@bugredmachine, I sometimes resort to using a pair of closed-back headphones to eliminate the rooms acoustic signature as a sanity check. I find it a great help.
Footers under new speakers
Hi , I’m seeking advice regarding footers and/or platforms under my speakers. I purchased Tekton Double Impact’s and have heavy shag carpet and padding over a cement slab floor. House is 35 years old, cement is thick and well cured. I’m from that old mindset of spikes into cement and I am looking for an improvement. I’ve looked online at Gaia footers and Herbie's Studded Giant Gliders. I emailed Herbie’s and specifically inquired about the studded gliders alone on the DI’s over carpet. I asked about stability and was told the speakers were “ heavy enough “. Unfortunately I just set up the DI’s temporarily to get a little break in time. They are without any footers upright on my carpet. At 115 lbs the speaker does about zero to compress the carpet. I understand weight Vs footprint is abysmal but they won’t even stand straight. I’ll probably put the spikes on for a bit until I formulate a plan. But my first concern is that Herbie’s gliders alone are not enough and due to the minimum cost of the speakers I am struggling with purchasing Gaia’s footers and footer spikes. The seismic stands look exceptional, but I’m trying to be frugal. So I’m looking for suggestions like, gliders or dots with or without spikes on wood / stone plinths spiked to the floor. My goal is to try some sort decoupling (Gliders / Springs / Dots) AND eliminate the need of having to rely on the carpet being compressed. And yes I have cheap speakers and seek a cheap solution, so I get that limitation. Unfortunately I can’t afford Tannoy’s or Fynes to compliment my 180 watt tube mono blocs for at least a year. Cheers , Mike B.
233 responses Add your response
@buellrider97, congratulations on the Townshends. Something that may interest you are the very affordable Vibrapods at about $30 a set/4 I first tried some under my Oppo and the results surprised me which lead me to buying a Townshend Platform to replace the pods which improved the sound further. These are available in sizes from 1 - 5 to match the weight of the component. I now have No. 1s under my line stage and No. 2s under my Wadia, actually preferring them to Isoacoustics Oreas. |
I saw you mentioned looking at room acoustics. I just completed a two week re-do of my treatments in my TN 2023 room trying to attack my response curve and flatten it. I made some interesting observations and am now making some further adjustments that go against the common recommendations. It is a balancing act between performance and trying to avoid a complete studio look, aesthetics-wise, and sound. Most folks would probably listen to my room and say it sounds great, and it does, but I want the response to be flatter because as an engineer I can't seem to put my pencil down. Room modes are very cumbersome to say the least. Safe biking! |
@buellrider97 DELIGHTED to hear this. I'm really impressed by your meticulous testing and by the customer service. Well done! I have tried the platforms with every speaker I've owned. When the weight was right, I even put bookshelves-on-stands on them (in addition to towers). It makes a difference every time. |
@bugredmachine , Hi thanks for your input. Most here are way ahead of me, and I’m grateful for all the input. I’m especially appreciative of the friendly atmosphere totally free of judgement. This has been a 180* change in thinking for me and I plan on trying a few of the other products. Regards , Mike B. |
@prof . Yes , thanks again. I studied your pictures and even saved them to my phone for future reference. You’ve put considerable time and thought into what you’ve done. One thing I noticed with the Townsends is everything improved, but I have some glare/reflection that wasn’t present before. I attribute this to an overall gain in performance from an underpowered amp I’m using interim until I finish our remodel and get out my big stuff. At that time everything will be situated differently and after some speaker placement fine tuning I’ll focus on room acoustics. I have high hard sloped ceilings and I’m getting reflections with the increased gain in my current situation. Cheers, Mike B. |
I just changed out Gaia's for Stack Auva 100's and am very pleased with 2 things that improved: 1) Tone - the tone of voices and instruments jumped up nicely. Maybe it is clarity, but my brain said tone. 2) Bass - it got punchier, less blurry, not sure the exact frequencies, but the Wilsons punch more and seem more engaged. Great folks to deal with and after researching these they make more sense than Gaias. Gaias isolate, the Auvas absorb. |
I’m very glad it worked out for you so well !
I started off using some cheap spring footers from Amazon just to try bring isolation under my Thiel speakers. As I mentioned, I was impressed enough with the changes that I moved on to ordering the Townsend isolation bars.
