Limited soundstage between speakers

Reflections must not be suppressed completely OR enhanced over absorption ...

They must be USED in some RATIO and some TIMING....balance between reflections, absortion and diffusion in a specfic room is the key....

Lateral reflections and back reflections especially...

 

Why my soundscape is so good otherwise?

My dac brand name alleged quality?

No....

My speakers brand name alleged design ?

No....

My amplifier brand name miraculous power?

No ....

Basic acoustic and psycho-acoustic knowledge and experiments...Yes....

😁😊

 

Suppress early reflections more, or find a way to enhance them?

To “purify” is the key.

There exist three embeddings dimensions to control: electricial one is only one...

Vibrations/resonance negative effect of the gear is hugely underestimated too...

Vibrations mechanical control is a key...I know you know it well using springs like me...it is a transformative move to control vibrations...

But acoustic is the last and more important key and more complex to get it right than the other 2....And hugely more impactful for all acoustic cues...

But no embedings control alone , be it mechanical, electrical or acoustical can replace the other 2...None.... Acoustic control cannot decrease the negative effect of the speakers vibrations for example ...

Then there exist three keys...

But trust me acoustic is the more impactful for sound perception ....

My best to you....

Treat your room.

Yes but treating a room with passive absorbing or rflective surfaces or difusive one,  is not the same thing  as  controlling the room mechanically...

Thats the point of my posts...

passive treatment is necessary and also some mechanical control with Helmholtz resonators and diffusers...

 

 

Very great informative and on the spot post... Thanks....

I think the same and my experience corroborate your impression about acoustic even if our system/room are different... ...

 

I don’t feel it’s appropriate to think of room reflections as distortion. Ideally they add something nice to the listening experience. Our brain is very adept at discerning the original signal from a reflection most of the time, so distortion in equipment will generally have a more damaging effect to our listening pleasure than a room reflection, although in some cases reflections can sound very bad and ruin the sound quality. Stereo imaging is already messed up in a simple 2 channel configuration due to immediate crosstalk from the speakers reaching both ears. This is probably why most people don't enjoy 2 channel audio in an anechoic space, while more channels with a good mix can sound very good.  With just 2 channels it can be argued that we really need some appropriate reflections to smooth out the otherwise intense crosstalk comb filtering created when 2 channels are playing the same thing to create a center image. I can relate to rrm’s frustration and have had to strike a balance between imaging precision and a more enveloping and spacious experience. My speakers are fairly narrow in their dispersion above 600Hz and that makes for very little of the beyond the speaker experience, except with that Roger Waters stuff, and at least one Madonna album I heard. There’s more than just getting that effect though. Listening to a wider dispersion speaker with great off axis smoothness that my co-worker brought in to the office, I was beguiled by the life and vividness it added to have more early reflections informing my ears. Sounds seem to hang in the air around the speakers like halos. Honestly I don’t get the effect of live acoustic instruments ever doing that but I like it! It comes at the expense of a very shimmery high end that could get fatiguing, like looking at sparklers for too long. They’re pretty but they’ll burn a hole in your retina. Still, I’m tempted to re-do my mid and high horns for a bit wider dispersion to add a little zest.

 

I believe you...

I live the same experience in my own way...

 

Components and diffusor  and Diffuser/absorber room treatment.

One of my rooms.....

Omni speakers....

Diffusors......

Diffuser/absorbers for 1st reflection points

(Previously used for direct radiators but still are magical)

Vaulted ceilings...

Panoramic yet convincingly real and live recordings are simply incredible.

1200 dollar system sounds like 12k or better.

It is easy to hear bad reflection because too great amount or bad timing between them...

Acoustic is really about how to train  our ears....it takes only time, no money....

And i used also re- configuration of pressures zones of the room with Helmholtz resonators and diffusers..Very  powerful....

@mahgister I didn’t read your manifesto but I hope he isn’t just suffering from bad reflections. I did address that in my original post. --Jerry

Thanks for your approval or interest...

I am a retired old fool who take refuge in music after my acoustic journey ending, against a world becoming completely mad...

No common basis of discussion...

in sound/music the common basis is essentially acoustic and psycho-acoustic...Gear choices so important they are, are second to acoustic ... Guess why?

 

In geopolitic it is simple agreed facts are the common basis  not propaganda....

If we cannot look for a common basis of discussion grounded in simple facts in the world, not propaganda, there will be no peace; and if we cannot look for a common basis of dicsussion grounded in acoustic facts not gear obsession there will be no musical acoustic optimal experience ...

