Hi , I’m seeking advice regarding footers and/or platforms under my speakers. I purchased Tekton Double Impact’s and have heavy shag carpet and padding over a cement slab floor. House is 35 years old, cement is thick and well cured. I’m from that old mindset of spikes into cement and I am looking for an improvement. I’ve looked online at Gaia footers and Herbie's Studded Giant Gliders. I emailed Herbie’s and specifically inquired about the studded gliders alone on the DI’s over carpet. I asked about stability and was told the speakers were “ heavy enough “. Unfortunately I just set up the DI’s temporarily to get a little break in time. They are without any footers upright on my carpet. At 115 lbs the speaker does about zero to compress the carpet. I understand weight Vs footprint is abysmal but they won’t even stand straight. I’ll probably put the spikes on for a bit until I formulate a plan. But my first concern is that Herbie’s gliders alone are not enough and due to the minimum cost of the speakers I am struggling with purchasing Gaia’s footers and footer spikes. The seismic stands look exceptional, but I’m trying to be frugal. So I’m looking for suggestions like, gliders or dots with or without spikes on wood / stone plinths spiked to the floor. My goal is to try some sort decoupling (Gliders / Springs / Dots) AND eliminate the need of having to rely on the carpet being compressed. And yes I have cheap speakers and seek a cheap solution, so I get that limitation. Unfortunately I can’t afford Tannoy’s or Fynes to compliment my 180 watt tube mono blocs for at least a year. Cheers , Mike B.
On the first post in this string, I mentioned that the most likely consensus would be that Townshend Podiums are the most universally recommended solution. Also, that I probably needed to heed my own advice and get some. So, I did. I received them this morning.
My speakers are Sonus Faber Amati Traditional. My listening room is carpet on concrete. After removing the spikes and wrestling my 135 pound speakers onto the very substantial podiums the sonic improvement was instantly obvious. I tend to measure sonic improvements in terms of the addition of a direct line. To me it is kind of a measure of value. A direct line can cost around $1K or so currently. The improvement is very noticeable. It is often like an interconnect or power cord upgrade... or component.
However, the Podiums offer a different kind of upgrade. To me is sound improved in focus and image detail. A significant improvement. But it completely leaves out tonal balance, and aspects that are often associated with electronics. Which, of course makes sense.... but you never know what you are going to hear before you do. Anyway, I’m sure I’ll be learning more about the subtile aspects of the improvement over the coming weeks. OP, thank for starting this thread... got me thinking and on the stick to do this.
@knighttodd, That’s a great idea that never occurred to me, thanks. If I could afford what I want I’d buy the Tannoy’s that you have. I almost pulled the trigger on a pair of used Prima Luna Evos, but I was gifted my pair of Rogue M-180’s and had them upgraded to Dark. Your system really appeals to me, and the Camero is Sweet! Regards, Mike B.
I have my speakers sitting on washing machine vibration dampers. Bass is fantastic. Imaging and sound stage is over the top. The floor is carpet on concrete in the basement. Money saved went for better cabels.
@emergingsoul Absolutely, my friend who gifted me my amps has spent 6 figures on his gear. He just packed up for a house move. He has new B&W’s that are the expensive ones. He had to box them for the movers. They roll into their cartons and pack away with ease. I have Tektons that came in essentially non reusable packing and totally understand this issue. I went from 6’ and 230 lbs with a 300 lb bench and a 450 lb deadlift to not being able to unscrew the cap on a water bottle over the past 7-8 years. But hobbies such as this give me great joy and allow me to be 16 years old and discover new things. Life is good , Mike B.
@buellrider97
Encouraging comments I look forward to future updates. I just wish manufactures of speakers Took to heart these types of mobility challenges.
As you may know Bowers does a great job with casters and it's huge deal to buy speakers with mobility potential.
Casters are used by dealers when they go to hotel shows.