I found that with the cheap spring footers underneath my Thiel speakers it changed the tonality a bit more than I liked, and I figured that was likely attributed to the way those footers raised the height of the speakers as well. I liked the idea that the Townshend bars were designed to not raise the speaker height substantially.
And they worked as promised that way. They changed the tonality less than the cheaper footers.
Though interestingly, it was a different case for what I ended up with under my Joseph audio speakers - the marble platform I built. In that case, I actually ended up enjoying the speakers being raised substantially - about 6 inches above the ground. They maintain their tonality really well even raised up that high, but there’s also the bonus of the higher and broader and more realistic sized sound stage.
So different speakers, different solution solutions. |
@pindac , Yes I hear you. I’m not sure what I will do in regards to cabinet resonance at this point. But first I’ll be looking at proper placement/ set up for my speakers. That will be after my remodel when I move to a different wall and have the room to place my speakers 2-4 ft off the back wall to optimize positioning. After some initial setup I’ll get a mic and software to measure the sound in the room and begin some room treatment. After that I’ll probably look hard at my cabinet resonance, but I’m not ready to modify my cabinets at this point in time, but I get it. So thank you for your suggestions as they are certainly applicable to where I’m at. Happy Listening, Mike B. |
@noromance , Hi , thanks for the info. In purchasing the Townsends I pretty much went from zero to one hundred overlooking a lot of good stuff, point taken. I have a modded Thorens TD-180 with a Grado cartridge. Your TT is fabulous and you are light years ahead of me and I appreciate the direction. When my kitchen remodel is done and the dust settles I’ll begin the new setup. So I’m looking at a rack/shelf, something like Timber Nation. I’m cost driven , so I might build something and go from there. I have my TT , DAC, Streamer, CD transport, all the usual stuff. My new pre and power amps are about 55bs X 3 pieces , so I’m looking at decoupling 7-8 items. I’ll definitely try what you recommended and I started to read your previous thread. To be cost effective and experiment I will probably try multiple combinations of affordable stuff like repurposed cutting boards and marble or quartz. The springs you mentioned , some pods , maybe absorbing materials like mats. For a few hundred dollars and a few hand tools I should be able to come up with some methods that yield improvement and have fun doing so. Thanks for your guidance, Mike B. |
@buellrider97 Thanks for the update. Glad it worked out for you. I'm not sure if I sent you this but you might check out my thread from 2020 on springs under turntables etc. |
@buellrider97 It is great that the impact of the change was recognised immediately for the positive Influence and the negative influences. The challenge now is to relax down and really get to grips with what is in place and what it is able to produce as an End Sound. Later down the line the following in the list from Item 5 an ascending comes into play to eke out the extras. The Room might need a bit of thought about managing the energies in transit, Produced Sound should only reach ones ears once only, ot should certainly not be heard as a reflected sound within a listening space. _____________________________________________________________ What have I learnt over the years: 1, A selection of Cabinets tried out are not able to be tamed, the Cabinet Influence is always to be present even though reduced in its effect, when mounted on a particular configuration for a Sub Support. 2, A selection of Cabinets tried out are tamed, the Cabinet Influence is not present when mounted on a particular configuration for a Sub Support. In a selection of used Speakers a Weight Placed on the Top of the Cabinet and positioned in different resting points can be the added treatment to tame the Cabinet in use. 3, A Speaker can really deliver in a way that is extremely competitive to the used ESL when the Support Plinth Configuration, added treatment and Speaker Positioning is given a variety of set ups. Certain Set Ups have enabled the Speaker to excel beyond its offerings when used as a Basic / Typical Set Up. 4, A Cabinet Speaker when either on a Stand or Floor Standing is able to present much improved as a result of introducing a Sub Support produced as a certain configuration. 5, The most difficult part is the positioning of the Speaker within the listening Space. This has to be worked with and records taken of the positioning being used. Using a Decorators 3" Masking Tape as a demarcation on the Floor is ideal, it can also be Pencil / Pen demarcated produce easy to use incremental changes for an orientation. Taking dimensions to local structures from the Cabinet, i.e adjacent Walls, Dimension from Listening Chair to plane of speakers. These combinations of dimensions are the records to be kept. as when the real hot spot is being discovered, small increments can really hone in on the End Sounds Impression able to be made, i.e an instrument or vocal can easily be missing if the final tweaks are not meticulous. 