@bipod72 Thank You for the instruction, I will be making a provision for something that is working towards this type of set up.
This is an interesting area of conversation, as usually the Source Material for replaying recorded music comes of what can be described as an obsolete Hard Medium.
The Source Material that has Superseded the use of Hard Medium, is transferred as data (data packets) through the Internet.
The Internet is substantial in how it is used, and functions superbly for most needs,, but when it comes to supplying data that can be interpreted as a Quality suitable for Audio purposes, especially in the sub sector of Audiophile Quality. There is seemingly a lot to consider to ensure the data packets are able to be received as uncompromised as possible to achieve.
After reading a few methods for what can be done within the home, is there any things to be considered to ensure the data getting to the home arrives as a optimised date packet?
As I initially intend on producing FLAC Files to be used as the source material, I believe the upstream of FLAC Storage is addressed in the suggestions offered so far.
Streaming Source Material is not of the menu, it will be something that is evolved onto.
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Hello @jmfinney ,
Regarding your Verizon Fios G-3100 router, I had difficulty matching the barrel size of the DC cable from LPS that I tried to power the router with. Seemed like DC plug was closest to 2.8mm but not exactly. Do you know what size barrel the plug is? I may try the LPS again.
I too tried unsuccessfully to find the correct DC barrel plug for my LPS. So I told Verizon that my AC adapter was defective and got them to send me another one. I had Joe Kubala cut this one off and make me a new DC cable. Not ideal but better than the wall wart!
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@jond
Congratulations, great improvement.
After switching to their router/modem (from a top of the line Netgear Nighthawk) last month we final got the 1,200mb we have been paying for for years. Last night the movie kept stoping as the speed was at 12mb and dropped to three or less repeatedly.
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Another vote for the Netgear Nighthawk router. When I moved back to the big city, the wife ordered Spectrum. As soon as it was installed, I unhooked their wireless router and put in the Nighthawk. The wife can watch all the TV she wants and I can stream all the Hi-Rez tunes I want.
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Something I should add to my story for folks who don't think that everything can matter. As far as I know my wifi was just fine but we got a notice from Xfinity that they wanted to come out and address some issue that could lead to a future outage. Never heard that before but said ok and made the appt. The guy comes out and all he did was change out the coaxial cable from the splitter that divides modem and cable box. I was previously getting speeds in the 60-80 mb range after the change of cable always over 200 just now measured 261 mbps a radical and unexpected improvement!
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Based on my experience what worked for me has been:
1. Put audiophile grade network switch in front of your streamer - I use LHY8
2. Put the best network cable between the audiophile switch and streamer - I use Revelation Audio Labs cable. totally awesome cable, imo
3. Use very good power cords for both the streamer / switch and feed good electricity
4. use non-audiophile grade switches to avoid using a long ethernet cables. by doing this, it lowers noise I found.
5. If you had something like Synergistic Research Pod, put it on top of non-audiophile switch. It smooths the sound. I use one and it has made definitive improvement
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Hello Fastfreight,
Regarding your Verizon Fios G-3100 router, I had difficulty matching the barrel size of the DC cable from LPS that I tried to power the router with. Seemed like DC plug was closest to 2.8mm but not exactly. Do you know what size barrel the plug is? I may try the LPS again.
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Time Warner was nearly the death of me and then we moved and Comcast was worse.
A somewhat germain remark to add here...I heard a while back ago that Time Warner, Comcast, Verizon, etc. had a lower approval rating than congress. That still true?
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@pindac Correct. So from your central model to your primary router you would have the single run. Then split off from there to another router. Each router either dedicated to wi-fi & data and the other to streaming/hi-fi duties. The other thing is that my wife works from home and having a separate wi-fi network for the data usage means less lag when I want to stream music since it's on its own network.
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New Investigation for myself.
Fibre Optic vs CAT for Audio
Being a Student is a place I like to be 👨🎓.
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Depending on how long that audio run is you may want to consider using fiber optic. I had a 50 foot run of cat-6 and replaced it with a fibre optic link and it was a definite improvement. Transceivers and cable where under $150 on Amazon.
