Integrated amp recommendations for harbeth 30.2 XD

Sorry I've been away from this site and my original post.  I thank everyone for their comments and suggestions.  I did try a Pass INT 25 integrated with my Harbeth setup (everything remained the same except for inserting the INT 25.   It did some amazing things in the midrange, where I heard instrumental passages in a symphony come to life and stand out very clearly.   There may have been more space around the instruments.  The soundstage was very wide.   But I felt that the bass wasn't as tight and forceful (as with the Rega) and that they highs weren't as transparent/extended (I don't mean bright).  So I sold it and went back to using the Rega.  In the interim I bought a Audience Forte 3 power cord and it made a substantial improvement to the sound. It's a 10 gauge cable and it seems to deliver the current the Harbeth's demand at times.  It's the best $150 I've spent in audio.  Highly recommended.  I'm still looking to upgrade my amp.  Looking at the Luxman integrateds that have been mentioned in this thread; the Gato 150.  I'm inclined to stay away from Hegel.  BTW I'm using Transparent Plus speaker and interconnects.  Recently upgraded my streamer from Bluesound Node 21 to the new Node.  A significant improvement --- highs are more transparent along with a bigger soundstage.   I would love to hear the D'agostino progression integrated with the 30.2 XDs.  I have a dealer nearby whom I might be able to arrange a borrow (He doesn't carry Harbeth).  It's an expensive amp and I'd really be pushing the budget.  Thanks again to all who replied.  I will post updates as I make progress.

Thanks jjss49 🙊

kw6 -- that recommendation is a very liberal definition of 'integrated amp'!  😁😁

Perfect combo is Conrad Johnson Et3se with Pass xa25! Enjoy 😃

Interesting commentary on the LFD NCSE, I have had a MK1 since it was introduced and have had no interest in changing since, it truly got me off the merry go round.

My NCSE is driving a pair of 40.2's and does an excellent job at it, I'm sure it could drive the 30.2 no problem as well.

rogue audio cronus magnum iii. best sounding amp in its price zone. you get it all, open tramsparency, refinement, power and impact. so good it is a no brainer with these Harbeths. m

My local dealer uses this amp to demo Harbeths and it sounds great. I have the 30.1s and haven't heard any amp sound bad, just some better than others.  The XD isn't as warm of course so it will depend on what sound you want but the Rogue would be one of my top choices if you're ok with tubes. 

@newton 
It’s been two months Newton, what did you get? How does it sound? 

rogue audio cronus magnum iii.  best sounding amp in its price zone.  you get it all, open tramsparency, refinement, power and impact.  so good it is a no brainer with these Harbeths. m

Wonder how the Harbeth’s pair up with the Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista product line?

i suspect pretty well... mf’s are voiced with a somewhat spotlit treble (and neutral textured midrange and solid, tight bass)

the harbeths can use some of that (at least the non xd ones can, before the xd generation turned up the treble some more)

Wonder how the Harbeth’s pair up with the Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista product line?

Yet to meet a speaker that a Moon by Simaudio 240i, 250i or 340i did not like. 
In other words you can not go wrong with these fine Canadian machines.

LFD NCSE Mk 1

BACKSTORY:

I’ve been in and out of the industry since 1976 as a specialist high-end retailer. I was for some years [until I resigned the franchise earlier this year] an official by which I mean full-time] :FD Audio retailer.

SCOPE:

This piece focus on my experiences as both a retailer and home-user of the NCSE I, NCESE II and NCSE III. Future posts, if I can find the time, might include my observations re other LFD Audio electronics.

EXPLANATORY NOTE:

I am going to focus on the ‘upgrade’ path from NCSE 1 > NCSE II … but not NCSE II > NCSE III because I found the differences to be slight and unworthy of the price to change!

SOUCES AND SPEAKERS.

For continuity I always used a Sony CDP XE-530 with LFD Grainless interconnects and LFD Hybrid Ribbon Type R speakers cables. I didn’t use vinyl nor FM.

