I'm here for the sharing, not the snobery
Just a quick note. Things around here on Audiogon have been interesting over the past couple of weeks as I've watched a number of trolls shift the tenor of the discussions.
I wanted to say that I fully support information sharing, doing things ourselves, experimentation and ways to broaden who is among us.
The idea that you are or are not an audiophile based on what you have spent, or what exclusive line of products you have purchased is not one I want to support. We should find ways to share, not exclude our passion and grow our dwindling numbers.
Building kits and systems with the younger generation is a fantastic way of getting them into STEM as well as into audio, not to mention builds light years worth of knowledge in very little time. As I've said before, our hobby was built by experimenters, tinkerers and lovers of music much more so than by lovers of spending.
I'll support inclusive, fact based discussions and those who are intellectually curious every time I can.
I wanted to say that I fully support information sharing, doing things ourselves, experimentation and ways to broaden who is among us.
The idea that you are or are not an audiophile based on what you have spent, or what exclusive line of products you have purchased is not one I want to support. We should find ways to share, not exclude our passion and grow our dwindling numbers.
Building kits and systems with the younger generation is a fantastic way of getting them into STEM as well as into audio, not to mention builds light years worth of knowledge in very little time. As I've said before, our hobby was built by experimenters, tinkerers and lovers of music much more so than by lovers of spending.
I'll support inclusive, fact based discussions and those who are intellectually curious every time I can.
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Mahgister (did I mention this, but can I call you Louie?), good points. And I got to agree that my Linguistics professors were probably just having a bit of sport with the more uptight students.I understand.... But i could not resist to answer to your post because linguistic study was for me an illumination.... 😊😊😊😊 my deepest regards to you... |
vladtheimpala -- back when I was in grad school getting an M.A. in Linguistics (a pursuit that took me absolutely nowhere BTW), i guess that this impression about linguistic study is related more about the teachers you had than about the field itself.... For sure "orthograph" hide deepest secrets than we could ever dream of.... In linguistic all consciousness history hide for example in the historical use of some consonant or not in a word.... And the use/meaning ratio transformation of the words in centuries is like a carrot in geological strata of the conscious mind evolution.... It is boosting our own I.Q. with some potent drug.... I suggest: Owen Barfield : "history in english words" to have a clue... https://www.amazon.com/History-English-Words-Owen-Barfield-ebook/dp/B008RLXELG One of my geatest experience in life was linguistic studies, among others studies, and with a great unknown master in the English world: Gustave Guillaume...hIs works are huge and is now in the course of publication in frencch and amount around 40 volumes for now.... His morphologetical dynamic studies about words are like boosting your I.Q. with LSD... |
vladtheimpala -- back when I was in grad school getting an M.A. in Linguistics (a pursuit that took me absolutely nowhere BTW), the professors would utter an "Ugh! Orthography!" whenever somebody brought up spelling. I also gotta say that, spellcheck notwithstanding, laptops & hand-held devices have wreaked havoc on us ignorant, clumsy-fingered hoi-polloi. |
Is there even a true democracy anywhere in the world. There was. But we all voted to eat one guy’s cornflakes, then another, and after a while enough realized Jefferson was right, pure democracy is nothing more than tyranny by majority, and its been muddle along triumvirate constitutional republic ever since. |
If all text or messages that surround the idea of measurements being a ’god’ that all ears must bow down in front of... are all disallowed... Absolutely no one has said this. We are saying that a measurement is not perception and that we should not claim them as even being related unless we can back it up somewhere. It is a lot easier to show things are related than to prove they are not. That's just the nature of things. Also, while dealing with straw men, no one is denying or judging anyone for buying half a billion dollar speaker systems. Rather I am saying that whether you are or are not an audiophile has no connection to how much you spent. If you feel attacked by this statement, that's not on me. Erik |
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If all text or messages that surround the idea of measurements being a ’god’ that all ears must bow down in front of... are all disallowed... ...then...it is likely that the vast majority, possibly 90% or more.. of all contentious and viciously worded posts on a given audio forum will cease and desist. Probably permanently. As people can hear better than the current crop of measurement methodology can account for. And there really isn’t anything more to say. As... anything else, if properly oriented to the post’s meaning...is just a complex long winded data and reference packed unfolding of what the above post means. Pages and pages of text to lay it all out. If you require all that text and data, then dig it out yourself, it’s all out there. I’m not your professor, or whatever --- I owe you nothing. you owe the rest of us your quiet contemplation as you get up to speed. if you can’t get up to speed, then stay out of the discussion. if the means and the way of such points in logic in data - are beyond you, then shut your yap and leave the rest of us in peace. find another forum, Mr recent (probably from audioholics) troll. It is important to understand and tha a functional democracy does not allow for subversive interference to be allowed or take place. Democracy does not mean a mosh pit or free for all. that's the animal pit. Like the monolithic nature of a cult, or movement, democracy still has to watch for... and cut out, like the cancer it is... any things (participants) that are found to be purposely inserted into the fray, as methods of interference and disruption of the primary idea and act of democratic ideals within the context of what the situation.. or in this case, what the forum stands for and tries to be.... |
