Just a quick note. Things around here on Audiogon have been interesting over the past couple of weeks as I've watched a number of trolls shift the tenor of the discussions.
I wanted to say that I fully support information sharing, doing things ourselves, experimentation and ways to broaden who is among us.
The idea that you are or are not an audiophile based on what you have spent, or what exclusive line of products you have purchased is not one I want to support. We should find ways to share, not exclude our passion and grow our dwindling numbers.
Building kits and systems with the younger generation is a fantastic way of getting them into STEM as well as into audio, not to mention builds light years worth of knowledge in very little time. As I've said before, our hobby was built by experimenters, tinkerers and lovers of music much more so than by lovers of spending.
I'll support inclusive, fact based discussions and those who are intellectually curious every time I can.
OK, time to bring it home. Here are my feelings on eric’s "I’m here for the sharing, not the snobbery" thread.
I have been on this website for 20 years, and in the last two or so there have been a couple of members join who post incessantly that are functional, verbally fluent, but otherwise unbalanced, manipulative, self absorbed and craftily nasty. I wouldn’t give a s**t and would just ignore them but their presence is on virtually every other post. One of them even went out of his way to insult Almarg until he realized how popular Al was. Until they go away this website will not be what it once was.
Before you think I am some kind of pansy, I don’t mind a little or even a lot of controversy, I had absolutely no problem with geoffkait and frankly wish he was back.
I’m
in an argumentative field, and it’s very tricky to have discussions
where someone wants to argue for something (prove their point) while
also remaining civil ...
What field are you in, politics? It's difficult to imagine any other field that's inherently argumentative.
Desiderata Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit... Max Ehrman 1948
The false dichotomy you describe is clearly not what I discussed in my post which is more about how we discuss and treat various points of view in this forum.
Isn't "objective vs. subjective" (in the sense of 'measurable' vs. 'experienced') a false dichotomy? There certainly are (objective) ways to test or measure subjective experience. The simplest would be ABX testing, which I would think those who argue in favor of particular subjective differences ('A sounds better to me than B' or 'I can distinguish A from B even though your testing equipment cannot') would welcome. The results of such tests would be completely 'objective'. (One might dispute their validity, of course; but if a 'subjectivist' [it's a bad word, but I think here everyone knows what it means] were to claim that no test of their experience is valid, then they wouldn't really belong on a board that devotes 99% of its discussion to material 'things' like amplifiers, cables, electric current etc.)
I think one thing that's important to get a handle on when discussing with others is objective vs. subjective. We need to give more people latitude when they make a subjective statement, as personal taste and value systems can't be argued.
"I like amps with meters" - Can't be argued.
"Amps with meters improve the sound because of the way they slow the photons as they cross the NP junction in the transistors" - well, that is completely arguable!!
We also need to understand the difference between measurement and science. Science advances and discovers new connections. Scientists create new models to explain experience. Measurements and technicians do not. They repeat old methods to put a dot on a chart. Don't confuse measurement with experience, or cause and experience. Those two are rarely tied well enough together in our field, with certain actual scientists and organizations rare exceptions.
I’m in an argumentative field, and it’s very tricky to have discussions where someone wants to argue for something (prove their point) while also remaining civil. As we've seen in the wider world, without trust no fact can stand and no argument can win. Trust and care for others' dignity is the one indispensable ingredient to constructive dialogue.
Debates and arguments remain civil in my field when people remain intellectually and emotionally open to the idea that they’re wrong, they missed something, or there’s an entirely other way to frame or approach the question.
It also helps to be as explicit as possible about what the goal sought is; that way, people are not arguing at cross purposes (i.e., for different goals).
(I don’t really understand @oldhvy’s post about not needing to "prove" things. Anyone who gives or asks for reasons is engaged in proof. His issue, I suspect has to do with people aggressively or relentlessly insisting that they’re right. Which is different.)
I appreciate @erik_squires comment. Not sure if some responses are immaturity, "know-it-all", arrogance, or just condescending to us "lessers". A while back I posted a similar thought:
dreas18 posts04-17-2021 9:08amTo the simple question @kingbr posed I prefer XLR.
