jackd, I also thought of the STA200 amp for the OP.
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I own an STA200 and it is in fact a great little amp if you have the right preamp for it but in my almost 20 years with three different Vandersteen models my favorite amplifier match was Odyssey. For $995 the Khartago is as good as you are going to get and it's higher input sensitivity makes preamp choice a lot easier. The Khartago was a great match for several years with a pair of 2CE Sigs at my house and more than held it's own with Treo's. Plus there is a 20 year transferable warranty. |
@mrdecibel Sorry if that seemed defensive, I riffed off your suggested 3 by Referencing a system built around them.... but omg yes, what a boring world IF we had was one brand of speaker.... i respect your experience and contributions here :-) and I learn stuff from you re the all class A DH-220 i built one of those kits about every month to help put me they college.....maybe all that solder got to me or the beer... |
@mzkmxcv: It seems a tad unfair to criticize a manufacturer for not providing a graph when they summarize a lot of data relevant to consumers. It is more unfair to criticize George for relying on such specs regarding Schiit amps without graph data when you thereafter recommend gear not having graph data: https://emotiva.com/products/pa-1 Same with the Outlaw amp recommendation. |
tomic, I very well appreciate you being a Vandy fanboy, as I understand their many attributes. You seem defensive, and no need to be. Although I mentioned I was not a fanboy ( I am not a fanboy of many brands, as indicated ), I never suggested the op change from Vandys, which you seem to have missed. I am a horn guy, so apples to oranges. As I suggested, the larger 3s, or the addition of a powered sub with crossover, would possibly do for the op everything he is looking for. BTW, the majority of pro amps I have been accustomed to, have one thing in common : they have " balls ". OP, can you tell me about your fan mod, as I have done them also ? Enjoy ! MrD. |
fanboy who owns Klipsch, Apogee, Dynaco, ADS, Thiel, Quad..and ..and....and.... But sure, I do appreciate Vandersteen I know a guy with an absolutely killer system all sourced used.. SOTA Sapphire Sumiko arm Ortofon Black ARC SP-17 Threshold 200 Vandy 3a SIG but so correct, reading and writing about it, aint listening... re your question about Odyssey- power supply, cap, resistor changes as you move up the line. My brother in law had 2c w Kahtargo in his big room glorious but 2 c overpowered his smaller den, so he moved to 1ci with the same amp...very sweet. |
Thanks Mr Decibel. That’s just it, I don’t know if I’m missing anything with my amp, other than it is one Fugly box. But I have it tucked away where it won’t offend anyone. All I care about is SQ any way. I did the fan mod, so the thing is quiet as a mouse to boot. Just not sure how it compares to an "audiophile amp" since I’ve never owned one. Not sure if I’m missing anything and I suppose I won’t know until I try no matter how many forum posts I do. Regarding a powered sub, Yes, I do plan on getting one soon (sometime over the next year) Next month, I am getting a new preamp. Last month I got a new turntable cart, so, I am working my way there.... I do like the idea of getting the latest Vandy 3A Signature. Would have to get used and I think those are sometimes available in the $1500-$2000 range, which is quite a deal considering this is a 5K speaker. (although, I would still be left wanting since my real dream speaker is the Treo CT, which will be out of reach for the considerable future). Might be able to swing the 3’s though, good call. MOAR Vandy is always good. |
Thinking about your situation, why do you feel it is your power amp that seems to be the weakness ? I read up on the amp, and some users are saying it was better than their QSC and Crowns, both of which I owned many. In my remaining arsenal of power amps, I have some Yamaha pro amps and a Smart Theatre Systems TA 242 ( a Hafler 220 on Steroids, biased in class A ), and they all do very well on my Klipsch Lascalas and Heresy 2s. Not to turn this around, but, I have owned Vandys, up to the models 3, and although I understand Tomic and others being fan boys, they were not my cup of tea ( not just Vandys ). Maybe you should step up to the 3s, as they will give you " more ". What other speakers have you owned ? Again, I am not looking to start any trouble here, but, being a retired audio consultant with quite a bit of experience with lots of equipment, I am just saying. Another thought would be, to get a powered sub, and if possible, with some crossover that can roll off the Behringer / 2Cs from handling the last octave or so, and take over from there. The Vandys will be more open and dynamic, and it might be that difference you are looking for. These are my thoughts. Over and out. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Good suggestion! On one hand I wouldn't say I hate my behringer pro-amp. The thing is quite a beast (does 450watts/channel into 8 ohms, 750WPC at 4 ohm) Also, weighs close to 40 lb with a huge toroid transformer. But those are built for cranking full blast for hours at a time in pro-audio use scenario. Not sure if I'm missing something by not having an amp meant for serious 2-channel listening. Guess I need to do what tomic says and just buy a couple and see if I can notice a difference. Shoot...always comes down to that doesn't it. |