Speak pairs used included the superb Vandersteen 2Ce Signatures, Burton Somervell floor standers and my JPW Minims … an ebay bargain @ £25

A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD:

During such adventures I ALWAYS use a sound pressure meter [usually around £30] too ensure that everything is heard at the same volume.

MY REFERENCE:

XTZ CD and amps

AN INVALUABLE RETHINK:

At first, I was only interested in finding units which equalled or exceeded the NCSE 1’s performance without focus on cost! Then I thought, well why not look for pre-owned gear which closely but not entirely mimicked its performance at the lowest possible price? And that’s precisely what I did.

NCSE I versus the pre-owned rest part #1

Quad 44 + Quad 405

On the day, at my usual listening volume I could barely tell the difference. A higher volumes, the Quad pair was less shrill. At lower volumes, bass was lumpy, lacking definition and agility. However …

The NCSE 1 was sold for £1,150 and the Quad cost me £330 and therefore on the basis of overall satisfaction – in this specific context – the Quad combo was the winner.

That said, I knew instinctively that a more satisfactory outcome could be achieved for not much mire money, if I was patient.

CONCLUSIONS:

The NCSE 1 is a superb amp within its limitations

It has battleship build quality and very rare on the auction sites.

To date, 100% reliability other than the occasional volume control replacement under warranty.

You can get very close to the sound for far less money than the typical asking price!

AKG_CA, thanks for the update. Surely useful to know! I'm glad the cable experiments have managed to elevate the Harbeth 30.2 XD to a higher level of performance.

Thanks!

The 2nd in line model CARDAS CLEAR interconnect in the “Clear” line …the one immediately below the very top model CARDAS CLEAR BEYOND .

http://www.cardas.com/clear_ic.php

@akg_ca 

Which Cardas Clear cable are you using? There are several variations.

Thanks.

“ …… I just bought the comparatively modest strata CHORD RUMOUR speaker cables to purposely test drive Mr. Shaw’s theories / assumption in the coming weeks in a direct A-B shootout against my incumbent FREYs. (There is a BIG difference in price point deltas…) …”

“ ….. Please share your impressions on the Nordost Frey vs Chord Rumour speaker cable on this thread. Personally I don’t think the Rumour will sound better than the Frey. I used to have Chord Epic on the Harbeth SHL5+ . The Epic is a higher range cable than the Rumour and it does sound quite respectable with the Harbeth. I now use Chord Signature XL and it made the Epic sound colored and slightly congested. The higher range Signature XL’s clarity is quite a step up from the Epic. For this reason I don’t think the Rumour will surpass the performance of the Nordost Frey in your system. In short, cables do matter with the Harbeth or any other speaker in my experience. …”

HANDS-ON UPDATE:

Yup….cables matter …full stop,…no big surprise here . The litmus test is in.
My take: I don’t get Alan Shaw’s stated agnosticism that cables don’t matter.

(1) Comparatively, the CHORD RUMOURs are a big step down from my NORDOST FREYs comparatively in an A-B direct bake-off. The CHORDs sounded congested, thickly veiled, and solely lacking the same resolution and finesse that the HARBETHs are capable of performance-wise on all levels.

(2) I put the FREY speaker cables back in and I borrowed CARDAS CLEAR XLR ICs for an in-house audition and direct A-B bake-off against my NORDOST FREY XLR’s.
Wow …. An expensive $$ upgrade pathway for me now, because these CARDAS CLEARs are now a keeper for me.

In brief, they simply performed “better” at about a 10% - 20% add resolution. / added finesse / added open airiness audio improvement level, with further notable eliminations of any occasional harsh “edge”, depending on the quality of the recordings.

The FREYs are very good contenders and no pretenders by any measure , but the CARDAS CLEARs are the clear winner (no pun intended). Simply put, they open up the HARBETH’s to a higher audio performance and resulting music appreciation level across the whole spectrum. ‘Nuff said.