Side benefit of electrical isolation also.
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@bipod72 Am i correct if I read your post, with the interpretation, with the idea that I would be best to have two runs of CAT 6 or above Cable. With one of these being dedicated to the Transfer of Data for the Audio Only.
The main listening area for the long term owned audio system to be set up, is most likely to be an external of the home dedicated space, hence a digital only audio set in the remodelled home.
Would it make sense to run a separate feed again to the external of the home space, or extend an allocated cable run to be used solely for audio?
I am acquiring all Cable Types for the project as an advance purchase, hence learning of the lengths I will need.
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If you have access to fiber optic or DSL you could make the switch and stick with the router the provider supplies. I have a secondary mesh network router system that piggybacks via ethernet cable from the main fiber optic router. The only thing on my mesh network is my hi-fi system. All other devices run off the main router.
No major issues but no noticeable improvements. I just have the hi-fi system on its own network separate from everyone's electronic devices.
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I was to follow up on the Cable Type, Run Requirement, with a question about Containment.
I witness miles of Data Cable being Installed it is usually laid in a dust controlled environment and is usually concealed under a Metal Clad Floor Tile with Screening Properties?
I was to inquire if a metal conduit would have any benefits for routing the Data Cable?
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@mitch2
Glad to hear it. See how long you have that speed.
Xfinity would not touch my Modem / Router.
Also check your billing for extra charges. They charged me $100 to put in their router and a couple mystery charges. No cost other than the monthly charge told to me by the technician.
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@pindac
When doing a major renovation a few years ago I put in flexible plastic conduit with pull strings inside to help future proof the installation.
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@ghdprentice - Xfinity just left after helping integrate my new Arris SURFboard T25 DOCSIS 3.1 Cable Modem, which doubled my internet speed over what I was getting with the previous modem. Speed Test showed well over 500 Mbps now, which is certainly all I need for my home usage and which was well worth the $112 cost.
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As strange as it might sound, this is a real Newbie on such an area of Data Transfer.
How many Cat 6 or above Cable Runs is sensible planning?
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@mitch2 “…that will hopefully provide the speed I am paying for. ”
Good luck with that. Bird dogging Verizon to get what you pay for is a full time job. When you don’t get it with a third party modem / router they will claim it is your router.
Don’t get me going.
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@pindac Cat 6 or better, shielded is plenty good enough for all streaming. 1GigE has more than enough bandwidth for even video.
If shielded, you may want to ensure your wifi router has grounded plugs.
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I feel lucky to have found this thread.
Starting at the Basics, I am at present purchasing electrical cable for my home which is to undergo a substantial renovation.
My electrician friend assisting with the new electrics is aware a separate earthed spur is wanted for the Audio Set Up.
The way things are unfolding, the Audio may be reduced to a Streaming Only arrangement, FLAC files and possibly a Hired Music Service as well.
What is the best options for me in relation to having Cable concealed in the walls?
How many wire runs is required?
Any info to help plan will be great.
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After reading this thread, I checked my actual internet speed compared to what I am paying for and found it to be only about half what it was supposed to be. The Comcast/Xfinity website was helpful by showing that my modem is outdated, the non-Xfinity modem options that are considered current, and a link to the speed test. I then purchased a new DOCSIS 3.1 Gigabit cable modem from the list that will hopefully provide the speed I am paying for.
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1. Go with direct 1G Ethernet copper cabling wherever possible. It is infinitely more reliable, economical and has much higher bandwidth.
2. Do not “power line Ethernet” products. They do not work.
3. Buy off-lease enterprise grade Cisco switches, firewall and mesh wireless access points instead of TP-Link/assus/Trendnet or any other consumer brand. It will work better for much longer.
4. Use major name jacks and patch cables from Leviton or Belden or Hubbel and use brand-name Cat5E or Cat6 cable instead of cheap no-name low quality cable.
