Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board is the material to investigate in place of any other Board Materials to support a device.
A Board of the dimension required to support a Monoblock Amp will be similar in cost to Butcher Block of a similar dimension.
Consider this same material for when designing the shelving to be used on the Racks to be produced. Alternatively the Rack design can be using more common board materials as a Shelve. A Sub Plinth Board to be used with a Barry Diament Design can be a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board.
A DIY Rack can have increased dimensions between shelves and a BD design can sit on the Racks Shelves, this should open up the options to mimic some of the Companies supplying Audio Racks designs, as has already been made known as being investigated.
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MDF is not the material being suggested.
MDF has a very poor measuring Damping / Dissipation of 0.017.
0.017 is a value that has a very very little Intrinsic Property to prevent Transferred Amplitude from migrating through the material.
Brands to think about are Panzerholz and Permali.
Look at a Taiko DAIZA Sub Plinth, but to not concern oneself with the rebate pattern that is used in their base of the Board.
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The Link showing the Speaker Build shows a method selected as a Sub Support to suspend the Speaker, using a Vibration Control Footer and a Bridging Bar to connect the VC Footers.
A little bot of extra though can really tidy these up aesthetically if one needs to have bling with their equipment.
https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/my-troels-gravesen-the-loudspeaker-3-build.303400/
The Link is showing the designs available from the Producer of the VC Footers seen in use.
https://www.christiegrey.com/industrial/enclosed-spring-mountings/
My suggestion is that if such a methodology is selected, the following can be considered:
1, Look to see if the devices can be attached directly to the Speaker Base, an adapter thread used in place of the bolt on the top of VC Part, can be looked into to see if a Thread Size can be put in place to match a threaded insert found in the base of a Speaker.
2, A Sub Plinth could have 3 x VC Footers attached.
3, If Bridging Bars are wanted to be selected, using metal only is suggested to be avoided. A Composite of materials can be used, that includes a metal.
4, A material such as a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board can also be used for the Sub Plinth suggested in '2' or as the Bridging Bar.
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When using Cabinet Speakers there is a lot that can be achieved by setting them up to be at a particular Dimension Spacing Between Speakers, Speaker Toe In and the Vertical Plumb selected for the Front Baffle albeit, set perfect plumb or with a lean towards the Listener or to lean away from the Listener, a 1/2" inch to 1" inch lean can really nail the presentation from the Speaker when the other ideal dimensions for Spacing and the Toe In are discovered for the Room and Listening Position.
The speediest Way to learn about changes without exerting too much energy is to place the Speakers on 4 wheel bogies/skids, this method will create an ’on the fly’ change option where Speaker manoeuvring is speedily executed.
Once it is felt the placement is quite accurate the Speaker Position can be marked on the Floor using a Tape of about 3" Inches thick, the tape is also best if one that can have a demarcation drawn onto it, as small incremental changes to the orientation can be tweaked using the demarcations.
When the Speakers are presenting in a way that is seemingly unable to improved upon, a cheap way to experience a suspended Speaker is to use Inflation Devices similar to those shown in the Link.
For approx’ £20 outlay, each Speaker whilst on the Skid can be gently lifted to take the weight of the Floor. This will supply most of what a purpose made suspension footer will produce.
Additionally it will introduce the Speaker Owner to how lively and precarious a Speaker is when set up as a suspended speaker.
When one is confident all that can be created as a betterment for the Speakers set up in the listening space is achieved, the selection of a Permanent Footer is then the next stage.
I am familiar with AT 616, Gaia and Townshend used under Speakers on Concrete Floors and they are all very very similar in what is the end sound produced.
I have also created a very very similar impression as the suspended method using a Five Tier Support under Speakers, being Cork Pads as the Base Footer(Isolator), a Sub Sub Plinth, Cork Pads as the next Isolator, a Sub Plinth, and then suspension or pad isolation between Sub Plinth and Speaker. The Choice of Suspension Isolation or Pad Isolation for the Top Tier serves more as a tuning method, than a solution.
