hearing loss and amp choices

So I have listened to the ARC Vsi 75 for about 8 months.

It is to my taste as it is natural, resolute, deep and wide sound stage and articulated enough w/o being sterile. Instruments and voice appear "in the room" like as well as spot on timbre. It has just the right amount of distortion for my tastes to produce musical weight w/o too much loss on high end.

It is perfect for me as it relates to my taste in music reproduction much like Wild West Pizza out west in Montana had the perfectly tasting pizza I have ever had along with Gould’s Sugar House in Shelburne Falls Ma. had the best pancakes i’ve ever had.

So the ARC is as perfectly balanced as the pizza and pancakes from the above mentioned places.

 

If anyone is interested, there is a guy selling brand new Vsi 75’s for $5995.

I believe the place is called Paragon Audio

Two things:

(1) I think the comments about EQ are right on.  Consider some of the digital EQ you can get from Roon or similar. You don't have to put it through a box with lots of levers if you don't want to.

(2) Subwoofers - especially a good REL - will help add depth and dare I say warmth to the sound.  Some visceral thump is useful to re-enhance the experience.

Happy listening and good luck!

OP,

 

Congratulations. As I mentioned earlier, I love this amp. Hopefully you will as well. Look forward to hearing your impressions.

Go to a great, not good, but great audiologist, get a hearing test, and buy the top of the line Phonax hearing aid for the impaired ear.  They come with 3 band tone and volume controls plus options I’ve not even tried.  Huge difference.  It’s not the gear, it’s your ear.  I’ve suffered from Ménière’s disease since 2002 and now am down 70% in my left ear.  The Phonax allows me to enjoy my system.  I also installed a Schitt 4 band EQ unit which can boost the frequencies you are missing. Plus my line stage pre has separate volume controls for each side which helps me make further  adjustments.  My amp is a Pass X250.8, the pre is a First Sound with dual mono volume controls and dual external power supplies. 

About hearing aids I have the Widex Moment 440 and it's amazing, very happy!

 

Well that amp is going to sound great, hearing loss or not. Great choice. I have a Line Magnetic and can never go back to SS. Long live Vacuum tubes! Congratulations!

So I went ahead and popped for the Audio Research Vsi 75. I have to get a separate phono stage but that's ok. 

Brand new at Audio Connection for $7500. 

If anyone has one of these, any problem with top clearance for heat issues? I'm hoping it to fit into a 12"x19" x 19" deep space.

Absolutely wear hearing protection inside your helmet when riding. The wind noise alone will damage your hearing over time. Also, behind the ear hearing aids are the way to go, unobtrusive and no need to miniaturize as much as the in ear ones. Nobody notices mine. Finally, it's not smart to put off getting hearing aids. The ear brain connection deteriorates if impaired hearing is prolonged and it takes longer to re-establish it the longer you go. My Oticons only made my system sound MUCH better than listening with hearing loss (mostly highs, but very specific bands of frequency).

I have read these responses and at least I know I am not alone with a hearing loss problem. Work related over a 38 year period.. For the last 3 plus years I have been using the Phonak bolero with a music setting. My audiologist is the most patient person as we are constantly chasing a moving target as my hearing gradually gets worse. I just traded speakers for my Spendor classic 2/3s. Easier to listen to and I use Bel Canto E1x amp and transport. I wake up each day and its like my head is under water. I need to have my aids in for hours before listening to allow my brain to adjust to the new sound. I must adjust the level of music to not over load my hearing. Classical and unamplified music works best. A compromise that allows me to listen for a few hours at a time. The ringing never stops and it grows worse the longer I listen. I am accepting the fact that over time I will no longer be able to enjoy listening to music or much of anything else. Maybe one day the technology will come along to solve my/everyone's hearing loss but for now its touch and go. Best of luck to all of you with hearing loss and for you other guys who hear o.k. take care of your hearing as you only get 2 ears. Hearing is not eyesight which can easily be fixed with prescription glasses and all is well. It just does not work that way with hearing loss. Without my hearing aids I might as well not even cut on my system because it just sucks. 

arro, it seems ARC  is retiring the VSi 75.  I’ve seen an audiogon listing for a new one at, if I remember correctly $7595.