Different worlds, same madness... Propaganda or publicity, always lies....

+1 mahgister

 

 

 

This is a myth coming from the gear fetichism obsession and ignorance in most audiophile circle...

And dont confuse my perspective with the obsessed objectivist measures deluded crowd facing the subjectivist "tasting" gear crowd by the way....two groups linked by the same gear fetichism but in opposing direction... 😁😊

 

 

There is no PERFECT REPRODUCTION from a recorded cd or vinyl, there is ALWAYS a  RELATIVE TRANSLATION from the recorded acoustical cues of the original lived event, but interpreted and selected by the trade-off calculus of the recording engineer INTO your speakers/room acoustic relation ..

You have here one set of acoustic choices translated to another set of acoustic choices determined by the geometry, the topology, and the acoustic content of your room...

A relative  translation never an identical reproduction is possible... Acoustic and psycho-acoustic science determine what is sound and music experience in a room... Not electronical engineering by itself alone sorry...

No acoustian give a dam about gear fetichism, no musician either , guess why?

Think about it....

My goal is to reproduce the recording as accurately as possible.

If this album soundscape is only  in between your speakers common  plane, and dont fill the room with the organ near your listening position outside of the speaker completely and the drum behind the speakers with the sax in front of the speaker, your speaker room relation is not well controlled...

one of my favorite guitarist...

 

Nobody need the same exact "tweaks" nor gear, nor exact room treatment or room control..

But everybody need minimal room acoustic and vibrations control and a lower electrical noise floor ..

it seems you have it with your own room /system...

If your sound is not confined in between the speakers axis only and if the instrument timbre and imaging is good...Congratulations!

These are different genres. I don’t have the tweaks that @mahgister uses. I use balanced power conditioning, component isolation, with equilateral triangle speaker setup and room treatments.

See one of my first post above in this thread this recording of the Three penny  opera of Kurt weill amazingly well recorded...

When i listen to is see singers all around waliking, truning their head, the oechestra behind speakers and voices all around me outside speakers, and even beside and NEAR my ears and almost coming from my back....

Acoustic control of the room explain why my room is able to translate the recording cues in my room environment...

Maghister, please give example recordings where the soundscape extends well beyond the loudspeakers.  Thank you very much in advance.

Comical!

First your remark here made absolutely no sense at all because the acoustic of a personal room dont need to be the exact replica of a mixing studio :

Uh, I doubt the recording engineers used Helmholtz resonators when they mixed the recording.

 

 

Here it is easy to understand that you listen to your system perhaps in some room with some acoustic passive treatment but not to a mechanically controlled room if the sound scape of your system/room stay between the speakers 95 % of the time.... This illustrate the importance of Helmholtz mechanical control for fine tuning specific speakers to as specific room...Because most of my albums not only have imaging but a depth sound scape out the speakers surface axis in the front/back direction , not so often in the left/right direction outside of the speaker... like i say in some rare recording it is even better, my soundscape may come AROUND me and from behind or some voices be beside my ears with the orchestra behind the speakers inside the wall...

lso, as a reviewer I got to hear many $500k+ systems in well-treated rooms, and in NONE of them did I hear 50% of the sound coming from outside the speakers unless the recording called for it, and 95% do not

 

 

Also being a reviewer you may probably be like many audiophile a "gear fetichist" sorry, ignoring the power of acoustic and especially of psycho-acoustic, thinking that S.Q’ come directly from the system speakers instead of the system/room...

Divide the speed of sound by the size of your room if you want to know how many times in one second the soundwaves crossed your room and your ears to understand how REFLECTED waves play also a fundamental role even in NEAR listening position in most small room...In my room it is 13 times per second....If you want to know my room dimension use the speed of sound and make this child calculus...

You sell gear upgrade, i sell creativity and acoustic method at no cost in a dedicated room...

By the way i never pretended that my system is BETTER than most, it is only a relatively well chosen basic low cost one vintage; in the contrary i know perfectly well that half people in audiogon own better system than mine BUT IN BAD ACOUSTIC environment or in not so well treated and controlled room for sure....

My bet, you’ve constructed a room that radically diffuses the sound so you get width at the expense of center fill. You could get that much easier with some cheap Bose 901s. Again, you’re off on your own island and I don’t even understand you.

 

 

You are comical ...I dont bet often myself sorry, i made 2 years listening experiments in my room, enough to know that between DIFFUSION/ ABSORPTION/ REFLECTION, what matter is the appropriate ratio to apply for a scpecific speakers/room /ears relation...