Sub Plinths can be a variety of materials and need not be expensive, alternating the materials to be the Sub Sub Plinth or Sub Plinth does at times create a change worth producing. A not too compressed Chip Board is one material I always keep available and ready to be used as a Tier.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=inflatable+lifters&adgrpid=1174279341628466&hvadid=73392707061692&hvbmt=bp&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=41557&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=p&hvtargid=kwd-73392619677444%3Aloc-188&hydadcr=22610_2286972&mcid=b0ac2dff81c0317aa436c43098617e79&msclkid=e7f83436e928144258d35c731d0ba858&tag=mh0a9-21&ref=pd_sl_8exbaujyv6_p
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@buellrider97 An inquiry to attempt to get the full picture about the requirement for setting up the Speakers:
Are the setting up of the Speakers only with a concern for the risk of entrapping moisture under them or any other support used to mount them on?
Does the above concerns for moisture have to be resolved in conjunction with using a mounting device that must be used for the Speakers that offers a Suspension Function, with the Townsend looking the better option as your assessment?
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My Inquiry has been to see if my Five Tier Plinth Could once more be suggested as it need not be expensive and has proved to be very attractive as a Base for a Speaker, with almost parity effect as a Suspension Footer.
The Base Tier Isolator could be Footers made from a 3mm (1/8") Wall Thickness Metal Perforated Pipe / Tube of approx' 50mm Diameter and 50mm High, this would allow air to flow freely at the interface with the floor and Support the Sub Sub Plinth off the floor.
The next Isolators and Sub Plinth used, will then be the ones with the Purpose to assist with Leveling the Speakers and add further improved measures for Isolation of the Speaker
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To give a little substantiation to the things I am saying, I own AT 616 Pneumatic Footers in quite a large number of the footers.
The AT 616 Feet have been loaned out for a broad selection of individuals to receive demo’s of the footers in use at a few locations in the UK.
As a result of demo’s given, there are now Townsend Sleds, Plinths and Gaia Footers in use by individuals who have received AT 616 Footers.
As a result of being demo’s speakers with Townsend of Gaia Footers used others have adopted the footers.
Being fortunate to know how close the Townsend and Gaia is a influence on a Speaker Sound as a result of follow up visits and hearing the comparison, I can say in he homes visited either with a Speaker on a Townsend Support or a Gaia Support, the AT 616 when added is as good as identical.
A multitier Plinth as described produced an end sound that is very very close as a mimic to a AT 616. Either tidies up the lower frequencies and gives the upper frequencies new space to make this range of frequencies presence known.
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@buellrider97 I am trying to show there are ways to get much of what can be attained for much monies for a lot less.
Is aesthetic the trade off, not necessome of the arily if a little extra thought went into the end design.
I recently put a Link up to Barry Diament who is the Godfather of releasing the designs for some very common items seen today with large price tickets, but Barry's designs can be produced for very low Dollars.
Barry's Footers would be great for Tier 3 and Tier 5 used in conjunction with a perforated wall material as the Tier 1, on the Speaker Base Support I am suggesting and regularly use.
As I have a large range of Isolators I can play with the Sub Sub Plinth and Sub Plinth Separators and attenuate the end sound incrementally, but not substantially, as the Five Tiers does the Substantial Change when used as the whole structure.
In your own case Tier 1 Separators are with lesser choices as other controls are needed in conjunction with being a support.
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@buellrider97 has stated " I think the Tektons have quite a bit of cabinet resonance based on what I’ve experienced this past week as a new owner."
Based on your early experiences and shortness of a deliberation of the sound being produced, I suspect at present it is a condition met when in front of the Speakers that the source of the sound is able to be located by the ears.
The Box is adding a Sound that is not able to be unnoticed, or the Box is adding weight to a frequency that stands out for the locating of the source where the particular range of frequency is being produced.
To assist with taming a Cabinet Resonance, if resonance is noticeably present is able to done in certain cases with a Weight Placed on the Top of Speakers Cabinet. A 5Kg Dumb Bell, is a good start to lay on the Speakers Top Face. This can be moved around in 10mm to 20mm increments.
When the area is discovered for the weight that had the most effect at tidying up the sound produced, add to the weight, to see if a further improvement to tidy up the sound is able to be produced. If added weight improves things, tweak the positioning of the weight as well.
When all is as good as can be, live with it for a period and then try out simple isolators to see what is being added or taken away.
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@gavman I have had Stacked ESL 57's as the mainstay speaker for many many years.
In conjunction with these as a means to create an alternative end sound, I have used Cabinet Speakers as both Stand Mount and Floor Standers throughout many many years.
It is the use of Cabinet Speakers that got me interested in removing Cabinet Influences and being able to identify the location of the source of the End Sound being produced.
