Roger Waters’ Amused to Death CD also incorporates a good amount of those techniques. Bottom line — if you’re happy with what’s happening between the speakers I wouldn’t much worry about it. But, pulling the speakers out more and reducing toe-in might help, AND ITS FREE! How many things in this hobby can you say that about? Best of luck.
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rrm, it is not you that have the a problem. It is everybody else. A well set up system will not image beyond it's speakers with normal program sources. Some engineers will do tricks with phasing and delays to throw images beyond the speakers for special effect like Roger Waters's Amused to Death album. If a system is imaging beyond it's speaker it is because reflections in the room are smearing the image that way. It is an indication that more control over room acoustics is indicated.
If you want a wider sound stage either move your speakers a little further apart or move your listening position in closer. If you like a big life size image buy line source speakers like Magnepans or Sound Labs.
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I remember a member saying in a well acoustically treated room the speakers should not require any toe-in regardless of their design. My setup proves he was dead on correct.
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Typically a major factor is the toe in of the speakers and distance between them. Certainly it is speaker dependent. Assuming a good stereo recording.
Are your speakers in an equilateral triable with you seat. How big is that triangle? If too big it can’t support a stable central image. Then start with you speakers pointed to cross 18” behind your head. Then slowly decrease the angle… at some point they should maintain a good central image and the sound field beyond speakers.
My speakers are known for their ability to disappear. But they did not at first. Toe in was to be behind my head. But turned out to work with no toe in.
Also speaker distance from wall (also effects image depth)
Too much reflection from behind speakers.
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Each room has a geometry, a form and a size, and a topology : some openings like doors and windows, and each room has an acoustic content with various properties: a wood furniture dont work acoustically like a rug or a piles of books etc...
Speakers placement so important it is , is secondary to mechanical room control...
Because you can modify the room pressure zone distribution for example with Helmholtz resonators and diffusers and compensate for the geometry and topology of the room and for his acoustic content and even compensate for the speakers needs and the room itself, all of which problems can never be solved by repeating the common place fact about the importance of speakers placement...
Speaker placement is not enough, it is only the FIRST step, the second is passive treatment, and third and the most important for small room , mechanical control....
However, as important as these things are,for me,speaker placement was the most important factor.
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In my experience, it is a combination of three things that have been mentioned. Recording,speaker placement,and acoustic treatment. However, as important as these things are,for me,speaker placement was the most important factor.
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Ultimately I think it is recording dependent. I've heard tracks extend beyond the speaker boundaries, so my system is capable of it. Most tracks are within the speaker boundaries, however.
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Many well recorded albums in classical and jazz are able to give, if the room is well treated and especially mechanically controlled, an imaging and a soundstage outside of the speakers alignment vertical plane, back/front and outside of the speakers to the left and right in many cases...
In some recording the soundstage is oriented more in the front/back direction outside of the speakers vertical plane , in some others recording more in the left /right direction and outside of the speakers vertical plane also.. In many case it is a mix of these two....My soundstage is NEVER between the speakers only, save for mono recording...
My system value is 500 bucks but well chosen... 😁😊The reason why my S.Q. is so good is acoustic mechanical control and passive treatment...Not out of phase phenomenon nor distorted reflections in my case ... 😁😊
In some very good recording the sound even come from my back and behind the speakers and all around me AT THE SAME TIME....This recording for example , you can see the singer walking AROUND you and turning their head singing...:
By the way the more satisfying acoustical factor after naturalness of timbre to enjoy and have it right is not merely imaging and soundstage but LISTENER ENVELOPMENT, the sensation of INTIMACY there is in headphone and the sensation by the listener to be included in the sound source, this sensation is possible if we control the timing between lateral reflections and back and front reflection amount and timing...
Acoustic and control of timing between lateral reflections but also back/front reflections proportion between what is aborbed and diffused is the key...
And advice: dont upgrade to costlier components to reach a bigger soundstage...
The gear is not the main cause of the lack of soundstage and imaging most of the times but defect in acoustic treatment and control...
Never upgrade BEFORE acoustic studies and embedding control and passive treatment done right...You will be astounded by the unknown potential of what you already own is able to reach and do...
No more upgrades for me and no more of my 7 headphones, because my 500 bucks system is enough anyway and beat them all on all count even intimacy....
It is useless to name the brand of my gear and boasting about them, because the main reason of my S.Q. is ACOUSTIC and basic psycho-acoustic knowledge...
But it is mere trivial and common place fact that we cannot enjoy an acoustical factor which is not in the recording to begin with, that goes without saying ... 😁😊
It is less common knowledge that you cannot enjoy an acoustical factor which is in the recording BUT cannot be listen to because of a bad room acoustic treatment and control...People often attribute ERRONEOUSLY this experience, or lack of, to a piece of gear and throw their money in a not so usefull costly upgrade.instead of experimenting with acoustic...
More easy to pay and plug than to think ,Alas!
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Treat the sides of the room.
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Check to see if your preamp or other component inverts polarity. If so you would need to swap the pos and neg leads on your speakers.
How close are your speakers to the front wall? Moving them forward can improve imaging. And using absorbion and diffusion in key areas will improve image, soundstage, and SQ.
My system presents a focused 3D image between the speakers and the soundstage extends beyond the speakers. This can be achieved with proper setup and of course, component selection.
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In-phase signals will appear between your two speakers. Out of phase signals will appear outside the speakers. Speaker placement can cause 1st reflection points to create bounce off walls etc and this can/will create a sense of a wider sound stage, however it comes with some expense, i.e. resolution, and tonal changes. Some folks like this, some folks aren't aware of the difference (or care).
In a well set up system you should not hear sound from beyond the outside of the speakers unless it is in the recording.
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