And by the way the first acoustical factor to get right to begin with and the last one to get right in an ongoing set of experiments is naturalness of TIMBRE perception...You cannot have timbre right with DISTORTIONS and excess of diffusion , or excess of absorption or excess of reflections... You cannot have piano timbre right in a bad pressure zones room distribution... Read about timbre perception in acoustic and psycho acoustic...

Timbre perception is the most important acoustic cue... The guide to tune a room, not listener envelopment factor, not imaging and not soundstage...Because you can have "some" imaging with an imperfect system/ room but you cannot have a good instrument timbre in an imperfectly controlled room... Natural sounding Timbre is the hallmark of audiophile experience...

You dont understand me because you read too much audio articles magazine and not enough acoustic/psycho acoustic basic...I dont read marketing article ...

Try Helmholtz...And dont bet about room acoustic you dont know about....

All acoustic effects you dont know about are not explained by alleging "out of phase effect " from the audio system, or excess diffusion or excess reflections in a room ...

I am not deaf, i dont listen to any of my 7 headphones, do you think that i prefer distortions all across my room to a good Stax headphone?

If i could bet with you,  i will  bet you never know what the acoustical definition of "listener envelopment "means in psycho-acoustic, and the way to gain it,  and i bet you never wrote about it in your reviews about the gear...

It is a safer bet than reducing my room to be a distorted mirror with no coherency because you dont know acoustic basic BY YOURSELF AND WITH YOUR EARS experiments......

😁😊😊😊😊😊

I apologize for my impertinent answer to your presomtuous post...

My best to you....

 

 

Sorry but out of phase cannot be coherent like the acoustic factor which is "listener envelopment"aka LEV...And nobody will put 7 headphones in a closet like i did because of out of phase effect in his room is not it ?...

Educate yourself in basic acoustic...I even post a doctoral thesis explaining it in a post above...

Most of the times my music is in a depth dimension in the axis back/front and my soundscape impression are like an headphone intimate listening but the sound is out ofmy head...

My room is dedicated and contains at least 100 Helmhotz resonators, and diffusers also... A grid of 12 cheap Shumann resonators, 3 types of ionizers, a passive material treatment also with a balance between absorption, reflection, and diffusion...

I use also a wood screen behind me with many acoustic resonators and diffusers using with it the back reflections and lateral one to create this headphone effect...

The sound fill my room OUTSIDE of the speakers plane ...

if you dont know anything about acoustic for sure you dont know how to create listener envelopment and you dont even know what is the Helmhotz method...

Then in your ignorance it is better to explain my soundscape by "out of phase" effects but anyone reading my description about my acoustic coherent soundstage and imaging and listener envelopment know immediately that distortion cannot create a coherent image for all albums with different audible acoustic cues; and out of phase effect even if they are in my room cannot ERASE my acoustic devices power by itself anyway....

 

 

If you dont understand something it does not means that my posts make no sense... It means you dont KNOW the power of acoustic in a speakers/room relation... You are not alone, most audiophile ignoring acoustic speak about their gear in a fetichist way, ignoring that we listen to the Systen/room not to the system ALONE and by itself....

If someone has never lived through an acoustic transformation it is unbelivable anyway....i spoke by experience and experiments....

 

Experiment you may try at NO COST : put a set of plumber tubes vertically in your room of different lenght, do nothing else, the change negative or positive will be evident... Then tune them like i described and transform them in an Helmholtz resonators or in a diffuser and you will begin to understand...This is a mechanical tuning of the room by Helmholtz method but this cannot replace passive material treatment no more than passive material treatment alone can replace Helmholtz mechanical method...Acoustic is more complex than " buy an upgrade and plug it in the wall " yes....But it is also more powerful than most uppgrade anyway and cannot be replace by an upgrade...Most people dont get it anyway ....

This is only a simple experiment , no cost at all...Some junk discarded plumber tubes of various size is better...After assessing for yourself  the negative or positive effect you will know and then the hard task will be fine tuning.... it takes only time and fun listening of music... Simple no ?

Acoustic at the end process alas! is a complex set of experiments yes, but it may cost NOTHING...I never bought any costly products.... Then have fun....It cost time and listening experiments yes to fine tune a system/room relation...but it is fun....

LIke me you will perhaps discover that upgrading your gear may be meaningless considering the ratio S.Q. / price ratio you already enjoy after acoustic tuning...