6, Symmetry of the Toe In is very important, accuracy of a dimension that is not to low mm's, can diminish or accentuate a certain sound, i.e, a Vocal Harmony can have a Tonal Parity or one Voice has the most noticeable presence, backing vocal can be very very far back vocals. 7, The Cabinet Side Wall being Vertically Plumb is critical and checked periodically to tweak to correction as this can slip? i.e, possibly movement occurs as the load settles. 8, The Front Baffle is rarely vertical Plumb in a Speaker I set Up, depending on the Speaker Cabinet Dimension, I have had cabinets set 70mm leaning forward. In general the Cabinets are leaning between 10mm - 40mm and that can be the front baffle leaning towards the listener or away from the listener. Raising the height of a Speaker and then working with it, has never proved a negative for myself. As stated in earlier posts, I use a Five Tier Sub Support, which elevated the Speaker. _______________________________________________________________ |
@steakster , Thanks , I’ll be picking some up tomorrow when I go for air filters. You’re the 3rd person to recommend these. FWIT I just ordered approx 1000 sqft of glue down oak hardwood flooring. This part of the room is 18’x18’, I’m on the fence about wood Vs new carpeting. If I do go new carpet it’s going to be shorter and greater density, maybe wool Berber type. Thanks again , Mike |
OP: In order to tweak speaker placement on my thick pile carpeting, I put these furniture sliders under my Townshend podiums. They’re a perfect fit under the pods - and slide very easily. Since they don’t affect the SQ, I left them underneath. (The socks are only for bare floors.) - - - - Re: benefit/cost ratio. If 20 years ago, someone said that over 50% of my future system cost would be for cables and power conditioning, I would have said they were crazy. Yet, they would have been right. 🤔 |
@trecool99 , Hi I was able to get them delivered new for what I’ve seen them for used. I had a conversation with Tough Nuts and they recommended the cylinders for my Tektons due to size. I’m going to get a set for my Zu Omens after I finish this project and set up a rig with the ZU’s for my wife on the oak hardwood we’re putting in the den. I’m considering making some amp bases with the pointed footers too. I’d appreciate it if you hit me with an update after you try them. When I installed the Townsends the bass became 80% absent and I was very concerned. However the 3” diameter footers settled into the carpet and John their rep made it clear that I could raise them a significant amount totally clearing the carpet. . After that bass came back and improved drastically. It’s fuller , smoother and I lost a boom I was having at a frequency I had not yet measured. I’m only running a 50 wpc amp and I can rattle the stove in the kitchen. I huge part of taking the leap at that price point was the carpet. This was the only device I was comfortable trying without spikes. Regards, Mike. |
Congrats! Glad they worked out for you. It's a lot of money for them to not be what you hoped for. I just placed an order for the Tough Nut cylinders and price is more that reasonable, which is a breath of fresh air when it comes to HiFi tweaks. My Isoacoustics Gaia footers sucked too much bass weight to my liking so off to the used market they go. |
@sls883 , I totally get it , as it went totally against my thinking. However after reading for the past few years over and over again I just had to trust. I’ve done some serious tube rolling and this was bigger. Over the past few years I’ve closely watched members that are open minded and have put extensive research and time exploring isolation, decoupling and room treatments. Hilde45 is a perfect example of someone that has spent hundreds of hours experimenting with various gear and methods. I’ve tried to focus on the people that have modest priced gear as I can’t afford a $100k system. This is why I’m here and I’ve actually made a few friends along the way. Cheers , Mike B. |
@buellrider97 Interesting findings. I just can't really fathom the science behind the Townshend (or other footers), but apparently it works. I'm happy that it worked for you. If I spend any money on audio, I'm also considering the level 3 upgrade for my Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL preamp. It's about the same cost. |
