Matching pre and power with SS and tube can be a challenge like you said, especially if the equipment was not designed to go together. Vincent Audio hybrid integrated amps are an excellent step up from the Schiit and Jolida offerings. Vincent uses high current class AB instead of what I consider inferior Class D offerings that are becoming very common, even at higher price points.
For tube sound, which is more important: preamp or power amp?
I have always loved the “tube sound” - warmth, midrange, soundstage. Through the years (since about 1975), I have owned many tube and solid state amps and preamps, in various combinations. Presently, I have a tube amp and a solid state preamp. But like most of you, I am thinking of making changes, again. Not to cloud the discussion, the specific brands are not important. I also listen to acoustic music, females vocals, love mini monitors, EL34s, NOS tubes, and don’t care that much about bass. So you can see that my taste fits the tube sound very well. But I have had systems that are too warm, not enough dynamics or details, and fat in the low end, too.
okay, now to the discussion. To produce the tube sound, which is more important: the preamp or the power amp? Let’s talk in general, and (if possible? May not be) not tied to one specific piece/brand/model of equipment. I know there are exceptions to any general rule. Not sure if it makes a difference to your comments, but I have no phono and am running line stage only.
As an attempt to prevent the conversation as going in a big tangent, let’s assume equality of price/quality. i.e. not comparing a $10k power amps contribution to a system to that of a $1k preamp. Let’s also assume that the amp (tube or solid state) can drive the speakers just fine, such that compatibility does not limit the decision. And ignore mono blocks versus stereo amp differences.
two follow ons: I have the perception that preamps give you more bang for the buck - meaning that it takes less money to get a great tube preamp compared to a great tube amp. Agree/disagree? And second, I have never owned a tube dac or CD player, and will assume that tubes in either of these is less critical than in a preamp or power amp. Agree/disagree?
i am interested in your thoughts.
Bill
okay, now to the discussion. To produce the tube sound, which is more important: the preamp or the power amp? Let’s talk in general, and (if possible? May not be) not tied to one specific piece/brand/model of equipment. I know there are exceptions to any general rule. Not sure if it makes a difference to your comments, but I have no phono and am running line stage only.
As an attempt to prevent the conversation as going in a big tangent, let’s assume equality of price/quality. i.e. not comparing a $10k power amps contribution to a system to that of a $1k preamp. Let’s also assume that the amp (tube or solid state) can drive the speakers just fine, such that compatibility does not limit the decision. And ignore mono blocks versus stereo amp differences.
two follow ons: I have the perception that preamps give you more bang for the buck - meaning that it takes less money to get a great tube preamp compared to a great tube amp. Agree/disagree? And second, I have never owned a tube dac or CD player, and will assume that tubes in either of these is less critical than in a preamp or power amp. Agree/disagree?
i am interested in your thoughts.
Bill
173 responses Add your response
Tube gear opens up a gigantic barn door of idiosyncrasies that make up the fun part of the "tubist" cult. The Schiit Vidar certainly isn't a tube amp but it was designed to be used with their tube preamps so maybe it matches well with those. Not many reviews yet so who knows? I don't imagine there is a sonically comparable tube amp at that price, although Jolida may provide a tube solution albeit at twice the cost. I like Jolida amps. It's hard to find a relatively powerful tube power amp (except maybe a used one) at relatively el-cheapo prices unless there are some Chinese brands I don't know about. If you can afford 'em, go tube. Otherwise, listen to some of the well thought out SS stuff until you can buy that Atmasphere amp you really want. |
Somehow I've avoided Cryoed tubes…seems to be an unnatural thing to put those poor tubes through, although I might try a pair anyway to see what's what. And Danaroo, check out a Schiit Vidar (relatively cheap at 700 bucks or so) maybe as there seem to be some good designs going on with those guys, as my soon to arrive Freya will hopefully confirm (I have a little Schiit Loki EQ that is amazingly useful and well designed). What I like about new gear is the fact that I can return it if it sucks (just returned some headphones that don't fit my fat head). |
