Footers under new speakers

@knighttodd , That’s a great idea that never occurred to me, thanks. If I could afford what I want I’d buy the Tannoy’s that you have. I almost pulled the trigger on a pair of used Prima Luna Evos, but I was gifted my pair of Rogue M-180’s and had them upgraded to Dark. Your system really appeals to me, and the Camero is Sweet!  Regards, Mike B. 

@ditusa , thank you I stumbled across that recently on my trek to a new understanding. This perfectly illustrates what I’m now learning. There’s a quote about “ Contempt prior to investigation “, and I’m open to the wisdom shared and look at it as a time/money saver leading me in the correct direction. @pindac , thank you great info I shall study this further. I’m liking the bags  for experimenting and just trying to move 115lb speakers alone. Cheers , Mike B. 

Thank you to everyone, I have a lot to consider. My carpet is too thick for anything within reason to totality flatten it. Also an afterthought is I’m on a slab on clay with next to zero drainage. My floors wick moisture year round and if an area with any size can’t breath it will mold. So I’ll need a spiked platform or something with a box footer and a couple hundred pounds of weight. I have a pair of 14”x14”X4” Timber Nation spiked platforms that I bought for my Zu Omens. They didn’t provide any improvement because for whatever reason my Omens loved the back loading the carpet provided Vs every size gap I tried. Even Sean from Zu couldn’t suggest a fix. It was one of those times a tweak was a huge negative. Is there a spike available for the Townsend Podiums ? Thanks, Mike. 

@hilde45 , Greetings and thank you for your input. I’m thinking I’ll need size 3 for the platforms. I saw them on AGON for I think $1700. They look like my top pic so far. I’m feeling confident that I can just run them on my carpet. Also on my spiked ZU’s I ran a 4lb stainless weight at the front edge on top. They are essentially jumbo TT record weights. We’re changing out the nearby 900 sq ft of flooring to glue down oak laminate in about 2 months. The seating area in the room 18’x17’ with the back 10’x18” already wood. Eventually I might go to wood or more likely a thinner dense Berber. FWIT , I’ve always appreciated your input as I’ve watched your system grow. I totally dig your JBL’s and all the effort you’ve put into trying gear and exploring room treatment’s. If I had TMR near by I’d be trying a lot more stuff. Also my kid in Wheat Ridge just put a bid on a second house. I’ll probably be there late fall. I was there last summer but we had a family party there and a wedding in Estes. I was too busy to see any gear. If I see a window when I visit I’d love to meet you. Cheers , Mike B. 

@hilde45 Thanks , I’m looking forward to visiting. Also on my to do list is visiting the coffee bar “ ESP “ to hear their system. My son booked it for his customer appreciation night 2 years ago. @sls883 You have a killer system, congratulations. I hear you on the price. I went CHEAP on my speakers and at $3200 for speakers, the podiums are a lot. I see them at $1800 direct in a listing here on Agon. @willow7 , I am definitely considering what you’re saying, that is one of my major considerations in this thread. The “ More Stuff “ link from Hilde is definitely worth reading. As far as the slabs/footers I should obtain some in stone , wood and cement. Then try all 3 spiked and flat without anything under them. I’d need to go about 18”X 24”.   That gives me 6 possibilities and then there are a half dozen ways to couple the speaker with the platform. I guess that’s 36 combinations?  You guys have already done the leg work and I appreciate your input. The big curve for me is the moisture that wicks out THROUGH my flooring. I have carpet , glue down hardwood, tile and one room with pre LVP on a moisture barrier. I’ve encountered condensation and wetness and mold when I have anything more than a couple square feet that doesn’t breath and traps the escaping moisture. I live in a pretty dry environment but the ground my house is on is clay hard pan and it’s so bad I get effervescence causing minerals and salts to form. I moved my Peleton recently and I pulled back the 6’ equipment mat and you could smell the moisture and feel the dampness. That was the room with the moisture barrier and the LVP floor. Had I not accidentally discovered it , my floor would have been ruined. We’re finalizing a kitchen remodel contract and my wife bought 2 slabs of quartzite. I’m right there with you in regards to having some stone cut. The other thing I’ve considered is making a mold and pouring Quick-Crete slabs and including some type of threaded receptacle for spikes/ footers. Cheers , Mike B. 

Gentlemen thank you for the guidance and please continue. I’m just now stepping out of that old mindset that spikes anchor my speakers firmly to the floor and adding some weight on top makes the cabinet 100% unmovable therefore creating the perfect environment for the drivers to move fore and aft. I’m obviously late to the game , but I hear what you say based on your experiences and the gains you’ve achieved. FWIT about 15 years ago I was on the top floor of the county jail. This building has 5 floors and is the height of a 10 story building. It’s modern and made of steel reinforced concrete. It’s wide , stout and somewhat rectangular. With the inner walls and dividing floors almost like a giant box speaker. It was nighttime and quiet. An earthquake hit and I was sitting on an office chair with wheels. At first I could hear the low frequency rumble then I could feel the entire building sway slowly back and forth. It lasted about 20 seconds and slowly subsided. It then went back to quiet and still with only a light fixture still coming to a stop. Looking back at that from the perspective of this topic gives me a different appreciation of my earthquake experience. Cheers my Peers , Mike B. 

