Has anyone made the jump to $uper High end and were disappointed?
I'm talking $50,000 and higher amps, speakers, cablesetc. I know there is excellent sounding gear from $100 to infinity (much is system dependent, room, etc). However, just curious if someone made the leap and deep down realize the "expected" sound quality jump was not as much as the price jump. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to make that jump. However, looking at another forum's thread about price point of diminishing returns got me wondering if anyone had buyers remorse. It's not easy to just "flip" a super high priced component.
People who are really up in rarified air don't take the time to post on audiogon. ON the other hand, we (here on audiogon) are a group made of individuals who place importance on value at their respective price points/budgets.
Yep, "believe yourself. And your ears." After all, you are the one who will
pay your hard-earned $$ for that high end rig. And of course you'll be the one listening to it so you might as well buy something you really like.
I don't know if what I have is super high end, I have about 75k in my system but I have to say for me it is worth every penny. I am very happy with the sound. Most of my equipment is used from Audiogon and US Audiomart so if you purchased it at full retail it would probably be worth closer to 125K to 150K but no regrets. It sounds just amazing. Like many of the people who responded, there are diminishing returns. To get an incremental improvement it might cost significantly more but if you have the scratch and love the hobby, it is worth it in my opinion.
Randy-11, I did just that but did you know that granite attracts lightning? I would disagree that Quads and Harbeth are the best $$ can buy. I would also disagree that the loudspeaker is the most expensive piece of equipment you purchase. Quads are really nice but far from the best IMO. you need to look at the total synergy of the system. Not all cheap amps, even with the so-called vendor specs, are equal to more expensive amps with the same ratings. I have had Yamaha and onkyo ht amps putting out 140 watts and using my older Totem mani 2’s that needed power, an equivalent Classe or McIntosh amp blew away the sound of the Yamaha or Onkyo. say you have $20k for a complete system, how much would you spend on speakers when you know you will have to buy an amp, preamp, phono preamp, turntable, tonearm, cartridge, external dad, streamer/cdp, and cables to hook everything up. That $20k doesn’t go very far. You can buy the best speakers, but if you compromise on the amp (not enough power for example), or compromise on the tt setup or dac, then the best sound quality you will get is from your weakest link.
Yes, trust your ears and have a common sense. But also, especially when considering a big upgrade, try to get another pair of good ears. That person might have different preferences so it may complicate the audition but in the end would probably help more than not. My friend musician prefers electrostatic sound, I don’t. We can argue but what we hear is very close, only his hearing is better. But I am no punk b-tch either.
I have listened to multiple $500K systems. My usual reaction is ho hum. They sound good but my "ah ha" moment is how little you need to spend to get excellent sound! Careful matching can create great results in the $10k - $50k range.
I’ve got 3 audio systems to listen and compare, ranging from my car (Acura 2004 TL) to a Bose Computer setup and my home “Audiophile” System....around $40,000+/- and growing rapidly.
I enjoy all 3 of them, almost equally. Music 🎶 moves me when it’s really good and well recorded so I can enjoy it regardless of the quality or the sophistication of whatever I happen to be listening on at the time. Its the music, not the equipment we should be enjoying. 👍
Audiophiles enjoy the sound as much as music. $10k new will not get you anywhere close to great sound even in a small room and one source. $50k new is possible in small and medium size room but tough. That said, $10k system with one source can sound pretty good in smaller room. Great means great in my vocabulary.
I totally agree with Pokey 77 and bmontani. Through the years i haved been climbing up the ladder. Had some nice equipment that i traded in, with some cash added and got a even better equipment/sound. Always tried to find the weak spot in the chain and the best gear for the money awailebel. About 20 years ago the cabels became real components and the level raised substancial, then the decoupling and all the room treatments etcappeared. The tweaks have raised the bar so high that i often think its much better in my musicroom, than real concerts (not acoustical ones). In the beginning i was analysing the soundstage but at a point it became much more emotional and here is is were the ultra highend stuff really makes sence to me. I can also lisen to a low level system but at a very low volume and not for so long time. In order to get a ultra highend system where you have a concert in front of you, there are so many things( in fact everything) you need to adress. Its my expirience that you never get a superb sound at a show because there are so many thing you cannot control. It takes years of hard work to reach a ultra high level and today i would say the tweaks is 50% of the result. The rest is split between the music material and the hardware. Beleave your ears and emotions or ask your wife. I have never regreat using a huge sum on my audio/music life but i almost only buy used gear as my budget is limited. If a component dosent perform well, try another. Nice designd and handmade gear can always sold again. Worst deal ever: was a pair of Halcro DM 68 amps, they arent making music in my ears. I tried them and sold them quickly again but they thought me a lot about musical feeling. Best deal are the 2LP 45RPM's from the late 50's. Biggest problem, is the lack of posibillityes to try equipment before buying it. Dealers are worth giving a higher price if they give a proper service.
I've heard a couple of so called super high end systems and I didn't like most of them. The biggest sin was bloated soundstage, bloated images, singers 3m (10 ft) high and so on. No sense of realism at all. I liked MBL systems. I have a modest system and enjoy it better then most of the super systems.