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I have a Netgear C7000v2 used with Spectrum as the internet carrier. I've had no issues with it and it covers my modest 1000 sq-ft cottage with WiFi quite well. What I did notice though is that until I added an Uptone-Audio EtherREGEN device which regenerates the Ethernet signal to my music-server, I was unable to get streaming music to sound as good as that from the same music loaded into my music-server. So, cleaning up the Ethernet signal is an important part of better listening in my opinion.
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@lalitk
"I have taken a single feed from my Comcast modem to my switch which then feeds my three connected devices (DAC, Streamer and Content Server)."
That is exactly what works for me. The server is connected to the switch as are two separate Roon endpoints and it all works flawlessly.
"The 22AWG version is pretty stiff so no sharp bends. The 26AWG version is more flexible."
I too took your advice about the LinkUp Cat 8 cable and use the stiffer 22AWG for runs of 1M or over (the shortest length they sell is 1M), while using very short runs of the more flexible 26AWG to connect switches to peripherals like FMCs. Regardless of which of the two gauges, those seem to be very well-made CAT cables and particularly the connectors, which appear to be very similar to the well-regarded Telegartner connectors.
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Sure. The fundamental improvement it offers when compared to the other routers I auditioned is a very significant reduction in the noise floor. I hear all of the musical benefits one would expect from a darker background: deeper and more realistic bass, more natural expression of note overtones and decay, better presentation of spatial cues and more “natural” location of instruments in the soundscape, and I hear more deeply into music to discover things I’d not heard before.
For reference, my digital path:
router - generic cat-8 - etherregen - DHLabs eth cable - Aurender N200 - Von Gaylord Legend SPDIF & DHlabs USB - Devialet Expert Pro - Reference 3A MM de Capo BE
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@carlsbad2
Jerry…I am using 50FT LinkUp Cat 8 - 22AWG LAN cable from Amazon. The 22AWG version is pretty stiff so no sharp bends. The 26AWG version is more flexible.
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@lalitk Yep, that is what I had to do. I've done that every since I had roon but I thought that with a modem with 2 ports I might be able to eliminate one cable and one connection....but I think the modem has 2 parallel 1 Gig systems as opposed to 2 ports into the same system. I've never gotten around to buy a nice cable to go from the modem to the router so I'll order one today.
thanks,
Jerry
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@fastfreight Yes, so long as there is not a metalic Ethernet cable that is going from inside to outside. Then the only thing you have to worry about is long Ethernet runs. Some are lucky enough to not need Ethernet, and can run their home 100% on Wifi. Those folks don't have the same concerns.
Please remember that for power protection the NEC and whole house surge protectors still recommend surge strips at the point of use in addition to anything in your panel. If you live in a relatively safe area you may not care but here in the south where we are prone to lightning strikes I recommend extra precautions.
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Xfinity has a list of compatible modems on their website somewhere.
Xfinity pricing is bizarre. All I wanna do is exclude all the premium channels that are bundled including a Netflix subscription I don't use I make an effort to do this they say they're gonna charge me overall $50 more per month. A substantial increase just to reduce the level of services.
The equipment charges along with those broadcast fees are getting quite crazy.
Price and I do have a separate modem and router that I don't have to rent but they do have compatibility issues so you need to check very carefully.
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@hce1
"But, the TP link gaming router delivered significantly better audio and video services than any of the other three."
I am curious, would you describe specifically how the TP link gaming router made your audio system sound better (i.e., which sonic attributes of your system improved and in what way)?
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I recently had my ISP install the most recent router they have available for their customers: Calix. I was surprised to see and hear significant improvements in the video and audio performance on my television and the audio delivered from my Aurender streamer. I had no expectation that the router would affect system performance at all, let alone so significantly.
For reasons not worth going into here, the Calix does not work for me in my current home. So, having observed that their router made an obvious and easily detectable difference in the delivery of audio and video information, I decided to buy three different routers to determine which offered the best performance for me in my home and with my system: Eero 6 mesh, tp-link axe5400 mesh, and tp-link axe7800 gaming router. All three resolved the technical problem I had with the Calix, but their handling of audio and video differed significantly. Without belaboring the point with too much detail, the two mesh systems’ performance were approximately equal to that of the Calix. But, the TP link gaming router delivered significantly better audio and video services than any of the other three. At the $159 Black Friday price, it was one of the cheapest, yet effective tweaks I’ve made to my system in years. I highly recommend it.