I think this is a false question. There is a great deal of variation between tube preamps and power amps. And let's not forget that tube power amps need to be paired with the right loudspeakers as well. I run a multi-amplified loudspeaker that calls for 8 channels at 60 wpc, which is prohibitively expensive using tubes, not to mention the cost in air conditioning. So I run an Aikido design tube preamp and just enjoy listening. |
Which is more important - you ask? It’s kinda like ice cream, it's about different flavors and what you like in the end. I was an all solid state owner for too long. Should have tried tube preamps sooner than I did several decades later. Today, I keep my tube Cary SLP-98 TUBE Pre-amp running 100% of the time as my front-end. And, now swap out a Cary V12R (12) EL34 Triode/Ultralinear TUBE amp for a Cary SA-200.2 SOLID STATE amp every once in a while. While the tube amp is glorious and lush, when I swap back to the solid state amp periodically - it brings another dimension of dynamics at times. In either case, I would have a very hard time going back to a solid state preamplifier though. Really like having a tube preamp on the front-end; particularly when each of the back-end amplifier types are specifically designed to work with a particular tube pre-amplifier. More "important" is finding a good "match" between any preamp or amplifier (tube or SS) as I learned the hard way through trial-and-error. Good luck. |
Blue glass JJ 88s! I don't own any of those but I want some! I don't think you can discount the esthetic element of tubes…I'm using a great sounding pair of Sovtek 88s from my "back up tube stash" partly because they have a groovy blue glow inside. I'm also a fan of some vintage tubes (ones I've owned that worked) and like various recent vintages of Gold Lions, but spending big bucks on older tubes seems unnecessary these days. |
I agree with tube amp but no longer wish to pay well over a grand for the Sylvania 6550's power tubes it was designed for . If you can even find them. Some say the new Russian Tungsold's are fine, I say they must have never heard even a GE from the 50's. A tube pre pushing a Belles 350 or 150A Reference sounds very near to live music . |
wow,similar fantasy for me.I worked at a TV Shop[actually 2] in the 80's and we had WALLS of tubes.I always wished I'd had the foresite to snatch up a few Peaches Crates full.Didnt mess with guitars then so I did not even dream I'd ever need tubes.The old guy that owned the first shop always said tubes wouldnt go away.If only for the Governments secret tube communication bunkers lol.I also have the same dream now for guitars and amps |
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All I know is that whatever you get that has tubes it seems to be a blackhole for money if you want to tube roll .I did not expect that as I was buying up tubes. I still want more so now if someone in the family asks what I want for Christmas,Bday or Fathersday I'll say" Tubes ". Between guitar amps,The Freya and the Primaluna give me 6sn7,5692,12ax7,12at7,12au7 etc.el84,el34,kt66,kt77,kt88 or kt120. |
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I have heard a recent new product from a well established company with very innovative approach to class AB amplification in my system for a 30 day trial. Incredible resolution. Super clear, dynamic, great soundstage...etc. but after some time too clinical; almost too perfect to the point where my brain disengages from the sound and I want to walk away. Too "high fi". Could not relax with this sound.This is NOT a direction I want my system to go in. I sent it back.Benchmark managed to make a Class AB amp sound like a Class D amp. Quite an interesting accomplishment. Suck out the distortion with NFB and suck the life out of the music. There is no free lunch with NFB. |
Ditto to Wolf’s opinion of the 12 wpc Inspire . ABSOLUTLY amazing . But what really blew me away was Dennis ! 6 weeks ago , I was playing a new matches pair of Gold Lion KT-77’s ( 150 hrs ). I heard a pop , then another , fairly mild . Shut my stuff down and went to bed . Next morning , I switched the 2 tubes, installed a different driver and rectifier . Turned on my system and just let it sit there with the CD on pause. About ten minutes in , a pop in the other Chanel . So as I watched the amp and contemplated a bad tube , Kaboom ! At about 100 dB. Dove for the switch . No light show , just a trickle of smoke from the chassis . Pulled it apart and I had completely destroyed a couple caps , a resistor with such force that it snapped the terminal strip . I emailed Dennis , HELP ! 