How expensive are best NOS tubes ? And how difficult to find ?

If you are interested in reasonably priced cryogenically treated tubes, contact Ron Sheldon at Cryoset.  His cryo'd new production Gold Lion tubes sound great and seem to last forever.  http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/index.php

Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio

+1  I have known Kevin for over 30 years.  The dude is a tube guru.  He has never steered me wrong.

Jim McShane is the fourth name that should go in that shortlist.

I forgot to mention about a good tube dealer in my post. I too, get my tubes from Andy Bouman of VTS. This gentleman is extremely knowledgeable about tubes. Especially NOS. Yes. Different makes of tubes have specific types of sound and you should match them to your system accordingly. 

gillatgh, Unless you plan to become a tube fanatic, when you do start to roll tubes buy them from a reputable dealer rather than off ebay.  There are good tubes available there and they are probably cheaper but you need to know what you're looking for and have a tube tester to make sure they are as advertised.

Good tube dealers will talk to you about what sort of sound you would like to get with your new tubes and offer educated opinions on what  might work for you.  Some good dealers are:

Brent Jessee - he has a lot of information about tubes on his web site if you would like to study up a little.

Andy Bouwman at Vintage Tube Services - He can be a little slow getting your tubes to you but many people feel he's the best.

Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio - very knowledgeable and very straightforward with his advice.  He knows what he likes.  Some people don't like that but I enjoy talking with him.

There are others that other people will recommend.  That's just 3 to get you started.

Mr m, thank you for your input. It's good to hear you are also satisfied with the Pharaoh. Since I had no knowledge of tube equipment and reading up I decided that it was my best choice for entering this realm. I happen to very much agree with you. Out of the box I was impressed with the unit. Of course I have nothing to compare it to. I think I don't need to compare any longer. Someone else mentioned Mullard also. I'll give that a try when able. The Pharaoh is used with B&W 803D2, Musical Fidelity A3CD, vintage 1976 Sony PS4300 TT. I'm streaming audio thru an Oppo 103 using aux input. I'm also using the HT bypass where I can use my SS preamp for comparison. I will be removing this connection as there is no comparison between the tube pre and the SS lexicon pre. My SS system has been permanently assigned to HT duty only. 
Again thank you for your input and suggestions.

I have a Rogue Pharaoh. Great sounding unit. Has a very good Phono stage and headphone amp and an outstanding line level section. The stock tubes that come with the Pharaoh are JJ  12au7 tubes. I experimented with some 50 to 60 year old Mullard 12au7's, NOS. This, in my opinion, took an already good sounding amp to a much better one. The sound became more holographic. Air and space around instruments and voices became much more natural. The soundstage expanded in all directions. Pair the NOS tubes along with a premium power cord, doesn't have to be an expensive one, and you will be set. Depending on what you have in your system, you can experiment with Telefunken and Amperex tubes also. They can do similar things to the sound like the Mullards, The best thing to do is experiment.
Cheers,
Tim

Thank you all for your replies to my inquiries.  I love the forums as it provides a very diverse environment and opinions. I am learning a lot on my new tube endeavor. Thanks for enlightening me on my "plate" question. Thanks for your suggestions.  
For a 40 year SS veteran this is a big change. All my SS experiences have evolved from the early days of getting the best, in my opinion, to top of the line in the later days. I am satisfied with what I have. Now, after hearing a tube sound, I can honestly say I had no idea of what I was missing and regret the amounts of money spent on improving my SS environment.  I find I no longer listen to my SS system and favor the tube. Just last night I realized I had been immersed into the sound for 6 hours and time stood still. Did not realize it was 11PM before I retired to bed. It's a good thing I'm retired and have that time on my hands. I am truly impressed with that "tube" sound I always heard of. What a great way to enjoy my golden years.

Welcome to the world of tubes.  The Rogue should be a nice sounding integrated.  I know we have some Rogue fans here.

Tube rolling is just trying different tube brands in your amp to tune the sound to your liking.  There are also variations on the 12AU7 like the 5814 and many others that work where a 12AU7 is called for.   So there are a lot of tubes that you can roll into your amp, but it's not a cheap form of entertainment.  The Rogue has 2 12AU7s from what I can tell and any 12AU7 should be able to work in your amp.  What brand of tubes did it come with? 

Why don't you start a new thread asking Rogue owners what tube brands they found to work well  in their amps.  They can probably give you a better educated opinion than I can.

Just purchased a Rogue Pharaoh integrated and am not familiar with tube jargon but read that "rolling" tube can be fun experiment if you know what you're doing. 

