I've been seeing alot of glowing reviews of Decware amps over the last couple days. Particularly their Zen Torii and ZMA amps. Andrew Robinson, Steve Gutenburg, Harley Longrove and Jay are all gushing about Decware. For those tube guys out there, is Decware that good? Is the hype warranted?
A little light on the subject. I have been using a Zen Triode SE84C+ since 2008. Using the original SV83 (Russian 6N15N) output tubes and rolling the 5U4 and the 6N1P for flavor changes.
The amp didn't cost me much new in 2008. It has been solid and reliable for the years I have used it.
Is it the holy grail and worth all the press? Well it all depends. The amp has very little horsepower and almost no torque, but what can you expect from 2 wpc. With the right speakers it is a remarkable amp with considerable inner detail, air and what seems to be faithful timbre. I have always had a Music Reference RM-5 in front of it and experimented with several speakers As has been noted, speaker efficiency is the key and Decware has been pretty clear about that in their Owner's Manual and advertising.
Two speakers that did not come to life are Dynaudio Focus 110 (86db) and Ohm Micro Tall (87db). Both these did well on higher output tube and SS amps.
With that in mind I moved on to higher efficiency speakers. I started with home brew OB and TL using Fostex FE-127E and FF-165WK. Both at around 93 db from their spec. sheets. Things started to happen. The more efficient drivers paired well with the amp, but there were still issues. The mids and highs were very nice, lots of detail, great on voices, but little bass dynamics. These speakers were more efficient and delivered a much fuller sound than the less efficient speakers, but if the little amp was ever to deliver, these speakers were not its forever partners. Before throwing in the towel I gave it a couple more shots.
Saba Greencone 19-200-5298 I don't remember their efficiency spec., but they are very efficient. In a TL enclosure driven by the Decware they were amazing. The detail and timbre made the hair on my neck stand up. The Zen Triode and this driver were made for each other. There was still a lack of real bass, but the midrange, the attack and the air was remarkable. I tried other amps to see if the magic was still there. Mac MC-60, W4S ST-500, Elekit TU-8200R and Hafler DH-220. These are clearly not the world's finest amps, but they do a pretty good job. The magic was gone. I came to the conclusion that the Zen Triode was a remarkably enjoyable amp if you have the right speakers. I feel that the amp is more dependent on speaker selection than are other amps. The Sabas sounded wonderful, but for my everyday listening they just were not going to do.. I loved the little amp, but it just didn't have the right speakers. So I unplugged it and nested between 2 MC-60's for comfort and let it rest.
Then I started to see lots of chatter about the Klipsch RP-600M. That was just not a speaker that I could live with. Forte maybe, but a little horn loaded tweeter might burn out my ears. The amp was great, but where were the right speakers. I just don't have the space or cash for the speakers this it needs.
Along come Herb Reichert and Steve Guttenberg, who both make reference to the Zen Triode and the RP-600M matchup. So what the heck if I burn my ears out I can just sell the speakers and amp and give up on the quest. Then RP-600M II appears on the scene with some revision to the older model. So i bought a pair, dusted off the Zen and unplugged the Macs.
Bingo-they like each other. All that I had enjoyed from higher efficiency speakers was still there, but now there was bass and more slam. They are still playing well together.
So What!
Well the Zen Trade is a wonderful amp if you find the right speakers. It is simple, very well built and fairly priced. I have found the right mate for it and enjoy the matching. I don't think that I would wait two years for a new one, since there are lots of very fine amps on the shelf. You will likely pay more, get it sooner and have fewer speaker compatability concerns.
Do I like it? YES Is it a keeper? YES Is it worth the hype? Nothing is.
A little light on the subject. I have been using a Zen Triode SE84C+ since 2008. Using the original SV83 (Russian 6N15N) output tubes and rolling the 5U4 and the 6N1P for flavor changes.
The amp didn't cost me much new in 2008. It has been solid and reliable for the years I have used it.
Is it the holy grail and worth all the press? Well it all depends. The amp has very little horsepower and almost no torque, but what can you expect from 2 wpc. With the right speakers it is a remarkable amp with considerable inner detail, air and what seems to be faithful timbre. I have always had a Music Reference RM-5 in front of it and experimented with several speakers As has been noted, speaker efficiency is the key and Decware has been pretty clear about that in their Owner's Manual and advertising.