30 minutes later my phone rang . He said ship it to me and I’ll fix it for free . I said it’s 18 months old and it was my bad tube . He said , It never happens and I’ll fix it or build you a new one for free . I shipped it to him and it was home , fixed and return shipping for free in two weeks. I begged Dennis to let me pay him . He reluctantly said OK , 100 smackers ! How many times have I met a man like him ? Not enough . All he cares about is the Audiophile enjoying his music . Try his amp . Like I said on his EBay feedback - BEST 12 Watts I’ve ever heard ! Then I went to a lower rectifier and the KT77’s and Heaven . Imagine what top notch Mullards would sound like ! I do have NOS 6550 Tungsols , amongst 5 other pairs of various values . And the tube selection for my pre ! Same results with the single E88CC Tube in the gain stage of the Inspire . Flipping Sweet ! It would sound amazing with a good pair of small speakers and stands , and subs ! |
After decades of various enjoyable SS amps, the push-pull ultra linear tube amp I used in recent years (Factory modded Jolida 502P) provided tube sweetness and was, at 65 watts per side, plenty loud. Great amp. After watching a Youtube interview with Dennis Had, I got it in my head that I wanted to try one of his amps so when a 12 watt per side recent version "Inspire Fire Bottle" showed up on Ebay at a reasonable price, I bought it. It shouldn't work well with my alleged 91db speakers (albeit helped by 2 REL subs), and hey…it shouldn't sound much better than other well sorted stuff I've owned. However, it absolutely has more resolution and tonal accuracy than any amp I've owned by a wide margin…is it the simple design? Better transformers? Tube rectification? Class A single endedness? It simply makes me want to sit there and listen to stuff endlessly…things I thought sounded so-so (A recent Nora Jones CD seemed dark and badly mixed on my old amp…but sounds great with this amp…go figure) now sound killer…a cool surprise that really lives up to Had's Ebay hype in the often hilarious little rants that he posts when he sells something. |
, that’s a Big Question . It feels like I’m trying to arm wrestle an octopus 🐙. So in regards to just your present system . I run a modest price Rogue RP-1, that was a cost driven purchase . This pre uses a pair of 12au7’s . I also have quality interconnects . What I have found rolling tubes in this amp and in regards to your system and musical preferences is this . I can change the entire presentation of the system by changing these two tubes. NOS are my go to BTW. If I run Mullards it’s soft and mild , with the entire soundstage subdued. If I run Amperex Holland , the overall is very bright and forward , losing bass ( not the fish ). If I run Seimens nickel plates the top 1/3 is forward of a fairly full sound . If I run Telefunkens , my porridge is JUST RIGHT . So my opinion is, if you go tube preamp you can play with tone and the layering of the music ( depth ). This has allowed me to fine tune my system , especially female vocals . If I listen late at night I can enjoy Diane Krall as if it’s live. I also like Natelie Merchant and Amy Winehouse . BTW , my wife put me on Simon and Garfunkel probation . If I was to get a new pre today , I’d consider Don Sachs . Advise from Wolfie and Whitestix is aligned with mine . It’s just that we have similar tastes in music . Everyone that posted has found a good Synergy with what their taste requires. Now that I’m through promoting, recently I blew up my Dennis Had Inspire Amp . While it was off for repairs, I ran a Vintage Marantz SS amp . I had a ton of hiss . Tube pre with too much gain coupled to a SS amp that requires low signal into a 98db speaker equals MUCHO HISS . It’s all about compatibility ! Back in 1975 ( I’m old too ), I ran a SS pre into Dynaco MkIII’s to Jbl’s . It was fun . As far as el34’s , they’re great ! I really like the new Gold Lion KT-77’s and the SED Winged C’s in EL34 and 6L6LGC . As far as the Schiit pre , I love their stuff , but it’s a compromise and you’d be better served going full tilt on a pre . BTW , I’m saving my penny’s for a Gumby or a Yiggy , I have an Uber Bifrost . Good luck on your endeavor, it’s only money and sanity . |
The OP question (and more) was answered 40 years ago by Bob Carver. Short story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Carver Long story: https://www.stereophile.com/content/carver-challenge In brief, Bob Carver Challenge proved that he could emulate any "top" amplifier with his 400$ (then) model with some pots and circuits to shape the transfer function. Therefore it’s logical to employ amps as pure "wire with gain" devices and shape the sound to taste upstream. |