@ghdprentice @jsalerno277 @052rc @slaw , @dekay @noromance @hilde45 @sls883 , @tomcarr @ronboco , @goose , @wswright20 @trecool99 , @emergingsoul Good afternoon gentleman, the Townsends arrived a Monday. My order took 3 1/2 weeks using the Townsend ad on AGON. John is the rep for Townsend and he’s been OUTSTANDING! We’ve had numerous emails and he even called me from England. He’s 110 % dedicated to customer satisfaction and absolutely fantastic to work with. I had ZERO ISSUES with tariffs, duties or shipping through DHL. I’d like to thank everyone for your help. During this thread I had many side discussions and between what was recommended and the additional discussions, I came to the conclusion that the Townsends were favored. That being said I was still apprehensive due to the price , and all I can say is PM me for specifics. So the bottom line is they are an ABSOLUTE IMPROVEMENT PERIOD! Being of the old mindset spikes are superior, I had to take a leap of faith out of my comfort zone. This was based on your recommendations to me. I went straight to the Townsends and have not tried anything else. So here’s my experience and results. I purchased the Tekton DI’s new last month. They arrived and I ran them for the first week without the supplied spikes on my thick carpet. Keep in mind we’re also in a break in period. The first week I ran the speakers on the carpet and they could easily be swayed when I touched them. They settled in and sounded pretty good considering they were new and too close to the wall. Week two I spiked the speakers and put them in the same location. I could now hear cabinet resonances that weren’t there before. I think sitting bare bottom on the carpet stopped this. So now I have hollow sounding speakers and less bass that’s booming. After about 3 days I made sure the spikes were absolutely into the concrete and using a level set the speakers. I then took a pair of 10lb dumbbells and using a small towel put one on each speaker front to rear placement. All of this almost got me back to “ No Spikes “. At this point the Townsends had not arrived , but this was my first window into the possibility that decoupling will be an improvement. So now I have the Townsends and I’m home alone. So I mark the floor with masking tape again and move the speakers. I remove the factory spikes and realize the blind nuts in the cabinets stick out about 1/16” and I’m alone. So I took a piece of Kraft Paper slightly larger than the speaker and tape it by the edge to the podiums. I set the podiums in place and slide the speakers in place. I didn’t want to mar the finish and the paper was the least invasive idea besides tape. Now with the speakers in the same location as before I gave it a try. At first it sounded mid range forward with a huge reduction in bass. I was really dismayed and thought this was a huge mistake. As I let the music play I followed the instructions and began to lift the platforms. They shipped at their lowest height and they were resting in the carpet and the 3” footers needed to settle in. Over the next hour I went in 1/2 turn increments until I had 2 1/2 turns into them and also the footers pushed way down in the carpet. I left for the evening at this point and left the music on at about 55 db. On the way home John called from England and gave me some additional instruction, what service ! At this point they had played for about 6 hours and I took my bubble and leveled them. So what do they sound like ? Wow ! And Holy Sh*T ! They are absolutely fantastic and transformational. Keep in mind I’m on the wrong wall and the speakers need about 2 more feet off the back wall. However bass is twice what it was with spikes. It is fuller and smoother and at the same setting on my pre now rattles the walls. The mid is fuller and more open. The treble is cleaner and more defined. The soundstage is considerably larger and more detailed. I’d also like to point out that the Tektons involved here are going to be paired with Rogue M-180’s , and a balanced preamp. However for this I’ve been running a Rogue RP-1 and a modded Akikita 50 wpc ops amp. Prior to the Townsends I was limited to about 75-80 db as not to have clipping. What I noticed is that there was such a huge improvement that it actually overcame the many shortcomings of this amp. The Townsends are truly a night and day difference and I can only imagine the increase I’ll experience with my other gear. In closing I have to say I’m a believer in decoupling Vs spikes. I trusted your imput and I’m a believer having heard the difference. When I set up the new gear I’ll probably decouple my TT and at least my pre and DAC. I’ve received great improvement and advise. I’ll probably step back and try the Auva, Tuffnutts, and Herbis products for my other needs. So many thanks to all , and especially John at Townsend. And you can reach him through the AGON ad in their sales section. Regards , Mike B. |
@goose , Hi thanks again for your comments. I love your rig and am considering a similar rack to yours. Another random thought is this, my speakers are Tektons which have very basic MDF cabinets. I noticed when I went from just sitting on the carpet to spikes installed I created a noticeable amount of cabinet resonance. My thoughts are with my un spiked Tektons sitting on the carpet , their weight rested on the entire bottom surface which was pushed into the carpet. The spikes now lifted the cabinets off the dampened effect of the carpet and allowed the vibration to exist in the cabinets possibly exaggerated but transmitting through the blind nuts that hold them. In looking at a very high end speaker enclosure like a Wilson there are multiple layers of various materials to prevent this. Mine is simply a MDF box with blind nuts. Also when I get the Townsends I can set the bare speakers directly on them. I will experiment with some type of mat material also. Regards , Mike. |