No way the CARDAS CLEAR ICs are coming out. They excel with my HARBETH 30.2 XD’s. Full stop.

The complimentary assault on my wallet is that CARDAS CLEAR matched speaker cables are now next as leading candidates for a further upgrade path on the Yellow Brick Road to audio OZ.

FWIW

I presume the H390 is considered a high-current unit, but do we have a measurement of how many amps it puts out?

uncle paul helps with some important definitions and explanation of 'current vs watts'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfNoGVahHKg

Oh for sure. I’m just really curious how an amp with a really stout power supply which is necessary for a large class A envelope (but low-ish relative watts) drives these speakers so well. I don’t listen loud enough to get even close to the limits of the amp.

@voodoochillin -- keep in mind that both Luxman and Pass are known to understate their specs. The Luxman 590 AXII has been measured to be around 90 watts @ 8 ohms, which is significantly higher than the stated 30 watts. Also, Harbeths like current ... probably more so than watts.

To correct myself long after the fact Rega Osiris not Isis their CD player. ;)

@pingpong I would imagine the Bryston sounds great.  I had a Bryston B100 with the C7es3s, and it was the best amp tried with them.

surprised no one has mentioned Vinnie Rossi L2i SE...I had the Hegel H590 and 40.2 anniversaries in a fairly small room and when I switched to the Rossi I never looked back...pretty amazing combination, IMO. If anything, given the 100W, its a touch light for the 40.2s, but would be ideal for the smaller Harbeths....one issue though---when using the internal DAC on the H590 it sounded better than going with an external DAC, and so the total investment was higher not to mention the pricier Rossi integrated by itself....

I have Classe' CAM 200's driving my Harbeth 40.1's....very transparent

A dealer I trust recently told me he would be happy for a very long time with the 30.2’s paired with a Rogue Cronus Magnum III.  

I currently have Harbeth 30.2 Anniversary Edition speakers and am using a Bryston B135 cubed integrated amplifier!  It's a perfect match and sounds awesome!  I highly recommend it!  

What is it about the "low powered" SS class A amps that get such great results with Harbeths? I've read very positive feedback about Sugden and Luxman, and with my own experience, the Pass Int-25 delivers amazing realism through Shl5+'s. It would seem then that the blanket statement of Harbeths requiring more power to sound good is misleading. Don't want to start a war here, just my observation.

+1 @deadhead1000 --

I have Harbeth 30.1 in the home office and use it with the Raven Audio Blackhawk tube amp. I was generally satisfied with this combo. I also happen to have a Luxman 590 AXII driving SHL5+ in the main system. A few weeks ago I hauled the 30.1s to the media room and hooked them up to the Luxman. Needless to say, it smoked the Blackhawk in every aspect and then some more :)

I own the Harbeth 30.2 and matched it with the Luxman 590AXII, it's wonderful. Very open and revealing, as has been mentioned already. I will say (in my opinion) they did not sound good with my older McIntosh equipment, and although I like tubes, I felt the high-end  SS amps sounded better with the Harbeth's. I went with the Luxman as it has tone and loudness controls for which I like the flexibility when listening at low levels. If you don't want that feature, several folks recommended Hegel, and other high-end brands which I have heard and are great also a great match.

The luxman or the large accuphase would be good choices for that speaker they will add a new dimension to the sound over the rega.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxdsq451hP0

Gato vs Hegel.  I presume they're played in the order listed in the title.

Sorry! No, I have used both through my relatively new Denafrips Pontus II DAC. So in that sense, the comparison is fair, as I was bypassing the Hegel DAC.