ESL Speakers are quite capable of not being present in the room, there is not a source for the sound that is easily located, my ears at this stage in my life has it as not locatable. This for my own purposes id very very attractive and is wanted to be available from all Speakers in use.
What have I learnt over the years:
1, A selection of Cabinets tried out are not able to be tamed, the Cabinet Influence is always to be present even though reduced in its effect, when mounted on a particular configuration for a Sub Support.
2, A selection of Cabinets tried out are tamed, the Cabinet Influence is not present when mounted on a particular configuration for a Sub Support. In a selection of used Speakers a Weight Placed on the Top of the Cabinet and positioned in different resting points can be the added treatment to tame the Cabinet in use.
3, A Speaker can really deliver in a way that is extremely competitive to the used ESL when the Support Plinth Configuration, added treatment and Speaker Positioning is given a variety of set ups. Certain Set Ups have enabled the Speaker to excel beyond its offerings when used as a Basic / Typical Set Up.
4, A Cabinet Speaker when either on a Stand or Floor Standing is able to present much improved as a result of introducing a Sub Support produced as a certain configuration.
5, The most difficult part is the positioning of the Speaker within the listening Space. This has to be worked with and records taken of the positioning being used. Using a Decorators 3" Masking Tape as a demarcation on the Floor is ideal, it can also be Pencil / Pen demarcated produce easy to use incremental changes for an orientation. Taking dimensions to local structures from the Cabinet, i.e adjacent Walls, Dimension from Listening Chair to plane of speakers. These combinations of dimensions are the records to be kept. as when the real hot spot is being discovered, small increments can really hone in on the End Sounds Impression able to be made, i.e an instrument or vocal can easily be missing if the final tweaks are not meticulous.
6, Symmetry of the Toe In is very important, accuracy of a dimension that is not to low mm's, can diminish or accentuate a certain sound, i.e, a Vocal Harmony can have a Tonal Parity or one Voice has the most noticeable presence, backing vocal can be very very far back vocals.
7, The Cabinet Side Wall being Vertically Plumb is critical and checked periodically to tweak to correction as this can slip? i.e, possibly movement occurs as the load settles.
8, The Front Baffle is rarely vertical Plumb in a Speaker I set Up, depending on the Speaker Cabinet Dimension, I have had cabinets set 70mm leaning forward. In general the Cabinets are leaning between 10mm - 40mm and that can be the front baffle leaning towards the listener or away from the listener.
Raising the height of a Speaker and then working with it, has never proved a negative for myself.
As stated in earlier posts, I use a Five Tier Sub Support, which elevated the Speaker.
I have also used double stacked AT 616 Suspension Footers, but the configuration is not creating anything that can be claimed is discernible as the impact on the End Sound. I have also Spiked onto the AT 616 Footers and that does create change to the End Sound that is discernible. More is achieved in my trials by adding a Sub Plinth and a Particular Separator under and Above the Sub Plinth. Even More is achieved through the use of 2 Sub Plinths with an additional Separator, making a Five Tier Sub Support.
The Link contains a Post from myself, that adds to the Options on how a Suspension Support can be produced.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/feet-of-silence-2
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@prof I wrote a long post earlier in the Thread. On reviewing your supplied Images I can see there are similarities for the methodologies we have selected for a Sub Support chosen for the Speakers.
The Backward Tilt is not strange to myself, as nor is the forward tilt.
I'm sensing the 'Toe In' is also arranged to be optimised to the listening set up.
My set up is in a room that is solely used for Audio Purposes, which leaves me the options to use materials that are not as aesthetically neat finished as your own. We do share a like for similar materials in the assembly of the Sub Support.
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@buellrider97 It is great that the impact of the change was recognised immediately for the positive Influence and the negative influences.
The challenge now is to relax down and really get to grips with what is in place and what it is able to produce as an End Sound.
Later down the line the following in the list from Item 5 an ascending comes into play to eke out the extras. The Room might need a bit of thought about managing the energies in transit, Produced Sound should only reach ones ears once only, ot should certainly not be heard as a reflected sound within a listening space.
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What have I learnt over the years:
1, A selection of Cabinets tried out are not able to be tamed, the Cabinet Influence is always to be present even though reduced in its effect, when mounted on a particular configuration for a Sub Support.