@signaforce , @goose . Yes that’s an interesting video. FWIT , I’m looking at the Gaia spikes to try in conjunction with some other items. The Townsends that I will be trying have a flat foot and sliders have been recommended and if size allows maybe the Gaia spikes. I plan on trying them on the carpet , but also on a spiked platform due to my carpet. Based on all the contributing comments, I plan on trying multiple approaches with different combinations. I will probably carry this over to component isolation/ decoupling. It’s been interesting to see all the things tried like hockey pucks, butcher blocks, marble slabs , mdf, ect. So thank you for your contributions gentlemen. Regards, Mike B. |
@signaforce this is a recent video on isolation footers on Steve Guttenbergs channel and I thought it was well done. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAOD3aUfIYQ&t=629s |
Interesting discussion. I have R11’s and Rythmik F12SE sub on a 2nd floor wood frame house with very heavy cut pile carpeting and padding. My system is jammed with fractions of an inch between speakers, rack (low/long) and sub, so have no room for platforms. Windows and walls limited. |
@prof I wrote a long post earlier in the Thread. On reviewing your supplied Images I can see there are similarities for the methodologies we have selected for a Sub Support chosen for the Speakers. The Backward Tilt is not strange to myself, as nor is the forward tilt. I'm sensing the 'Toe In' is also arranged to be optimised to the listening set up. My set up is in a room that is solely used for Audio Purposes, which leaves me the options to use materials that are not as aesthetically neat finished as your own. We do share a like for similar materials in the assembly of the Sub Support. |
@pcrhkr Hi , interesting thoughts on JBL’s and drums. I have some 4312A’s that aren’t really that nice for home stereo. They are paired with Sound Anchor stands in an attempt to recapture my teen years. It was a big disappointment and a waste of funds. I’m totally unversed on the modern Audiophile products like the Everest and such. Of the Old stuff my most impressive experience was with Westlake BBSM -15’s that a friend had in his living room. That being said my thoughts are about “ drum kicks “ and overall bass. My brother is a talented amateur rock drummer with quality gear and I’ve grown up attending rock concerts. At home I’ve had success recreating decent bass that can roll on and off without that one tone boom. But what has been a struggle is that hit you in the chest drum kick. Looking back on a few random live shows I remember Supertramp in a theater remodeled for concerts. I inquired later about the fantastic sound quality and was told “ ATC “ speakers and thousands of watts. Another was ZZ Top outdoor small venue at my local fairgrounds. There were huge JBL arrays hanging from above with thousands of watts of power. The other was Green Day doing the American Idiot tour at a huge indoor arena, again huge power. I’m not that knowledgeable but my guess is there is that threshold with the appropriate speakers and enough power to get the air moving with enough force to hit you in the chest at that distance and create that effect. I hear about overhung and underhung drivers , damping factor within wattage and I kinda get it. My brother that drums takes me to the closed door seminars at his favorite drum shop. I’ve sat there and heard Tommy Aldridge , Carmine Appice and Kenny Aranoff amongst others play and Wow ! Tommy on those oversized Yamahas and Carmine’s brute power on my brothers Tama’s is totally gut wrenching. But in my modestly funded adventures I’ve not achieved that at my house, although the Westlakes I mentioned with 700 wpc bi amped came pretty close. Anyway, just some random thoughts and thanks for your comments. I have a lot to learn. Regards, Mike B. |
@prof , Thank you , Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to write your post . I will definitely learn from all the effort you put into finding what works for you, under your circumstances. You have invested hundreds of hours to find out. I appreciate people like you and Hilde45 who have put in the time to find out. You both have a curiosity and an open mind. The whole point in my post is for me to alter my mindset and I’ve asked for and received great advice. What I try to avoid is the closed mindset and especially knowing my truth will probably be similar but not identical to others. What I avoid is for example “ Power cords make Zero difference”. Then someone makes that same blanket statement every single time as if that absolutely applies to every other person. FWIT I peaked to see if you had a posted system but I noticed a post you had about 12AX7 and 12AU7 substitutes. I read it because I’m at that point with the amps that are new to me. I just pulled the nos Telefunken 12AX7’s and put in GE 5 Star 12AT7’s , after trying new production Tung Sol 5751’s. Next up will be Sylvania Gold label in 12AT7, or 12AY7. Regards , Mike B. |
I tried a TON of different footers and materials underneath my loudspeakers. First under my Thiel 2.7s, but I tried even more under my Joseph Audio Perspective 2s.