Two speakers that did not come to life are Dynaudio Focus 110 (86db) and Ohm Micro Tall (87db). Both these did well on higher output tube and SS amps.
With that in mind I moved on to higher efficiency speakers. I started with home brew OB and TL using Fostex FE-127E and FF-165WK. Both at around 93 db from their spec. sheets. Things started to happen. The more efficient drivers paired well with the amp, but there were still issues. The mids and highs were very nice, lots of detail, great on voices, but little bass dynamics. These speakers were more efficient and delivered a much fuller sound than the less efficient speakers, but if the little amp was ever to deliver, these speakers were not its forever partners. Before throwing in the towel I gave it a couple more shots.
Saba Greencone 19-200-5298 I don't remember their efficiency spec., but they are very efficient. In a TL enclosure driven by the Decware they were amazing. The detail and timbre made the hair on my neck stand up. The Zen Triode and this driver were made for each other. There was still a lack of real bass, but the midrange, the attack and the air was remarkable. I tried other amps to see if the magic was still there. Mac MC-60, W4S ST-500, Elekit TU-8200R and Hafler DH-220. These are clearly not the world's finest amps, but they do a pretty good job. The magic was gone. I came to the conclusion that the Zen Triode was a remarkably enjoyable amp if you have the right speakers. I feel that the amp is more dependent on speaker selection than are other amps. The Sabas sounded wonderful, but for my everyday listening they just were not going to do.. I loved the little amp, but it just didn't have the right speakers. So I unplugged it and nested between 2 MC-60's for comfort and let it rest.
Then I started to see lots of chatter about the Klipsch RP-600M. That was just not a speaker that I could live with. Forte maybe, but a little horn loaded tweeter might burn out my ears. The amp was great, but where were the right speakers. I just don't have the space or cash for the speakers this it needs.
Along come Herb Reichert and Steve Guttenberg, who both make reference to the Zen Triode and the RP-600M matchup. So what the heck if I burn my ears out I can just sell the speakers and amp and give up on the quest. Then RP-600M II appears on the scene with some revision to the older model. So i bought a pair, dusted off the Zen and unplugged the Macs.
Bingo-they like each other. All that I had enjoyed from higher efficiency speakers was still there, but now there was bass and more slam. They are still playing well together.
So What!
Well the Zen Trade is a wonderful amp if you find the right speakers. It is simple, very well built and fairly priced. I have found the right mate for it and enjoy the matching. I don't think that I would wait two years for a new one, since there are lots of very fine amps on the shelf. You will likely pay more, get it sooner and have fewer speaker compatability concerns.
Do I like it? YES Is it a keeper? YES Is it worth the hype? Nothing is.
I have 3 tube components in my system. A Jolida Fusion 6802 integrated, MHDT Orchid DAC and a Decware ZD3 phono stage. I have no other experience with tube gear. I like them all but they are also significantly better than anything else I’ve had.
The Decware phono stage is very well made and made a huge improvement on sound over my previous inexpensive solid state phono stage and it should have. My current vinyl setup is a VPI Scout turntable with an Ortofon 2m LVB Black cartridge. So with my limited experience with tube gear the Decware is very nice. I’m happy with what I have for the money spent. If I upgrade my analog system and go mc cartridge I will look elsewhere for a phono stage. I hope this helps someone who is at my level in the hobby.
I've seen some emphatic owners perhaps overhype them, but I don't believe they are any more hype than any other company. Then again if they purposely leave their lead-times at 2 years to maintain hype, that is a bit different from most manufacturers.
I had an older Taboo and thought it sounded very nice. 4 WPC did very well with 96 dB speakers though it would have needed gain help from a proper pre to get really loud in my main system (with digital volume control). Sounded nice enough that I started going down a SET / low watt tube amp rabbit hole. I would have kept it, but too many amps. I chose it to sell it because I thought it would be the easiest to sell, and it sold in a day. New owner was very happy. I'm not sure about the lucid mode. Didn't experiment with that enough. Some love it. Switch could have been wired to nothing for all I know.
Personally I wouldn't buy anything new unless simply nothing comparable used, but especially not at a 2 year wait. If that doesn't bother you, you could probably sell right away if you don't like it. I guess if I try to combine some of the logic here on judging the best amp by availability, the best one would be one that is not available new or used. I've only heard a Raven in someone else's system paired with some entry-ish level Sonus Faber speakers, and it sounded excellent.
