Just coming here to let out out my frustration with Vinyl. I know that Vinyl takes patience but it's frustrating when playing some of my newer records and they have noises that I do not want to hear. Meaning, I try to clean them and they still have noise (pops, crackles, etc). When playing at low volumes of course you do not hear as much but when I turn up the volume is when it gets irritating.
I can understand if older vinyl would sound like this but these are my newer records that I bought (amazon or barnes and nobles).
Now, I know the products that I am using are probably not great in the first place and I will probably need to upgrade to some more serious cleaner).
Currently trying to use a combo of: Kaiu Vinyl record cleaning set and I have also tried the Audio Technica AT6012 Record Care Kit.
So now I am considering either a Spin Clean type system or Pro-Ject
VC-S2 ALU Type cleaning system.
Any suggestions?
I almost want to give up on Vinyl sometimes and stick to digital (cd, hi res files, qobuz streaming).
Variation on the Spin Clean theme... give this very economic solution consideration...
First, try two Spin Cleans. The second for just a distilled water rinse. Second, if you are not ready for the investment of an ultrasonic cleaner maybe the KAB-EV1 would bring the reduction in clicks and pops you seek. Here is their website followed by a Youtube video which documents the benefits of the device - evidence that I can also demonstrate by my own use.
Basically this is a cost friendly device to allow you to vacuum up the liquid from the vinyl once you have used the Spin Cleans. As they explain on the website - it is a nitty gritty cleaner but without a vac. You would use your own household vac as a substitute. Personally I use an Eureka Mighty Mac cleaner...
Yes, an investment in MoFi inner sleeves as well as any new outer sleeve will also pay dividends in keeping out static and keeping covers from falling apart.
I look forward to buying my first ultra sonic cleaner. In the meantime this combination of devices has kept my vinyl frustration to a minimum.
Hi jay, If it is new records you are playing cleaning them will not do anything except make things worse. Some record companies just do a crappy job of pressing records. I have $75,000 worth of record playing stuff and I never clean a record I purchased from new. A dust cover and a conductive sweep arm are all I use.Having said all this Some phono amps will do a better job of amplifying the signal without exaggerating the pops. I also think MC cartridges are more forgiving in this regard. Having said all this, some people are more aggravated by extraneous noise. Tradition and romanticism do not matter as much. They are better off staying with digital sources.
Use a zero stat gun before playing and spot dry clean/remove dust with audioquest’s new brush....should make a difference. I swear by vinyl revival products from the uk, great cleaning results from a manual form of record cleaning, but it is pricey. I hardly ever buy brand new records.....I have had great success in procuring sealed original pressings, whether they be 1st pressings or 2nd run pressings (heck even 3rd). They sound a heck of a lot better than anything available today at least to my ears. Most of today’s new records are not from original analog tape, but are derived via digital means albeit no better than just buying the compact disc. There are of course some exceptions, for instance classic records (defunct, but now bought and owned by acoustic sounds), and some mofi recordings. Also, in my opinion only, you really need to spend upwards of $1500 to $2000 on a turntable outfitted with a high quality moving coil cartridge (again my opinion, not to snob moving magnets) to really hear what vinyl is all about. The Hana El moving coil is a great cartridge for example, but you will spend close to $500 bucks. It’s big brother the SL is even better with the shibata stylus. Leveling the turntable to the nines as well as isolation such as a sturdy turntable shelf can make a big difference, as well as playing around with the VTA. I’m new to adjusting the VTA and I’m a believer as it made a world of difference with my hana el. You know what's more frustrating than tics and pops? Breaking a tonearm lead while changing out a cartridge...then having to solder it back on! 🙄
If it is new records you are playing cleaning them will not do anything except make things worse. Some record companies just do a crappy job of pressing records. I have $75,000 worth of record playing stuff and I never clean a record I purchased from new.
It is nice to see a bit of common sense in this thread, because prior to this post i thought all they do is cleaning records instead of actually enjoying music.
@chakster Don’t assume that because you’re satisfied with less than the best or too lazy to try to improve playback qualities that others are the same as you. Nobody is telling someone new to the hobby that they have to clean their records or take other steps to improve playback but they may choose to do so and it will have positive effects.