I don’t want to hijack this thread, but I have a question about what type of music folks listen to on their high end systems. Here is the basis of that question: with just a few limited exceptions, rock music is already amplified through electronics and speakers even when you hear it live. So what is the goal with audiophile gear if rock music is your primary choice for music? I mean, is it to reproduce the electronics at the venue? The electronics in the studio?
This all makes more sense to me when one is a fan of classical, jazz, acoustic, other forms of music where striving for realistic electronic reproduction at least has a theoretically reachable objective of reproducing the sound of a live non-electronic instrument.
I listen to enough jazz and other forms of music where there is an acoustic or at least not re-reproduced and re-amplified element that choosing and upgrading gear has some relevance to trying to reproduce the sound of an instrument.
But I still mostly listen to rock, and for me, with rock music, the objective is detail, combined either with a sweet or pretty sound or a powerful, slam sound, depending on the type of rock. I want it to move me emotionally, and the choice of what direction it should move me depends on the mix of mood and choice of rock music style.
The point is, yes, I get that whatever sounds good to someone is valid because there is no objective standard here whatsoever. But I would posit that diminishing marginal returns probably hit much lower in price point if rock is your music of choice, or at least you are chasing after tiny little tweaks, relative to types of music where reproducing the sound of an instrument, rather than reproducing the sound of an electronic pickup and a Marshall stack, is the goal.
@jji666 - fair point, and the conventional wisdom is that speakers and audio systems in general should be genre agnostic... The presentation will be enhanced by a better system in my estimation. I use horns in my main system and though those aren’t necessarily more expensive than dynamic speakers, they do a marvelous job in dynamic swings- (the so-called "jump" factor). I play rock on my vintage Quad ESLs too, and they give a different perspective without the dynamics, sheer volume or scale (though as a smaller portrait in miniature they can sound fabulous with well recorded rock). We attended the King Crimson show in Austin a few nights ago, and it was fun to take in the latest live recording on LP- the Toronto 2016 recordings for a morning after "hair of the dog." No way could I reproduce the sheer volume and sock of all three drum kits and the depth of some of the synth and bass guitar sounds with all of the power of a 2900 seat auditorium in my comparatively smaller listening room, but it sounded pretty good. (It’s a good live recording too). All the criteria used to differentiate sound quality applies, at least to my ears- yes, I use real instruments as a reference and want to evaluate a system hearing a grand piano-- often a very difficult instrument to record and reproduce faithfully--but much of what I listen to--early post psych/pre-prog folk and hard rock sounds wonderful on system capable of high quality reproduction. The fault often isn’t even the amplified v. acoustic instruments; to me, the shortcomings in a lot of popular music have to do with the quality of the recording. The era I’m fond of-- late ’60s, very early ’70s- was typically fewer tracks, often less outboard processing and in many cases, less overdubbing. (Not to say that the studio concoctions in the ’70s sound bad when the engineer because auteur rather than just recordist, but the risk is greater when the studio wizardry falls flat). The bands also didn’t have the crutch of being able to punch in a better take- they could and often did play through the whole song in a take and that can sound better than some Franken-recording sewn together from parts. You can hear the room, the position of the instruments and get a better sense of the stage if recorded that way (and not manipulated to hell and back in mixing and other post-production "magic.") And, without the ability to do 100 takes and stitch together a "perfect" recording from multiple takes and overdubs, the natural acoustic, such that it is, along with bleed through, gives a coherence to the sound that is equally telling. The other reality for me is that I’m not listening to audiophile recordings. Some just aren’t great sounding. And there, no matter how good or bad the system, it isn’t going to WOW you with sonics- the goosebumps come from the composition and performance. The question -- I guess it should be rhetorical-- is how much one limits their listening by the sonic quality of the recordings. I can’t live on a diet of audiophile warhorses, and like all kinds of stuff, from pop to proto-metal to hard psych as well as some of the more adventurous material that defies genre.
I dare say not one person here were they to hit the power ball some weekend, that they wouldn’t rush out and buy some ridiculously high ticket gear once the funds were made available .
So merely for the purposes of ‘closure’ , if everyone wants to start a fund so I can get out there, buy a lot of stuff and then report back, I’m all in on being the lab monkey for that project! Really! I would not mind it at all.
I think until that happens enmasse’, or at least by me, the demographic being sought for feedback on this topic will remain silent.
So far I’ve seen one post saying ‘no regrets’ in the ultra high end shell game. Albeit there was no quantification or qualification on the gear acquired or removed.
As one poster previously said, folks with uber ultra dough just don’t knock about these forums much. Apparently not.
For the rest of us, it is all about what we hear, prefer and desire, and perhaps a few other insidious out of whack character traits which seem far more compeling.
Plain boredom can fuel change, it ain’t always about pursuing excellence..
I once saw a pair of Avalong idolons someone had hand painted white. Not a great job either. Their price however at that point was very attractive as near giveaways. The folks who traded them in were quite wealthy and had other obvious priorities when it came to music, ala, ‘décor’. For the man to keep them his wife made him paint them.
To say ONLY speakers or any other single item is the key is flatly ridiculous.