@ghasley - my comment related to the OP's specific situation re the possibility of using an SET in a room that's over 400 ft sq. However, SET amplifiers in general exhibit relatively high levels of harmonic distortion once output rises above a handful of watts.
@yoyoyaya your comment about harmonic distortion may apply to some very low powered SET amps with mis-matched speakers but it certainly doesn't apply to the majority of SET amps. Certainly not the one I listen to daily. It would be the equivalent of describing non-SET vacuum tube amps as "unless all you want to listen to is varying degrees of negative feedback".
@OP. There are other USA made affordable tube amps to consider such as Rogue audio. Despite your loudspeakers' relative efficiency, you might want more than forty watts per channel in your quite large room. SETs definitely need not apply unless all you want to listen to is harmonic distortion.
SET is an acronym for single-ended triode. It is a very simple circuit that permits a single output tube per channel. While simple might suggest low cost, this type of amp requires a special type of transformer that must be large, and therefore, expensive. Most SET amps are very low in power output. While I don’t agree that any one type of amp is superior to another, a lot of listeners think that SETs are the most natural and best sounding of amps if you can deal with the low output.
There are SET amps that employ very high voltage transmitter tubes to achieve higher output, but they tend to be quite expensive, operate at high voltage that might be dangerous, and for my taste, they don’t sound as good as the flea-powered tube types like 45, 2a3, and 300B SETs.
Please elaborate. No clue what SET is. I've been on a 6 mo info gathering quest with respects to integrated tube amps but have not run across that term till this thread.
When I owned Wilson Sasha 2 speaker, I had to send in my then Audio Research Ref75se for repairs. (really? who knew a blown power tube takes out a resistor? Why would anyone use a fuse anyway? Its so much more convenient to send it off for repairs).
In a second system I had an Audio Note OTO Phono SE Signature so I thought, why not, see if any sound comes out. Zero expectations an EL84 10-12wpc tube integrated would do anything but perhaps start smoking LOL. Anyway, it was the absolute best, hands down, that the Sasha's had ever sounded tonally in my room. Its about transformers and implementation.
A couple of things happened following this experiment. I sold my Audio Research Ref stack, sold the Sashas and began sliding down into the Audio Note rabbit hole. My main system is now all Audio note, from the wall all the way to the speakers. The last non-Audio Note speakers I owned (Devore Fidelity O/20, which sounded wonderful driven by the OTO SE Silver Signature as well as a 211 Jinro tubed integrated) were displaced by a pair of Audio Note speakers with Alnico magnets.
Decware gear is unapologetically euphonic and with proper speaker matching can be end game for many. With (no OTL) tube gear, its about the transformers, implementation and parts quality. Full stop.
Sensitivity specifications from manufacturers cannot really tell you about how easy or hard it is to drive a speaker. Most often, supposedly compatible high efficiency speakers fall flat when it comes to real world capability. But, the opposite can be true too. You will find a lot of indignant postings on the web about how Audio Note cheats on their rating of their speakers and that they are really only 92 db/w efficient or even less than that. While this may be true, if you connect their speakers to low-powered amps they will sing beautifully. My local AN dealer shows off the AN-E speaker with 6.5 wpc Audio Note amplifiers.
I had a Decware Torii II on a pair of klipschorns and it was magical. Sold the khorns for a pair of Spatial Audio X3s and the amp fell right on it's face. With a manufacturers claim of 96 db sens., you would think it would have worked. But it didn't. Clipped on any dynamic recordings.
It’s solid gear and reasonable value. Nothing more, it isn’t going to slay any audio giants. Leben, Shindo, Audio Note....throw a dart at their respective catalogs and you will be rewarded. I like Steve and what Decware does...it’s just a well engineered, well built product.
I've owned three Decware amps and still have the 2.3 watt UFO with Omega jr. 8 speakers in a rather small office. For the money and before the insane lead time they were a good place to begin in the low watt set world. As silverfoxvtx stated, the Aric audio stuff is a great option for a bit more $$. I have the Aric 300b and preamp and it's another level altogether.