The plates are the black or gray (usually gray) rectangular or square objects that take up most of the space in the tube. Long plates are usually found in older tubes, early (1950s) versions of tubes like the 12AU7. They may sound different from the later short plate or box plate or square plate (three different names for the same type of plate) versions of the tube but any 12AU7 socket that can use a long plate should also be able to use a short plate.

Tell us what brand of preamp you have and we may be able to help you get the right tubes in it.

Very new to this game, just purchased my first tube pre amp. Been ss forever. My question is, what is the difference in plates on a tube? My pre calls for a 12au7 long plate. Are there any other "plates"?

Speaking of 6922 tubes, try some  National Matsushita 7DJ8/PCC88 made in Japan new manufacture. The have replaced my Valvo Cca's sound great and are very affordable.

I too compared 6922’s 20 years ago, and I found that the best tubes were also the best bargains for what they were: HP branded. Back in the day, stories circulated that engineering students got part time work at HP testing tubes - and rejecting 95%. Let that sink in - rejecting 95% of NIB premium military tubes.

Guess that’s why the moon shots came off.

The best 6922’s were pinched waist Amperex until I discovered HP selected tubes, and the best available to me were the 1962 Telefunkens. These are so rare that most people have never heard of them, or even doubt their existence. Made the Plain Jane 1961 TF 6922 sound like garbage. I bought the last NOS sleeve of early HP/TF that I saw, back in ’98. Good luck finding more.

My system has been basically the same for more than 25 years except for the CD player.  ARC pre, LS2B MKII + remote takes a 6DJ8 but has been on a diet of late 1960's to early 1970's 6922 Cca Siemens and Halske grey plate NOS for the last 20 years. Did a big shoot out 20 years ago and except for one stint with a Valvo pinched waist 6922 Cca from 1958 it's been all Siemens.   The problem is 20 years ago they were plentiful as brand new never used @ $80 a tube and now they are $400 or more for a tube that still meets NOS readings.  There are no new ones I can find so fortunately I will live with the three new ones I still have in stock before trying out some Russian Rockets from the 1970's that are new and were highly touted.  AFAIC, the best are long gone.

Well for me the TS 6550 bp has the same glorious mids as the EL34's but adds a hair of warmth and has the lows EL34's don't have besides more power. I felt the EAT KT88 has the most linear sound from top to bottom along with the original KR Audio KT88's. Just saw an ad for new KR KT88's which may be back in production. Ei KT90's are somewhat linear with a bit more in the lows but had the best sound stage of them all. The original Gec KT88's are also quite linear.I didn't use them much since I preferred the Ei KT90.
I'm sure transistors also have a sound signature too. To me Pass labs or Dartzeel is a much warmer sound than SimAudio or Soulution as a couple of examples.
Going back to speakers I preferred a warmer sounding amp when I had the Dyn C1's and a more linear sound with Raidho. But there is also the beauty of a tube amp. If you want a different sound signature you can swap out some tubes and not have to purchase a new amp.

Another vote for Vintage Tube Services !!! Andy is great to deal with and is also super knowledgeable.

But for me, unless too much, better this kind of coloration than 'coloration by omission '
done by transistor amps.

Inna
yea probably some coloration trades taking place like swapping boutique capacitor, resisters, etc.....
i was thinking a nice CA or WA red wine....
but the French gotta eat too

Different tubes with different sound signature. Different coloration ?

When I had an Octave V70se and later the V110 I tried a lot of different input - splitter  and power tubes. I always preferred the sound of vintage/out of production tubes. With some the difference in sound was huge and in others not so much. As far as NOS who really knows if they really are NOS or used.

That said I started with Dyn C1 sig speakers. My favorite tube was the original TS 6550 black plate followed closely by the solid grey plate. With those the little Mullards were a great compliment. Then I got the V110 and hated the Russian KT120's. The old TS were still my favorite. I also tried some British Gec KT88's. Didn't really care for those but not bad. Jim McShane told me about Ei KT90's but he wouldn't sell me any. When I first found some here on the Agon I bought them. These IMO were very good and at the time pretty reasonable. Then I upgraded the Dyn C1's to Raidho D1's. Now I didn't care for the TS 6550 or the little Mullards. KT120's sounded a bit better but still not good. The Gec KT88's and Ei KT90's were the tubes that sounded best with the D1's.

My point is all tubes have a sound signature that will vary with manufacturers (not always labels for they may be only one manufacturer that makes many labels).