On a side note, this thread illustrates the best and worst of forums. While I truly respect (and I believe most do) @millercarbon and others who are far more knowledgeable, decorum might suggest another way to join in / reply. And yes, I may be inviting a host of sarcasm and hate.
I've yet to meet anyone who has audio-omniscience. One reason I enjoy Hans Beekhuyzen is that while he occasionally employs mild sarcasm, he tries to educate and explain. I think we all (?) enjoy learning, reading, listening, exploring, and enjoying different aspects of audio. I continue to learn from experts and a lot of personal experience buying, A-B testing, "upgrading", etc. To me, this is all part of the enjoyment.
I've got a very nice headphone system: dac connected to 2 different amps. I tested (A-B) with RCA and XLR. I'm no millercarbon but I could tell a significant improvement (BTW using 2 different balanced openback headphones and 1 IEM, all with balanced cables) with XLR over RCA and the cost wasn't that much steeper than good RCA cables. Additionally, my main stereo is all XLR balanced and I can also tell a difference.
As Hans closes his YouTubes videos, "...and whatever you do, enjoy the music". :-)
Agreed, since most people don't have an endless pot of money to spend my way of thinking is get the best you can afford that your own ears tell you is the best for you.
I disagree...I think it's extremely important to not only spend your brains out on your gear and mention your other expensive hobbies (at least one gifted listener here has described how much money he has), but to pontificate at length about how smart you are and how impeccable your taste is because you are, in fact, superior to other lesser people. Otherwise, how would they learn?
"The problem Stuart is that hearing is so subjective that it is difficult for anyone to relate to what someone hears especially when they do not really know what they are listening to".
Yessir-- of course! I didn't mean to imply I disagreed with this. It was the OP's use of the phrase "fact based discussions" that triggered my first post in this thread. I interpreted this as an expression of the same mind-set that insists cables cannot sound different, based on "facts". However, it would appear that I jumped the gun. I apologize to all concerned, especially erik_squires for mischaracterizing his post. There was no ill will intended!
Genuine thanks to all those who share agenda-less, ego-free info. and advice. I’m a relative newbie here, and more of a lurker/learner than a poster/informer, but have benefitted greatly from some of the knowledge here. To the extent anyone cares what one relatively newly minted aspiring audiophile (not sure when the ‘aspiring’ can properly be stricken) thinks, I’ll offer the following: if someone like me can name at least five brand names of various components in connotation with your particular username without glancing at your system details, you’re trying too hard. Just my opinion.
I could not agree with you more. I thought I was the only one. Some of the put downs and cute remarks makes me feel perhaps you need to be a snob to be an audiophile. What would be funny would be to discover the cute guy doing the put down might be worth 1/10 the amount. I thought this group was created to encourage people to share and learn rather than troll for opportunities to put someone down. It would also be interesting to know who the dealers are.
Right on Erik. Well said. Just ignore the trolls. If you read their comments they become easy to identify . After that you can now enjoy the benefits of the majority of people that support this forum.
This has always been a good resource for me and I appreciate the contributions from many knowledgeable people.
For me, one of the big benefits from reading the discussions, is when people share their first hand experiences with gear. Be that a component or a tweak. Something they tried, how they felt it worked for them and if it was worth the effort, or $$$'s to acquire it.
And I agree, there has been much in the way of opinions by contributors who have never tried tweaks or listened to the gear in question. And there are a lot of strong opinions being expressed based on a belief of what they think it should do.
Couldn't care less how much, or how little something costs. I do care what someone who has tried it thinks about it, and the context in which it was being used.
And there is not much in the way of new ideas being introduced here. How many times have you read the question "Has anyone tried doing A to B? I think, if you do A to B, then C may be a possibility?" But I suspect that is more of a DIY thing.
More often than not, there is a strong negative backlash to any approach or tweak that someone has tried. They feel this works for them and they explain what they hear. Then there are the responses. From people who have not tried it, but they know, in no uncertain terms, that its not possible. When asked if they have tried it, some variant of "I don't need to taste dog crap to know it tastes like crap" response generally pops up. Which is the opposite of being open minded. And this, there has been a lot more of lately.