I was very interested in Decware so I called the company to inquire. I got their voicemail and after a few days, someone called me back. After answering a few questions, they told me the wait list was 2 years - that's just not going to work for me. So I called Raven Audio (my "plan b") and again got the company's voicemail. 45 mins later the CEO of the company called me back. We had a great conversation that ended with him inviting me to audition their gear in person with him (he also asked me to bring any other speakers/amps I was considering so we could A/B test them on the spot). After taking him up on the offer and hearing their gear (and bringing a McIntosh MA252 with me as a reference), I went with Raven and never looked back. My Osprey LE and Corvus Reference Studio Monitors are an endgame combo. You will not be disappointed. At all.
As someone else in this thread has already eluded to, I would go with a Blackhawk or Osprey. The Nighthawk is good, but the Blackhawk and Osprey have Raven's upgraded components.
A year later I was ready to upgrade my phono stage and I was once again tempted to go the Decware route. But again, 2 years is not an option for me, so I went with Quicksilver. It sounds so good. Maybe Decware is truly something special, but I do not regret going with Raven Audio and Quicksilver for my tube amplification needs. There are world-class alternatives out there that don't require you to wait 2 years just to see how it may sound. Just my two cents.
If you’re looking for a high quality, low production, hand made in the USA amp or preamp, consider Conrad Johnson. I’ve never compared the Decware to CJ but people tend to keep their CJ equipment. They also have a “cult like” following for good reason, they just sound right…
If you look at the amps date made the majority of them are older models that have been redesigned. Current models sell at a premium price with several that have been listed over original purchase price due to the wait time. With the significant increase in Decware’s sales since 2021 I would expect more used amps on the market…New and old. Audio addicts can’t help but buy the next better component.
I enjoy my Decware Torii Jr v2 amp very much in my modest system. I feel they are very well priced for what they deliver. Are there better amps absolutely but they will cost you considerably more.
Give it 6 months and they’ll be a ton on the used market. All hype and marketing. I’m sure it sounds good but all these adhd guys in this hobby will soon tire of them.
I have an older Taboo which I love. It's rated at 6wpc and I use it in my home office system paired with my Vienna Acoustics speakers, (90db). I really love it, especially with the Lucid mode engaged. That's how I always run it. The stock tubes that it comes with are good, but I have a number of vintage Telefunken, Valvo, Siemens etc. tubes I have run in it which really brought it to life. My current combo is a vintage Telefunken ECC83 and a set of vintage Valvo EL84's. It sounds fantastic even though it can't get very loud due to only 6wpc, but that's OK with me.
Read the Decware forums. These amps have a cult following for a reason. I've owned a SE84UFO for years it is a very special piece of equipment. I've learned so much from this amp for minimal amounts of money. Tube rolling of NOS tubes for several dollars a tube. The amp provides switches to change the presentation and has been rock solid with a LIFETIME warranty. It is the best 2 watts out there for the money. I finally just purchased a new amp but paid 7 times what I paid for the Decware new, to improve on the sound the Decware provided. The wait for a new one is insane which is the only reason I went for different brand.
"@larryi ...They had the kind of sound I associate with inadequate output transformers.
I am not saying that they are horrible amps; they are decent for the money, but, for my taste, they are not the "giant killers" that many claim them to be. Good tube amps are not cheap because the good parts, particularly transformers, are not cheap".
Worth noting while ensuring the speakers are a good match. For years it took me a while to realize and understand again why my 50-year local retired radio-audio tech kept telling me over and over - to ensure there are "very high quality and rightsized transformers in your next amps".
I probably should not say this being you are thinking about tube amps, it didn’t work out good for me a costly mistake…the right solid state is a much better way to go..but if you have the solid state you love and want to try a tube amp for fun that’s another thing..just don't go down that expensive tube rabbit hole..
I have had my 20 W Decware Torii Jr v2 with copper bypass upgrade for 1 year. It was a 25 month wait but I feel well worth it. It replaced a 20 W Raven Blackhawk which is now in my second system. Both amps sound great with the right tube combination and speaker pairing. My Raven drives Fritz 88db monitors with ease and the Decware Torii Jr. drives 89db Ohm Walsh Tall 2000’s easily as well. The Torii Jr sounded better in all ways than the Raven but not significantly. When I added my tube preamp with gain controls the Torri Jr. came alive. Better dynamics, deep bass and midrange really stood out as better. For me this is an amp that does everything well. I will live with the Torii Jr. for a long time with a smile. Enjoy your journey!