Isn't it unfortunate that even premium Western manufacturers are dependent on Chinese and Russian tubes ? To put it another way, if it were not for them we might not see VAC and other equipment except for some very expensive pieces with NOS tubes. Not to mention that there are probably many outsourced parts in the equipment. Hell, it's almost like Great Britain that no longer makes steel and matches. What are they doing over there ?
No, I wouldn't buy tubes on ebay, I would buy at reliable places.

VAC gear is voiced to sound like a VAC with the stock tubes -- which are generally very carefully selected Chinese tubes, but sometimes military overstock NOS. I got mixed results rolling NOS tubes into the Renaissance Mk 3 preamp; the stock tubes (mostly Chinese Penta-Labs labeled 12AX7) ended up going back in, *except* for a very specially selected "MC grade" single 12AX7 in the phono stage (RCA) from Andy at Vintage Tube Services.

Some gear is voiced very specifically for the tubes it ships with, which will usually be Chinese and/or Russian. That can be good or bad. I think it’s good in VAC’s case; if you bought a VAC is was probably because you fell in love with their "house" sound. And that's what you get, with no fuss! In other scenarios, I’m not sure it’s a great idea to voice gear around Electro Harmonix 12AX7/12AU7/6SN7/EL34/6CA7/KT90 -- those tubes are much zingier up top, and grainier, than the numerous other alternatives (but the EH is cheap).

In my Rogue amps I go nuts rolling small signal NOS, because they respond very well to it. It actually shipped with all EH tubes and sounded bright (imagine my shock), which it SHOULD because that’s how those EH tubes are. Nowadays I've settled on Mazda silver plate 12AX7 (rare and very expensive at 350-400 a matched pair) and Sylvania Black Plate 12BH7 (rare but not too expensive when found), after MUCH experimentation with the usual suspects. The sonic difference is WELL worth the cost to me. Now that I know what I want and what it should sound like, I will in fact source used Ebay tubes if I have to -- if it sounds great it probably is good.

jl35

that is exactly how I met Andy at Vintage
i spoke with Glen at Aesthetix about potential tuberolling in my Pandora DAC and Glen sent me to Andy

some tube gear manufacturers have specific sellers/stores they recommend to their customers seeking NOS tubes...

Yes, very good points. I can see that I will have nothing to worry about when it comes to NOS tubes for the phono and preamp. Where you get the tubes is very important. As for the power amps, well, it is going to cost but should be worth it.
Thank you everyone. I think, this thread is helpful for anyone considering a big move into the world of tube electronics.

One of the reasons why you will find a wide variety of opinions on vintage tubes comes from the fact that most tubes sold as NOS are really just old tubes where the amount of prior use is unknown and wildly variable.  Even when someone has "tested" the tube, that does not say very much as most tube testers can do little more than tell you if a tube is near dead or not (something like the modern Amplitrex tester which tests at full power gives a better picture).

Speaking very generally, many varieties of vintage tubes tend to have a longer life than modern tubes.  Given the high cost of many of the more desirable vintage tubes, the decision on whether to go that route comes down to how much one likes the particular sound of a tube, how much one can budget on replacing tube, how averse to "gambling" on disappointing one is and how hard is your equipment on the tube.  On the last point, some gear run tubes conservatively and certain tubes will last seemingly forever when not driven hard.  With that kind of gear, it makes more sense to splurge on the good stuff.  I have an amp that runs four 348s and four 349s, both of which I can find substitute tube types that cost a tiny fraction of the price of these tubes, but, I don't use the cheaper alternatives because the amp has been running for years with the same tubes (which were probably old when I got the amp).  

Well, real audiophiles are not many people, they go the extra mile.
But money is tight these days, anything audio I buy - I have to cut the expenses somewhere else. Still, $300 bottle of French wine once a year is something that I can do.

I just want to add a vote for NOS or lightly used tubes, but I can see that the benefits might not be worth the trouble and expense for many people. 

Glen, this is certainly a good point, I am not sure how to figure it out when it comes to power amps. I would not be concerned much about phono stage and line preamps. Of course, another obvious point is how many tubes you need for a power amp. Tubes in preamp lasting for a decade if you are lucky ? That's great. In any case, I will most likely start with phono preamp, it makes sense to me.
Tom, I heard there is a Navy ship junkyard in Russian Arctic. How do tubes react to cold, by the way ? Maybe Andy knows, about the junkyard I mean, and the cold. I bet he's got an interesting line of work.