@audition__audio +1 Watch those who judge . They would probably be buying very expensive gears if they would win the lottery. And they would post about it. When getting old , there is less and less things in life that go for you. How pleasant it is to buy a very good , highend peace of equipment. And being happy to talk about it.There is no shame to do that. |
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I dont recall anyone ever stating that they equate the money they spent as a determination of their status as an audio enthusiast. But I think it fair to assume that more money well spent leads to significant system improvements and increased enjoyment. Why some of you make these ridiculous judgements is beyond me. No one is in any position to judge the motivation of others and are certainly in no position to judge what is a proper amount to spend on any pursuit. |
I started out in this hobby when I was a freshman in high school. At the time, I had yet to figure out if I was headed towards a career in the arts or the sciences. With this hobby, I could indulge in a little of both. I bought Dyna 70 and PAS kits and put them together, added a Garard table, a Stanton cartridge and a pair of Lafayette speakers. The system has improved over the years but the philosophy is the same: keep it simple, keep it cheap, and enjoy. It’s a musical instrument, not a cultish status symbol. |
This thread is welcome, given how many other threads are bulldozed off-course by rude, insecure individuals who pollute discourse with attitude & snark. "Rude" is the word for it... I’ve learned plenty from this or that thread on Audiogon and wish to continue doing so. But I confess to bailing on any number of otherwise intriguing threads when one of these self-assigned disruptors shows up to push it over the edge. |
I've been here since the beginning, knew Arnie, the founder personally. Initially, this forum had a great sense of camaraderie, vast majority of us at earlier phases of building high end systems. Over time as systems improved more trolls appeared, pride morphed into hubris. My take is this isn't solely an Audiogon thing, it seems social media has made us all experts, opinions are seemingly becoming obsolete, replaced by belief. Self knowledge and/or mindfulness of subjective perspective is increasingly rare. Nowadays, I tend to post more on the hobbyist, newbie type forums, more open minded and willing to learn communities. |
These posts are fun. Some people are just rude. I was kicked off of another forum when this guy got nasty and I got nasty back. Some people can dish it but can’t take it. That’s been my experience. I PM rude people if they say something that wasn’t said with respect. The bottom line is you can say whatever you want if you are respectful about it, to me anyways. |
@artemus_5 ...agreed upon concept... Truth is that which slips away when grasped casually.. This 'shared pursuit' of ours illustrates that in wonderous ways. *s* Just when one feels 'This is IT', the 'something' sparks the resumption of the Hunt.....for some.... Eventually, all stop. Many means to that end.... Ultimately, it's the enjoyment of the music, or ought to be. Why else? Brag rights about the 'how and the why'? ...seems self-defeating, frustrating, endless... I have my own 'chase', but it's a bit different than what most pursue. It doesn't cost much, and fills the void I seek to fill. But the music remains the reason, and always will.....;) |
@hilde45 I agree with your point about cherry picking. I try not to do it but know of my humanity as well. And then there is the perception of the reader. I'm not PC enough for the modern world. I'm old and my stepfather would be would be 133 yrs old this year. Regarding cherry picking , I often believe that those who do it a lot probably do not really know any other facts. Its not that they were not exposed to them but rather they chose to forget about them because it didn't fit their world view and/or were too cumbersome. I can relate because I know that truth is often a meddlesome thing which sometimes forces me to accept it or lie to myself which I think even more troublesome |
@djones51 It’s easy to agree to disagree on personal preference it’s only when some think personal preference are commandments or universal. BINGO!!! I agree 100%. IMO, The problem lies in writing and reading in our busy world. Both have their problems in communication. I am in no way opposed to test measurements or blind testing. I like Paul McGowan & Hans Beekhuyzen who say it has its place in the mfg process. I agree. But because we do not know each other personally and because its improbable to read every post, its very easy to paint a black & white picture of someone when often we are more nuanced. |
Case in point, @mahgister’s system. Take a look at it. It works for him. I can’t argue the objectivity of that.You cannot look at it.... The photo are too old and my dedicated audio room laboratory is "nuttier " than you think... My " mechanical equalizer" for example include discarded tubes and pipes and straws and empty toilet roll papers ...And it is impossible for me to take a photo of all that...( light is not very good and all is distributed along the room) Believe me it is nut.... But believe me my basic audio system could prove to anyone here at peanuts price that embeddings controls is almost EVERYTHING in audio...My system is not the best to say the least compared to most here.... But it is one of the best there is on earth for the ratio quality/price...500 bucks.... And which one of you control all acoustic concepts: imaging, soundstage, listener envelopment, source width, AT WILL with no electronic gear, costly "tweaks" or equalizer? Who? No one.... Save me, sorry to be immodest here with only some psychoacoustic basic facts among others.... At no cost....Then.... Look at my room but dont laugh too much.... Last laugh is for me when i see any audio system and after that his price tag and his sound on youtube sometimes... I am not deaf even if 70 years old...Not at my best but owning old "donkey" very long ears.... 😊😊😊😊😊 I sell creativity not products... |