2, A selection of Cabinets tried out are tamed, the Cabinet Influence is not present when mounted on a particular configuration for a Sub Support. In a selection of used Speakers a Weight Placed on the Top of the Cabinet and positioned in different resting points can be the added treatment to tame the Cabinet in use.
3, A Speaker can really deliver in a way that is extremely competitive to the used ESL when the Support Plinth Configuration, added treatment and Speaker Positioning is given a variety of set ups. Certain Set Ups have enabled the Speaker to excel beyond its offerings when used as a Basic / Typical Set Up.
4, A Cabinet Speaker when either on a Stand or Floor Standing is able to present much improved as a result of introducing a Sub Support produced as a certain configuration.
5, The most difficult part is the positioning of the Speaker within the listening Space. This has to be worked with and records taken of the positioning being used. Using a Decorators 3" Masking Tape as a demarcation on the Floor is ideal, it can also be Pencil / Pen demarcated produce easy to use incremental changes for an orientation. Taking dimensions to local structures from the Cabinet, i.e adjacent Walls, Dimension from Listening Chair to plane of speakers. These combinations of dimensions are the records to be kept. as when the real hot spot is being discovered, small increments can really hone in on the End Sounds Impression able to be made, i.e an instrument or vocal can easily be missing if the final tweaks are not meticulous.
6, Symmetry of the Toe In is very important, accuracy of a dimension that is not to low mm's, can diminish or accentuate a certain sound, i.e, a Vocal Harmony can have a Tonal Parity or one Voice has the most noticeable presence, backing vocal can be very very far back vocals.
7, The Cabinet Side Wall being Vertically Plumb is critical and checked periodically to tweak to correction as this can slip? i.e, possibly movement occurs as the load settles.
8, The Front Baffle is rarely vertical Plumb in a Speaker I set Up, depending on the Speaker Cabinet Dimension, I have had cabinets set 70mm leaning forward. In general the Cabinets are leaning between 10mm - 40mm and that can be the front baffle leaning towards the listener or away from the listener.
Raising the height of a Speaker and then working with it, has never proved a negative for myself.
As stated in earlier posts, I use a Five Tier Sub Support, which elevated the Speaker.
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@slaw Having had my first Venture into improving the local environment for the Cartridge Stylus to function in back in the 90's, by having a Platter Bearing redesigned as a Build, I was now on the road to learning about Isolation through Separation.
This Journey headed into Materials and especially materials that have a positive impact on reducing Amplitude (reduction in migration of energies through materials).
Today I have a self produced Supporting System built up from a multiple of materials as Tiers for my Audio System, especially for the Analogue.
The Power Amp's have an alternative Multi Tier assembly of materials, which is very very weighty.
The Digital Source has been sufficiently looked after on a Bespoke Built Wall Shelf, which again has a decoupling from the Wall and has Multi Tier Supports.
Cabinet Speakers also have their own Multi Tier Assembly to support them.
These assemblies in use at the present have evolved over the years, where different materials and separators are adopted, along with different configurations for selected materials>separators. The set up in use is very very effective from a Subjective Evaluation, the tidiness of the End Sound is very attractive.
Occasionally I return a Source to a simple Sturdy Table Support as a retro set up and am shocked at the Crud that is captured within the End Sound.
Today my main interest as Material is Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board, I am swapping out Materials once valued and am getting benefits worthwhile maintaining.
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I have stated the following in this Thread
" I recently put a Link up to Barry Diament who is the Godfather of releasing the designs for some very common items seen today with large price tickets, but Barry's designs can be produced for very low Dollars.
Also I have guided others within other Forums to learn the methods that Barry has shared.
As Isolation devices are witnessed, it will soon be evident that Barry Diament ideas is the fundamental if the designs that are to be seen.
Here is the easy/awkward side of the equation, is a $2 Barry Diament design being very effective at dissipating Amplitude become a bettered design when equivalent / Similar designs costing $100 - $300 are adopted for the same role? Add to the Latter designs an additional platform that does magic for Amplitude Dissipation at similar monies and 'Voila' somebody is doing better than Barry did with his freely shared info.
Those with a Interest in Isolation / Separation who have resided for many years in the UK, when asked about the Townsend Products, will speedily inform, that with no Barry Diament Info freely shared, there would be no Townsend Products as known today. Townsend have evolved Yes, but revenues created from sales of earliest designs, based on the BD's design, funded the move onto other designs.