Test Pilot is the only comment above, IMHO, that begins to answer the question. And to me that is: What kind of tubes are you talking about and what kind of tube amp design are we talking about? There are so many variables here. The classic tube gear of the 50s and 60s was very tubey and euphonic sounding. Not the most neutral but that even order distortion was so sweet and lush sounding. The epitome of tube sounding. Single ended tube gear in general is a lot less sweet sounding than a push pull design but there's just something so right about the sound. And PP triode, as written by the late Harvey Rosenberg in Listener magazine, using 4 pin true triode tubes (45s, 2A3's, 300B's, 10's, 211's, 845's, etc) in PP was according to him even better sounding than single ended triode. I once owned a moded organ amp that used 6BG6's in PP triode and it was one of the finest and lushest sounding tube amps I ever owned and I've had lots of different tube and SS combinations. Although I couldn't A/B the two amps, my recollection of it was that it was on par, if not superior, to my old McIntosh MC225 amp, which was described in TAS as the best sounding Mac stereo amp, althought the MC240 and MC275 got all the accolades. The MC225 was Mac's only stereo amp run in triode. With SS amps, I think mosfet amps sound tubier than bipolar transistors and the chip amps also work extremely well with a tube preamp. Although its been several years since I heard an EL34 amp, I remember that as being a very lush sounding tube as opposed to an EL84 which was more neutral sounding in the amps that I owned. So in conclusion, lots of variables here but if I had to choose between the amp and preamp as which one contributed to the overall tubey sound, I would say the power amp. |
I have tried all combination's with exception (by choice) to having both the pre and amp being tubed. I find for low level, late night listening, a tube amp or integrated amp will sound much better than anything else for the money. A tube preamp is useful for injecting just enough 2nd harmonic distortion to help ameliorate much of the phase issues or crossover distortion with lesser quality SS amps or Class D amps. I found that listening DAC direct (balanced) to my class D monoblocks to be pretty much unlistenable.. grey and clinical with an over-emphasis on detail and HF transient response. However i've heard worse for much more $ at trade shows, unbelieveably. Because of my speakers (86-89db depending on reviewer), I use a NOS VT-99 preamp with class D monoblocks. This gives a very listenable sound with a relatively low noise-floor, and i can crank it up if need be and the soundstage stays coherent and fleshed out. I also have an older but still excellent Pass Aleph amp which may not have the detail of class D with a tube pre, but driven directly from my DAC, it (despite being only 30 watts) has a very full bodied and spatially delineated sound. It sounds organic enough, or 'real' perhaps, even more so than tube pre to Class D. This is true for most my music except for for tracks with samples of rainfall, where the individual rain drops are slightly smeared compared to Class D with my tube pre. I assume this is most likely due to the Aleph being an old amp, older technology, running in Class A, but more importantly for me, it still doubles down into 4ohms. Maybe a Pass 30.8 would be an upgrade to the old Aleph. The tube Pre paired with the class A Aleph, sounded too soft and sinewy for my tastes. Direct from DAC was more 'right.' I use the tube pre and class D for summer listening, and the DAC direct to Pass for winter. One other consideration is it took me quite a lot of trial and error to find the right tubes for my pre. Maybe $3,000 invested in tubes total, but once i found the right ones i loaded up because their difference is just that great. |
Many meaningful contributions presented. In my experience I have discovered that finding a great preamplifier a daunting task. Let's face it, if your preamplifier can't resolve the micro-details/dynamics along with the other obvious positive qualities, you have already lost the battle. The power amplifier can't compensate for lost or inaccurate information. Seems easy enough but in reality not so much. In this light I would place the preamplifier as the most influential electronic component in the audio chain (limited to preamplifier & amplifier). Remember that our passion and pursuit of our individual goals is not assisted with implemented standards by manufacturer's that helps us along our journey. No standard voltage requirements to drive an amplifier to full rated output and impedance issues as well. Many preamplifiers are fussy about length of Interconnects, etc. Best of luck and happy listening! |