Note: Check out the Decware website and read all the descriptions/test results on the Toriii Jr’s build. I have not owned or heard a true SET amp but Steve Decker states the Torii Jr. has similar qualities in sound quality even though it’s a push/pull.
I’m the proud owner of their Taboo headphone amp with all the upgrades. It’s so totally boring, though because all you hear is exactly what’s on the recording and nothing else. Meh. Boring, just pure, clean music. I don’t need lively.
Thanks all. Great advise. Im trying to stay away from chi fi so got excited when I saw something made in my home state. I may go down and listen with the wife but problem with that is that it's not my gear, not my room that it'll be paired with.
I was out walking a couple months ago, came across a garage sale and found a Decware SE84UFO and paid $200. I have Klipsch Forte IVs and Volti Audio Razz speakers. The amp worked perfectly doing A/B listening with my First Watt Sit-4, 10 watts of class A…there was no comparison…the Decware sounded ok but I definitely loved the Sit-4 more…made a huge profit on the Decware…try to find a used one try it and they are easy to resell….
Depending on room size, preferred listening levels, and how easy it is to drive you 92 db/w speaker, a very low-powered amp may or may not be suitable. To be on the safe side, you might want to look at something on the 20 watts or more range of power. That means a pushpull amps, not a single-ended triode amp. I would look for something running EL84 tubes. There are many fine sounding EL84 amps that are not that expensive. I also like lower powered amps running 6L6 and KT66 tubes.
I used the lower powered amps from them and thought they were average at best, not a lot of $$$ so don’t expect world class sound. I much prefer the traditional SET tubes like 2a3,45 or 300b to theirs.
I guess when I saw the Harley Longrove review of the Torii, it really sparked my interest. I respect his opinions. I don't get the sense that he's trying to sell stuff other than giving an occasional nod to his own speakers. But when he said that he hopes (im paraphrasing) that the amp that he is trying to develope is as good as the Decware it got my attention.
I guess when I saw the Harley Longrove review of the Torii, it really sparked my interest. I respect his opinions. I don't get the sense that he's trying to sell stuff other than giving an occasional nod to his own speakers. But when he said that he hopes (im paraphrasing) that the amp that he is trying to develope is as good as the Decware it got my attention.
I'm a new owner of a Decware SE84UFO2.1(2.3 watts).I bought it for a back up for my other amp for a just in case scenario. In a medium sized room with Zu Omen Defs (103db sensitivity) it will kick out 80db.It's strong point is realistic timbre from the highest percussion,flutes,etc. and vocals, all the way down to the bass instruments.Separation between instruments,vocals, and layers is excellent.Better than my AricAudio Transcend (40+ watts depending on power tubes).I've only got 12 hours on it but so far I really like it.Dynamics so far are not it's major strength but with lighter fair - Dire Straits,Bruce Colburn, John Mayall and so on I find it addicting.
Decware has unique aesthetics. That doesn’t hurt. Disclaimer: Have never heard Decware but the products do appeal to me. Seem to always have a big backlog of orders it seems.
I'd say if you really want to try a Decware amp pick one up used, should be easy to resell. People who ears I trust, like Larry, have said they are not that great but I've never heard a Decware amp.
I've owned both a Torii Mk IV and an SE34i.2+, along with their CSP3 preamp. All fine pieces and sounded great, none "giant killers", whatever that means. The closest to a keeper was the Torii, which I spent a year comparing to the Atma-Sphere M60s. I kept the Atmas.
Decware has been around a long time and Steve is a very competent amp designer and an even better amp marketer. They've always had a very fervent following and then were discovered by the media during Covid. Wait list to get a new one now is over 3 years.
My speakers are 92 db so should be good with alot of tube amps. I spoke with Decware to inquire on trial and return policy and schedule a listen ( I'm only 1.5 hrs from them) I was told the wait is over 2yrs and that they don't have loaners. So basically u custome order your unit, wait over 2 yrs, then if you don't like it you trade it in or return it. Holy crap....But they must be doing something right. That's a hell of a wait list. I scheduled a phone consult. May just grab one just cause they are hard to get. I've been leaning towards a raven integrated though
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