It takes no time at all and darn little investment to begin with just popular speakers $3 to $5K or less perhaps, and start migrating in and out pieces to see what is different and what is ‘subjectively’ better, or not. Unless, of course one is either deaf, brain dead, or can not be honest appraising the results.
Why more expensive? Not every thing made is made the same way, or with the same items, or in the same fashion, an therefore in degrees, sounds unlike the rest.
the rig I’ve put the most money and time into attending to synergy gives the greatest involvement and resolution, or illusions of reality. All the talk of measurements in the world will not deter me from knowing experience, and money do matter in achieving loftier heights of musical presentations because I have like many others, financial limits. Without any limits I tend to think I’d be a lot more capricious with audio gear, and at times, esthetics alone could be a deciding factor.
Ssynergy’ not speakers is the biggest most expensive cost as it involves time, experience and investigation with equipment, rooms and the associated lists thereafter are varied and lengthy.
If one has not yet discovered, in this past time, there is absolutely no, ‘one size fits all’ anything.
I’ve heard as have other posters here, rigs I would not buy with someone else’ money. All about details and not about the music. Too dry. Too wet. Too…. ? and sure, too expensive to justify getting.
Not having great knowledge is easy to overcome. It slows one down but won’t usually stop or hurt them too much. What I think I know can be even more of a pitfall. What bites me on the butt everytime however, is those things I know which simply are not so.
Thus far the axiom “Everything matters” still has merit as applied to building an outstanding audio rig. I doubt those with bottomless pockets feel anywhere near as strongly on this ideology for their’s is the freedom to move about at will experiencing various degrees of cool, great, and beyond with regret or remorse playing inconsequential roles.
But again, I’m certainly willing to find out for sure if anyone wants to start up a Patrion account I can draw from!
10,000 members at $10 each, every month, yep, should take no time at all to find out exactly where the demon of diminishing returns lives in the more than $50K item shelves.
During the past year I have upgraded both my headphone system and my main speaker system. The total price for the headphone rig (dac, amp, headphones was <$1000 and the sound is incredible. I think the law of diminishing returns would kick in big time beyond that price point. The same could be said about my main system <$5000.
OK, time for me to fess up. Someone asked a little while ago if anyone went the opposite direction from upgrading to a super high end system. Guilty as charged.
Two years ago I had a rather good but not terribly expensive headphone system with pure tube Woo Audio headphone Amp with all NOS Tung Sol and Sylvania tubes, a VERY modded Oppo DC player, including the Linear Power Supply mod, Analysis Plus ICs and Power Cord and Nordost Blue Heaven power cord. Oh, two count em Herbies tube dampers per tube for total of 6. I used cryo’d, naked Sennheiswr 600s with Stephan Arts cabling with that system.
Since then, just for experimentation, I went to a much simpler system based around a Sony Walkman portable CD player and Sony Walkman cassette player with Grado SR-60 headphones. I have no power cords, no interconnects and no speaker cables. I also have no power transformers, no grounding issues (since I dint have a ground), no fuses, no house AC, no big honking capacitors, no digital cable. I already got out of ye olde room acoustics game with the last system. No more teacher’s dirty looks. 😜
Interesting thread. I will weigh in (but with massive caveats in the TL;DR section)
- My end is low high-end compared to one with a $50K amps (I surmise a $50K amp probably means $100-$200k or greater systems). I.e. my end in $ is just a bit more than that of a $50K+ amp in total.
Before shooting arrows at me, please read the TL;DR section after the regret/non-regrets - OK - hopefully that makes sense.
Regrets: (1) I regret experimenting with ~ $10K of digital amps except my modded NuPrime st-10 (home office use only). They are cool (temp wise and tech wise), but my tube and SS amp are better suited to my ears and system. Fortunately, they resold OK. (2) I regret not getting a tube amp sooner - its not a panacea, and for some music I do goto my very fine sounding SS amp. But for a lot of my vinyl classical music - its the thing... (3) I regret holding on to my prior gen speakers and not getting them mfg upgraded sooner. they are quite amazing now. And for TVM - a great value. (4) I regret a slew of cheaper phono cartridges before I found a relatively expensive, well regarded, high-end cartridge (ZYX Universe II) wow. Made a bigger difference than my $10K table over the prior $3k table.
On the fence: - Power conditioning. Most of the benefit came from careful power grounding (see #4 below). I have not noticed any change in musical parameters - although I tend to feel its a bit cleaner / tighter sound all around - but hardly...
To be balanced, a couple of non-regrets: (1) Went with well regarded modest cables - mild change to overall system, not worth the $ but happy not to have spent $$$$. I did put in one set of $$ cables - it was meh. At least for me, cables do change things around a bit in what I hear (I'm sure there are theories re: signal noise due to grain boundaries, magic impedance matching, cold-fusion-electrons and so on). However, the value for cable $ going to $$$$ has been better spent elsewhere - if not just for having more $ for music itself (i.e. real-record cleaning machine, vinyl and HDtracks...) (2) Tube pre - VTL is great (3) Having both a tube and SS amp. I found one of each type I can listen all day to. And yes, my tube has a bit more neutrality than some tube, and my SS has a bit more sweetness than some SS. The SS rocks better - but works for all. The tube is for vinyl classical music - but works for all. (4) Having spent about a day working out the safe and correct grounding scheme between all equipment down to their power sources - keeping to a "star" as much as possible for the power, and carefully checking which equipment induces noise/hum - and checking the condition of the grounding and so on. I have no "removed" pins, no unsafe grounds and so on. I have no hum nor noise from mains or induced either...