I only had the luck to had a dedicated room, and i coould not afford any piece of gear or any costly acoustic product...

 These bad circonstances with low income, unbeknownst to me at this time, was my luck...

I read basic acoustic and psycho-acoustic principles... I experimented with them day by day for 2 years, and 6 months intensively, because i am retired...

 The result  is ugly because i used junk to create my devices and it is not perfect...

But it gave me an understanding about what really matter in audiophile experience, and it is not the gear ALONE...It is the mechanical, electrical and acoustical embeddings control of the system...

Thats all...

 

My Sansui AU 7700 is not the best amplifier, especially compared to some design of today...

But it is certainly , if we take into account all his functions and versatility, and his organic sound one of the best deal quality/price ratio on the market...It is a mytrh for this reason...

I dont bought it by chance, i read everything for years...my luck was discovering one   10 streets  from my house at low price...

😁😊

Try some simple experiment listening in the corner you use for music, you will be surprized...

Most people are afraid to experiment because they are afraid to be wrong or experiment something with is not perfect... Trust your earseven in their present states or health status... It is you who will listen music on your system/room....But it is an ingoing process... There is no perfection in my system/room, only satisfaction at low cost with no urge to upgrade at all.... My 8 headphones dont compete, then it is enough for me...

 

I wish you the best...

@mahgister 

Well sir I am intrigued by your acoustic experiments. I understand you have a Sansui as your amp. I know some of these models are still sought after as  nonpareil in SQ to this day.

I am very limited to acoustic nuance trials as I have no dedicated listening room. More like a "listening space" within the living room. 

@asvjerry

You could be correct on that account Jerry.

@hotei and ghdprentice: 

Always wanted tubes thru these ProAcs. Had the Manley Stingray once but that piece was more ss sounding. Had a friend who lent me his Quick Silver triode mono amps. I think they just made 100 of those. Those were sublime but ran very hot.

Always wanted the Vsi75 when I first saw it. It was so compact and "together" looking. Why they made their new I 50 case work so hideous looking is beyond me or else might have sprung for that.  

What bothers me is when the 75 first came out, I saw it at $7950. Should have followed my heart then. Now it's 10K and i don't know what changed except the price. I understand it is not being made any longer. 

So on my short list is the Raven Osprey, Vsi 75, Rotel 6000RA (which is said to have a lot of Michi innards), and the Moon 700 series int. (dunno why that's at 16K. have to look inside). 

At least I will no longer consider to not being "ear worthy" for these more favored brands. Life has enough road blocks w/o imparting another one upon thyself.

@mahgister ...*G*  This Wed. for me.....'youngster'. *L*

@arro222 ...Restaurants still are a basket of noise to me, but my aids can be 'focused' so at least I can converse....to some degree of sense. ;)

I've tinnitus as well, loud machines and loud music brought me down.  And with what you've experienced of late likely did a tap dance on the way your mind is 'listening' for you.

At this point, anything that works for you is a good thing. *S*

Good luck & happy hunting, J 

@arro222 have you actually heard/noticed a significantly degraded sound quality? You mention 4000hz as a demarcation … ALL fundamentals live below that, as well as a lot of harmonics (for voices, and instruments whose fundamentals top out considerably lower). Hearing those missing harmonics through just one ear may not be making much of a negative impact.

also to note.....as you hear less your brain gets inured to those sounds....and you perceive less.   A viscous circle.   Go get hearing aids.

@hotei 

From the first time I heard theVSi75 i was mesmerized. It has such a classic natural musical quality… and for the money… what a screaming deal. Wonderful sounding piece of equipment!

I’m 69 and played in a band for 12 years with the drummer on my right side.  Needless to say I have some tinnitus in my right ear.  I have always had tube amps.  I treated myself to a ARC VSi75 and cannot be happier.  I find it to have all around great sound.  Well balanced with nothing overly boosted.  I think this would work well for you.  Of course speakers are probably the most critical choice.

i will be 71 years old in few weeks...

Probably my hearing is not what i had younger... 😁😊

Nevermind, i tuned my room by ears...( 100 Helmholtz resonators) And younger i would not have been able to do it because of a lack of attention and lack of confidence in myself...

Dont mind about any lost of hearing, especially if it is not a big one loss...