All joking aside, this reminds me of my own reaction-formation process to room/acoustical treatment. First off, I for years decried and dismissed those on this forum who rushed to any thread asking for component recommendations with cries for room treatment, often costing much more than some of the recommended components. Yes, I knew that room treatments DO make a difference, but I don't know and don't pretend to know how much or how little they do - my own room treatments being rugs, large canvas paintings, and boxy IKEA floor lamps in the corners. And yet the room treatment members were, by and large, a knowledgeable bunch whose own systems and discussions reflected a deep and wide perspective of the hobby. And while I'm never going to drop mad stacks on bass traps and corner thingies and vertical cityscape squares on the walls, I'm trying to get over my subjectivity on the topic and at least validate the objectivity of decent room treatment as a vital component of a good system. |
In anything there are two side for any coin... It is simpler and deeper to recognize this fact... Arguing after that is less attack and more complementarity... Anyway most audio engineers are also artists for example... Then all arguing about something comes less from being right than being forfgetful of something... Save for being patently wrong or very "forgetful" here like thinking that for example "absorbing all reflections" is always good for acoustic impression... Because some reflections are in fact and in truth good for the acoustical timing threshold control.... This is a fact....one side coin? No the coin is acoustic here, not only the reflection concept... Then seeing two sides is possible if we look the encompassing perspective and not the details only... it is more easy to love someone than hating it....Generally.... But for some case being "Christlike" is mandatory.... And anyway it is mandatory to become Buddah or Christlike....No choices here.... 😊 «Give me your popsicle please and you will be Christlike»-Groucho Marx |
@cleeds I'm in philosophy. @artemus_5 "One of the problem on any forum or discussion is "facts". Everyone is interested in the "FACTS" But facts actually say nothing until their interpretation. There is where the disagreement starts." Excellent point. Sometimes it starts even earlier, since the question of *which* facts are relevant is an interpretive move which precedes the selection of facts. In conversations about religion this is sometimes called "proof texting" or, more generically, "cherry-picking." It's not about whether something is or is not a fact; it's about whether (as the Brits pointed out about US foreign policy a decade ago) the facts were being selected to suit the policy. @erik_squires "We need to give more people latitude when they make a subjective statement, as personal taste and value systems can't be argued." I have seen my own value systems argued against here and it has helped me. I said, at one point, that I valued a lot of clarity in the upper end. People questioned whether I liked "brightness" or "accuracy." I realized that I was not clear in my own mind about what I actually valued. So, them questioning me about my own senses and what I thought I valued helped me reconsider my own subjective "certainties." They were, it turns out, wrong. The result was that I got clearer about what I should value, instead. That was a lesson for me, both about vocabulary and fineness of sensations. That's the hard part for a lot of people -- there IS such a thing about arguing about taste, at the very least, to help someone else discover what they sense, what they call it, and how that experience should factor into a larger, composite experience. (Just watch a parent try to get a kid to enjoy a vegetable. Part of the challenge is to get them to abandon certain predilections about what food *should* taste like. They are just too narrow and their tastes need to be expanded. As an audio correlate, look at posts about how many, less expensive B&W speakers are bright; this quality helps make a fast impression, but for those who know more, it lacks some of the "sophistication" of other (better) speakers. That is about the sugar-high of brightness being taken as (subjectively) better than the air, clarity, non-fatiguing implementation of other speakers. |
It's easy to see the problem just looking at some of these posts. It's easy to agree to disagree on personal preference it's only when some think personal preference are commandments or universal. I can't agree to disagree on the premise that measurements and science are mutually exclusive. Science uses measurements to explain not just theorize. I assume we all know the current working theory for gravity is Einstein's Theory of Relativity but Newton's laws are sufficient to explain phenomena on Earth and get us to planets in the Solar system. Science uses those measurements all the time. We know the frequency range of human hearing, we know how the ear works, we know the physics and electrical laws and theories to build electronics. We can't know what each individual "perceives". We can use models and tests to get an idea of what "most" like but not all. Ignoring what science can do with a general dismissal "we don't know everything so we know nothing" leads to a lot of these conflicts. |
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As one who has recently posted a "controversial" thread I have lurked with this discussion since, for me, is kinda like saying water is wet. Everyone says they want civility when in deed, they want total agreement with their opinion. IMO, This is one of the reasons for this posts’ popularity & mostly lack of division (and Lord knows we need that now!) So, Thanks @erik_squires for your thread. One of the problem on any forum or discussion is "facts". Everyone is interested in the "FACTS" But facts actually say nothing until their interpretation. There is where the disagreement starts. I may seem somewhat new here because I haven’t posted that much until recently. But I was pretty active here and AA since I started here in 2000. I’ve seen A’gon change formats, owners and posters. There has always been some sarcasm, banter, etc but it was mostly civil & well intentioned IMO. . And there has always been "troublesome" know it all who is totally dogmatic in his view and cannot agree to disagree. But they were a vast minority and were not encouraged. However now we have had an influx of these types recently. As in the Bible & most religions, there are commandments and personal convictions. There are some pretty hard and fast rules. But there is personal preference too. I suggest there is far more of the later than the former. When people cannot agree to disagree on these personal preferences, we will have a lack of civility. |