TL;DR Section:
The long-list of caveats:
- I've dealt with $800 up to my current system intimately - I've heard up to $100k+ systems, but not in a home - only at a high-end dealer (and more than one didn't seem right to me - probably their setup, but certainly dissuaded me from some massive purchase) - I've always had a mental "guide" for myself (please - this is only my rule, not a recommendation to anyone) I want to keep my audiophile equipment urge to something like low-single-digits % of net-worth - not much more. The one time I broke that was when I was in my late 20's and bought speakers well above my pay-grade - and kept them for 20 years. - Another mental guide - if I bought a single component (aka speaker, amp) I had to promise myself that for the $ I spent, I might be mad, but I could not be really-sad if I lost that $ to a disaster. I.e. no risking a house payment, kids college fund and so on if I lost that $. - I don't sell the last component till I'm OK with the new. In reality, I still have more than 50% of my last 2 generations of components. And I had my last generation speaker upgraded by the Mfg - and it now sounds great in a our cabin in the woods. - I don't feel I have golden ears. I have played in orchestras, still play piano, like a mix from classical to rock, notice the difference from vinyl from digital (and not just the noise aspect), notice the difference of a tube chain vs a SS chain (actual system experience), sometimes notice the difference phase-inversion can make for some recordings - Still get fooled by a change-sometimes-sounds-better-initially syndrome. Only to realize after a few weeks of listening that going back to the old setup "sounds better" again (and later change again to sound better :). This is mostly from power and signal cable changes. - I have had people listen to the system who have much much better systems and heard much much more equipment. They tend to say "sounds good", "you could improve a few things, but for the money pretty good". We tend to find the system is: Not as "big" dynamically as the best. Very good on vocals, but not the bees knees on "in your face" projection. Good bass floor, tuneful bass but not a room shaker. Stage is about 1 foot wider than the outside of the speakers (set about 9 ft apart, sitting about 9 ft away) - good not great. Spatial resolution is in the 1-2 cm range, not millimeters (again good, not great). Very even tempered up and down the frequency range - I'd say its one area this system is excellent at, and favors my ears and listening preferences. Not razor edgy, not blurred - not super sweet, but not super airy - not as tight as a steel wire, but not bloated - Good balance for these attributes.
FYI: System inventory today (about 75% are used purchases which kept $ spent much lower than retail): - Revel Ultima Salon 2 - VTL 7.5 mk ii using psvane 12AU7 (did some NOS and modern comparisons, and have about 12 pairs of different 12AU7 in my collection - some are meh, some I'm saving ...) - Ayre DPS turntable - Ayre P-5xe phono preamp - ZYX Universe II cartridge - NAD M50/M52 music server and DAC - Wells Audio Innamorata SS amp [PS: This is a very very very fine SS amp - not crazy expensive. I had someone unsell me from a $20K amp to look at this one. I bought straight from Jeff Wells the owner. If you are looking to spend ~$7K on an SS amp that kicks way above its $, this is it.) - Primaluna HP power amp (KT150 tubes) - people say this is lush with the EL34 (I have a set) - but in my system and room, this works out the best balance of tone, dynamics, prat and all that - Analysis plus through out the system except: JPS superconductor from pre to tube amp - An odd mix of power supply. We have voltage sags due to "power days" so I do have my outlet "fronted" by a APC HT15. It feeds an Audience AR6. That feeds all the equipment with the help of a Shunyata power distribution strip (no NR, just nice a shiny looking). Current heavy devices straight to AR6. Light current devices into the power strip. - Hannl record cleaning machine (old style)
I listen to what I like regardless of the recording quality, and in most cases it is not good to various degree. Yet, even the worst of them sound a little better with each small upgrade. At the same time you hear better recordings’ flaws as well. As for the tailoring your system, especially speakers, to the kind of music you mostly listen to, in reality I think you have to unless perhaps it is an absolute super high end, whatever it is. Though I listen to some jazzrock, mostly it’s various acoustic music including vocal. For rock I would choose very different speakers, Pink Floyd plays okay, though. I also think that no super high end set-up can be called that without top open reel deck as a source, in addition to turntable.
For most of us, I think it may take a good 2 or 3 decades of familiarizing yourself with the market in this hobby to get to a reliably good enough level of experience with which you can feel good about your chances of success at downsizing and getting away with it. It takes that long for most of us to become familiar with the width and depth of the market and it may not come at all unless you’ve made a number of purchases, for both good And ill, and have lived with the results for a long enough while.