People who feel that sound impressions are only figure out by measured Hertz frequencies capabilities test are ignorant...

The brain like say bigtwin is the organ of perception about the sound not only the ears isolated from him:

I’ve lived all my adult life with about 50% hearing loss in my right ear. Scar tissue from chronic ear aches as a child. My brain doesn’t recognize the loss.

And anyway music is certainly not just sound...

Remember that some people with full hearing are unable to figure out this truth at all...

From some cars passing in our streets we know by experience that some people really think that music is perceived by the body mainly, especially bass frequencies... They are not wrong at all but.... 😁😊

 

«We hear meaning and dont call that an illusion»-Anonymus audiologist playing violin

 

 

 

 

 

@bigtwin

I dunno. My amp tanked months before that.

You do raise a point. I thought the highly articulated amp sterile even then and I’m sure my hearing didn’t go south just now. The only reason I had the hearing test in the first place is to have ruled out why i was feeling dizzy w no blood pressure issues. So they gave me the mri to rule out tumor and then the subsequent hearing test. They think it was a residual of covid I had back in Nov. calling it some kind of nerve edema. Still haven’t gotten full taste and smell as yet.

Coming to conclusion sometimes takes the plethora of contributors for the op to come to meaning.

Of course the brain is the "it" of hearing. My tinnitus is not an ear issue as much as a brain short circuit.

I will go forth and assimilate to the directions and suggestions this thread has provided.

Thank you

@arro222 

I've lived all my adult life with about 50% hearing loss in my right ear.  Scar tissue from chronic ear aches as a child.  My brain doesn't recognize the loss.  I hear perfect stereo image and enjoy my sytem fully.  I only notice the loss if I plug my left ear.  If you hear the music, just enjoy it.  Did you feel you were missing anything before they told you there was a hearing loss?  The brain is a wonderful thing and will compensate for so many issues.

Critical listening to music (or what us audiophiles enjoy with our audio gear) and having a known hearing loss in one ear is like driving a Ferrari with 1 flat tire. Yeah you can change the suspension on one side or pick flatter roads to drive the car on...but in the end the tire is the real problem and you will not realize the full potential of the Ferrari. I bought Resound GN hearing aids and it was the best improvement to my audio system in years

My two cents.

@ secretguy...Lol and wonder how many other "secrets" you may have missed.

I was going to get hearing aids, but the Dr. said I would be able to hear my wife better.

First of all I am NOT changing out my system. My integrated suffered a catastrophic failure.

I posed the question to help flavor my next purchase of an amp. I am not at the stage for aids as yet or so told to me or I should say unless i am immersed in certain situations such as a crowded restaurant, but I am interested in terms of what possible alterations of my previous sound tastes, may have occurred with these new to me findings.

To wit: I used to feel the highly articulated, detailed sq of certain amps as "sterile". Is that still in evidence I ask myself? Unfortunately, the jaunt to the next audio salon that used to be an hour ride round trip, has now turned into a 6 hour journey so I would have liked at least a "clue" (before I venture into this realm) as to what effects in personal preferences may have occurred for others.

I appreciate all the suggestions and agree with many of the premises. I know what I ask is rather a "drill down" that may be too specific. But it has caused me to wonder, nonetheless, of what others have experienced in this regard that may have altered their own sound appreciations.

So here is what i’ve learned so far: 1. I should consider an amp w tone controls. 2. Unfortunately, there is not much to do with the room. I live in a log home with wooden walls, carpet and drapery. 3. There may be minimal difference and i should hear a bunch. 4. There are differences attributed to acquired hearing aids. 5. Do not take two cross country trips on motorcycles without hearing protection beyond what a padded helmet provides.

I guess it will be interesting to discover what I disdained before, becomes more appreciable to me now.

 

 

arro222, there's a difference between having a frequency related notch and having a 20-25% hearing loss in the ear in question. Very many people encounter age related loss between 2 and 4KHz - it really depends on how severe it is. Also, what is the performance of your other ear like?