I generally don’t clean brand new records before I play them and I buy used records at a store that uses a record cleaner before they put them out for sale. If I buy them somewhere else then I do get out my record cleaner and make sure there is not a bunch of crap on them before I put them on my turntable.
There is no such thing as a clean paper sleeve, I ran the most advanced clean room for composite manufacturing on the planet.... but go ahead... argue...
Sometimes LP mastering has lower loudness than any of the digital versions
Some albums you can not find on other formats
Otherwise a LP is a continuous analogue wave. That is a lossy format in data terms just like MP3 is a lossy format (keep in mind to not compare with the lowest nitrate). Yes you read right! Today and for several decades we have recorded digitally. So the master original is digital so all information is there.. To make a LP then it mastering to LP format then some information is deliberately thrown away to fit the LP format. Just exactly what MP3 does. There is one of the LP lossy things. Another is during the whole production and steps the LP yet loose fideiity. Again loss. Plus we gain clicks and pops even if you take the record from the machine to your TT. It will have clicks and pops. Those were not there in the digital master.. so you see it is not all ditt. So you can not clean all away.. It is a lossy format so if that bothers you go back to digital. The problem with digital is that the record label will not give anybody the master you will get a digital copy that they have treated with more or less loudness and other stuff. So choose your poison well.. :)
Needless to say, a record is a dirt magnet. The record
can’t help it -- attracting dirt is part of its DNA. Dibasic lead stearate or cadmium
or other esters of stearic acid make up as much as 2 percent of the vinyl compound. These
additives provide thermal buffering for the vinyl during pressing, aid the platter’s
release from the mold and prevent oxidation on the newly minted record. Function served,
mold-release agents turn into foreign substances between stylus and groove, where they
remain and attract dirt. Chemical analyses of 50-year-old used records reveals
mold-release agent still in the groove.
Playing dirty records not only generates audible clicks
and pops, it wreaks physical havoc. When a stylus exerting N tons of pressure per
square inch smacks head on into a family of 5-micron-sized rocks sailing along at 60
knots, the impact can deform the groove wall or, thanks to heat generated by the forces in
play, fuse those rocks to the vinyl itself.
Don’t assume that because you’re satisfied with less than the best or too lazy to try to improve playback qualities that others are the same as you. Nobody is telling someone new to the hobby that they have to clean their records or take other steps to improve playback but they may choose to do so and it will have positive effects.
I generally don’t clean brand new records before I play them and I buy used records at a store that uses a record cleaner before they put them out for sale. If I buy them somewhere else then I do get out my record cleaner and make sure there is not a bunch of crap on them before I put them on my turntable.
You made a lot of incorrect assumptions.
You guys are free to clean everyday, but if i do not hear any problem i do not clean with special devices, it’s been pointed out before that professional sellers clean their vintage record with vacuum cleaners prior to sell them, i do not buy on flea markets. To my eyes my records are clean visually and does not sound dirty when i play them.
I improve the sound quality with different cartridges and phonostages. Since i do not have a digital background in music at all (i don’t care about digital) i am fine with vinyl, i’m not sure what you are trying to achieve when you’re cleaning them (sound like a CD or what?) or maybe they are so dirty, but i tried vacuum cleaning at the local shop, it was a good point to make sure my record were clean before i cleaned them, because i did not find huge improvement. I am more concerned about the condition of the vinyl, because even if you will clean VG record it will never be a VG+, you can’t wipe away scratches on surface.
A Near Mint condition record without any cleaning is better than cleaned VG. Condition is far more important, because scratches on surface is annoying, this is what makes huge pops and cracks in the system.
I have no idea why do you want to clean a MINT condition or NEW record if the sound is just great ? This is audiophilia at their best.
If you will look under microscope on everything around you will see it’s not clean, not sterile, so what ? Shall we turn on the ultra violet light to kill the microbes ?
P.S. I do clean my styli and trying to keep my record clean without overestimating the problem.