If it were me I would go for a good tube amp. One that is not fat sounding. That can also be caused by the tube amp / speaker combo. so make sure that the work well with each other. So now that you are there you can try some different preamplifiers, both tube and solid state and find out which one you prefer. |
All very good comments above. It comes down to what tube sound you are looking for IMO. To me building components my DHT DAC provided more of the tone, dimensionality, soundstage, micro to macro dynamic swings then either my DHT preamp or tube power amp. So my experience may be quite different than others. My DAC was recently purchased by another Agon member and he has a Dude tube preamp, with NuForce mono block amplifiers. His Dude provided beautiful tube sound in his system with a SS DAC. Inserting a DHT DAC added space, dimension, tonality, micro to macro dynamic swings, more separation of vocals and instruments, depth, etc. to the sound. DHT is a different type of tube sound that is not lush like the old CJ gear. Different tubes provide different sound to the system, 6922/6DJ8, EL34, 300B, 6SN7, 101D, etc. To me DHT is more like SS meets tubes type of sound. Which is the best bang for the buck is another evaluation. I recently modified a CJ MV-50 power amp. These amps can be purchased used for not too much money. It had some damage so I rewired the amp to all point-to-point wirings and added a few upgrades to caps and resistors. The amp in stock for IMO is a basic good tube amp. After the upgrade it was a wonderful sounding tube amp. So in general which is the best bang for the buck, that comes down to the design and your ears. I cannot say one does more than the other IMO. I hope this was somewhat helpful. |
As the OP, I have thoroughly enjoyed everyone’s comments. As I expected as I threw the question out there, quite a bit of the discussion is philosophical, and the views are quite different. And you cannot avoid some of the very practical issues such as speaker needs and tube life/ cost. I have avoided the speaker compatibility issues by using relatively efficient mini monitors that are easy to drive, and have a small room where 30 wpc is more than enough. I know that many of you don’t have this luxury and so your situation is more complicated. so, (and knowing that this will not be my final equipment purchase) I think it’s time to buy another tube preamp (replacing my naim ss) to go into my primaluna tube amp. Rather than bog this thread down with specifics, I’ll probably start another discussion on the merits of a 2-4k preamp versus dropping 8k and making the preamp the most expensive item in my system. but, continue discussing preamp versus power amp, as it has been great. Bill |
I tested various tube/SS scenarios with my Shiit Freya preamp, SS hypex n-core and Airtight AM201 tube amplifiers and Shiit Yggdrasil DAC. Freya offers three options: passive, FET, tube. For the last position I use 1940's VT231 Tung Sols. Here are my observations for preamp/amp combinations. Since I don't hear meaningful differences between passive and FET positions of Freya, I'll just use "passive" here. Passive+AM201-- good "tube" sound combo TungSol+AM201-- too much of the good thing. Euphony blurs detail. Passive+ncore -- maximum detail and truth TungSol+ncore -- less detail more euphonic. I use it for jazz with female vocals. The voices become a bit "sunny and smiley". In practice I use the last two positions for the convenience of switching Freya only and no need of recabling. |
Since I have Maggie 20.7s that require a very strong powerful amp I prefer SS, at this time its a Bryston 4b3. Preamp is a Mcintosh C1100 with NOS driver tubes and a Modwright Elyse DAC also with NOS tubes. This combination produces a very warm, dynamic sound that is amazing. I have never considered a tube amp, I prefer the power and control of a SS amp. |
Agree with much of what has been said here. A bit of twist in the response... equipment quality is more important to the ultimate sound quality in the preamp, whatever you use. Getting the magic sound of tubes is more significant in the power amp. Not to suggest low value in either, just where to put more emphasis. I’ve used Conrad-Johnson gear for years and now run their best preamp with both SS and tube amps. As has been said, each combo has their own sound. I do recommend mono-block amps if possible though. |