OP- you mentioned wanting to improve bass. I'm also using Vandy 2Cs and couldn't get much bass at all no matter which amp I tried. Finally, I played around with speaker position per Johnny Rutan's (AudioConnection) recommendations and found the missing bass by getting the speakers 9" from front wall (measured from back of speaker). |
The STA200 is A/B. Two aspects to be aware of is that it is very sensitive to input voltage and doesn't provide amy more power into 4ohms than into 8ohms (80wpc). It is a very quiet and clean sounding amplifier well suited to a passive pre and best matched with 6-8ohm speakers. Currently being offered at $429 from Audio Advisor making it a great amp for a budget system when so paired. Within my closet of goodies, I can put together a system consisting of: Schiit DAC ($99), Schiit SYS ($50), STA200 ($429), Focal Chorus 706s (latest addition) ($549), Blue Jean LC-1 interconnects ($70), Audioquest Type 4 speaker cables (used $35), steel speaker stands (used $25). System price $1250. Sometimes substitute B&W 685s (used $300) for the Focals. All that said, if I had ~$1000 to spend on an amplifier and the funds for remaining system to compliment, I would purchase the Odyssey knowing it would provide greater flexibility, and better serve if inclined toward an upgrade path. Peter_s, I own a BEL 1001 MK5, produced in summer of 2007. Probably the single best piece of equipment I own. Great amplifier! It is the reason I don't own an Odyssey. Found it at a dealership in 2011 hidden in the corner. |
@mofojo yep...mentioned that many days ago....great amps w Vandersteen 2’s..and lots of other musical speakers... and with a factory upgrade path in the future as funds allow... now back to the near endless class D vs all comers, I can read specs debate.... bstat..why not buy both and flip the loser, then you will know and can INFORM us..... |
The Hypex NC400 is stable down to 1ohm. And the rest of that story goes. Because of severe current limiting, my car radio is super stable it can take a dead short all day long so can my walkman, that doesn’t make it an amp that can give huge current down to 1ohm. What a smoke job!! george, I have no idea which amp is best.bstatmeister OP asked " So the STA-200 vs. Schiit Vidar is an interesting comparison. What would be the pros and cons of each be? I said https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1726421 All you have to do is look at the inside of the two, and if you know what your looking at, for the little difference I would go the Schiit Vidar. Cheers George |
george, I have no idea which amp is best. But I have the STA200, check the audio advisor customer ratings and those in the thread I started here before buying it. Not an unsatisfied owner. I don’t buy the doomsday audiosciencereview write up. Actually had no heard of the website until someone mentioned it RE: the STA200. Have no pride of ownership thing, its just a fun $499 amp. Haven't had a chance to try a class D amp, except in my subs. |
Not surprising for a class D amp. kosst, I think it’s linear, but still just looking under it’s skirt, the Vidar gets my nod by a long way. STA-200 https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/nuforce03-jpg.17070/ Vidar https://www.schiit.com/public/upload/general/vidar-internal-1920.jpg |
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So the STA-200 vs. Schiit Vidar is an interesting comparison. What would be the pros and cons of each be? The Vidar seems like it could have the edge with more power and overhead by being able to deliver twice the power when you go down to 4 ohm. Does the the STA-200 do this? There is no 4 ohm measurement that I saw on the AA website. Anyone out there that have tried both? What did you prefer? |
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bstatmeister OP A fast stable amp (extended FR) , good current ability, decent stiff power supply, that’s under control with low output impedance (good damping factor). EG: an amp that can "double" its wattage for each halving of impedance. Increase it’s wattage by at least 70-80% from the "true, not understated" 8ohm wattage, say EG: 100w to 4ohm, 180w to 2ohm, 324w to 4ohm. And the Vidar’s advertised spec, the Schiit can do 8ohm-100w 4ohm-200w and 2ohm-400w (2ohm only one channel at a time driven.) This means it can do good current. (But I suspect the 8ohm wattage is understated to make the 4 look like it’s doubling) But still these are very good figures for an amp that’s just $699!!!!, with a return if you don’t like it. It’s dc coupled with servo and extends out to 500khz -3db!!!!!!!! Cheers George |
Hi guys, thanks for all the recommendations....Looks I have a lot of research to do! Seems the running favorite right now is to monoblock the NuForce STA 200 Power Amplifier - will definitely take a closer look at that. BTW...I already am bi-wiring per Vandersteen recommendations, So it seems I am doing ok there. (using the bi-wire canare wire from blue-jeans) don't think it's a world beater, but seems to be doing alright. Wouldn't mind upgrading to 10 gauge at some point to see if can improve the bass. A couple questions about amps in general. Is there a specification to look at that could tell you how quick or Dynamic the amp would be to another? What are the main things that would make an amp more musical than another? Is having a toroidal transformer one such thing to look for? Does not having a toroid mean it’s not necessarily as good as one that does? |