Aaaaaaaaamen!!!I entered this forum to get advice and insights from those more knowledgeable. I found rather quickly it turns into insults, political comments, and name calling. Other forums are less like this and I now frequent them more often for advice or to answer a question. Sadly this forum, at times, becomes a megaphone of cacophony. Thanks Eric
I’m all for rational inclusivity. But many people in this hobby have an unfortunate tendency to engage in audio jihad when confronted with something that challenges what they believe to be true in their personal audio belief conjoint.
Take speaker cables, for example. If I had just 1/100 of a penny for every word written about the sound (or not) of speaker cables, I would be the planet’s wealthiest human! 🤑🤑🤑
An experiment I’d love to see someone conduct is to measure the inductance, capacitance, and resistance of a specific length of a highly regarded good sounding speaker cable. Next, I’d construct a speaker cable of the same length, using different materials with identical measures of inductance, capacitance,and resistance.
Then I’d turn these samples over to the audiophile press to compare against each other.
I posit there would be no discernible difference in sound quality between the two cables.
I personally believe that there can be audible differences, but I believe this is because an important application of inductors in active circuits is that they tend to block high-frequency signals while letting lower-frequency oscillations pass. Note that this is the opposite function of capacitors. Combining the two components in a circuit can selectively filter or generate oscillations of almost any desired frequency.
Ergo, I posit I could measure and duplicate the sound of any speaker cable or interconnect currently being marketed as a good sounding wire.
Measurements do not tell you what a system sounds like either and in what room?
No but they'll tell you if an amp is going to struggle or not at different frequencies to drive a certain speakers load. And it doesn't matter what room you have, it can't fix that problem.
So you need to "understand and absorb" measurement's and bench tests as well. Just because you you don't understand them, do not write them off, make an effort to learn how to use them.
After all every piece of equipment you have was designed using them.
The building stuff side of things always interested me. I like to know how something works and why it sounds the way it does. I have DIY’ed lots of vibration control, power conditioners, cables of all types, and more. That may be why I avoid stuff where the advertising seems to unrealistically stretch the boundaries of science. I built my first pair of “higher quality” speakers 45 years ago when I was 19 and still remember the helpfulness of the man at the lumber yard who worked with me to find the right birch plywood, the care I took in adding internal bracing and finishing the cabinets, and the knowledgeable salesman who let me into the attic storeroom of the local stereo shop to pick out a pair of Jensen 12-inch triaxial drivers......I couldn’t afford the ALNICO version unfortunately. Anyway, your point about helping the younger generation build kits and systems struck a chord and reminded me of the excitement of building that first pair of speakers that got me through college and beyond, and the helpful people that made the experience a positive one. Yes, I still have the speakers.
@stuartk , And, that is absolutely fine for you. The problem Stuart is that hearing is so subjective that it is difficult for anyone to relate to what someone hears especially when they do not really know what they are listening too. Measurements do not tell you what a system sounds like either and in what room? Certain issues are objective and easy to ascertain such as build quality. Sometimes there are obvious physical characteristics that affect a units performance. This is very true for tonearms as an example. Many people actually buy equipment based on what it looks like, not sounds like. I saw this over and over again when I worked selling Hi Fi. My point is relying solely on what some one hears is a mistake. Take it into consideration sure but with a grain of salt.
Your comments make me wonder about those of us who build systems utilizing our ears, rather than facts/measurements.
Is there a place for us, here, as well ?
Absolutely, but don’t be surprised if your not handled with kid gloves when you say how amazing a pair of Wilson Alexia’s sound with a 20w SET Moto: Read and learn how to use measurements and tests also
I agree that making claims/assertions without backing them up helps no-one. And it's not that I don't employ reasoning when it comes to audio-- it's just that, in the end, I make final decions based on what pleases my ears.
"I'll support inclusive, fact based discussions and those who are intellectually curious every time I can".
OK. I'm a creative person-- I have a studio art degree, have played guitar for many decades. I enjoy creative writing, photograpy and cooking. I trust my own aesthetic judgement in these endeavors and that trust extends to choosing audio gear as well.
Your comments make me wonder about those of us who build systems utilizing our ears, rather than facts/measurements.
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