I tried to soft footers , spikes, various pucks, Springs, and MDF platform I built which sandwich some sorbothane isolation material, I raised height with cedar post caps, hockey pucks etc. and I tried all sorts of variations and combinations. My speakers sit on a carpet which is laid over a wood floor. The spring footers essentially is isolated the speakers pretty much totally from the floor. But when I found, I didn’t ultimately care for the results I realized that I wanted some level of coupling to the floor, and yet still some gains in the sound from the speakers. I consulted with some people who actually worked in resonance control and they pointed out that even if you’re working with something like a granite bass, you’re not totally getting rid of vibrations or resonances - you’re essentially just pushing around resonances to different frequencies. So I could play with that. And that’s what I was doing I felt essentially finding a combination that I liked, and that I felt improved the sound. It was fascinating because depending on how I oriented the same materials, it would change the sound. For instance, and one combination I had the speakers on a sheet of granite, below the granite was a hockey puck on each corner, then the thin isoacoustics carpet spikes, and those carpet spikes were going into another hockey puck which was on the floor. So essentially below the granite at each corner or two hockey pucks sandwiching spikes, and the last thing the “ floor saw” was the rubber hockey puck. That was more isolating from the floor - produced more of a disappearing speaker act for the bass, a really big airy sound. Though a little lighter in tonality than I wanted. But if I simply reverse the materials at the bottom , made it a stack of two hockey pucks sitting on the iso acoustics spikes, so the spikes were going directly into the floor, then that clearly coupled everything more to the floor, and it changed the bass character and the overall tonality. Bass was a little bit richer, puncher, and rounder and the overall tone slightly darkened and got amazing smooth and “ free of hash.” I liked the higher and more open and realistic soundstage with the speakers raised something like 4 inches. But with certain combinations, it was a little bit too airy and bright. With other combinations, I could get a little bit too dark and lose a little bit of “ golden glow” tonality I like from my CJ amplifiers. Once I tried different combinations and found things to like in each, I kept going until I got the best combination of all: Joseph Perspectives with Isoacoustics Gaia on the back. The front is raised on the supplied Joseph outriggers and spikes (there was a problem and that I couldn’t take off the spikes to put Gaia on), but those front spikes go into hockey pucks in the front, which raised the angle perfectly. All that is a top a granite platform I had built : two one and a quarter inch slabs with sound damping material in between them forming a sandwich (damping material used for cars). It’s incredibly dead to the knuckle rap test. And then that granite platform is sitting on hockey pucks at each corner, and the hockey pucks are sitting on the Isoacoustic carpet spikes into the rug/wood floor. With this combination, the speakers are raised something like 6 inches high , which gives a huge, expensive realistic sound stage size. And yet the sound is not light weight at all - it has the golden glow, but incredibly smooth and free of any hash or grain whatsoever, really “ black background”, the bass is really punchy and warm but at the same time the tightest bass I’ve ever had from these speakers - it changes chameleon like with recordings. And the speakers totally disappear. The speakers are about 8 feet apart , and I sit between seven and 8 feet away, at this point, I’m sitting 7 feet away. And I use a curved diffuser in between and behind the loudspeakers which adds some more sonic density to the images. My pal who reviews ultra audio gear for soundstage came over for a lesson once I had everything dialled in and he was shocked. Like as soon as the music started, he said “WTF? How did you do this?” He said the sound was so incredibly expensive and immersive but with incredibly palpable sonic images, bass that energized the room but which was really tight, and upper frequencies that were “ just buttery smooth like I could listen all day no matter how loud.” He felt it was one of the best systems he’s heard. That was satisfying to hear. Anyway, after that long description, here are some photos you can click on . Certainly doesn’t look like anything special: https://i.postimg.cc/HnBN1TFF/IMG-3862.webp https://i.postimg.cc/Hk7K8wgj/IMG-4289.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/fbZCgfNV/IMG-2401.jpg
|
@prof – I read it as "solidity." So much is dictated by folks these days, I just go with my best guess as to what they meant! |
@pcrhkr Precisely why isolation or vibration control devices may be robbing you of that bass sound/feel that you may like. The claim is to clean up and make bass more focused but at what cost? Sure measurements can show a frequency response but how do you measure weight and impact? |
