Why a big boxy Harbeth? I own the P3’s and prefer them to the larger ones. Here is a review.
http://www.hifizine.com/2011/12/harbeth-p3esr/
http://www.hifizine.com/2011/12/harbeth-p3esr/
I should have never ....
... visited the local high end audio store a couple of days ago.
So a couple of days ago, I decided to go down to the local high end audio store to listen to the Proac Response D2 speakers on tube equipment. The folks at this store are very friendly and were willing to go out of their way to accommodate my request. They hooked up the Proacs to some VTL tube separates (sorry I can't remember the exact model numbers, but I believe the VTL preamp and amp were around $9000 combined), and let me listen to the music of my choice - Diana Krall/Live in Paris, Melody Gardot/Currency of Man, Alan Pasqua/The Antisocial Club, etc.
I had high hopes for the Proacs, and for the most part they did not disappoint. The bass was really satisfying, and the details were there for sure. But for some reason I felt that they were more forward sounding than what I had imagined based on reviews. Diana Krall was not sitting in between the other musicians, but she was a good 3 to 4 feet in front of them. I could always tell that the speakers were there, i.e. no wall or disappearing act. I could feel some harshness in the music.
On a whim, I asked them if I could listen to the Sonus Faber Olympica 1 stand mounts that the shop also carries. First of all, I've never seen a more beautiful piece of furniture. They have to be the most gorgeous speakers I've ever seen in my life. The salesman cautioned me that they were almost twice the price of the Proacs. At this point, I'm thinking that the money is probably going more toward aesthetics than sound. I wasn't really expecting a huge difference between the Proacs and the SF Olympicas. But, boy was I wrong!
Unlike many of you, I have only limited experience with high end gear, and almost zero experience with tube equipment. But what I heard that day was a revelation. The Olympicas had the most amazing details, imaging and sound stage. The midrange was pure liquid. And most importantly, they completely disappeared behind the wall of music. Diana Krall was sitting right between the other musicians, a little to the right of the guitarist though. The base was so good that I don't think one would ever need an additional sub. It was that satisfying.
I realize that a lot of that has to do with high end/pricey tube sound and the demo room acoustic setup. But I have not been able to get those few moments out of my head. I was planning on setting up a smaller rig in my study (which is around 10x15 feet), and now I think SF Olympica 1 would be a great choice. The only problem is that it's waaaay over my budget. I was thinking around $3500 total (speakers + integrated + cables), but the Olympicas are over $7500 if you include the gorgeous stands. Of course, I can save money by going the used route but it'll still be way over my original budget.
So my question to all of you -- is there anything else that might compete favorably with the Olympicas in terms of sound (most important) and looks (not the top priority but still a consideration). Whatever I get cannot be big and boxy (Harbeth) though.
Secondly, is there any reasonably priced tube integrated amps that would still provide enough oomph while not sacrificing the stuff that makes tubes so musical and engaging?
So a couple of days ago, I decided to go down to the local high end audio store to listen to the Proac Response D2 speakers on tube equipment. The folks at this store are very friendly and were willing to go out of their way to accommodate my request. They hooked up the Proacs to some VTL tube separates (sorry I can't remember the exact model numbers, but I believe the VTL preamp and amp were around $9000 combined), and let me listen to the music of my choice - Diana Krall/Live in Paris, Melody Gardot/Currency of Man, Alan Pasqua/The Antisocial Club, etc.
I had high hopes for the Proacs, and for the most part they did not disappoint. The bass was really satisfying, and the details were there for sure. But for some reason I felt that they were more forward sounding than what I had imagined based on reviews. Diana Krall was not sitting in between the other musicians, but she was a good 3 to 4 feet in front of them. I could always tell that the speakers were there, i.e. no wall or disappearing act. I could feel some harshness in the music.
