So true Al and This is why for quite some time I've subscribed to the "weakest link" concept in regard to audio components/signal chain. Every link along this chain is simply important. Screw up any part of this signal path and you can't make up for it elsewhere.
Charles |
Iscm,
As the level of negative feedback (NFB) is increased the output impedance decreases and damping factor (DF) is increased. Depending on the speakers involved the additional NFB can be beneficial up to a certain point. Generally speaking I believe that the less NFB utilized he more natural and open the sound quality becomes so I understand your listening observations. Some speakers are intentionally designed to work very well with low and even zero NFB amplifiers.
I use a DAC, line stage and power amplifier and all 3 of them are zero NFB designs. The result is a very organic, lively and emotionally engaging sonic character.
Charles |
Danoroo,
Those specification numbers will reveal very little in regard to component sound quality. You must listen and judge by what you hear. Again I find myself agreeing with the wisdom of Jond.
I once owned a Symphonic Line which is a highly regarded German SS amplifier. It had excellent specifications and very good sound. Well my 8 watt SET amplifier took my sound quality and listening enjoyment to a higher tier. The SET's measurements/specifications on paper would be reconsidered clearly inferior to the Symphonic Line.
Numbers said one thing and the ears said another, the ears won decisively. Now its definitely possible you could prefer the SS amp over the SET . My point is that listening is required to make that judgement not test bench results.
Charles |
Danoroo,
As I am sure you realize amplifier selection ultimately comes down to what type of sound character you want. Different topologies and designs have their own sound and presentation. Generally 100 watt tube amplifiers are push pull and very often class AB.
The 3 amplifier examples I mentioned above are
1Lower powered
2 Pure class A rather than class A/B
3 Single end rather than push pull
Either of these broad categories are capable of providing excellent sound quality. It truly depends on what "you" are seeking.
You are fortunate in the sense that your Tektons allow the use of either type of amplifier. In absolute terms there’s no universal "best" choice. Every listener has some degree of bias (I certainly do) as far as what sounds best, it’s all subjectivity pure and simple.
Its a shame that we can’t hear everything we are interested in before buying but that’s the reality in many situations, so reviews and word of mouth opinions are utilized.
As Jond said you have multiple options available due to your speakers.
I’ll say this, the Sophia Electric mono block 845 SET at that price is honestly a fantastic option to consider. Given my past experience of hearing many speakers and amplifiers I believe that the Tektons/845 mono block pairing would be quite special. Usually a good quality 845 SET amplifier new is going to cost 5 or 6 thousand(minimally) and definitely go up from there. These are no nonsense high voltage designs that require very robust output transformers, parts and power supplies. This can’t be done cheaply. Sophia Electric makes very good quality amplifiers.
Best of luck,
Charles |
Danoroo,
Given the Tektons you have, here are 2 other options to consider. Dennis Had 12 watt SEP (KT 88 tube). Wolf Garcia has praised this amplifier a "few" times 😊😊.
Coincident Dynamo MK II version, 8 watt SEP (el 34 tube).
Yes they’re both lower power amplifiers but would mate well with your Tektons (Lores?) . Overall sound quality would be very good.
I must say however the 845 Sophia Electric mono blocks at that price is a genuine bargain if it’s in good condition.
Charles |
Hi Jond,
Nice job finding these amplifiers 😊.
Charles |
Hello Danoroo,
I’m with Jond 100 % with the Sophia Electric 845 SET(not push pull) amplifier and especially at that price! With your Tektons sensitivity and easy to drive characteristics, high volume shouldn’t be an issue. More importantly sound "quality " will be upper tier IMHO.
This is a well regarded manufacturer who utilizes good quality transformers and parts. In terms of true high level sound quality it’s very difficult to better this particular amplifier at this price, very difficult.
Many tube power amplifiers have an autobias feature but for those that do not biasing tubes is a pretty simple task to perform.
Charles |
Danoroo,
The pertinent question has been poised, what’s your budget range for the tube power amplifier you seek? A good quality 100 watt tube amplifier doesn’t have to be necessarily expensive but they won’t be "dirt cheap" either. Good quality engineering, implementation and parts/transformers/power supply do have a cost that’s worth it in the long-term perspective.
Charles |
Danoroo,
I don't believe that the Vicar is a tube amplifier. You may want to explore Rogue Audio and Quicksilver Audio .
Charles |
- Seanheis1, It seems that you have to be very judicious and careful with the employment of negative feedback (NFB). It can provide uber low THD and very high damping factor (DF) measurements that may impress some. The penalty can be dry, clinical and lifeless sound quality. Tread cautiously as it’s a balancing act for certain. Reminds of how some listeners felt about Halcro audio products. Keep in mind that what is considered clinical and lifeless to one may be amazingly accurate and transparent to another. Subjectivity rules.