Townsend have lots of happy customers, these customers would do no harm if they raise a glass to Barry Diament and his free shared wisdom.
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@buellrider97 This Thread is a now a reference to how not to overly Spend on Separation and Isolation for Speakers, there is enough info on here to reassure a visitor they can achieve a great deal with a well thought out Support produced as a DIY Design through to using Products purposely produced for such a role as reducing Migrating Amplitude having an impact on a Audio Device.
I will state once more I own AT 616 Pneumatic Footers and these are extremely effective at their role where ever used. When the 616 is under a Cabinet Speaker they are immediately discernible for the Improvement added. The 616 footers as a result of being loaned, have been instrumental in others being swung to discover products that offer a similar impact on End Sound being heard.
Where the AT 616 fail is that they can't improve on a DIY Multi Tier Sub Support used with a Cabinet Speaker, when used in conjunction with a Multi Tier Support, they add little if any betterment, but do add a variant to the End Sound, a different strength of seasoning is a good fit for the change made.
I am happy that Barry Diament is alluring to you, it is not the wrong place to acquire Info. It is prudent to avoid the common analogy thinking, that if its not costing an Increased Mortgage, it is a failure.
I can add to this Thread info for Equipment Racks, if this Thread is wanted to be used or a New Thread is to be produced, I will contribute when I see what is decided.
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@trecool99 How can there be a Back Lash, when Companies are taking on the ideas of enthusiasts.
Companies in general adds a little bling and put into a Sales Spiel the great results that have been attained.
AT 616 - SolidTech - Gaia - Townsends all offer much of s Muchness, but Home Designs will produce the same much of a Muchness.
For other Air Suspension Options there is the Furniture Lifting Air Bags referred to in other Posts in the Thread, these are ideal substitutes for an Inner Tube, and might have been the Air Reservoir used in older design if the Air Bags were easy to acquire.
The intention is to Capture and dissipate Amplitude, and more that one material is usually the better option, I refer to it as Multi Tiers.
Try any device above used in conjunction with a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board and there will be betterment added to the Amplitude Management do the same for Two Tiers and again something further as a betterment will be added.
It is really down to the assemblers knowledge of materials that are able to be used, and footer/separator designs that are to work best in a very unique environment.
There is not a Ubiquitous Answer on how a End Sound is able to be tidied up to the point it is quite impressive. Each Audio System Owner will also have their own preference for what is perceived as a Tidied Up End Sound.
Each listening space and the Listener Occupying it, offers a own unique Pattern for the Migration of Ambient Energies Amplitude and Unique End Result for what is considered a improved space due to managing energy designs adopted.
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@trecool99 Its 30+ Celsius in the UK, the Control Centre is Struggling in the Furnace.
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The following is extracted from the recent Magico - Townsend Thread.
" I actually started my most recent investigation into vibration by installing and seismograph in my home (on the same slab of concrete as are my speakers) and the vibrations are very surprising and consistent with changes in sound quality at night and on weekends. Also, I can see the effects vibrations transmitted to the speakers and the dampening of the Townshend podiums. I can hear the very obvious improvement. So, at least for me not Kool Aid. "
Since investigating Seismic Activity, when the World Stopped during COVID Lock Down, this was the period when Seismic Recording were at their all time low, Mother Earth and the Flora / Fauna was the main influence, not Human Activities.
A once in a life time optimisation for those concerned about Ambient Energies and Amplitude being Transferred through structures and then into Supporting Equipment used for propping Audio Systems.
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I visualise a Cabinet Bolted to a Wall, being either a Cabinet functioning like a Shelf or a Cabinet is seated on the Floor and fastened to the wall the improve rigidity of the support structure.
Both Methods offer a means to act as a Rigid Support for a TT, and as a result of being fastened in place, will be less reactive to Migrating Amplitude from Ambient Energies within the listening space.
Rigidity and also being a Decoupled Support Structure from the local building structure is the next consideration.
Reducing through Decoupling the Migrating Amplitude to enter the support structure, does show as a beneficial methodology where the End Sound being assessed is evaluated.
The additional steps are not costly, and are worthwhile, even if undoing a set up for a short period is inconvenience.
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If only heavy footfall was the detriment of the stylus, there are a range of Frequencies that have been worked on to find solutions to cancel them in their transit.
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