But, just remember: having gone down the slippery slope, every time some audiophile proclaims their rallying cry in print that the paying of the exorbitant prices is ’unquestionably’ the only way to go, there’s another manufacturer that says to themselves: "See that? More proof that if I introduce a new product to the market at a temptingly competitive price that I know I can still make a profit at, then I know it won’t be taken seriously by anyone unless I price it 2-4 time higher". This is how the industry is pricing itself out of existence.
Of course, the original problem was created by the makers, pressuring us whenever possible in subtle and in not-so-subtle ways to spend more than last time. But, it’s a runaway train and about everybody is at fault. I would suppose the only sane thing to do for both our own And the hobby’s sake Is to learn how to downsize from the top...or maybe better yet, to finally put in the time it takes to learn how to never actually go down the all-out-assault path to begin with - or at least not without extreme care - surely a tricky and time-consuming thing, particularly if you’ve ruled out all expensive purchases from the start.
OK everybody, now relax and just enjoy the music...if you still can. :(
I bought a used low mileage BMW for less than what a new Toyota costs because I'm not an idiot and I like great cars, and my el-cheapo E90 is killer (still drive it every day, and the cost to maintain it is held down by avoiding dealerships and supporting one of the many "boutique" BMW shops). I also know sound, and have heard plenty of extreme high end systems that sound amazing, as does my well sorted pile of relatively inexpensive gear. Smug comments regarding vague absolutes such as having to spend large for true high end are silly, and only expose how lazy and inexperienced people often are. If it sounds great, it's great…period.
+1 Wolf an everything you said cars and audio both! My used 2003 VW Passat is the single best purchase I've ever made and boutique shops run by enthusiasts make it cheap and easy to maintain. Similarly well selected and matched components will produce good sound at a variety of price points low and high.
Nope if gears are chosen for SQ and not price, aesthetics ...
Law of diminishing returns doesn't exist in my world. If you want something SPECIAL, it will reflect in price too. IE: it takes more engineering and cost to build a car with 170 mph than 100 mph
top speed so price for a Porsche will exceed a Honda exponentially!
Very interesting thread. Value is so subjective, especially in this "sport" we've all chosen to indulge in. And as stated, there are others that may be similar (cars, watches, homes, hell...friends and significant others if you really want to go there).
I love my two sets of $15-20K 845 SET monos and 300B PSET monos. I also have a pre-amp in that price range. I now wouldn't consider living in my audio world without some system at that level...it has absolutely been worth that investment for me, certainly compared to stuff costing half of those prices (which were no slouches).
Would going up 50% in price, or doubling it, or more, make a valued difference? I, for one, would love to hear $40-50K amps and pre-amps and speakers in a well-matched system in my home, and see how much more emotion they might deliver. Of course it's incremental with diminishing marginal returns. At some point you will determine it's not worth it, like in everything. At some point there will reach a real limit, and you may even go backwards in actual performance. I don't know if I would justify going to that level, but I'd sure like to know what's possible.
I waited 22 years to buy a Porsche from the first time I went to look at one and considered buying it until the day I drove one home. I don't regret finally doing it one second any day of the week. I wish I hadn't waited so long. Worth it? That question can only be answered by you, obviously. Waiting that long also let me go big, which I did. Also no regrets there.
I do like the OP's question, although it does appear that the audience to answer is small as others have stated.
When HiFi gear begin to cost in silly money, I lose interest in them and their reviews. There is a simple reason if something like the 'Naim Statement' a pre and poweramp which costs at least £100,000.00 then in my mind if its not excellent its a failure. So the reviews will be predictably glowing about the equipment, and so they should. You will most probably read silly statements like 'oh my god its like the quartet was playing in the same room!' For the price of the equipment the quartet should be sitting on your lap! However when you get serious equipment doing basic good sonic hifi above its budget like the active ATC SCM19A or SCM40A then things for me get very interesting indeed because maybe in my life time the products are still reachable (perhaps a bank job here or there!)
@Wolf, great points! That's probably the best answer to my post above, since I knew I was kinda stuck not being able to resolve for everyone the problem as I see it, but that does it well enough.
"If it sounds great, it's great...period". I like that line.
"So what does this mean? It means that "good sound" is an intensely personal affair, and that also it’s likely that we all tune our ears to appreciate a certain acoustic aesthetic. Think about the times when you’ve made a change and thought at first "I hate it" but once you listen through the removal of some prior tonal or temporal distortion you realize that the thing you’re missing is just a coloration."
I must admit, even though it could conceivably be considered a rationale for the slippery slope (which I've always had to fight to try to stave off), I couldn't have said it better! Another great point!
If you recall a few years back, Lexicon released a $3000 dvd player that was a rebadged $500 oppo. Lexicon added no engineering of their own. With that said, does this ever happen in the super expensive audio components?
I believe being an audiophile is an individual journey. However you want to go through your journey is your personal experience and who is anyone to criticize your journey. I don’t care if someone waste hundreds, thousands, hundreds of thousands or millions. If you love it that much and can afford it, go for it. Can a $10,000 system beat $100,000 system? You bet, I have heard it. Any individual with $5k or $100k system that are happy with it, who am I to criticize their personal taste.