@chakster Cleaning a record with my VPI 16.5 takes maybe 2 or 3 minutes, really not much more time than it would take to run a brush over the record.
The VPI is like a turntable. You put a record on it and you squirt a little cleaning solution on it, spin it around a couple of times with the cleaning brush and then you vacuum it for two revolutions, flip to the other side and repeat. I don't see spending two or three minutes getting the record clean before I listen for 40 minutes to be a huge ordeal.
Of the 6 or 7 record stores within 45 minutes of me, there's only one that I know of that cleans their used records. That is where I buy most of my used records, so I don't spend a lot of time cleaning used records. When I order records from Discogs, I always clean those. As I mentioned, I don't normally clean new records, but if I open it and it's covered with a bunch of dust from a cheap inner sleeve, it gets cleaned.
I grew up on vinyl and frankly am surprised at how quiet some records can be when played back on a nice system. The little bit of noise I hear doesn't bother me, but I don't care for loud pops when I'm intently listening to the music. I'm not sure cleaning does much for those, if it does, that's great.
In most cases, I don't notice the night and day differences some claim after cleaning a record, but I can tell you there have been a few times when a record didn't seem to be playing well and I cleaned it and it sounded dramatically better.
A while ago I had cut back on how often I used the cleaner. I was listening to records with my girlfriend one night and the record was sounding noisy and not very dynamic. She noticed it too and said "Why don't you try cleaning it?". I said "I bought it from __________ (the store that cleans all their records), so it's probably not going to make any difference, but I'll give it a try". I wasn't expecting it to help at all. I cleaned it, and most of the noise went away. Since then, I've been using the machine more often.
Clean, don't clean... I don't care. What I don't understand is why you're trying to convince people it's not helpful, or that it's time consuming or hard to do. Those are all falsehoods.
You can buy after-market end of record lifting devices so don’t let manual only tables turn you off. That said, I already recommended a semi-auto Technics 1500c if you can't stretch to a 1200GR. Forget the Thorens. A used VPI Classic might also suit.
I’m with Chakster on this. I try to buy original pressings in Ex to M condition. I clean with a quick swipe with a carbon fiber brush before use. No problems whatsoever. With the amount of money spent on cleaning devices, I would rather buy a few more rare original near mint gems. I’m sure that ultrasonically cleaned records probably make a difference, I just haven’t felt the need on my system with my records.
Going all the way back to the 70's, I realized that handling records is what caused most of the 'cracks and pops'. that's when I bought a reel to reel and recorded my records so that I could listen without handling them.
Since that time I've graduated to 'half track' at 7.5 IPS on a much better reel, and listen to my records that way.
Recently, I upgraded my rig including a tube phono that likes $300. NOS tubes, that come to $600. a pair. While that's nothing to some, it's very expensive to me. This whole high end analog thing is expensive, but worth it.
After all of that upgrading, it was time to record my entire vinyl collection, a big job but well worth it. Reel to reel tape costs much more than it did ages ago, but so do a lot of other things. I also down-load my vinyl to separate hard-drive.
Many people deep into analog don't realize that you can down-load to hard drive and wont be able to tell the difference between playing a record and listening to the playback on your play list from the computer. That was hashed out some years ago, and the consensus was that if you did it right, you couldn't tell the computer from playing a record. Doing it right goes into a whole litany of things. Now, I rarely touch my records.
But getting back to the fundamental problem with records, I was listening to a record I bought used that had some wear. This record is absolutely unavailable anymore on any format. I was listening to it after it had been recorded to reel and down loaded to hard drive. The upgraded analog increased the music to noise ratio, and I could hear the record noise, but only if I focused on it. Since I chose to focus on the sublime music, the record noise disappeared. Maybe I need to repeat that sentence.....
This record hobby has it's limitations, and you go with the flow when it comes to record noise; however, with my philosophy of only handling records to clean and record after an extensive upgrade, plus an investment in record sleeves, I have records I bought in the 80's that are the same as brand new. I was quite pleasantly surprised to discover that I had so many when I down-loaded my collection.
Focus on the music instead of the record noise when it occurs.