My best to you, apologizing for my rant, but that can be useful for someone here if not for you....

After all, how many people inform us all about acoustic power in audio thread with words enough powerful to ask for the attention necessary in this IMPORTANT audiophile underestimated matter ? Not many and those who speak about spoke about it with a too low voice to be understood in the general gear fetichism pervading audio thread...

 

+1 @newbee and @mahgister your system is wired out of phase if this is what you hear. Frankly, I don’t understand half your posts, and the other half I just flat out disagree with. You’re an odd duck dude.

There is three acoustic events :

The original acoustic possible event of a listening spectator location choice...

The recorded event by trade-off choices of the recording engineer...

Your own room ability to deliver a soundscape...

 

There is no REPRODUCTION of a recording IN YOUR ROOM; the cd or the vinyl concrete matter are a reproduction of the acoustical cues choice of the recording engineer yes... ...

 but only EXIST for our EARS  an acoustic TRANSLATION from these 3 acoustic situations...

 

 

And in acoustic science using wisely lateral reflections but more so the back front reflections ratio in a small room, is the way to create an important acoustical experience in our room like in a theater: LISTENER ENVELOPMENT FACTOR...

This "listener envelopment factor" abbreviated by the acronym LEV in acoustic books is a HIGHLY desirable experience with any system/room...I put a link to a thesis in acoustic in my post above explaining that...

The LEV give me the intimate relation with the music like with an headphone but out of my head...Not a mere soundscape between the speakers hell no! thanks!

it seems my relative good sound TRANSLATION is not the "absolute" sound reproduction.of mr Greene..

i will repeat myself: there is no ideal reproduction of a lived event ONLY a translation by acoustic laws and acoustic choices....

People opposing that dont know acoustic and are gear fetichist...

Perhaps the gear engineer rightfully dream to reproduce the sound picked by the recording engineer thanks to them for their art, but the speakers/room relation TRANSLATE the recorded sound CUES with the help of the room sound cues...This new art is acoustic and psycho-acoustic...

 

😁😊

To my mind, this is a matter of using reflections off the walls, especially the first reflections off the sidewalls, to generate an artificial sense of space. People may like this but it is not really reproducing the recording.

 

 

 

 

Acoustic in the perspective of  the passive material treatment a problem about the optimizing BALANCE between reflection, absorbtion and diffusion ratio...

And yes we can use some amount of reflection at the right spot to create an ACCURATE and BETTER soundscape....

Characterizing all reflections to be a bad outcome in a room is meaningless...

Too much absorption is bad, too much diffusion is bad also...

In a small room using positively the lateral and back refrlections is the way to create "listener envelopment" factor....

It is not my opinion here, pure acoustic science....

If you want research articles proof ask me...

 

 

If you put enough reflective plates at different angles around the room, the sound will bounce all over the place.

 

99.9% of music should appear between or at the speaker.  That's just physics.  There could be room reflections causing the appearance of sounds outside the speakers but that would be unfortunate.  As mentioned, using out of phase recordings can cause a sound to appear outside the speaker span. 

Amazing that physics is not the same in 2 rooms....or perhaps physical acoustic is one thing and psycho-acoustic is another field you must consider to exist....

The timing of reflections is one of the acoustic factors with which the Ears/Brain translated sound impressions INTO standing objects located in space in the room...The distribution of the different pressure zones is another one...

The correlation between the direct TWO distinct wavefronts coming from each speaker for EACH TWO ears with a time delay and the back and lateral reflections frontwaves timing is what i used to create in my room the intimate headphone effect of a sound out of my head but incorporating me in the soundscape...(i use Helmhotz diffusers and resonators,ionizers,Schuman generators grid, and a double screen panels with many acoustic devices on it to reflect , absorb or diffuse sound in some balance....

Perhaps you must add psycho-acoustic to physical acoustic in your scientific reading agenda...

Sound waves are not ONLY "rays" coming apart from one another on or from the walls , they are also different zone pressures competing with each others.... The dynamic geography of these pressuures zones and the tiiming of reflections in this geography, determined what i listen to and interpret to be a musical instrument standing at my left or right, OUTSIDE of the speakers vertical plane location...In my room at least.... 😁😊

It is not a mere distortion, a trick coming from out of phase speakers that explain the soundscape appareance, which is NOT an illusion by the way , but a phenomenon emerging from the way the ears/brain read and interpret the speakers/room relation through the recorded information transformed in the waves of sound and ALSO the way the ears/brain read and interpret the recorded acoustic relation of the musical event play back through the room /speakers relation ....it is a double interactive acoustic event: the acoustic of the recorded album with the acoustic of your room .....