As has been suggested above, changing your system is not the way to go. An equalizer is worth experimenting with or ultimately hearing aids if the problem is really severe.

hi ,everybody,i am 68 now ,i use hearing aids from phonac paradise they brought back my music up to 9600 hz  .Here in France the top ones from phonak ,the paradise,  costs about 4000$ for a pair ,to suit your hearing you must choose the right audiologist very very carefully too ,because he is the one who adjusts the aids to what you were missing (on 16 different frequencies for the most accurate model) ,he musts take his  time to receive you for tests 3 or 4 times at least during  the first 6 months .The first  15 days, you must get used to the aids ,then you will  rediscover your music with the subtilities you even forgot ,the birds outside and so on .Please consider this as a  friendly advice and don't waste time and money in a new system .Invest in a (only)best  hearing aid,( i tried different ones and it is absolutly worth it)as you would for amp and speakers .I don't know if it is possible to have one for a month  trial where you live but if i was totally reluctant even to the idea before the trial  i am know and since 2 years so happy with it .

@arro222 ,

 I’m not sure if you mentioned a price you would be willing to pay, but finding an amp with a balance control would be the place I’d start.

It won't matter what sort of amp you've opted for if you are the problem.

If you work with the audiologist who is fitting your aids, their response curve can be adjusted to your needs and/or preferences.

Mine can be adjusted without a trip back to the office, btw. You could potentially have a test record or app running concurrently to ’dial yourself in’, so to speak.

Given that many here spend more on their systems than a good pair of aids, what’s the point if the last 1" from ear to gray matter is the most compromised?

Think of them as a good pair of headphones you wear all day.

Surprised me what I’d been missing just being outside...I could hear birdsong again....

Priceless, that...

Not sure what you call cheap hearing amplifiers from Costco ?  Costco  ( not a member) but I am sure has varying grades. Hearing aids from audiologists have insane mark ups, sure, you get some support, but $4k to $6k for that support. The fact is, you need a good hearing test, then find a retailer or on line source to sell you your hearing aids according to the test. I am on my 3rd set now, currently Phonak Boleros, and from the first set on was astonished at what I had been missing.  If you need service you will find some so called audiologists that will not help, they have a racket going and hate to lose it. First question they ask is "Where did you buy?"   If not from them they will refuse to help, even if you are willing to pay.

Expensive hearing aids from an audiologist are very different from cheap hearing amplifiers at Costco or wherever.

I use in-ear hearing aids for TV, music, and even headphones. Life was so vastly improved (and music started sounding so much better) when I started wearing hearing aids about 15 years ago. Glasses help the vision-challenged, hearing aids help the hearing-challenged - it's all good.... 

I have to agree with xcool, a great thread and informative. To the OP's original question, are high end amps a waste of money if you have hearing loss, my experience says no. I developed tinnitus in 2011 and went to an audiologist who measured my hearing. Other than the high frequency loss from old age, I have a moderate loss at lower frequencies (around the typical vocal range). Not severe enough to "require"' hearing aids but easily measurable.

Both of my 25 year old amplifiers quit last year so I made an upgrade when I purchased new this year. I could hear the difference, better detail and bass are obvious even with my somewhat defective hearing. So, for me, the extra expense was well worth it.

Jim S.

Honestly this has been the most informative thread for me ever almost here. I am near the end of litigation with work to cover hearing loss and of course in the ensuing discussions with Dr.'s et al. my info has been sold and I have been inundated with offers and appointments for hearing aids- real true info has been hard to come by such as cost of good tech, brand names to check out and etc. ; as for my listening habits for 2 channel; I just turn it up. Tho currently I just use some Harbeth 30.1's (love em) and a Nova 300 (passable) or headphones(Grado GH2). Anyway, thanks again y'all and especially curtdr for what sounds like some news I can use.

This is a great thread.  I've been thinking about starting a similar discussion.   I too have some hearing loss and tinnitus, more so on my left ear.   I use my 2 separate gain controls on my preamp to boost the left channel.   For my 5.1 HT, I crank up the center channel so I can hear the dialogs better.

I'm on the borderline in terms of needing a hearing aid, but I think I will eventually.  I'm always curious if hearing aids will or will not affect the perceived sound quality coming out of your stereo system.  There seems to be some conflicting experiences here.  