@emergingsoul, probably nothing. My objective is to try something new, and something other than spikes. I won’t know what is best for me in my setup until I try everything as you well know. Over the few years I’ve been on this site more and more people talk about DECOUPLING various pieces of gear. So I just want to try something new and out of my comfort zone. I have considered casters and have looked at peoples systems. This whole carpet thing is an obstacle I’m stuck with for now. I started by looking at Herbies Gliders and it’s morphed into this thread. I worry about instability because the carpet is so thick. And then we have all the choices. I have tried spiked platforms in my current layout with spiked Zu Omens on metal discs to protect the 4” thick walnut footers. That was a disaster sound wise. That particular speaker has the finger ports on the bottom that makes placement critical. Zu has since changed their design. So now with the 54” tall and 115 lb Tektons I’m starting from scratch. At some point I wail try casters , as one setup I saw online had big Tannoy’s on huge wooden footers that had casters. I really like the idea of being able to pull my speakers out when the need presents like now trying to adjust bass by back wall distance. I usually start low cost and go up to my low ceiling based on funding. Because this is totally new I jumped out of my cost range and purchased Townsend footers. So I’m starting at what I consider the Top and working down. One of my thoughts to your suggestion is to have casters on a platform or outrigger style bases under my speakers. At 12”X 17” and 54” tall they are a tall and unstable object. I am in the process of discussing this with the Tough Nut Isolation Cone staff and when they saw what I had they recommended their cylinders over the rubber cone footers. So I’m going to try a few things and share my results. The leftovers I plan to repurpose as component isolation footers. My worse case scenario is I sell it off if I can’t use it. So thank you for your input , it is valued and I will try it at some point. Regards, Mike B.
@pindac, Yes , that’s exactly where I’m at. A few days back I placed a 10 lb dumbbell on top of each speaker. I spent the next two days moving the weight around while listening. I also have purpose made stainless steel round 4 lb weights that look like a TT record weight. I generally run those at the very front edge. By the time the isolation platforms arrive I hope to be through initial break in and basic speaker placement. At that point I’ll be moving the entire system to the appropriate wall , with the appropriate spacing off the back wall and start with the traditional equilateral triangle. I’m also going from 50 wpc SS to 180 wpc tubes. Since it’s a radical change I plan on repeating everything I’ve tried in the same order I’ve done. This is starting with no footers , to footers , to spikes , to weights on top , and adjusting the toe in using a laser. After all that I’ll try the Townsends . I’m allowing at least 4 weeks to experiment with placement. If that peaks my curiosity, I’ll probably try even more stuff. Cheers , Mike B.
@buellrider97 has stated " I think the Tektons have quite a bit of cabinet resonance based on what I’ve experienced this past week as a new owner."
Based on your early experiences and shortness of a deliberation of the sound being produced, I suspect at present it is a condition met when in front of the Speakers that the source of the sound is able to be located by the ears.
The Box is adding a Sound that is not able to be unnoticed, or the Box is adding weight to a frequency that stands out for the locating of the source where the particular range of frequency is being produced.
To assist with taming a Cabinet Resonance, if resonance is noticeably present is able to done in certain cases with a Weight Placed on the Top of Speakers Cabinet. A 5Kg Dumb Bell, is a good start to lay on the Speakers Top Face. This can be moved around in 10mm to 20mm increments.
When the area is discovered for the weight that had the most effect at tidying up the sound produced, add to the weight, to see if a further improvement to tidy up the sound is able to be produced. If added weight improves things, tweak the positioning of the weight as well.
When all is as good as can be, live with it for a period and then try out simple isolators to see what is being added or taken away.
@ronbocoI am talking about if the cabinet is allowed to move on the podium will it affect the drivers ability to properly produce the notes.
I answered that question. Read my post again because you seem confused about the 0.01dB I mentioned. The ratio of speaker cone to speaker mass is, in the example previously provided, 1000:1 which means the cone movement will be 1000 times greater than the cabinet which is equivalent to 0.01dB which the human ear can not hear. Once the speaker is placed on the Townshend podium which is sprung the combination will move together but be decoupled from the floor.
@ronboco, I think the Tektons have quite a bit of cabinet resonance based on what I’ve experienced this past week as a new owner. The other thing is I went low cost on a speaker and at $3200 for the DI’s and $1600 for the Townsends that’s a ridiculous price ratio. I’m not that well funded and could have gone to a nicer speaker at total cost. I am taking a risk based on the side conversations I’ve had with a couple AGON members whose opinion carry a lot of weight. For some reason I just felt compelled to spin the wheel. Anyway I’ll get to play with 3 different speakers on carpet and wood and see what happens. My wife leaves soon for a month outta state and I’m free to be a teen again. I will definitely post my findings and I’ve no problem giving an honest finding , Good or Bad. I’ve been amazed and appreciative that not a single negative has been thrown at me and everyone has varied opinions and we all play well together. Best wishes and thank you , Mike B.