Tostadosunidos, I know of two European companies that use the transistor input and output tube approach. Nagra 300i, front end uses bipolar transistors and 300b tube. KR Audio with numerous models MOSFET transistors with a variety of tubes. According to professional reviews and owner’s word of mouth these products sound superb. Both companies believe that the sound character is essentially the output tubes diving/interaction with the speaker. They believe that transistor input stage is very quiet, neutral and transparent, thus very little coloration. Interesting approach and philosophy as most brands approach is the opposite. Just another example achieving high quality sound via a different route. Charles |
I picked up a custom made 'Erhard Audio" tube pre-amp. (formerly 'tube nirvana'). I dont think I will ever change from it. They will make it exactly to your specifications. The sound is PURE and it makes such a difference. I am one of the believers that you need the front (pre-amp) to be able to show your amp how to play it :) |
I'm currently using a transistor preamp and a tube amp. Generally, that's my preference. I've built well over 300 hand crafted tube amps and to me, the amp makes more of a difference. There are no absolutes, such as "It's better this way than that" as I see here. I have no issues telling great differences between amps using the SS preamp that I settled on. I can very much hear all the things I want to hear using a tube amp that way. JGH used to say that the two most important interfaces were amp/speaker and cartridge/tonearm. That was some time ago but that doesn't mean a lot has changed . |
I own a Single Ended amp with 2 power tubes and a single input tube running in Class A (also with a tube rectifier) putting out around 12 watts per side, and have no idea what sort of tube life I should expect. No specs are available from the manufacturer (Dennis Had working away in his lair apparently hand wiring these things himself…maybe with a helper) which is fine with me as the amp is so good, but I still wonder. I run the thing at least 8 hours or so a day…every day…even holidays, unless I'm not at home. |
I think if a tube is on, it's wearing out…I'd like to see what at atmasphere says about this.If it has B+ on it, then that is the case, slower if there is no B+ (filaments degrade over time as well). Al's comments reflect the actual reliability, but in this case a KT120 is in use and in practice they don't seem to hold up as well as the KT88. I suspect that the tubes in this amp will hold up only slightly longer than in an amplifier where the tubes are biased a bit hotter, assuming the tubes don't have a defect which can shorten their life, which many modern tubes do. |
Regarding the statement by Mr. Carver about the 50+ year longevity of the power tubes in his amplifier, I would point out that in general there are statistical approaches that are commonly used in deriving published MTBF (mean time between failure) specifications which produce misleading results. For example, many of the mechanical (non-SSD) hard drives used in computers have published MTBFs of 1,000,000 hours. Or in the case of some Western Digital Gold Drives I recently purchased, 2,000,000 hours. 2,000,000 hours corresponds to 228 years of continuous operation. Does that mean these drives can be expected to last anywhere close to that amount of time? Of course not. What it means (and I'm choosing the following figures for purposes of illustration) is that if say 100 drives are operated simultaneously one of them can be expected to fail after slightly more than 2 years. Similarly, **if** Mr. Carver's 50 year figure is based on similar statistical methodology, and given that there are 12 power tubes in a stereo pair of these amplifiers, it would mean that one tube can expected to fail after a bit more than 4 years. On the other hand, though, if we assume an average of say 1 hour of use of Mr. Carver's amplifier per day his 50 year figure would correspond to 18,250 hours. I suppose that if the tubes are driven very lightly, and his design includes good soft start provisions, numbers approaching that figure might not be totally unreasonable. For example, I recall reading that the Western Electric version of the 300B power tube, when used under recommended conditions, can last for 40,000 hours. (I'm not sure, though, if that applies to the original 1930s version, or to the relatively recent reissue, or to both). In any event, personally I would consider Mr. Carver's claim as simply indicating that the KT120 and KT150 tubes that are offered with the amplifier will last considerably longer than in most other applications. Regards, -- Al |
If the Tube is driving a signal then the Tube will wear more compared to it glowing with the just the heater filament being lit up while waiting for the signal. .The powering on and off does cause some stress to the tube from the Hot/Cold part of that process.I know people with Guitar amps that have NEVER changed a Tube yet..after years of use. |