So whoever is reading this, please continue to chime in with your experience if you use hearing aids regularly for your daily routine,  do you keep them on for music or remove them?  and if you use if for music, do you find that it degrades or enhances your music listening experience?  If you find it enhances your experience, please let us know which brand/model hearing aid do you use.

Anyway, don't mean to change the subject here.  Please do help out OP on his question on Amp choices.  Thanks.

 

For sure you are also right...

It is relative to the specific individual and the level of impairment...

And hearing aids with an acoustically tuned room by the user himself and for himself  with his hearing aids in place  will be optimal...

Curtdr is absolutely correct! I have fairly compromised hearing that happens to everyone in my family. The biggest improvement in my system was a pair of Oticon hearing aids. I have no idea why so many are so reluctant and advocate trying to tune your system to your hearing loss. What a waste of time and money.Hearing aids are programmable and your hearing will probably change over time. It pains me to see these threads when the answer is so obvious, just try it!

Curtdr is absolutely correct! I have fairly compromised hearing that happens to everyone in my family. The biggest improvement in my system was a pair of Oticon hearing aids. I have no idea why so many are so reluctant and advocate trying to tune your system to your hearing loss. What a waste of time and money.Hearing aids are programmable and your hearing will probably change over time. It pains me to see these threads when the answer is so obvious, just try it!

I will not repeat this excellent advice from ghdprentice....I will only add this...

If you own a dedicated room work with basic acoustic/psycho-acoustic principle...This work marvel for me...Use your "impaired" ears to tune the room for what you are able to hear yourself and enjoy about timbre and imaging ...

My best wish for you in this journey....

Appreciate of music through a high end system has little to do with the details of your actually hearing specs unless they are severely compromised. Yours are not. Ignore it.

My hearing has always been compromised compared to my partner… most of us are… females have better hearing. I have taken her to most major auditions of equipment over the decades… she always had an opinion… “that sounds better… that hurts my ears.” But she always differs to my deep knowledge of the details and differences.

The only thing you need is a balance control. Forget about the measurements, work towards a system that makes you happy.

Oh boy. Good topic. I can’t hear anything above 8k and I have tinnitus, but that doesn’t stop me from really enjoying music. I have several things to say about what has been said so far:

• Hearing aids: most of them are truly junk. They, and audiologists, focus on boosting perception of the human voice - all else be damned including the quality of that sound. If you think bad audio sounds bad, you haven’t heard bad yet. I have two pairs ($6000 and $6500 - one is Phonak Audeo) sitting in a drawer because they are irritating at best, and listening to music with them is like going back into the stone age of solid state music repro (think bad transistor radio in 1962). And if you have tinnitus like I do, they just aggravate the hell out of it. I am aware of Widex but have not been able to listen to them yet. Maybe....

• Audio systems: I guess equalizers might be helpful, but I find that even with my hearing loss I am easily able to discern the quality of gear and recording quality without making adjustments like that. A few specifics: The top tier series of Fyne speakers have a presence control that includes your hearing loss frequencies, though I keep mine at slightly minus of neutral. GaN based amplifiers are very clean in the upper mid to high frequencies which make it easier to perceive (avoid Pass and the like). Very high resolution gear, like ARC preamps, are also helpful (I have a REF 6SE on order). Yes, tubes!

Bottom line for me is I really enjoy quality music reproduction in spite of my hearing problems. Hope this helps.

Really think you are looking at this the wrong way.  You need equalization to help you.  Either a miniDSP or something with Roon to allow you to boost the relevant frequencies.  No amp /cable combination will do this for you alone.

You might be really happy with Dali speakers though, which have market bumps up top.

This one is so easy. If your right ear has the problem, turn your head so it faces the left speaker.  Shazam!  Works for me.

@ larryro2

you said "hearing aids do not correct for the loss  - they make things louder"

This is an absolutely false statement these days when it comes to the high-quality aids.  Cheap ones, maybe, but the best are extremely effective at correcting... they do not just make things louder.

The best possible amplifier you can get for hearing loss is a set of the amazing new hearing aids that are now available.  I urge you, and anyone suspecting loss, to investigate this matter.  The best of the new devices are simply astonishing pieces of micro technology.  

They are customizable to your individual hearing profile, each individual ear.  So the high frequencies or whatever is needed can be brought up, (though some highs you can never regain) similar to a graphic equalizer or room correction software, and leave whatever is whole alone.  Think of it as laser eye surgery for the ears... though it's not surgery.  