I was already a big Townshend Audio fan before trying my Podiums. In my space, the main impact was the Ushers disappeared even more. On my carpeted suspended floor .
I do think the Townsend Podiums can be an improvement but I think the amount of improvement is very speaker dependent. Especially on concrete which is really pretty stable. In the Townsend video it seems obvious to me that the floor is suspended to get the maximum amount of vibration for the demonstration. I may try them one day but right now I’m not convinced the changes everyone is talking about are solely from eliminating vibrations. I hope you have good luck with your.
@ronboco, I understand what you are saying and I’m just trying to step out of old thinking. When I had these speakers on the carpet without anything underneath I was surprised by the SQ. Now on spikes I have increased cabinet resonance and put 10lb dumbbells on towels to lower the cabinet sound. The Tektons are a basic somewhat inexpensive build and lack any sophisticated internal layering. I think this contributes to the cabinet being part of the sound. I purchased the Townsends and was told 2 weeks to produce and ship, so I’ll wait and see. The plus is I should have the speakers somewhat through the break in process. It’s been inconsistent and unfair to gauge improvement due to break in. Regards , Mike B.
@lemonhaze, Hi , at this point I’m not willing to compromise the carpet. I’ll probably replace it in the near future with a low dense Berber. I’m going to remove the nearby carpet, wood, and tile about 1000 sq. ft. , with glue down oak. The amount of that carpet going to wood will already impact the noise level in the house.
What is the .01db ? Cabinet resonance ? If so I’m not talking about that I am talking about if the cabinet is allowed to move on the podium will it affect the drivers ability to properly produce the notes.
@buellrider97I somehow lost a long detailed post. Please see post above regarding Uncle Newton to allay any fears and restore your logic
I am also carpet over concrete. How about removing your carpet and epoxy coating in any colour the entire surface as found in car dealerships. A rug between speakers and you necessary. If placed on plastic honeycomb underlay it will allow the rug to breathe. I don't know your domestic agreement with the boss but if you can swing it use a ceiling cloud which brings huge benefits. Consider that we evolved with our ears always the same distance from the ground and that the ear/brain relationship allows for this. Far more damaging is reflections from the ceiling. Outdoors there is no reflection from above except in a thick forest where jungle sounds are pleasant.
A ceiling cloud along with bass traps is the strongest weapon in my armoury.
I intend to DIY some springs similar to Townshend but my detailed explanation somehow vanished. This can be another post if you're interested.
@ronboco, I wonder how many here have actually measured how much their speakers are resonating.
Measure it accurately: I use an old unloved, unwanted tonearm and cartrige jury rigged so I can use it to measure vibrations. This is way more sensitive than any phone App! Just rest the stylus on the DUT and plug the output into a spare amp phono stage and measure the output with DVM.
Isolation works best as has been described.
Also how can we know the platforms don’t alter the pistonic movement of the drivers thus altering the sound?
Newton’s 3rd law states: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, so yes there will be an alteration but will you hear it?
Using Newton’s Law and considering a conversation I had with Max Townshend at the Premium Audio Show in Veldhoven, Holland in 2019 who has now sadly passed away, the old gentleman explained that say your speaker weighs 40Kg and the cone of your speaker weighs 40gm we find a weight ratio of 1:1000 which equates to 0.01dB
You will not hear that. Consider the response of your room’s huge effect on your speaker output. Below Schroeder the room dominates. Fact. Even an acoustically treated room will have peaks and nulls and if not then you will measure peaks/nulls in the order of 12 to 15?dB. You gonna hear 0.01dB. Pffft
What you will hear is a vastly improved sound when speakers are Isolated.
@buellrider97 I am trying to show there are ways to get much of what can be attained for much monies for a lot less.
Is aesthetic the trade off, not necessome of the arily if a little extra thought went into the end design.