On a whim, I asked them if I could listen to the Sonus Faber Olympica 1 stand mounts that the shop also carries. First of all, I've never seen a more beautiful piece of furniture. They have to be the most gorgeous speakers I've ever seen in my life. The salesman cautioned me that they were almost twice the price of the Proacs. At this point, I'm thinking that the money is probably going more toward aesthetics than sound. I wasn't really expecting a huge difference between the Proacs and the SF Olympicas. But, boy was I wrong!
Unlike many of you, I have only limited experience with high end gear, and almost zero experience with tube equipment. But what I heard that day was a revelation. The Olympicas had the most amazing details, imaging and sound stage. The midrange was pure liquid. And most importantly, they completely disappeared behind the wall of music. Diana Krall was sitting right between the other musicians, a little to the right of the guitarist though. The base was so good that I don't think one would ever need an additional sub. It was that satisfying.
I realize that a lot of that has to do with high end/pricey tube sound and the demo room acoustic setup. But I have not been able to get those few moments out of my head. I was planning on setting up a smaller rig in my study (which is around 10x15 feet), and now I think SF Olympica 1 would be a great choice. The only problem is that it's waaaay over my budget. I was thinking around $3500 total (speakers + integrated + cables), but the Olympicas are over $7500 if you include the gorgeous stands. Of course, I can save money by going the used route but it'll still be way over my original budget.
So my question to all of you -- is there anything else that might compete favorably with the Olympicas in terms of sound (most important) and looks (not the top priority but still a consideration). Whatever I get cannot be big and boxy (Harbeth) though.
Secondly, is there any reasonably priced tube integrated amps that would still provide enough oomph while not sacrificing the stuff that makes tubes so musical and engaging?
42 responses Add your response
For an amp, I'd suggest a Prima Luna integrated. For the speakers, I don't know. Not surprised by your observations, Pro Ac has always sounded forward to me, while Sonus Faber has always sounded musical and engaging. For your size room, though, I would be careful, don't get too much speaker for the room--perhaps a smaller Sonus Faber speaker like the Auditor or the Concertino? |
Olympicas are over $7500 if you include the gorgeous stands. Of course, I can save money by going the used route but it'll still be way over my original budget.In a way you are lucky. You actually made the effort to go to a shop and hear a variety of speakers to find the speakers that sound best to you. And now you at least have a basis to start working from. I would suggest you seek out a pair of Vienna Acoustics Haydn Grands and give a listen. VA's are often compared to Sonus Fabers. Also check out Opera loudspeakers. These not only sound similar but have the same styling as SF's. |
You learned a very valuable lesson - all the talk and advice from others, no matter how well-meaning, have nothing to do with whether you will like the recommended product. You also learned that the "price has nothing to do with quality" mantra is not always true. Unfortunately, the more expensive item may well be much better, IF you hear the difference. Some do not, in which case it makes sense to buy the cheaper product. I don’t like to spend anyone else’s money, but sometimes the best thing to do is reevaluate your budget, bite the bullet and buy something you really like, rather than some halfway measure you will always be unsatisfied with. As long as it’s a fiscally responsible purchase, you will have a much greater enjoyment of your system and less desire to upgrade or move sideways. Perhaps you can stretch and get the dealer, who was so nice to you, to sell you his demos and a demo or trade amplifier at a more reasonable price and let him help you achieve in your home what you heard in the store. You may be surprised. Good luck and congratulations on your enlightenment. |
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Even better idea - if you can buy the demos, get a home audition so you know the speakers will match well with your room. Yes, you will spend more than buying used, but you will be confident in your purchase decision. I did this with my speakers. There was no way I was going to spend 12k without hearing them at home. |