This is my first stand-alone DAC, and it has spurred the temptation to upgrade other components, at least to some extent. I am not a serial flipper, though, and when I am happy with a system, I usually stick with it for years.

whip -- be sure to clarify if you used the h160 through its onboard dac, or if you listened to the amp section only with other source feeding the 160 through analog inputs - important distinction

h160 dac based on an older gen akm chip now 5-6 years old, can sound a little dull and obscure some subtle details compared to the better dacs out there today (and the refreshed hegel dac sections)

gato is straight integrated, no onboard dac, yes?

cheers

the hegel h160 while a ’last gen’ piece at this point, would, imo, set a very high bar to beat in driving harbeths (it is last gen primarily in the dac section only, the amp section is still absolutely top notch)

Thanks for that, and I do agree that the h160 is excellent. I could have easily lived with it and been happy, but had an itch to try out the GATO.

It’s still very early, but I am tempted to say that the GATO is fleshing out some subtle details that I wasn’t hearing with the Hegel. It could well be bias at play, as I am not set up to A/B the two amps under controlled conditions, but I do seem to be hearing some differences.

I was listening last night to an excellent (live) Mary Stallings CD that I know well, and, among other things, Ron Blake’s tenor saxophone playing sounded more vivid in that I was picking up details from around his mouth.

I also want to say that I am picking up on what might be thought of as a more ’organic’ timbre from acoustic instruments, and that GATO has a better 'grip' on the bass.

I need more time, though, to arrive at any kind of confident conclusions.

the hegel h160 while a ’last gen’ piece at this point, would, imo, set a very high bar to beat in driving harbeths (it is last gen primarily in the dac section only, the amp section is still absolutely top notch) - this is why i am so curious to hear @whipsaw’s findings with his new gato... it would be really something of note if the gato can outperform the h160

another amp i have found to work very very well with the harbeths are the devialets (they also have a useful ’sam’ feature that enhances the bass response of the speaker while also protecting the bass driver) - truly excellent sound

finally, harbeths are a speaker that readily exposes the sq difference between really fine amps like hegel or ayre or pass vs something like a nad... this comment is borne from personal experience, not reviews, nor conjecture

I do not have experience with the Krell K-S300i although I briefly tried the KAV-300i in my system many years ago. I presume the signature punch and dynamic presentation of the Krell would be quite ideal for the Harbeth.

As shown in this thread, the current capability and drive of the amp is one of the single most important parameters to ensure the Harbeth will sound good, if not great.

AKG_CA, I broadly agree with your sentiments.

I just bought the comparatively modest strata CHORD RUMOUR speaker cables to purposely test drive Mr. Shaw’s theories / assumption in the coming weeks in a direct A-B shootout against my incumbent FREYs. (There is a BIG difference in price point deltas…)

Interested parties can PM me on the results.

Alan Shaw used to express opinionated views on amplifiers, cables and stands for his speakers. I wouldn’t want to bring it out here again but let’s just say I don’t agree with his opinions as well. Before he advocated powerful Hegel amps for Harbeth speakers, he used to say amplifiers don’t matter as any modest-powered amp would work on his speaker. This includes the Rega Brio, Elicit and Nait 5i to name a few. Of course it would work. The real question is whether music will sound good with those low powered amps..

In my experience, no.

The Rega Osiris must be something special to sound better than the LFD with the Harbeth. Is the LFD a Zero or NCSE? The Osiris has received very positive reviews by the Brits, both reviewers and users alike.

Please share your impressions on the Nordost Frey vs Chord Rumour speaker cable on this thread. Personally I don’t think the Rumour will sound better than the Frey. I used to have Chord Epic on the Harbeth SHL5+ . The Epic is a higher range cable than the Rumour and it does sound quite respectable with the Harbeth. I now use Chord Signature XL and it made the Epic sound colored and slightly congested. The higher range Signature XL’s clarity is quite a step up from the Epic. For this reason I don’t think the Rumour will surpass the performance of the Nordost Frey in your system. In short, cables do matter with the Harbeth or any other speaker in my experience.

I think I posted that my KRELL k-300i would be great with a Harbeth, but I deleted that post since I was set to sell the unit. However, today those plans have changed and the KRELL is needed.