I recently put a Link up to Barry Diament who is the Godfather of releasing the designs for some very common items seen today with large price tickets, but Barry's designs can be produced for very low Dollars.
Barry's Footers would be great for Tier 3 and Tier 5 used in conjunction with a perforated wall material as the Tier 1, on the Speaker Base Support I am suggesting and regularly use.
As I have a large range of Isolators I can play with the Sub Sub Plinth and Sub Plinth Separators and attenuate the end sound incrementally, but not substantially, as the Five Tiers does the Substantial Change when used as the whole structure.
In your own case Tier 1 Separators are with lesser choices as other controls are needed in conjunction with being a support.
@pindac, Hi and thanks. I must apologize, at 67 and encountering the onslaught of Autoimmune disorder and accompanying heart issues, I’m realizing how off I am cognitively. Please I’m not asking for any sympathy I just want to say THANK YOU, and I’ll be researching this over the next few days. I saw a TT plinth article and would appreciate any links to research this topic. Also @sls883 would probably be interested in this info too. Respectfully, Mike B.
I’ve been having side conversations with a couple members and the rep from Townsend. From what I’ve gathered it’s about the speaker more floating on the platform than the base being immovable. This whole thing goes against my logic of solid heavy box, spiked to the floor preventing the speaker baffle ( motor board , front ) from moving. I’ve always pictured some sort of Newtons Law that as the cone goes fore and aft it flings the cabinets in the opposite direction thus reducibg the amount of air the speaker moves. This whole thing of “ Floating in the breeze” goes against my logic. But it’s back to contempt prior to investigation. A few days ago starting with the speakers unspiked on carpet and listing a couple degrees had me thinking this is a joke. But they sounded pretty good. The after 3 days I added spikes and SQ was considerably worse. It was pointed out by another Tekton owner on this thread that breakin is not always linear. And I experienced that especially with the multi speaker array as they breakin unevenly and have a smeared sound, then clear , then smeared. Yesterday i readjusted the footers and placed 10 lb dumbbells on top. It’s better , but not quite equal to carpet only. So in reality it’s try and see, learn as I go. Now with your subs , my old logic would be use a heavy slab base or as one member in this thread discussed layering. Hilde45 added a link early on about “ More Stuff “, it’s well worth reading. Also I hit you on your other thread about tubes. I see LTA is pushing Apos Ray 12AT7’s for stage 3. Check out the Mulkard 10M’s. Also domestic GE 5 Star and Sylvania Gold Label. We’re pretty established and maybe I could loan you a care package to try when you’re LTA is done. BTW I’m deep into the forth quarter of life and this is fun. Cheers , Mike B. .
To give a little substantiation to the things I am saying, I own AT 616 Pneumatic Footers in quite a large number of the footers.
The AT 616 Feet have been loaned out for a broad selection of individuals to receive demo’s of the footers in use at a few locations in the UK.
As a result of demo’s given, there are now Townsend Sleds, Plinths and Gaia Footers in use by individuals who have received AT 616 Footers.
As a result of being demo’s speakers with Townsend of Gaia Footers used others have adopted the footers.
Being fortunate to know how close the Townsend and Gaia is a influence on a Speaker Sound as a result of follow up visits and hearing the comparison, I can say in he homes visited either with a Speaker on a Townsend Support or a Gaia Support, the AT 616 when added is as good as identical.
A multitier Plinth as described produced an end sound that is very very close as a mimic to a AT 616. Either tidies up the lower frequencies and gives the upper frequencies new space to make this range of frequencies presence known.
I was close to pulling the trigger on a set of Auva 70's. They're still around $900 for the set.
I'm running a pair of REL subs that sit just outside of my mains. I understand vibration going through the floor, but wouldn't my mains also pick up bass through the air?
I haven't spent enough time researching the benefit of footers and how they help when I'm sitting on concrete. I've had my speakers on wood floors and I totally understand how bad that can be.
They are $1600 new stock delivered off AGON. The 100’s are not much less. I plan on getting the 70’s for my lighter speakers in the near future. Also if I go to subs , I’ll try them with that. I value your input and it was a tough decision. I can get a pair of Tekton subs relatively cheap. I’ll have to wait and see after the correct setup. I’m on the wrong wall with a cheap op amp and I’m shaking the walls. Going to try 12wpc tubes soon.