Interesting coincidence. Those same Krall/Gardot material are what I also use to compare audio systems, particularly speakers. They really test the speakers' ability to reproduce liquid and warm mid-range spectrum. In my search for the holy grail for this sort of source material, while staying within a reasonable budget for me - <$2K, used or new, I narrowed it down to either a stand-mount Dynaudio Contour s1.4 or Charney Audio Alerion hornloaded speakers. The Alerions, driven with an 8 wpc tube integrated amp, were definitely an eye opener for me. I would even go in as far as saying they had the most satisfying female voice reproduction I had even heard for speakers <$5K. definitely worth a listen for anyone into that sort of music. |
" I have a particular aversion to forward-sounding speakers, and have owned ProAcs for years. I would never have used that adjective for them. For much of the time drove Response 2.5s with Cary SE/PureA/Triode." They can be forward sounding, but it depends on the gear. I had the 2.5's myself. Sometimes people think of forward sounding as bright/harsh. With ProAc, that's not the case. The presentation is more immediate and upfront. Its like sitting closer to the music. If you don't like that quality, it can be dealt with using system matching. When I had my 2.5's driven by some amps (ARC VT-100, VAC 30/30, Ayre V-5, Pass Aleph O's, Krell KAS-250), they sound forward. If I put them with more laid back amps (Rowland 112, CJ Premiere 11, ML 331), they sounded much more neutral. |
I agree the sonus faber olympica all three models are so far my favorite speakers. I think and end speaker for me. It is a well refined speaker and and you may like other well refined speakers that have been recommended like thiel's and like priced vienna acoustics . you should go listen to a few that are set up well and broken in well. then you can make an informed decision on what you want to pursue and if needed get a less expensive model in that same line. however I have some vienna acoustics mozart grands and how I have them set up they are in the vien of those olympica's . To me about 80%there. I love my vienna acoustics . |
The variable in the equation is the system. Just because it was a tube amp that does not mean much except how that particular unit works with that particular speaker. That is why you need to hear a particular component or speaker in your own home/system to evaluate. I have gone to a dealer and heard a particular speaker sound really bad and then gone back months later and really liked them on associated gear that was less expensive. It is all about the interaction between the gear. I have heard top of the line VAC gear on Nola speakers and personally I was not impressed at all. That means nothing to me until I hear the speakers in my system. It takes time to understand how to evaluate gear and understand the overall potential. Too many people in my opinion don't know how to do this or have a bias to what their system does so they don't hear the potential in something else. Also what may be important sonically to you, may not be sonically pleasing to another. Years ago I heard the Sonus Faber Cermona floor standing speakers paired with an all Krell system. It floored me on how good the sound was. Go figure, but in reality they worked so well together. I recently heard a pair of Magico speakers ($40K) mated to low end (by price) PC into a SS DAC (probably under $3K). It did nothing for me but the owner loved the sound. He could not hear the deficiencies in the system. Even when we plugged in another component, he heard the differences for the better but he really could not evaluate the improvement the other component offered or the potential. He was more impressed with his expensive cables. My best advise is to make sure you are getting the most potential out of your system before looking for something new or different. Listen, listen and listen some more until you get to really hear potential and differences. Try different gear in your system to see what the differences are and then understand why those differences occurred. Only then can you begin to understand how to evaluate and find what will work best in your system. Happy Listening. |
I've owned the boxy Harbeth C7ES3's for years now and am waiting for my new Super HL 5 Plus's in Tiger Ebony to arrive from across the pond (distributor was out of Tiger Ebony). I totally get the boxy comment. I got my ass handed to me on this website many years ago when I said I thought Manley amps were ugly. Some people are more sensitive than others I guess. |
I always found dynaudio to have favorable sound sonus Faber's and are priced much better. The contour line has that darker tonality that may give you the same enjoyment as the sf's. Full disclosure, I have a pair of Dynaudios listed but I am not a dealer or anything. I switched to raidhos but dynaudios are always on the top of my rec list and they hold a special place in my heart. Worth demo'ing for sure. |