I have heard the Harbeth with Luxman c900u and m900u combo and it was great. The Harbeth are usually not the type of speaker I gravitate towards. However, with the Luxman pairing It was great, but also very expensive

My KRELL k-300i integrated sounds a lot like that Luxman sound that I heard. Very smooth, detailed, and powerful. The internal DAC is OK and is what I will use in the future for convenience. I also hooked up a Gustard X26 Pro DAC and an AudioMirror Tubadour III SE with Fibre Optical streaming into USB and it was better than the internal DAC streamed to the NETWORK (RJ45) input.

I highly recommend this unit and I think it is the best integrated in the $12K and under price range that I have heard. The CODA CSiB is also another great integrated but I think the KRELL is a bit smoother (maybe a good thing), with stronger bass, and technically very advanced (with DAC option).

I must agree with Alan Shaw and those here who have recommended the Hegel H390, or H590 (which I have) and other Hegels.

I found these the only amplifiers to allow the Harbeth M30.1 and M40.2 to achieve their optimum sound. They absolutely require a powerful SS amp to do so... but... especially Hegel amps.

They clear up the bass and mids, and add the dynamics that others can’t achieve. I would not have kept either of these fine Harbeths, had I not heard them with the Hegel amps. IMO they allow the Harbeths to compete with about any speaker available!

Though, I could also consider the McIntosh MA252 and MA352 tube / SS hybrids as a close equivalent - they may even add some pristine highs that are unrivaled.

Check out these videos - you’ll be AMAZED:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=harbeth+30.1+with+hegel+

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=harbeth+30.1+and+mcintosh+ma252

Though - I’m sure the rooms and room treatments may add a lot!

Not 30.2, yet I heard the 40.1s with two different Cary and CJ tube amps, in the 50w triode and 100w ultralinear range, larger transformers.  

Sounded really nice in the low to mid-volume range, not lacking anything really except maybe super fast snap to the bass if you are into that.  Very musical for sure, enough so we stopped listening to the differences with the gear itself, and much more engaged in the music.  

My local Harbeth dealer only sells tube amplifiers.  I have heard the 30.2s with a number of low output tube amps and it sounds quite good with the to which it was paired--Synthesis Roma 96 (pushpull EL34, Synthesis A40 (pushpull KT66), and Audionote Cobra (pushpull EL34). 

This dealer has one solid state amp in the store, a Parasound amp that is used for demonstrating the difference between tube and solid state sound.  

If I were in the market for this speaker, I would not overlook tube amplification.  The need for high-powered amps for Harbeth speakers is overstated.

@jjss49 

I will. It replaced a Hegel h160, which, while not of the current generation of Hegel amps, was really quite good. Darko was using a newer, more powerful Hegel.

Having only had the GATO for ~24 hours, I can safely say that to my ear it is better, at least in terms of sound reproduction. The Hegel was, in some respects, more convenient, and I have some minor quibbles with the GATO remote, and display.

Of course the sound is paramount, and I am cycling through some of my more familiar CDs in an attempt to refine my thoughts, before I articulate them online.

@whipsaw

let us know how good it sounds and how it compares with others you have had!

saw darko’s review on the piece... he loves stuff that has cool design, looks so unique and elegant -- that is certainly a beautifully made amp

Very early days, but I am getting excellent results with the combination of my 30.1 and newly acquired GATO AMP-150.

RYDER has a good point in general vis-a-vis matching higher strata build upstream components to very revealing HARBETH speakers (… and this is not just limited to REGA’s lower tier offerings ,,,): You always only get what you pay for….

Maximizing your HARBETHs performance is an alchemy of 3 things: - a direct function of the components system build price point in the 1st part,
- Price alone is no assurance of a pathway down the Yellow Brick Road to Audio OZ . One size does not fit all …. It will need experimentation to maximize system synergy overall
- And finally, an awareness and ethereal management of acoustic warts introduced in your bespoke listening arena. Th identical system in two different arenas can sound very different in terms of listener satisfaction.