- Charles
|
Tostadosunidos,
I know of two European companies that use the transistor input and output tube approach.
Nagra 300i, front end uses bipolar transistors and 300b tube.
KR Audio with numerous models MOSFET transistors with a variety of tubes.
According to professional reviews and owner’s word of mouth these products sound superb.
Both companies believe that the sound character is essentially the output tubes diving/interaction with the speaker. They believe that transistor input stage is very quiet, neutral and transparent, thus very little coloration.
Interesting approach and philosophy as most brands approach is the opposite. Just another example achieving high quality sound via a different route.
Charles |
"The other way around can be just as rewarding"
Hifiman5 thanks for sharing this personal revelation. Different types of components can be combined with success.
Charles |
Inna, Yes Ralph is a respected tube equipment manufacturer and yes he offers an informed opinion ( something you’ve yet to demonstrate). He is not however an absolute or infallible source. There are other manufacturers of equal status who would provide different opinions, this seems blatantly evident. Nothing is etched in stone, certainly not matters of audio and sound. Inna you’ve yet to give a coherent answer.
Al your bluntness is understood and appropriate, +2.
Charles |
Hi swampwalker,
Pragmatism is good 😊. If advising someone new to tubes your advice is undoubtedly sound. But if this person asked which impacts the system "more" then tube amplifier. Swampwalker what's been the case in your own experience?
Thanks,
Charles |
Ralph you of course make a compelling case for tube preamp and tube amplifier (which is my chosen route). The OP is asking which component would yield more of the tube character or effect on the audio system.
Your argument for the tube preamp advantages I surely understand. However in the context proposed by the OP I would go SS Pre/tube amplifier rather than tube preamp/SS amplifier. Obviously as this interesting thread has demonstrated preferences are all over the proverbial map. This is as expected in this subjective realm.
Charles |
Al,
Thanks for your kind words. I have the same thoughts regarding inna. It's perfectly fine if he doesn't want to go a particular route with certain components. However it's the dogmatic stance that this approach is BS, how so? What informs this conclusion?:That people have done SS preamps/tube amps very effectively is counter to a BS result.
Charles |
Inna,
Wolf is correct, if the outcome of a pairing of components sounds good then that pairing is by default good. The sonic/sound quality "outcome" is what matters . Components are just the conduit to get you there regardless of their make up.
Charles |
The objective is to assemble a fine sounding audio system. My point is simply that there are numerous ways of doing this successfully. I went with one brand (Coincident) and their all tube components. This approach worked out very fine but so do other alternatives.
I can appreciate you’d never combine SS preamp with a tube amplifier, that’s your call. I was providing examples of two very experienced and knowledgeable people (Al and Wolf) who’ve done this successfully. The Koda and Wavac is a hypothetical match that would be excellent sounding in my opinion. Many roads get you to Rome 😊.
It may not make sense to you but it understandably makes sense to others.
Charles |
Inna,
Both Al and Wolf use SS preamps with tube power amplifiers and I have no question that their sound quality is stellar.
Here’s an example Robert Koda preamp(SS) with Wavac amplifier (tube). Bet that this would sound superb.
Charles |
Preamps have to drive the amplifier so consideration to proper impedance matching is needed. Once addressed a high quality tube or SS preamp should both perform well in the sense of "driving" the amplifier. listeners will then decide which sonic presentation they prefer. Power amps must contend with driving a speaker’s load which is the more daunting task in most cases. the differences between tube versus SS output devices are more prominent and stark. This is largely responsible for why I believe the power amp is the more crucial variable given its interaction with the speaker load. Preamp driving power amp is less demanding. As Al mentioned benign speaker loads, this compared to a difficult speaker load has definite implications regarding the chosen amplifier .My point is you’ll hear the tube/SS differences with the power amp and due to their innate sonic distinctions.
|
I generally agree that as you approach very high levels of design and implementation the distinction between tube and SS is diminished (but does not disappear). I find this narrowing more so for preamps rather than power amplifiers (the gulf is larger). This is why I have found tube amps more of a difference factor than tube preamps which can sound more like their SS counterparts. The tube amps seem to impart more of the flesh on the bone or 3 D palpability aspect.
Charles |
+2 Keith. I have beard virtually every type of combination of tube and transistor components over the years. IMO tubes impart more overall sonic influence via power amplifiers than as preamplifiers. I suspect I'm in the minority and most responses will favor the preamp 😊. Both obviously matter but I find that the amplifier is dominant. I am using tube pre and power amplifier.
Charles |