I started my journey in 1974 with a Realistic(Radio Shack) turntable and a Realistic tuner. I was only 6, but I loved it! When I was 16 I put Bose speakers in my Cherokee. I then went on to build outlandish car audio systems. Rebuilding dashes, door panels, rear dashes, and trunks all in the effort to obtain great sound. After I was married a couple years I bought a house and sold my last car audio system and started on home audio(1992). I then started building my own home speakers and started on my first home system. The drivers were from Dynaudio and I bought Quicksilver 8417 monoblocs. I used a Marantz CD player to start out and Tara Labs speaker cable that was 1" in diameter(that was crazy big in those days) that I bought from Audition Audio. My listening room was in the basement and I had a wood shop 50 feet away.
I must thank John Giolas at Audition Audio(he is now with Wilson) for his store and introduction into high end audio. It was an experience that I will always remember and I can still picture that day. He had Wilson Watt 3/Puppy 2’s hooked up to a pair of Jadis amplifiers. I was hooked! I then have to give a shoutout to Dick Diamond who is now with YG Acoustics. He worked at Audio Design which competed with Audition. They had great sound going on there as well. From there I started my full on audio addiction. I tried Krell, Rowland, Wadia, Levinson, Theta, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Thiel, Magnepan, Martin Logan, Revel, plus more. I have fond memories of everything I put through my system. I was making good money in my family business and had the ability to spend(more than I should) money on audio gear.
The next part of my journey was being introduced to Tierry Budge who was formally employed with Wilson Audio. After about a year after meeting Tierry, I left my family business and started Talon Audio(December 1998). I then proceeded to try all sorts of equipment and cable. In fact, I ended up hiring one of Ray Kimber’s(Kimber Kable) employees, Sean Casey. Things didn’t work out with Sean, but he has continued on with Zu Audio. I am really happy that he pursued his audio dream. I continued to try out different equipment including Bryston, Jeff Rowland, Pass Labs, Kimber Kable, Cardas, Analysis Plus, Electraglide, Elrod, Electrocompaniet, Audio Research, Sim Audio, Levinson, Halcro, and Shunyata Research. Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata was of great help and he gave me solid advice to help improve my business. Tierry and I then had a parting of ways around 2002. I then became the new designer for Talon. With my experience with Tierry, and help from industry consultants I was able to introduce the Firebirds. I did have to make quite a few changes to the crossover circuit and the cabinet due to my inexperience. Clement Perry, Jason Serinus, Anthony Cordesman and Doug Schneider(as well as other industry professionals) pointed me in the right direction as far as better sound and what I needed to work on.
With the Firebirds came new equipment for me to experience. Burmester, Boulder, Wavac, Tenor Audio, Halo, JC-1, EMM Labs, Edge Electronics and more of the other brands I mentioned and more. I also enjoyed Kharma, JM Labs, Sonus Faber, and Wilson loudspeakers among others. I also found power cords, and cables to be an integral part of the audio system even more than I supposed.
Circa 2004 I was introduced to HRS racks which changed the way I thought about racks. They were crazy expensive in my opinion, but I couldn’t live without that rack in my system. I then discovered Gryphon Audio. Very few products have changed my thinking on high end audio, Gryphon was a pivot point for me. Wow! I remember receiving the Mikado CD player, Sonato Allegro preamp, and the amazing Antileon Signature Class A amplifier. That was the next highlight in my audiophile journey, listening to the Firebirds with Synergistic Research Cables, HRS racks, and Gryphon Audio components right before CES at my house. Aaron Neville’s album "Warm Your Heart" was so captivating, it was like I never heard the album before. Just like the precious moment at Audition Audio, this was my next one.
The next year at CES was my introduction to Walker Audio and I discovered more from Elrod. At this point in time my marriage was failing and divorce was eminent. I sold my company to Richard Rives Bird of Rives Audio. Then came the dark ages as an audiophile for me. I sold my gear to pay for my divorce and had to use all my spare money for alimony and child support. I still produced a few designs for Talon Audio including the ThunderHawks and Phoenix speakers. I still had a Gryphon Callisto 2200, but it was not the same setup I used to have. So from 2006-2016 I didn’t have a high end system setup. I had my Talon Firehawks speakers setup in a home theater system, but I had pretty much given up on high end.
Last year my drum teacher discovered I was the former owner of Talon Audio. He ended up purchasing a pair of Raven’s from me and I helped him set up his first high end system. I pulled my Callisto out of storage so my drum teacher could get a good taste of high end audio. His enthusiasm lit a spark in me that had laid dormant for 10 years. At this point in time, alimony had recently ended and child support was ending soon. I called up Joe Kubala(whose ears I trust) who is one of the few industry professionals I kept in touch with for advice on putting together a high end audio system. He gave me advice and referred me to Bill Parish to fulfill my electronics needs. I purchased the Mola-Mola monoblocs and preamp with phono stage and dac. I also purchased the PS Audio DS Player along with a full ensemble of Kubala-Sosna Elation cables. Joe and Bill were helpful in telling me the attributes of vinyl records. I have owned turntables in the past, but they are really a hassle when you are designing speakers. Or maybe I was just too much of a spaz to appreciate the wonderment of vinyl. My system was rocking and they were leading me the right direction, so I bought a Kronos Sparta with and Air Tight Supreme cartridge. My move to vinyl was monumental. I love the PS Audio DSP, but vinyl on the Sparta blew my mind. It did take a minute to get past the pops, hisses, and aberrations of vinyl pressings. Now it is less noticeable to me(how’s that possible?).