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hello @erik_squires,
makes sense now that I see you run ethernet out of your wifi router / switch.
as I have Verizon fios fiber running into my garage, may I assume that it is relatively free of lightening surge risk? I also have whole house surge protection on my main meter.
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Honestly haven't paid for cable TV in at least 10 years. Everything I want to watch is on a streaming service. I had Sling for a while, but forcing me to buy news channels as a bundle instead of picking one or the other was a deal breaker.
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@goodlistening64
I can't get Verizon here, other than 5G wireless service that is, otherwise I would give them a try.
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@carlsbad2
I can see why you couldn’t see Roon Core connected directly to the modem. I bet, if you connect Roon Core to the wireless router / network, you will have no trouble seeing all the devices in your ecosystem operating flawlessly. I have taken a single feed from my Comcast modem to my switch which then feeds my three connected devices (DAC, Streamer and Content Server).
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@vandy357
I was on two year contracts for the past 10 years, bee bopping between one or the other because of price. Capitalism was working.
Then about two years ago Comcast and Verizon started colluding with one another and the prices were identical. Could not get internet only for anything less than $125, which was packaged with TV stations.
The gig was up when Verizon offered $50 internet per month for 300mbps, so I cut the cord and have not looked back. Speeds are as advertised.
I would bet that one of your two providers will offer something similar soon which should change the game for you.
Good luck!
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Update: I got the Netgear Nighthawk and installed it. That seemed to greatly reduce the problems I’ve had. Still sometimes when I wake up in the morning my sleeping computer takes a while to reconnect to the internet. I don’t ever recall this before.
@lalitk I was unable to hook the wire to the stereo system directly to the router because the roon core has to be on the same ’network" as the phones, computers, tablets, etc that you use to control roon. I was unable to see the roon core with it plugged directly into the router and the control devices hooked to the wireless network. I can’t figure out why. My router control solftware sees all the things attached wired and wirelessly.
I will also think about your concern about hooking the stereo system up directly to the modem. No computers or other devices worth hacking bypass the modem.
I am using an eero mesh wifi because it was highly recommended to me when I was having problems. I have a TP Link almost new that I will reinatall, perhaps this afternoon.
The speed of the Netgear modem isn’t much faster if at all. speedtest comes back 360 Mbs. the old modem was 350 or so, maybe it would be 360 too today. But what I will call latency is improved. when I run speedtest it starts immediately, with no delay. same with many other websites loading.
I’ve changed some tubes lately but I will say that right now the sound system has never sounded better.
the Netgear modem was not expensive and it is nice to have a better piece of equipment in my audio system and supporting my home network for routine things like reading this site.
Jerry
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@goodlistening64
Unfortunately Comcast or CenturyLink are my only 2 options for internet service right now. Comcast is is way better, I signed up with CenturyLink when they had a deal going on with a 2 year contract, as soon as that was over I went back to Comcast as fast as I could. Now that I am using the Comcast/Xfinity rental modem my internet is way better with very few connection issues. Having to use their equipment is just another way for them to make more money off you, IMHO. I am waiting for Cspire to install a fiber optic network in my neighborhood but it doesn't look like that is going to happen any time soon, so I will just have to deal with Comcast, it's that or move and believe me I have been thinking about that lately also.
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@vandy357
I had a similar experience with Comast/Xfinity. Used my own Arris Surfboard with their service and never got the speeds they promised - that I was paying for.
When I upgraded to a better Arris Surfboard (3.1 DOCSIS) the problems remained.
Switched to Verizon and have been getting speeds promised ever since. Verizon Ethernet Gateway solved all issues I had.
No one should ever trust Comcast, and although I have had good service, Verizon is also highly suspect. For my location, those are the only two options. Using your own equipment with those two providers is a way for those providers to dismiss your complaints.