Mrdecibel, I bought the SYS a few years ago to have a passive to play with. Have looked into others including the Luminous Axiom. I also have seen the DouK passives and considered trying one as I only would need a single input. At the moment I am not sure what I will do regarding purchase of a different passive. Bstatmeister, don't wish to hijack your thread any further. What are your latest thoughts on amplification? |
the world would be a better place IF more of us audiophile s were at least open to being passive ( pre ) agressive ! the Music Reference units, while not $50 are also affordable and good. Open listening to differences, vs endless argument, will sharpen our appreciation for the music. Finally, I can strongly recommend the Book on Schitt, in particular the chapter written by Mike...ha |
mesch, I am using a Douk Audio little passive in my system above that I have found to be cleaner than the Schiit Sys, ( I finally had one on loan ) although it has only 1 in and 1 out. Less than $50. shipped. Tiny little thing, very well built and uses a top notch Alps 27 attenuator. I have, in my main rig, the Luminous Axiom 11, Walker mod, 3 in, 2 out, with remote ( single ended ), and it was a revelation eliminating my preamps ( I will still not mention the units ), but they were excellent, well reviewed preamps. I am a passive guy, all the way now. I have tried passive with over 20 different ss power amps, and wonderful with all of them. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Mrdecibel, I went back to check the NuForce specs on the STA200, and realized my mistake. Sensitivity is even lower than I reported. I stand corrected. One could drive many phonostages via a passive to this amp. Provided other electrical parameters are met. I may try that out one day. Tisbury Audio in London makes a passive that has dip switches to invoke attenuation at 0, -10 and -20 dB. prior to volume control. Might be just the thing with this amp. |
bstatmeister OP Audio GD is good value, but the Schiit is in the US, good for backup, and they give you a trial period so you can send it back if for some reason you don't like it. Here is a 30 page read on the $700 Schiit Vidar, and many more threads on the net if you search. https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/schiit-vidar-impression-thread-updated-with-... Cheers George |
The Emotiva PA-1 is an interesting Ice monoblock. It has one published review that I have seen. (135/270 watts rms at 8/4 ohms but only at 1 KHz.) Positive review ( https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/power-amplifier/emotiva-pa-1-balanced-class-d-power-amplifier-review/). Balanced circuit, $300 per side. I am hopeful to hear it at AXPONA. If it's decent, it's inexpensive enough to get until the Gallium Nitride FET driver class D amps come down in price. Just a thought. Aloha |
I really liked the NuPrime ST-10. http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/2017-editors-choice-power-amplifiers-1000-3000/ I have a PrimaLuna PL5, but it lacks a bit of power @ 4Ω. The ST-10 has plenty of power, great balance and images very well with Spica TC-50, a coherent speaker like the Vandy's. I soon take possession of a couple of tube monoblocks, so will be selling both the PL5 and ST-10. PM if interested. |
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The Nuforce STA200 is a wonderfully detailed amp for appropriate speakers. I purchased one while my ML 336 was out for cap replacement, and it bettered my expectations in every way. Trounced my VAC EL34 integrated in air/spatial cues and equal in midrange. It is an aggravating study in how not to lay out the connections, and has no remote trigger, but for the money is a great buy. |
I am currently running my pair of STA 200s in vertical passive biamp mode, on a pair of not well known, Signet SL 280 ex floor standers ( a sleeper of a speaker, imo ). They are a two way, and was a competitor with speakers under the $1500. price point when they came out. I do use them with a powered sub, centered between them, in a 10 x 12 room, and the system sounds awesome. I run the amps passively ( no preamp ), and feel they would do very well with the Vandy 2Cs. The biwiring option is the 1st thing to do, as the Vandys / amp will definitely " open up ". Enjoy ! MrD. |
I own the Newforce STA 200 mentioned by smrex13. It provides 80wpc into 8ohms, however no more than that into 4 ohms. It is highly sensitive, reaching full power with 0.65V input and has 51Kohm input impedance, making it a good choice for use with a passive. Last I saw it was being offered at $449 by Audio Advisor. The Schiit Saga would make for a great match with the STA200, having a low gain in passive or tube buffered mode at 1V, 0db according to Schiit. I am considering the purchase of one myself. Your Vandy 2Cs do not represent a difficult load for an amplifier, having a relatively benign impedance and moderate sensitivity such that they could be driven by a single ST200 in stereo mode. However if your power needs are greater (do to room and loudness levels), the vertical biamp approach is within budget. I also like the Odyssey amplifier mentioned by tomic601. I almost purchased one sometime back. Would work with speakers presenting a more difficult load then the STA200. |