@sls883 , locate the ad in AGON Sales section. Scroll to the very bottom, it shows 100% on 525 items. Also a link to their E-Store. Up top there is a buy now and a make offer. If I was to pull the trigger I’d directly ask for their best price or make an offer 5-10% under their asking price. It also stated free DSL shipping, but coming from UK I’d clarify if there is an import duty or tariff so you’re not surprised. I also watched Hans Vanbeeker ( spelling ? ) video review. He really liked it but was vetoed by the wife. One thing he pointed out was the center of gravity for the speaker is ideal to have at the center of the devise. He pointed out most speakers are weight forward center of gravity because of driver weight. He suggest putting a dowel under the speaker and rolling the speaker fore and aft to determine COG. And if you have offset drivers doing the same side to side. I just saw the video today and need to look further , but my first thought was do I need a larger size as I’d assumed one would just set the speaker centered. Might be irrelevant, not sure yet. But once you’ve established contact you can find out. Please let us know what you’ve learned.  Also noticed 883 in your logo, that’s a Harley displacement size. Cheers , Mike. 

@dekay , I currently do not have anything but spikes and the non pointed OEM equivalent. I have a pair of 26” Sound Anchor 3 leg stands that weigh about 60 lbs each. I’ve run JBL and Klipsch Heresy on them. Just spiked through the carpet. I HAD blue dots but they melted and damaged the unfinished Heresys. I have a pair of Zu Omens that I ran spiked in place of the previously mentioned speakers. At only 50 lbs I had to lean on them to pierce the carpet and pad. I then purchased Timber Nation 4” thick footers with spikes to put under the ZU’s. I put the spiked ZU’s on brass cups with the footers. Looked great, sounded like crap. I talked to Sean Casey and experimented per his suggestion with spacing the ZU’s. I eventually gave up not being able to improve the SQ which was pretty good to begin with. I’m changing to a higher power rig with Rogue M-180’s and Rogue Hera pre. Hence I purchased the Tektons to get me by until I could afford something nicer. So I’m at day 4 with the Tektons sitting bare bottom on the wrong wall with the wrong amp. The funny thing is they actually sound decent. So my goal is correct room placement, new component shelf, NO TV, gear low to floor and room treatments. I’m currently trying to avoid subs and am considering what I’ve asked about in the thread. I’d try the Timber Nation footers but at 14”x14”x4” they are smaller than the 12”x18” footprint of the Double Impacts. I’m looking at new thinking as mentioned above , but struggle with not knowing and spending close to $2K to experiment. Then throw in the carpet and I have where I’m at. So far I’ve done everything I can to compromise the SQ of the Tektons and playing Tool at 95db with a cheap modded Akitika op amp , they sound really good. Go Figure. So with only spikes to try and wanting to try something new , I’ll probably get some 18x24 bamboo cutting boards and/or some similar sized sheets of quartzite or marvel to try. I’ll try spiked on that and maybe Herbies on that. I can discard the sheets and return or repurpose the Herbies. I figure that will let me know if I’m on the correct course before I pony up for Gaia’s or Townsend platforms. Maybe my logic is incorrect but these are my thoughts. I respect and appreciate all the input and I’m fine with criticism of what I’m doing. I’m just looking for the answers most of you already know. Cheers , Mike. 

@sls883 , yes I received an email from him also, he must have reached out due to our conversation. I see @hilde45 comments regarding this person which gives us both confirmation of legitimacy. FWIW the Orange Buell in my bio pic was a 2000M2, it replaced my 1997M1. It was originally built by the race shop at H-D of Modesto as they ran the Battle-Twin races back in the day. It was based on stock Buell lower with https://millennium-technologies.com/ Nikasil 1250cc cylinders. Had late model Sportster heads reworked to support 8K rev limiter. When I received in a trade I had Chris Rivas ( Worlds Faster Bagger ), go through the cylinders and heads. On a Dynjet it was about 115 rwhp on pump gas. Had stock final drive gearing and a slightly larger rear tire. Ran to about 155 mph before the limiter kicked in , and was still pulling. Had a D&D race pipe , Olhins, Works Performance, Race Tech suspension and brakes. Also had a stage I 2000 Road King, sold em 2 years ago. 