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Just a balancing voice that most network professionals and engineers will tell you, as per the design of IP networks, there is no SQ benefit to "audiophile grade" network gear.
I've been through the debate and don't need to do it again so I won't debate anyone in this thread...I would just encourage anyone looking to learn from these threads to understand that network and computer professionals are vastly on the side that these audiophile products do not benefit SQ.
There may be other reasons to upgrade components including avoiding dropouts. There are different levels of quality in network gear for sure. But most network and engineering professionals will tell you that sound quality isn't a benefit of upgrades.
As above, this is just a cameo appearance to balance the discussion, no need to dive into the debate rabbit hole with me in this thread. Done enough of that in other threads and on other forums this week.
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Clarification: A long Ethernet run is 30' or more.
The latest research indicates that INSIDE a home, you want to add isolation, not surge paths, so use an Ethernet isolator instead of an Ethernet surge protector. The latter creates paths to ground which ultimately prove more destructive than isolating the paths from ground.
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Hi @fastfreight
The path from lightning surges to Ethernet connected devices like a TV or streamer or PC is like this:
Outside copper cable --> cable modem --> Wifi router (which also has an Ethernet switch) --> All Ethernet connected devices
So if I can prevent a surge from making the jump from the cable modem to the wifi router then I’ve protected most of my Ethernet connected devices from Ethernet based surges. I also use an outside gas discharge tube on the coax as well as an Ethernet isolator at the end of my two long Ethernet runs.
Of course, this has nothing to do with lightning surges which can occur in the power lines. For that I use a whole house surge protector in combination with point of use surge protectors made by either Tripp Lite or Furman, or when UPS powered have to rely on the surge protectors built into the UPS.
In my mind, it’s not just about protecting the Wifi router (which is a giant PITA to replace) but about protecting anything I have that relies on copper Ethernet cables. I use a lot of Ethernet on streamers and PC’s so the worst case scenario for me is to lose a lot of devices all at once because lightning came in from the cable Internet provider.
Any copper wire that goes from outside to inside can be a lightning source that once inside can jump to any other copper connected device. Antennas should also be surge protected. I had a DirecTV antenna and receiver which would fail due to wind induced surges (electrons would build up on the antenna and build a charge). Once I put a surge protector on it the problem went away.
An Ethernet connected device like a music streamer or PC may have 2 lightning paths, one from the AC and another from the Ethernet and we have to protect both.
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Hi @erik_squires following up on
Fiber optic cables, lacking in any metal components, cannot transmit an electrical surge from point to point.
For this reason I use a fiber converter between the cable modem and Wifi router. There are still potential paths through the AC wiring, but that's dealt with by a UPS with surge protection.
so this would stop electrical surge into the WiFi router? But only into the WiFi router? Are you using Ethernet cable from your modem to your audio gear?
I am just wondering why only protecting the WiFi router..or is it because you have fiber coming into an ONT prior to your modem so that is already not going to get hit? Thanks!
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I have Comcast. I’ve always used my own equipment. Currently using
Arris SB8300 modem and Asus RT-AX88U Router
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Have you considered a fiber media converter set up?
I added a switch right before my DAC and put the media converter /streamer bundle from Small Green Computer. It changed my entire listened experience.
I’ve recently upgraded to their top tier but do have the bundle in a box. If your Interested or have questions let me know. It basically cleans up all the “noise” from your router and give a pin quiet signal to the DAC
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@mitch2 Yes, we do know. Fiber optic cables, lacking in any metal components, cannot transmit an electrical surge from point to point.
For this reason I use a fiber converter between the cable modem and Wifi router. There are still potential paths through the AC wiring, but that's dealt with by a UPS with surge protection.
The other place where Ethernet can pick up a surge is if the cabling is long. It acts as an antenna, and the longer the cable the higher a surge voltage can build up. Of course, whether this matters to you depends very much on where you live. First year I moved here we had several strong lightning storms which took out multiple neighbors cable modems, and a laptop of mine (via the power cord).
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