"Those overpriced reissues made for the sect of audiophile elitist is not what normal music lover really need, there are tons of original pressings around and people who trying to tell they are not as good as the audiophile pressing are just .... "
I agree. Most of the time, the original pressings are the way to go. More air and decay than heavily EQ’d reissues. However, for example, many of the original blue notes are very expensive and the tone poets are very good, well pressed and very listenable. There are other labels which are at least as good as Tone Poets. I am just talking about Jazz records. There are others reissues such as original jazz classics that are extremely good for a very good price.
Even Blue Notes from the early seventies are very good.
As far as reissues vs original pressing is concerned it is a crap shoot. Can go either way. As far as gunk in the groove of new records is concerned, there isn't any. Nada, nothing. I once played 15 new records in a row under a dust cover using a conductive sweep arm. At the end there was nothing on the stylus under a microscope. Nothing, not even any dust (all on the sweep arm.) Yes, you can digitize your record collection. Get Channel D's Pure Vinyl and you can download it to the computer in real time at 192/24. You don't need a reel to reel machine. I have pure Vinyl and have down loaded several records and they do sound fine but I decided not to do it. There is something traditional about playing a record that I like. I have records that have been played many times without any audible wear so I do not feel the need to download them to save the collection. Channel D makes phono amps that have no compensation in them. The RIAA correction is done by the computer. So Pure Vinyl actually plays the record. I have not tried this yet and do not know if I ever will. Some people think it is an improvement. Analog junkies do not like digitizing their music. Good rice paper record sleeves that will not hold static are a must but they have to be well made and heavy or they just fold up when you try to put them back in the cover.
There's a audio store in Pasadena, CA, Audio Element, which has record cleaners available to customers. You just need to buy some record cleaning solution to utilize their cleaners as much as you want. I think I will take a couple of my records that I seem to be having some issues with, clean it there and then also play it there and see how they sound. They have a bunch of turntables you can check out and play on, so I will probably do a before and after and see how the results are. Since I do not have a higher end record cleaner and don't know anyone personally who is into this hobby, this will have to be the way to test out the records.
If I like the results, then I might invest in a cleaner. Thing is, at the moment, I have probably have about 50 or less records. I also won't be able to buy or keep hundreds of them simply because I do not have the room, so I will need to be very selective of what I want on the LP format. I hope I can get out there on one of the coming weekends.
I will say from experience that the right phono preamp and cartridge has reduced clicks and pops significantly. I switched to a slightly higher output cart and somewhat lower gain from the phono pre. I wasn't really looking for the quieter result but somewhere along the line just noticed the records were quieter, by quite a bit actually.
Got a spin clean -
which drove me crazy and made me want to walk away from records and cut
my losses. The SC seemed to make more noise than it took away.
Had the same issue with my Spin Clean, noisier than before I cleaned the record. Bought a used record Doctor vacuum RC, haven't looked back since.
Check the website of "TODD THE VINYL JUNKIE" Claims to have a cleaner that will do what other cleaners don't Only other thing needed is a good record vacuum system after his chemicals have had time to do their work. I haven't tried it yet but he hasn't steered me wrong in the past. Also, there is a new ultrasonic by KIRMUSS AUDIO. A little expensive but claims it will work where other systems don't. Can be seen at AXPONA.
If I like the results, then I might invest in a cleaner. Thing is, at the moment, I have probably have about 50 or less records.
This is really all you need, cheap as chips. Invest in vinyl instead and buy yourself a proper cartridge and turntable first, this is much more important.
I'm pretty sure you don't need to clean NEW records
I am an old fart, so take this with a grain of salt as I am also a first time poster who is nowhere as learned/experienced as those on this forum which I have shadowed and learned from for many years.
I started with a Discwasher kit in the 70's (still have it although pretty worn out). From there, after a hiatus from vinyl in the 90's, I went to a VPI-HW17 (excellent machine), which I still use to this day. Than in 2019 I get a killer deal on a
Audio Desk Systeme Vinyl Cleaner PRO. I now use the VPI to do an intial distilled water cleaning than on to the Audio Desk and back to the VPI for another distilled water pass. I have been pleased with the results of this process.