@tomcarr , Yes I agree with you as that’s what I’ve historically done. I remember a project with a friend where we obtained big metal stands that were copies of Sound Anchors , and had a pair of Westlake  BBSM-15’s with a horizontal array on top and big sharp spikes into the cement through the carpet. They were so heavy it was absolutely into the concrete. I’ve rolled that way from the beginning for floor standers. Or big near field monitors on stands with spikes. But after reading all the positive feedback over that past few years I’m setting out to hear for myself. If it wasn’t for moisture concerns I’d throw down a couple big cement or granite slabs. But I need breathability. I have a 40 gun 500 lb steel safe and I had to move it out to the garage due to moisture wicking. I’m going to install the factory spikes today , and listen for a couple days. That will be my base opinion and I’ll go from there. I’ll try a couple footer / pedestal configurations with wood and maybe stone. Then spikes on that , followed by some form of cheaper decoupling methods. If I keep getting improvements I’ll try the platforms. One I’m being frugal and half the joy is finding out. I’m really appreciative of the respectful and insightful input. Thank you , Mike B. 

@knockknock12 , Thank you they have my interest too. Any recommendation in size for the 115lb Tektons would be appreciated. Cheers , Mike B 

@goose , Yes , I’m wondering where this will end up and probably where you are. I totally trust Hilde45’s opinion, and he’s tried everything. But I need to travel the path of finding out. If they were domestic and not $1800, I would have just purchased them. Question, my speakers footprint will work on a size 3, but per center of mass to center of platform I might need bigger. Any experience with that? FWIT my son in laws handle is BOB, he was an F-18 pilot and now a T-45 instructor. In the movie it meant Baby on Board. That’s not even remotely close to what it means. 😆 Respectfully, Mike B 

@goose , I have had other speakers on the same floor prior to this. JBL 4312A’s on 60 lb 3 post Sound Anchors spiked. Klipsch Heresy’s on the same stands. Zu’s spiked to carpet and on thick footers. I’m just seeking BETTER  based on the large amount of chatter in favor of decoupling. FWIT I am a month out from setting up a large system on a different wall. Just playing with these speakers ahead of that. So I started this thread for advice. I’m old school always using spikes for larger speakers. So a few days ago I got bored and unboxed the inexpensive Double Impacts. I set them up in place of my Zu / Tube rig using a cheap modded Akitika ops amp. Out of the box they smoked the ZU’s. They are sitting on the carpet mentioned without spikes or footers. Today I installed the factory spikes and placed them back where they were. I noticed cabinet resonance while moving them on spikes by myself. I had to lean on and rock and push down just to get to the cement. After they settled I checked for level and made sure all 4 feet were firmly touching the cement. The sound quality is worse losing bass and mid range clarity. They lost some of the soundstage and now sound like 2 boxes with space between. I was surprised to see the loss in SQ, but it supports what others are finding with decoupling. Tomorrow I’ll add about 10lbs to the top of each cabinet and recheck the level and reconfirm all feet are firmly planted. After that I’ll try a tube amp , then remove the spikes and reevaluate. The carpet and large cloth sectional have allowed me to avoid room treatments, but that carpet is a PITA otherwise. Regards, Mike B. 

@pindac Hi , the moisture is not an issue unless I create a particular environment. I’ve accidentally caused it a couple of times. Once by putting a 6’ rubber mat under my peloton, the other by putting my gun safe directly on the slab with only cardboard while doing a remodel. Within 2 weeks the cardboard was saturated and molding, and that  was on bare concrete. The Peleton in the next room is on LVP flooring and I happened to move it after 2 months and could smell the musty Oder and feel the moisture. I had that room tested for moisture and it passed but the floors have to breathe. I have a huge wall of slumpblocks that form a fireplace and hearth. The moisture issues are severe enough to cause  efflorescence and pieces of the brick have fallen away. So the common practice of throwing down a big block of hard material to crush the carpet will cause this to happen. Also any floor mats or rugs can’t have a rubber backing. 

@knockknock12 , Hi, thanks for your input. Did you or anyone else here do a direct comparison between the Auva’s ? Those 100’s at 4” diameter are big, but compared to the Townsends are barely noticeable. Also it seems I’d be at around $1500 for the Auva Vs $1700 for the Townsend #3’s. I’m waiting clarification on any duties or tariffs. God I hope no one goes off on a tariff rant. Cheers , Mike B. 