I went to CES and Axpona this year. I ran into some industry friends including Bill Parish, Joe Kubala, and Dick Diamond at CES. I was impressed by more brands such as YG Acoustics, Audionet, Lamm Audio, Raidho Acoustics, Constellation, Nagra and more. The YG Acoustics and Raidho Acoustics demos were impressive in their demonstrations. I also caught up with Mike Latvis of HRS to see his new VRX rack which I ended up purchasing. I also have upgraded all but 3 power cords from Elation to Realization with an amazing difference. When I replaced my long interconnect run, it sounded like I added room treatment and cleaned up my already dedicated power lines. Each upgraded Realization cable yeilded the same results.
This long story has purpose and some points. During this time I have had my drum teacher come over as well as many other listeners. What I found was that we all are going through our own personal audiophile journey. He has come over to my house after major upgrades and I have to point out the differences in the system. I have had trained audiophiles come over and the differences are unmistakable. It reminded me of a child eating Filet Mignon for the first time. Just give the kid a McDonald’s hamburger and he will be happy. Why are you throwing so many tastes and textures to someone who can’t appreciate it? I’m not saying a sub $50k is like a McDonald’s hamaburger, so chill out. What I am saying is that we all are at different parts of our journey and flavor pallets change as we evolve.
The above situation is similar to driving a Subaru and a Lexus and not noticing much of a difference. This happened to my brother this year. His new Subaru was totaled from another driver and I convinced him to try the Lexus again this time. He thought the Lexus was ostentatious and that he was paying twice as much for just a little difference. Frankly, if you don’t care that much, then it isn’t worth it. My brother after 2 weeks of purchasing and driving his Lexus now knows that snobbery is not the sole reason to purchase a Lexus. He loves his car! I’m not a Lexus fan, but good for him!
The reason I decided to write this long post is to impart my thoughts and hopefully wisdom about a hobby and journey that is my own that I’m extremely passionate about. I have shown vulnerability and exposed my journey to solidify my reasoning. Yes, I have made many mistakes along the way in purchasing expensive equipment. I regret some of my purchases, but I also cherish the lessons learned. I think Williamj makes some valid points in the ROI on high end components. I have not been judicious with my dollars spent on audio. If my budget was leaner, I would have tried to maximize each dollar spent. I most likely would have built my own cables and modify all of my electronics(I have done many mods). Since my budget enabled my behavior to purchase otherwise, I have had many wonderful and less wonderful experiences in audio. I would definitely say there have been more good(95%) than bad purchases. I can still enjoy music from less expensive systems. I just get annoyed with the deficiencies after about 20 minutes. A well balanced $100k+ will captivate me enough for a longer listening session. I have not heard a sub $100k system that I feel is properly balanced to my taste. My drum teacher is a pig in mud with his relatively diminutive system. Is he wrong in his assumption? HELL NO! If you have built your system to your liking and musical preferences, it is farbeit for me to criticize your personal preferences.
In conclusion as I’m in the midst of upgrading my amplification to what I feel is a new reference for me, I meditate and appreciate every aspect and event of my journey. I want every audiophile out there to enjoy their journey as well. Please don’t let others tell you what is right or wrong or how much money you should spend. I will recommend that you broaden your music interest to maximize your listening experience. This is your journey and you should be able to explore it the way you want.
Hello Mike and welcome aboard! Nice post and thanks for weighing in here - we may only occasionally get the perspective of someone with your extensive experience. Hope you decide to stick around with us!
I see your point about name dropping. I thought about omitting them from the post since I figured quite a few of those people probably don't even like me. However I kept the names in since I was reminiscing about the people that have been a big part of my audiophile experience. I also thought it made the post more interesting.
I do have another story that may give some insight into purchasing expensive systems. I had a customer spend over $200k on speakers, electronics and cables. He went from receiver and speakers, to full tilt high end audio. He had plenty of disposable income to justify the purchase. I ended up flying out to his home because of the sizable order(he bought 2 other smaller systems for his friends). When I arrived at his home, I discovered he had one of the most undesireable rooms for listening that I have encountered. 20' plus vaulted ceiling in a 40' hexagonal room with over 50% windows. The flooring was wood and marble(of course!) In the middle of the room was a 3 step down living area where the system would reside. As good as the equipment was that he bought, it couldn't make up for that awful listening space. I proceeded to set up the system to his desires. Without the ability to add any room treatments, I was stuck. I had 2 Thunderbird subs and the bass was still lean since it was 20' away from a glass wall. Oh and the midrange glare and treble slap against all those hard refelective surfaces was mind numbing. After doing the best I could at setup and putting on my best poker face, I turned the remote over to the customer. He proceeded to test the system with female vocalist(I can't listen to Celine Dion the same way again) at ear piercing levels. He had a big smile on his face. What I thought was craptastic sound, was angelic singing to him. What I thought was a terrible room, was the perfect room for him and the entertaining he liked to do. He didn't have buyer's remorse at all. In fact I bet he plays his system more than most audiophiles. I think being single helps with that.