Now that I have shared my record cleaning history. I would highly suggest you go to the Pro-Ject VC-S2 ALU machine or any of the VPI's, Okki Nokki or wet/vacuum cleaning machine which, IMHO will do a way better job than a Spin Clean or any other hand cleaning method that I know of.
I clean all records, new and used. Cleaning technique may vary between new and used, but new or used they need to be cleaned.
When I am away from home and buy LP's, I clean with an Allsop Orbitrac 3. When I return home they go in the VPI & Audio Desk.
I also clean my stylus between each side on a LP with a brush and a
Onzow Zerodust.
I own a Loricraft and have used it for well over 3 decades. Contrary to Chakster's claim that new records don' t require cleaning based entirely on his opinion they don't,...they most certainly benefit from and should be. The Loricraft like others easily shows in the waste jar just what was in the grooves of that "new" lp. The poster who brought up working in a clean room I bet most certainly knows record pressing plants are far and away at the other end of the spectrum realistically. Apparently some here think they are , to feel cleaning isn't needed or the paper sleeves still used aren't an issue to worry about. Yet the forums are littered with complaints of new vinyl is noisy no matter how many times some read the guy who isn't complaining cleaned his first...and .... more importantly rinsed well. You will never know how a record was handled when packaged after pressing....or how it was handled by previous user (s) if used .... You only know how it is handled in your posession. Besides the cost of the vinyl itself, we pay considerable sums for cartridges these days. Proactive it seems makes the few minutes cleaning new , or new to you vinyl and the visible crud suspended in the vacuumed cleaning fluid jar to me, beats opinion based on opinion...
Ability to NOT HEAR normal amount of Static is Acquired, allows involvement without disruption. Ticks and pops are disruptive to enjoyment.
Played LP's from 1960 until CD players cost became reasonable. Teenager, cheap equipment, no care of lps.
Played CD's, Holy Crap, no noise, for life, Nirvana.
Inherited Thorens Heavy Platter TD124 with SME 3009 arm, bought Shure V15V.
Tried Vinyl again. Noisy.
Had to re-acquire the brain's ability to listen to the music and the brain to ignore static. Once acquired, realized, CD was a trick, Analog is the real deal.
Realized, many of my old LP's were beat up, so began acquiring new or very good used.
Cleaned on the TT Platter, with squirt and brush and wait to dry. Waiting to dry disruptive to enjoyment.
Just upgraded to Dual Arm TT, superb heavy plinth, better arms, new cartridges.
Better equipment does a better job of revealing problems, i.e. my dirty records.
the primary advantage for me is the drying rack, clean 10 at a time, play them later or tomorrow. (chacksters has the drying rack also, it is just not shown, it stores inside the base. .......................... repeat, IF New LP's are too noisy, it's more likely cartridge alignment/stylus condition, New LP should need a simple swish with dust/static brush, and sound great.
I t was mentioned that M/C cartridges might mask tics and pops. Could this be from a heavier traking force. I am going to play with thjis idea by adjusting mine.
I've done 5 Audiophile group get-togethers in SoCal since September. We have 2-3 good DACs (and 5-6 not so good) several TTs, lots of amps and speakers. One of our guys brings an ultrasonic cleaner. That does make a difference on good/or new records, but on some, nothing helps. IT take about 15 min and he has some brew he uses. That gets the stuff out of the deep groves and for some new records it brighten's them up a bit.
There is one Vinyl that always sounds best. There are 2-3 that we all debate. The Vinyl guys prefer the records. Then that are many many records that just are not that good. The same/or similar track on DAC is better.
The issue is probably the phono stage. I found this out personally, since when I changed from several phono preamps that I owned to the Manley Chinook, all my records became far quieter. Even friends notice that you rarely hear pops, clicks or scratches on my system.
Do a search on AGon for Atmosphere and Phono Stage, and you'll read descriptions from analog expert Ralph Karsten on why this happens. Bottom line, it's about static that is created in the process of the needle dragging across the vinyl, and how the phono preamp can become unstable for a variety of reasons. A better phono preamp will make a huge difference.