Inna
Andy really is a cool dude and can tell stories about sourcing good stock - that itself is like a global
episode of American Pickers

it does or at least has helped me to build a relationship with a trusted source - Andy for me and start to lay wines into the cellar for drinking later to follow thru on my prior analogy - I have 4 Tube components so I have a few and importantly a path to move along...

I wonder where they at Tube World and Vintage Tube Services get the tubes, they probably do have to chase them around the globe.
Buying a few sets in advance might be difficult and expensive but good idea if you plan to keep what you have for a long time. Kind of like having a supply of NOS blank tapes.
Aren’t we all becoming prehistoric ? It’s a good pre-history, anyway.

Like wine
some amazing stuff for $30 a bottle
andmarginal returns above that...
but drinking $300 stuff is sure fun

i think the ARC approach is prudent given installed base of products vs future sales
but rolling can still improve the product
try a Tung Sol in the power supply for a significant upgrade over factory stock....

@inna- I do my shopping from my home- known vendors that are reliable, and some I discover along the way. Tubemonger, who I hadn’t dealt with before had never used Genelex EF86 driver tubes (used in the old Quad mono amps) that were flying lead and he and his partner converted them to conventional tube pin socket type. So, I was buying a tube that i knew had never seen any play. And they were cheap. I usually use Brendon at Tube World, but some of my friends have stashes of tubes they’ve bought over the years for equipment that they might no longer even own. (the downside of being too forward looking).
It’s like buying a obscure pressing- the chances of finding it in your local brick and mortar store (and there are very few b&m tube stores) are slim- once you’ve done business with a source for a while-- and there are several, the question is simply whether they have the tube(s) you want. Priority shipment in the US- voila - a couple days max unless you are in a hurry.

some years back a fella I knew then had a pair of Amperex pinched waist 6922s he said he could sell for $600 each. I'm sure more expensive ones are around too.

Rolling fun. Chasing, not fun. Absolutely.

Although disposable items, tubes are investments too.

A true luxury is being able to retube the appliance every 8 – 12 months. It is usually NOT necessary though. With normal use, only on when a session is pending and off afterwards, several days per week, in that third year I might want to replace them.

Having that second set or a tester around will tell you exactly what to do.

Finding someone in your area with tube gear maybe both can buy into a tester and share it when neded. One can always hedge their tube bets.

If you have your Goldilocks gear, Buy more than one set ASAP. Don’t wait for them to burn out and need replacing. Buying two sets of those tubes which actually influence the audio, not each and every tube in the amp or ??? with 2017 money is better than noe set in this year and another set in say 3 or 4 years.

Soon enough Its gonna come down to buying gear that sounds great as is. No rolling required. Then of course, buying at least a couple sets of the ones that matter.

One thing which will help if possible is keeping the ambient heat lower when operating the gear. Heat is what is killing them. Not passing signals.

Various vendors have various QA standards. Some higher, some not so high. Some have several testers, some only one. Some don’t have associated gear to check them in at all.

Checking out a new vendor IMHO should be done with less pricey tubes. Just to see what the seller feels is a quality, low noise, etc., item. If possible.

The point made previously on gathering many and using a few is a really good point. Especially military com gear.

When I was in the Navy, at times we could not even order new tubes. We had to order the entire unit instead!! Whoa. Or go out into the world and buy them open purchase if we could find them.

Lastly, if the Goldilocks amp needs to be sold later, trust me selling it with NOS spares is a big plus!!

Or keep them for some other amp later on. They ain’t going down in price and if not in use, well, isn’t that what NOS means?

I’ve several barely used RCA NOS from the 50s & or 60s, Amperexs too. Even a NOS pr of Amperex PQ US 7308 whites, I’ve not used in years, and ran them only 30 or 40 hours before I sold the preamp I bought them for originally.

Buy more than what you need at the time when possible. Especially those often used by designers, like the 6DJ8 CLASS, 12AU7s, AXs, ATs, etc. any true Mullard NOS, Breyner, telefunken from W Ger., Tungsol 6L6, 5881s, etc.

beware the Telefunken dupes and Mullard Russian reissues.
Good luck.

jond, I don't know. I guess, I would gravitate towards Atma-Sphere, Lamm and possibly Allnic and VAC equipment. Ypsilon would always be out of reach, I think, except maybe used integrated. And I mean Lamm hybrid power amps.

Analogluvr, I agree, or I wouldn't even be thinking about tube equipment, especially power amps. But I also value dynamics and clarity, so all this requires very good tube electronics. 
Extra cost is fine, just within reason cost, good things are worth paying for. By doing that you also support those who make those good things. $10k used minimum for the tube equipment if your speakers are efficient enough and room not big. Until I can afford this I will stay with decent ss integrated.