The best way for your room to disapear and let the musical playback be optimal is after being put UNDER acoustic control...If not, the recorded event will not be acoustically optimal and will stay a 2-D not differentiated object between the speakers and not a multiplicity of 3-D standing objects or musical instruments around you outside the speakers in most well recorded modern album....

The depth of the sound is not only described as imaging and soundstage in acoustic but also in the " listener envelopment " factor....

99.9% of music should appear between or at the speaker. That’s just physics.

That speak a lot about your room and system relation...

Then all my soundstage/imaging/listener envelopment effect are distortions?

Phasing errors?

Half of my recorded albums at LEAST and more present sound outside of the back/front and left /right vertical plane between the speakers, and sometimes the two together and in some case even behind my back or beside my ears like in headphone ?

It is way more probable that your room /system is not up to the task by your own ignorance of room acoustic settings than by my own wrongdoing ? 😁😊

Invoking phase discrepencies to explain a COHERENT acoustical wotking in my room is ridiculous...

Think about your own room/system. defect....I can help you.... Disconnect your equalizer and open your ears....

 A well set up system will not image beyond it's speakers with normal program sources. 

 

Each room has a geometry, a form and a size, and a topology : some openings like doors and windows, and each room has an acoustic content with various properties: a wood furniture dont work acoustically like a rug or a piles of books etc...

Speakers placement so important it is , is secondary to mechanical room control...

Because you can modify the room pressure zone distribution for example with Helmholtz resonators and diffusers and compensate for the geometry and topology of the room and for his acoustic content and even compensate for the speakers needs and the room itself, all of which problems can never be solved by repeating the common place fact about the importance of speakers placement...

Speaker placement is not enough, it is only the FIRST step, the second is passive treatment, and third and the most important for small room , mechanical control....

 

 

However, as important as these things are,for me,speaker placement was the most important factor.

 

Many well recorded albums in classical and jazz are able to give, if the room is well treated and especially mechanically controlled, an imaging and a soundstage outside of the speakers alignment vertical plane, back/front and outside of the speakers to the left and right in many cases...

In some recording the soundstage is oriented more in the front/back direction outside of the speakers vertical plane , in some others recording more in the left /right direction and outside of the speakers vertical plane also.. In many case it is a mix of these two....My soundstage is NEVER between the speakers only, save for mono recording...

My system value is 500 bucks but well chosen... 😁😊The reason why my S.Q. is so good is acoustic mechanical control and passive treatment...Not out of phase phenomenon nor distorted reflections in my case ... 😁😊

In some very good recording the sound even come from my back and behind the speakers and all around me AT THE SAME TIME....This recording for example , you can see the singer walking AROUND you and turning their head singing...:

 

 

By the way the more satisfying acoustical factor after naturalness of timbre to enjoy and have it right is not merely imaging and soundstage but LISTENER ENVELOPMENT, the sensation of INTIMACY there is in headphone and the sensation by the listener to be included in the sound source, this sensation is possible if we control the timing between lateral reflections and back and front reflection amount and timing...

Acoustic and control of timing between lateral reflections but also back/front reflections proportion between what is aborbed and diffused is the key...

And advice: dont upgrade to costlier components to reach a bigger soundstage...

The gear is not the main cause of the lack of soundstage and imaging most of the times but defect in acoustic treatment and control...

Never upgrade BEFORE acoustic studies and embedding control and passive treatment done right...You will be astounded by the unknown potential of what you already own is able to reach and do...

No more upgrades for me and no more of my 7 headphones, because my 500 bucks system is enough anyway and beat them all on all count even intimacy....

It is useless to name the brand of my gear and boasting about them, because the main reason of my S.Q. is ACOUSTIC and basic psycho-acoustic knowledge...

 

 

 

But it is mere trivial and common place fact that we cannot enjoy an acoustical factor which is not in the recording to begin with, that goes without saying ... 😁😊

It is less common knowledge that you cannot enjoy an acoustical factor which is in the recording BUT cannot be listen to because of a bad room acoustic treatment and control...People often attribute ERRONEOUSLY this experience, or lack of, to a piece of gear and throw their money in a not so usefull costly upgrade.instead of experimenting with acoustic...

More easy to pay and plug than to think ,Alas!