The thing about bass. I found Mid Fi JBLs will pound at mid bass kick like few others. The more expensive JBLs do good throughout the spectrum. Other speakers have a low resonance at lower volume levels with more of a majestic deep bass sound. Klipsch are tight and a room shaker at higher spl. A drum kicker, but not a deep bass from what I have heard. Others, need a sub woofer. All sound different and everyone has that favorite bass sound. All can sound great and depends on your favorite bass. It's what you like that matters. |
Super interesting point that I'd never considered. Thanks @prof |
I recently posted this link to an excellent article on this subject from the March 2022 edition of Positive Feedback in a different thread, but hopefully it can find some appreciation here as well: Ten Misconceptions about Loudspeaker Spikes The article is well written by the senior technical editor of PF and contains concise explanations for all points. Here is the article summary:
|
@prof , I’m trying to picture what you are using. So marble with spikes as a platform and speakers with Gaia’s on top of that ? Any pics available ? Thanks , Mike B. |
@gavman I have had Stacked ESL 57's as the mainstay speaker for many many years. In conjunction with these as a means to create an alternative end sound, I have used Cabinet Speakers as both Stand Mount and Floor Standers throughout many many years. It is the use of Cabinet Speakers that got me interested in removing Cabinet Influences and being able to identify the location of the source of the End Sound being produced. ESL Speakers are quite capable of not being present in the room, there is not a source for the sound that is easily located, my ears at this stage in my life has it as not locatable. This for my own purposes id very very attractive and is wanted to be available from all Speakers in use. What have I learnt over the years: 1, A selection of Cabinets tried out are not able to be tamed, the Cabinet Influence is always to be present even though reduced in its effect, when mounted on a particular configuration for a Sub Support. 2, A selection of Cabinets tried out are tamed, the Cabinet Influence is not present when mounted on a particular configuration for a Sub Support. In a selection of used Speakers a Weight Placed on the Top of the Cabinet and positioned in different resting points can be the added treatment to tame the Cabinet in use. 3, A Speaker can really deliver in a way that is extremely competitive to the used ESL when the Support Plinth Configuration, added treatment and Speaker Positioning is given a variety of set ups. Certain Set Ups have enabled the Speaker to excel beyond its offerings when used as a Basic / Typical Set Up. 4, A Cabinet Speaker when either on a Stand or Floor Standing is able to present much improved as a result of introducing a Sub Support produced as a certain configuration. 5, The most difficult part is the positioning of the Speaker within the listening Space. This has to be worked with and records taken of the positioning being used. Using a Decorators 3" Masking Tape as a demarcation on the Floor is ideal, it can also be Pencil / Pen demarcated produce easy to use incremental changes for an orientation. Taking dimensions to local structures from the Cabinet, i.e adjacent Walls, Dimension from Listening Chair to plane of speakers. These combinations of dimensions are the records to be kept. as when the real hot spot is being discovered, small increments can really hone in on the End Sounds Impression able to be made, i.e an instrument or vocal can easily be missing if the final tweaks are not meticulous. 6, Symmetry of the Toe In is very important, accuracy of a dimension that is not to low mm's, can diminish or accentuate a certain sound, i.e, a Vocal Harmony can have a Tonal Parity or one Voice has the most noticeable presence, backing vocal can be very very far back vocals. 7, The Cabinet Side Wall being Vertically Plumb is critical and checked periodically to tweak to correction as this can slip? i.e, possibly movement occurs as the load settles. 8, The Front Baffle is rarely vertical Plumb in a Speaker I set Up, depending on the Speaker Cabinet Dimension, I have had cabinets set 70mm leaning forward. In general the Cabinets are leaning between 10mm - 40mm and that can be the front baffle leaning towards the listener or away from the listener. Raising the height of a Speaker and then working with it, has never proved a negative for myself. As stated in earlier posts, I use a Five Tier Sub Support, which elevated the Speaker. I have also used double stacked AT 616 Suspension Footers, but the configuration is not creating anything that can be claimed is discernible as the impact on the End Sound. I have also Spiked onto the AT 616 Footers and that does create change to the End Sound that is discernible. More is achieved in my trials by adding a Sub Plinth and a Particular Separator under and Above the Sub Plinth. Even More is achieved through the use of 2 Sub Plinths with an additional Separator, making a Five Tier Sub Support. The Link contains a Post from myself, that adds to the Options on how a Suspension Support can be produced. |
@prof My point exactly as I posted before when it comes to bass density and punch. Do you have a picture of your setup? Which spikes did you use under your marble platforms on carpet? Sounds like you gained quite a bit of height with this setup? |
As I’ve indicated before… I tried and abandoned the Townsend Isolation Bars for my speakers.