@buellrider97I will be interested in hearing your impressions. I can't will myself to spend that much. lol. If I spend any money, I'd probably do the level 3 upgrade on my MicroZotl preamp.
Thank you gentlemen for all of your input. I pulled the trigger on a pair of Townsend size 3’s with appropriate cells this morning. I also appreciate the input from others regarding the Auva’s and am looking hard at those too. I have a pending kitchen/den remodel in about 2 months. That job includes 950 sq feet of glue down oak flooring. Then my wife gets her own system in the remodeled den. Im planning on purchasing the Auva’s for her speakers. She’ll probably take the ZU’s or maybe the Klipsh Heresy II’s which I will mod for her. On a side note I see a few moderator deleted entry’s, I wonder if that was from Townsend as they contacted me personally based on my post. FWIT I made the purchase directly through AGON on the posted advertisement, so there was zero attempt to circumvent any commission that they are surely entitled to. Best Wishes and thanks to all, Mike B.
Since the speaker is coupled to the podium I don’t see how it can’t move in sync with the podium. It is possible I guess that the top of the speaker might move less than the bottom of the speaker which is closest to the podiums. What matters most is that you heard an improvement. Happy listening !
@pindac, Hi thank you again for your detailed input. I’m planning on trying the bags. I’m curious about your detailed description of the combination of materials to build a platform. By chance is there a link to a video or pictures that I might get an illustration Vs me trying to visualize from your description? At my age the old processor seems to be a bit slow. Respectfully, Mike B.
@sounds_real_audio, No particular problem, just overall better sound. I’ve spent my time locked into heavy stuff spiked to the floor. Got back into Mid-Fi about 10 years ago. Repurchased some of the gear from my youth. Moved on to lower power tubes , and now higher power tubes. I’m unfortunately budget restricted and try to enjoy the music in a cost restricted way. I’ve always liked tubes since my first Dynaco in the 70’s. Built kits and speakers as a kid. This particular thread is my desire to understand vibrations and decoupling. Once again I’m doing a system on a budget and will play with speaker footers. I will probably consider vibration issues for my pre and amp’s especially since I’ll have 22 tubes in play with the 3 pieces. Also got back into vinyl with a Modded Thorens TT. Currently streaming Tidal and Qbuzz. Again all modest gear with Innuos, Schitt, Rogue, Tekton, Morrow , Gray. I’ve tried to use American Boutique stuff and just have fun. The speakers in question will meet up with some 180 wpc mono blocs in about a month. Or as soon as my wife leaves on vacation. 😆 The chaps on this thread have been ever so kind in providing their insight, I’m so grateful to all. Cheers , Mike.
Townshend Audio Seismic Isolation Podium for Speakers made a nice improvement to my Yanaha NS5000 speakers. I wanted to see how this worked so I played some really heavy pounding music loudly. I put a finger on the Podium's and noticed they were vibrating a lot. I then touched the speaker and noticed it was not moving at all. I figured that was the reason the sound was better.
My Inquiry has been to see if my Five Tier Plinth Could once more be suggested as it need not be expensive and has proved to be very attractive as a Base for a Speaker, with almost parity effect as a Suspension Footer.
The Base Tier Isolator could be Footers made from a 3mm (1/8") Wall Thickness Metal Perforated Pipe / Tube of approx' 50mm Diameter and 50mm High, this would allow air to flow freely at the interface with the floor and Support the Sub Sub Plinth off the floor.
The next Isolators and Sub Plinth used, will then be the ones with the Purpose to assist with Leveling the Speakers and add further improved measures for Isolation of the Speaker
@buellrider97I emailed Stack Audio. They tell me that they have only had clients pay tariffs on orders over $800. He suggested ordering sets separately to keep the order amount down.
@knockknock12, Hi, thanks for your input. Did you or anyone else here do a direct comparison between the Auva’s ? Those 100’s at 4” diameter are big, but compared to the Townsends are barely noticeable. Also it seems I’d be at around $1500 for the Auva Vs $1700 for the Townsend #3’s. I’m waiting clarification on any duties or tariffs. God I hope no one goes off on a tariff rant. Cheers , Mike B.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