I've owned several brand named hi end speaker and 3 years ago, due to a move and room restrictions I purchased a pair of SF Cremona Auditor M stand mounts and was absolutely stunned how well they performed. I paired them with 2 REL G2 subs and drove them with Mc 601 monoblocks. I can tell you I shocked alot of my audiophile buddies. The imaging, focus, detail and musicality was spectacular. Very halographic. I recently upgraded to SF Guaneri Evolutions and I do love them, but still to me the shocking thing is how well the little Auditor M's performed by comparison at approximately 25% of the cost!! If I had to I could happily live with the Auditor M's. They have to be one of the most underrated or "under the radar" speakers out there. You can pick up a used pair here on Audigon for $2,500. - $3,000. If you do a google search, there are a couple of good reviews still listed. Enjoy the journey! |
Arafiq You can get great sound on a budget if you know what is important to you. You cannot have everything you may want at that price point. But you can have great music. The most beautiful system I have heard recently was one of the cheapest. An unlikely combinations of KEF LS 50s driven by an Almarro a319b in a small but well treated room. It lacked a lot of things technically. But at the same time one did not care, because the large billowy soundstage and the unforced ease of the flow of the music totally disarmed my prejudices. My advice: make friends with your local dealers, listen a lot, and don't buy anything for a while until you find out what is really important to you. Best of luck. |
Folks: Just wanted to clarify that when I started thinking of building a smaller system for my study, I initially set a budget of about $3500 ($2000 for speakers and $1500 for integrated amp, both used of course). I figured that I could get used Proacs Response D2s for around $2000, and actually went to the dealer to listen to Proacs only. It just so happened that the Proacs didn't do much for me and I fell in love with the much pricier Sonus Faber Olympicas. That's why the title of this thread is 'I should have never ....' :) |
Also, I forgot to mention that I'm not replacing my main rig. This is a new system that I'm planning to put together for my study. So far, here's the list I've compiled based on all the great suggestions here: - Vienna Acoustics Haydn Grands - Dynaudio - Thiel 2.4 (although the ones I listened to at a friend's house were a bit on the bright side) - Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M or Olympica I - Vandersteens (the same dealer carries this brand too, so maybe I'll go back to have a listen) -- any particular stand mount model to focus on? - KEF LS50 - I listened to these at a friend's house about a year ago. They just didn't move me the way the SF Olympicas did. But that could very well be due to his equipment - Primaluna Dialog - great reviews and I really want to try tubes in my smaller system this time. What other reasonably priced tube integrateds should I look for (around $2000 used)? I also like the advice of taking my time and listen to as many choices as possible. The other option is to wait a few months and save up enough funds to buy a used pair of SF Olympica 1s ... yeah, I think I'm in love with these speakers :) Thanks for the great advice |
A thought on a very nice lower priced integrated tube is the Rouge. I've listened to some very pricy tube amps and some other less expensive. I have happily settled on the Rouge Cronus II Mag. (many very favorable reviews). It sells new for around $2,600.00 and you can find for under 2k used. Also, it's made in USA. Good sound can be had for less than a fortune! Good luck |
Here is a link on one of the reviews on the Rouge Cronus Mag II. After living with this amp for several months now, I much agree. headphone.guru: |
A word of caution. I’m sure the SF Olys are a great sounding speaker, but do remember you were hearing them (when you fell in love) through a $9000 amp. That amp could of been 50% or more of the magic you experienced (and fell in love with). I have some good speakers where the amp choice "makes or breaks" them. |
"...That amp could of been 50% or more of the magic you experienced". Hmmm, that would probably be true if we were comparing a $2K amp with $20K amp but not within comparably real-world priced amps. Significant difference yes, twice as bad/good, not sure. I've heard those speakers driven with a 125 wpc NAD integrated and they sounded simply amazing. |
I have a pair of Proac Response D2s and I agree that their image is a little forward, but the things they do right are so right that I'm very satisfied with them, driven by a Hegel H-200 (SS, not tubes--sorry). If you prefer a more recessed image you might consider auditioning a pair of Totem Element Fires. I've heard these and the SF Olympica 1s in my dealer's less-than-ideal space, and both were impressive but out of my price range at the time. They have quite different personalities both from each other and from the Proacs. BTW, if you DO audition the Proac D30r, please post your impressions--I'd be very interested to read what you think of them. |