The way I see it , we audiophiles are constantly looking for the next upgrade and more “ insight” into the recording.
And the other thing is that once you become an audiophile one of the things you often get a new perspective on is bass: nobody wants to go back to the dreaded “one note bass” that’s so many of us grew up thinking was awesome in crappy systems. And so audiophiles chase and chase ever tighter bass, and wanting the speaker to disappear including in the bass region as much as possible. I also went that way…at one point evening out the bass response in my room using dual subwoofers, a great crossover and room DSP. I abandoned that because I found my speakers more pleasing without it.
And then I tried tons of different footers and materials underneath my speakers including the Townshend product.
And yes, I got more of a disappearing act from the speakers, tighter and more holographic bass.
But in the chase for ever more holographic tight bass, I found I lost with me is highly valuable: a sense of density, punch and salinity to the sound.
The more I made my speaker speakers sound “ invisible” the more they reminded me of an electrostatics, which I abandoned years ago because I found the sound a bit too ghostly.
That’s why I ended up trying to find a halfway point between tightening up the bass and improving the sound of the speakers in my room, while not losing that density and punch. Which for me was a combination of materials which included is acoustic Gaias and a custom made marble bass, as well as carpet spikes. Carefully dialled in that combination got me what I want.
But of course, I still totally understand. Peoples enthusiasm for the Townsend products (I still use their pods underneath my turntable).
And if somebody were looking to improve base response and have their speakers disappear more, if they can afford it, I would say the top choice would be Townsend. |
| Post removed |
@pcrhkr , Thanks this is interesting. If you scroll back a bit and look at @wswright20’s post he mentions doing the same. Also check out his gear page and see he’s essentially doing the same with 285 lb speakers. I’ll probably try that this week with my spikes ( if they don’t pierce through ) and with the raw cabinets. When my Townsends arrive in a week or two I’ll try them. Then I’ll probably try the Townsends with the furniture gliders again as wswright20 has done. Cheers , Mike B. |
My tower speakers weigh 85lbs each. This sounds funny, but give it a try, it worked for me. I have carpet on a cement slab as well. The funny is I tried spiked plastic furniture grips that have adhesive I got at Walmart cheap. They have no problem holding the weight with one square on each corner. I move the speakers when needed for cleaning with furniture sliders under the spikes. Works slick. You could easily double them up for heavier speakers. The spikes isolate from the floor, yet stable. I would not have used this cheap solution if it had not improved the sound or were not stable. Or, you can spend hundreds of dollars not knowing just how good this works. :) |
@waldenpond , Small world ! My fathers memorial plaque is next to the Crows Nest Restaurant. There are about 6-7 plaques that helped fund the seating area with the nautical star. If you look over at the Pink house on the point , I’ve stayed in the gray and yellow houses next to it. I have relatives that have a house backed into the upper harbor. To some SC is seen as gritty and raw, but to me it’s alive and overflowing with some of the best people and best times I’ve ever had. My dads ashes went in at Oneils one foggy morning 20 plus years ago and I’ll be rolling with the Orcas in the Canyon. And I do “ Pack my Trash “ 😎 Mike. |
@gavman , Hi I like the Gaias too. The big hang up is the carpet. I have zero experience hence this post. The feedback I get from people that are not budget restricted are Townsends with Gaias very close. I’ve been fortunate to have side conversations with people I respect who have used both and it’s about 2-1 for Townsends. I like the looks of the Auva’s with spikes too. I’m waiting on the arrival of the Townsends and based on the overwhelming positive reviews and the large footprint I’m choosing them. I’m starting to step out if MidFi and the closed minded idea that spikes are the best. I have enough gear for 2-3 modest systems and will be trying ToughNutt cylinders and maybe the pointed footers on some isolation platforms. So probably Herbies , Auva’s and ToughNutt over the next year. The Gias might get sidestepped due to cost. Also I went directly to Townsend and they gave me a generous price through AGON. Cheers, Mike B. |