I think buyer's remorse comes from paying too much for a system or components and not enjoying them. I have upgraded too much too fast. I do regret that. I have had to do that to maintain a reference system for designing speakers. I have a long time audiophile friend in Southern California that has emulated(IMO) the way a high end system should be assembled. He has gone to the high end audio shows throughout the years and carefully listened to many different systems. He started out with a modest system comprising of a few thousand dollars worth of components in the early 90's. He is a real bargain hunter and he has been judicious with the money he has spent over the years on his system. He makes 1 to 3 changes a year to his system. Each change he relishes and describes to me in detail the changes in sound to his system. I'm due to fly out there and hear the recent addition of Audionet Amp monoblocs. He has been using Jeff Rowland Model 10 for over 16 years. He is happy as a lark with the changes in his system. What I have seen as effective in his system building is: 1. His never ending education on high end equipment from shows, to dealers, and others home systems. 2. His slow yet deliberate methodology of purchasing each component/cable. 3. He treats his system like an investment. He invest a certain amount of dollars into it and then he is done for the year. My plan is to follow his example.
@steakster and Ivan. Thank you for your kind words. Going through rocky times only solidified my love for audio. I didn't like it, but it was a good process for me to go through.
Steakster, I'm glad you are enjoying your Roc. I always like to hear back from Talon owners and know they are enjoying music from the speakers/subs. I'm excited to send more Talon products out next year.
I distinctly recall walking with John Curl to the Talon room circa 2000. If memory serves and I think it does Diana Krall was playing over the system. Ooops, did I drop a name? 🙄 Now ya got me doin' it.
Over the years I've been a "serial monogamist" audiophile, usually changing out one piece at a time when doing upgrades. I have a friend who has a walk-in closet full of "spare" components and when he & his wife "downsized", let me know that the closet was filled with items which disappointed him. I have been very fortunate, swapping out one piece at a time, and having a dealer I can trust (who has turned down sales when he thought the item I was interested in would not have worked out for me), and with each new piece, have enjoyed an improvement.
Ayon Audio (USA Tube Audio) has classified ads here on audiogon for $25,000 amps (plus other items lower in price). There must be a decent market for such since the ads are everywhere here. I purchase items blind thru the internet since there’s nothing, outside of HT gear, locally to hear in person. Of course, I always make sure there is a good return policy. With that, the stuff I buy is $4000 and under.
I wonder how disappointed a dealer would be to have someone purchase such a high priced (the $25,000 Ayon amp) item only to have it returned. Plus, how cooperative the dealer would be. That’s $25,000 anyway you look at it (a lot of money). I guess that’s the waters the dealer chose to swin in.
Some of the high priced items, like D’agostino, are beautiful to look at and I am sure they sound fantastic
I've never heard Ayon sound good but have heard D'Agostino sound phenomenal. The lesson here is that the sound is in the ear of the beholder. What is most important is how it sounds to YOU.
Spending more $$$ is no guarante for better sound. If you make smart choices along your personal audi journey you will be able to enjoy what you love even more. A higher resolving system can be more rewarding BUT it can also make things worse when you suddenly hear a weak link that was burried before. Working on each weak link can be very rewarding when you manage to achieve improvements. It is like an endless very personal puzzle. And I agree with Robert Harley that the better (not necessarily more expensive) the system gets the larger the reward from small improvements. The oposite of diminishing returns is what happens, when the resolution of your system allows you to hear a significant difference just by changing a minor component. Just throwing big $$$ at it does not at all guarantee satisfaction!
Speaking of super high-end, $4000 only buy used/demo cable or used cartridge or rack, though some advocate that $500 vintage cartridges can be at least just as good. I will never be operating at this level, I think just high end will be satisfactory. And I won't need a lot of money for that, $50k or so for everything, I guess. But of course if I want custom headblock for Studer deck and outboard custom tube playback head amp, and something like Herzan active isolation platform, that will be extra.
I've been a music enthusiast for some 50+ years and an audiophile for some 35 years, with a true love for every jaundra, except, maybe, Rap and have attended many live performances, in a large variety of settings. Some of my favorite being open air concerts and street corner or small theater/night club jazz ensembles. Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that my expectations for a home audio system would not necessarily include components and speakers capable of producing rock concert level volumes in my listening room. Since my head and ears (like with many of us aging audiophiles) will no longer handle that much sound pressure (at least for long) I have scratched that needs off my list. I am most happy to have a system that, at moderate levels, creates a large, detailed and convincing stage, can re-produce the timber and ayre of real instruments and vocals and produce the dynamics needed for clean, crisp percussions. Like others here, I have a love for Quads and, in general, electrostats and ribbons. I'm pretty convinced that, regardless of your needs or expectations, unless you're trying to fill a concert hall, it shouldn't cost $100,000+ to build a very nice audio system......JMO.....Jim
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