They are light and inconspicuous, far moreso than eyeglasses.  

And the sound is incredible and natural.  The sound is actually MORE natural than trying to hear through diminished ears because the devices regain the natural sounds that you are otherwise missing.  Furthermore, they have the side benefit of helping diminish or eliminate that annoying tinnitus...  

You might not really realize what you've been missing.  Far from ruining your audio experience, the devices will be an absolutely critical component in the chain; once you hear through the best, you won't want to go back, and you may find yourself waxing evangelical.  

I was very concerned, downright depressed, when I realized I ought get some (I got the Phonak Paradise T9- waterproof), and thought they'd ruin my audiophile experience... FAR FROM IT.  I'm astonished and my audio systems suddenly sprung back to life as I recaptured that high frequency magic... I hear better now than I have for decades; I never even knew what I was missing.

These are not your grandpa's or daddy's aids, unless your daddy is up to date.  Just in the last couple years, the tech has made exponential gains and the best ones are also firmware updatable as the tech continues to evolve (but the best ones are so good now, there's no reason to wait).

They will have more benefits for your audio experience, and your life overall, than any other new amplifier could even possibly approach, no matter how much you spend on the amp.  Get your hearing right FIRST, and then investigate other new components if you even want to because your old components will sound new or better than new with your new ears... wait on any other upgrade... get yourself right first... 

Investigate Widex Moment (a favorite among MUSICIANS, including for use in the studio...) and the Phonak Audeo Paradise... The Paradise is a Swiss-made device coupled with Silicon Valley computer tech...

Get referrals to the BEST audiologist that you can possibly find.

I think you will be amazed and utterly delighted.  

I am 73 and have had hearing aids for over 15 years. I am on my third set of aids. These are over the ear and highly programmable by me through my iPhone. I also have a TV device that allows me to listen through the aids. As far as my stereo system, I can adjust the tone controls on my McIntosh preamp as needed. My hearing loss is mostly high frequency in both ears coupled with very severe tinnitus. FWIW.

I can't recommend the Anthem STR highly enough. As someone who also has loss in one ear, it gives lots of flexibility to compensate. And it just sounds wonderful. Huge soundstage (much better than the tube amp it replaced.).

Amused at comments about the balance settings .  If you have hearing loss in your right ear boosting the signal to the right speaker will only mean that the stereo signal to that speaker will be louder, you still will not hear the left channel any better. 

I have Phonak aids that have different channels for conversation, music and crowded places. The music setting amplifies all frequencies according to my hearing loss so I can hear a big improvement in my music listening. It may change the sound , I do not know, but I certainly hear the highs and mids I was missing.

audio and life advice,,,,dont focus on the negative, focus on the positive....identify what sounds good to you, no on what you "think" you might be missing....though high frequencies do indeed have importance, if you understand music and voice, little primary frequencies are above your area of deficiency, only overtones....much of the enjoyment of good hifi still remains, so audition, and chose what sounds good to you....life goes on!!

Get a quality hearing aid. It will help you in the other thousands of situations you will be in, outside of listening to music. Trust me!

First 

hearing loss is not measured in %!

Hearing loss ,as a function of frequency , is displayed on an audiogram and expressed in a decibel value whereas zero decibels is normal hearing sensitivity .

Thus right or left ear responses that are between 0 to 15dBHl are WNL. Any deviation from that range expresses hearing loss.

Hearing loss is categorical from mild to moderate to sever to profound!

mild is from approximately 20-45, moderate 45-65, severe 65-85 and profound above 90dBHL. 
It is difficult to conclude the % what one will 

miss !

Hearing aids do not correct for the loss-they make things louder 

clarity is not guaranteed with amplification!

the advice to try different systems -good advice and get what seems helpful.

Recall, making things louder to an impaired ear may produce distortion with or without amplification.

Personally I have S/N hearing loss bilaterally along with constant tinnitus. For me louder is distorted and too soft is not clear.

My major use of HIFI is to mask the tinnitus ,but I do enjoy what I hear-

Not all sounds good!

nevertheless it is a challenge!

 

 

 

 

 

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