@inna  You really haven't mentioned a specific tube type you are looking for but the type really does influence cost. Tons of good not terribly expensive tubes in the 6DJ8, 12ax7, 6SN7, and various other categories mostly preamp/driver tubes. You can also pay a lot for these types if you want. NOS power tubes tend to be more $$ especially DHT types. So the answer as with most things, it depends.

 And I have had good luck with Chinese power tubes as well 

Inna  I can't see your cost being that high. But who knows if I sat down and tallied mine up I may crap my pants :-) 
But solid-state is not an option for me, the things I value such as dense harmonics, presence, sounds staging is all what tube gear excels at.  Basically I find tube gear to excel at natural musicality. And then there's the cool factor!

Perhaps I would not "base" my buying decision on that but it sure would be a significant contributing factor. Even more than the cost, unless it is truly "stupid", though I would not enjoy getting used tubes instead of new and having to run around the globe just to get some of those Mullards and Telefunkens after couple of months of the hunting expedition. Tube rolling may be fun but chasing them is not.

They aren't going to get cheaper, but I'm not sure you should base your buying decision on the cost of the tubes. And agree, it is harder to find some tubes now than it was even 5 years ago. Most of those small tubes last a long time, but if they are pulls, rather than truly NIB, who knows?
I only have a few tubes in my main system that are costly- the Tele 12AX7 in my Lamm ML2- well worth the price every few years- as you said, most of the other tubes Vlad supplies, and they aren't terribly expensive. The real DR Reflektor 6 H 30 is costly- I use that in my line stage. And I roll the rectifier in the Allnic, but I regard that as a matter of fun- you can get a decent old rectifier for little money, or a lot of money (I'm using a GEC U-52 right now).
I shelled out quite a few bucks for tubes in my vintage system, but a matched quad of GEC KT 66s! Genelex EF86s? Vintage Mullard rectifiers? All worth it. 
I used to replace the Pirelli P-Zeros on my sports cars every 5 thousand miles. That wasn't cheap, but it came with the territory. (I don't even know if that tire is still highly regarded, but it was pretty sticky and wore pretty fast). 

you can find good tubes when buying used or from stock that is inconsistent.

for example, the EI or yugo 12ax7 tubes. Used to be $3 each. You could buy 20, and maybe 5 or 6 were ’perfect’ and a VERY good 12ax7. Keep the rest as useful scrap.

Trying to ace one single used tube batch buy, is a waste of time. Average it out over lots of buys. You’ll be strongly in the positive that way.

the second thing, is you needed a tube tester and the ability to hear the tube.

Specialization, or skill increase in these areas is not that difficult to come by.

You can sub in thought and effort --for money..., if you put in the effort and time. Caution: learning curves apply. There's a whole world of tube lore....

New tubes are finally coming on line and working out fairly well. They are starting to get pretty good.

But some classics are pretty well the best, like NOS Telefunken diamond bottom. When you hear them, you know it. Those are in the "f-me!" category (when you hear it).

We used to be able to pull them out of old dynaco PAS preamps, like welcome candy on a good day.

I've had very good luck with new production Chinese tubes.  The Shuguang and Psvane tubes are excellent.

I find the price well worth it for my current CD Player and previous preamps, as the tubes can last a long time, not so sure about some high power tube amps...as for the engineers picking tubes, while I trust them, they are limited to tubes available in very large quantities, not NOS tubes...

That’s exactly right, randy. Finding the cream of the crop will cost the consumer.
I have a very revealing single-gain stage preamp and needed to return some microphonic 6SN7 tubes to Vintage Tube Services. Andy replaced them and told me that he needed to test 60 tubes to find a pair that he considered high quality, (and they fetched a premium price).

the expense is mainly in picking thru 1,000 tubes to match 10 very closely

there is a video on how Audio Research turns a cheap tube into a spendy hand-picked tub - same for caps, etc.

I have a very simple solution: I buy ARC tubes for my ARC gear (!)

I let their engineers do the jobs they were assigned to do.

Then I pay them.

That's what I would want to avoid - "stupid money". Now, if , as an example, $1500 pair tubes sound best and last me for 10 years that's not what I would call that.
Would you say, generally speaking, that if I listen for 500 hours a year, all tube equipment, the cost of tubes should not exceed $1000 per year ? It would still be $10k for ten years.