This and a 6L ultrasonic tub is the most cost effective way to properly clean records. 1 Gallon Distilled water is perfect fill level which cleans about 30 albums depending on how dirty they are. I don’t use any addictive although many do. Good listening Peter
Get used to it. I have stopped buying new music on vinyl. Digital is consistently better and most of it was digitally mastered anyway. Adding a DA, cutting lathe, pressing plant, and a phono cartridge to the playback chain is not going to increase fidelity. New vinyl is a complete crapshoot when it comes to surface noise and SQ. Most records are being pressed on antique machinery by people that don't have the experience of times past. In it's heyday all new records were quiet. Now, as the OP said, some new pressings sound like used records.
Not to be (too) repetitive, but obviously, the better your equipment, the better opportunity for the awesome sound of vinyl to be enjoyed. That being said, a better system will naturally expose whatever flaws may be on your records, including dirt. Cleaning ALL (including brand new) records prior to playing is essential for maximum pleasure. After doing extensive research I recently purchased a Clearaudio Double Matrix Sonic (not ultrasonic) cleaning machine. I believe it to be the best in the world. The results have been astounding, far exceeding my expectations. 40 year old records (with 40 years worth of dirt, complete with pops and background noise) sounded (and looked) pristine after a single cleaning. The machine cleans the records by automatically spinning the discs forward and backward multiple times, and while doing that, secretes cleaning fluid, to both sides simultaneously, and vacuums several times during a single process. There is also a manual setting so that you may customize the process for a deeper cleaning, if necessary. Once the cleaning is completed, the user then swings an antistatic arm over the disc and after 2 or 3 revolutions all static electricity is gone. Then place the record into a Mobile Fidelity sleeve for safe keeping. Putting the record back into the paper sleeve which is full of dust (and worse) defeats the purpose of doing the cleaning in the first place. There are videos on You Tube available to see the process in action. By the way, the reason for sonic, rather than Ultrasonic, is that ultrasonic's powerful waves may cause the loosened dirt to crash into the grooves of the record, causing damage. The ClearAudio Double Matrix is a very expensive machine, so that may be a non starter, but if you can swing it, you will be thrilled with the results. Plus, it's REALLY cool to watch it work and it's built like a tank! The retail for the machine is $6,000(!), but I bought mine on AudioGon for (only!) $3,300. It was an open box, but never used.
Why not buy a db power amp program for under $50 rip all your CDs to 8 highest flac file rip or download Hirez music from HD Trax and buy a great Vacuum tube Dac like the very reasonably priced Lampizator Amber 3 for $2800 beats dacs 2x + this . Buy the best USB cable a Final touch audio most natural Analog cable out there under $1k. And also stream through your computer JRivers media 26, down load the Jremote app on your iPad ,even tidal and Roon no more headaches just pick what you want to hear ,and you can tune your dac by upgrading rectifier tubes,as well as the 12au7 signal tube to nos vintage tubes to your systems balance or taste and sounds excellent.
Chakster, I'm with you on minimal care required and if there is no static any sleeve will do although the paper ones do get crappy after a while. However the issue of new vs vintage vinyl is extremely variable. I have many old European classical records that are just unbelievable and dead quiet. But I have some older rock and jazz records that were terrible mixes probably because the monitoring equipment being used was sub optimal. I have new releases, one that comes to mind is Weather Report's Sweetnighter which is fabulous in all ways but some of the newer rock reissues are awful. My original copy of Roxy Music's Avelon out performs any of the digital or vinyl reissues I have. So, it is a mixed bag. If you really love the music and the reissue is being done by a company that has pride in it's product it is perfectly legitimate to get the reissue. I do find it odd that people buy records purely for the sound quality and not the music.
Thanks for all suggestions on the cleaning machines. Some of them are unfortunately quite pricey for myself. As I stated before, hopefully I can get out to the audio store that I mentioned and try our their machines to clean and see how they do. @davidgwillett,
The get togethers that you have done, have they been at someone's home? I am assume, a different person's home each time? Also, how big is your group and do you all bring some equipment with you to test out and demo? Thanks
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