THE GOOD NEWS AND NOT SO GOOD NEWS IMO:

Your HARBETHs are the most agnostic speakers I’ve auditioned in suitable matching with the many high-build amplifier brands. E.g. LFD was my 2nd choice behind my REGA OSIRIS with great results

Conversely they are most revealing speaker to an extreme of graphically exposing all compromises and limitations from your source. That includes the complimentary issue about performance and quality of your ICs.

THE OPEN END CONFLICTING ISSUE OF “BEST” SPEAKER CABLES:

Mr Shaw preaches his mantra that HARBETH are completely agnostic about “good” speaker cables, and that low-budget cheap 79-strand QEDs are examples of suitable partners. Both my HARBETH dealer and I are not in his cohort army.. I currently run a full all-NORDOST FREY high-end loom array with great performance.

LITMUS TEST BAKE-OFF COMING: I just bought the comparatively modest strata CHORD RUMOUR speaker cables to purposely test drive Mr. Shaw’s theories / assumption in the coming weeks in a direct A-B shootout against my incumbent FREYs. (There is a BIG difference in price point deltas…)

Interested parties can PM me on the results.

FWIW

If you are now questioning your overall audio performance with these killer speakers, my guess is that the problem would likely be the compromises and warts with your source and/or the room acoustics ..... And not your REGA amp.

Not all Rega amps are built to sound the same. I owned the Rega Elicit mk2 and the Harbeth SHL5 sounded lacklustre when matched with it.

I would imagine the Osiris to be the best sounding Rega amp, followed closely by the Aethos. The lower range Rega integrateds are suboptimal if your system is above average, particularly if you own some Harbeth speakers.

@decooney

lol - couple years ago when i bought back a set of compact 7’s for fun (after enjoying super 5’s and mon 40s a decade earlier), i found that harbeth user’s group... first i thought it was hella cool -- the owner main designer boss man goes on the board frequently chats with customers answers questions shares thoughts etc etc

then after a couple weeks i realized that place is run like an oppressive regime... our little hifi world version of ’i can’t breathe’ ... but as all these things go in online and tv media these days, people only gather in their own echo chambers, each agreeing and amplifying long held beliefs, pretty much sheep fanboys and associated dealers participate, very few open minds, limited intellectual honesty - ’tis a comment on our general society as much as harbeth or audio in these times

my view is it is a decent place to gather info on the speakers, esp for those new to harbeth, but it’s not one for any real discussion -- takes nothing away from the excellence of the speakers though...

@jjss49 
"on his user forum, any attempt at discussing better or worse amplification for his speakers are shut down by him with an iron fist, as he personally moderates the discussion forum -- with the rationale that the user forum is about users discussing how great his speakers are, but one had better not try to distinguish a better or worse amp to use in driving them - he doesn't want amplifier brands discussed". 

Wow, that seems like a self-inflicted invitation for the moderator to get all spun up. Wish them the best of luck with that! 

I have the HARBETH 30.2 XD’s driven by a REGA OSIRIS integrated amp and paired with its stablemate REGA ISIS VALVE cdp/DAC. (And a MAGNUM DYNALAB FT101a ETUDE fm tuner)
It is stellar and a keeper .... full stop.

If you are now questioning your overall audio performance with these killer speakers, my guess is that the problem would likely be the compromises and warts with your source and/or the room acoustics ..... And not your REGA amp. These speakers will graphically reveal all the pros and cons upstream.

Your speakers will perform a lot better if placed on quality build open form stands (look at TonTraegers ...I have custom build bespoke clones done by a pro woodworker) and also properly positioned from the back wall and side walls ( min .75 m and 1 m respectively)

https://www.tontraeger-audio.com/lang/en/reference-stands.html
https://vinylsound.ca/products/tontraeger-m30-1-reference-stands-for-harbeth-monitor-30-1