@sounds_real_audio , No particular problem, just overall better sound. I’ve spent my time locked into heavy stuff spiked to the floor. Got back into Mid-Fi about 10 years ago. Repurchased some of the gear from my youth. Moved on to lower power tubes , and now higher power tubes. I’m unfortunately budget restricted and try to enjoy the music in a cost restricted way. I’ve always liked tubes since my first Dynaco in the 70’s. Built kits and speakers as a kid. This particular thread is my desire to understand vibrations and decoupling. Once again I’m doing a system on a budget and will play with speaker footers. I will probably consider vibration issues for my pre and amp’s especially since I’ll have 22 tubes in play with the 3 pieces. Also got back into vinyl with a Modded Thorens TT. Currently streaming Tidal and Qbuzz. Again all modest gear with Innuos, Schitt, Rogue, Tekton, Morrow , Gray. I’ve tried to use American Boutique stuff and just have fun. The speakers in question will meet up with some 180 wpc mono blocs in about a month. Or as soon as my wife leaves on vacation. 😆 The chaps on this thread have been ever so kind in providing their insight, I’m so grateful to all. Cheers , Mike. 

@pindac , Hi thank you again for your detailed input. I’m planning on trying the bags. I’m curious about your detailed description of the combination of materials to build a platform. By chance is there a link to a video or pictures that I might get an illustration Vs me trying to visualize from your description? At my age the old processor seems to be a bit slow. Respectfully, Mike B. 

Thank you gentlemen for all of your input. I pulled the trigger on a pair of Townsend size 3’s with appropriate cells this morning.  I also appreciate the input from others regarding the Auva’s and am looking hard at those too. I have a pending kitchen/den remodel in about 2 months. That job includes 950 sq feet of glue down oak flooring. Then my wife gets her own system in the remodeled den. Im planning on purchasing the Auva’s for her speakers. She’ll probably take the ZU’s or maybe the Klipsh Heresy II’s which I will mod for her. On a side note I see a few moderator deleted entry’s, I wonder if that was from Townsend as they contacted me personally based on my post. FWIT I made the purchase directly through AGON on the posted advertisement, so there was zero attempt to circumvent any commission that they are surely entitled to. Best Wishes and thanks to all, Mike B. 

They are $1600 new stock delivered off AGON. The 100’s are not much less. I plan on getting the 70’s for my lighter speakers in the near future. Also if I go to subs , I’ll try them with that. I value your input and it was a tough decision. I can get a pair of Tekton subs relatively cheap. I’ll have to wait and see after the correct setup. I’m on the wrong wall with a cheap op amp and I’m shaking the walls. Going to try 12wpc tubes soon.  

@pindac , Hi and thanks. I must apologize, at 67 and encountering the onslaught of Autoimmune disorder and accompanying heart issues, I’m realizing how off I am cognitively. Please I’m not asking for any sympathy I just want to say THANK YOU, and I’ll be researching this over the next few days. I saw a TT plinth article and would appreciate any links to research this topic. Also @sls883  would probably be interested in this info too. Respectfully, Mike B. 

I’ve been having side conversations with a couple members and the rep from Townsend. From what I’ve gathered it’s about the speaker more floating on the platform than the base being immovable. This whole thing goes against my logic of solid heavy box, spiked to the floor preventing the speaker baffle ( motor board , front ) from moving. I’ve always pictured some sort of Newtons Law that as the cone goes fore and aft it flings the cabinets in the opposite direction thus reducibg the amount of air the speaker moves. This whole thing of “ Floating in the breeze” goes against my logic. But it’s back to contempt prior to investigation. A few days ago starting with the speakers unspiked on carpet and listing a couple degrees had me thinking this is a joke. But they sounded pretty good. The after 3 days I added spikes and SQ was considerably worse. It was pointed out by another Tekton owner on this thread that breakin is not always linear. And I experienced that especially with the multi speaker array as they breakin unevenly and have a smeared sound, then clear , then smeared. Yesterday i readjusted the footers and placed 10 lb dumbbells on top. It’s better , but not quite equal to carpet only. So in reality it’s try and see, learn as I go. Now with your subs , my old logic would be use a heavy slab base or as one member in this thread discussed layering. Hilde45 added a link early on about “ More Stuff “, it’s well worth reading. Also I hit you on your other thread about tubes. I see LTA is pushing Apos Ray 12AT7’s for stage 3. Check out the Mulkard 10M’s. Also domestic GE 5 Star and Sylvania Gold Label. We’re pretty established and maybe I could loan you a care package to try when you’re LTA is done. BTW I’m deep into the forth quarter of life and this is fun. Cheers , Mike B. . 

@lemonhaze , Hi , at this point I’m not willing to compromise the carpet. I’ll probably replace it in the near future with a low dense Berber. I’m going to remove the nearby carpet, wood, and tile about 1000 sq. ft. , with glue down oak. The amount of that carpet going to wood will already impact the noise level in the house. 

@rodzilla47 Thanks for the link, that was interesting. I’ve seen him before on other clips and I appreciate how objective he is. 

@ronboco , I understand what you are saying and I’m just trying to step out of old thinking. When I had these speakers on the carpet without anything underneath I was surprised by the SQ. Now on spikes I have increased cabinet resonance and put 10lb dumbbells on towels to lower the cabinet sound. The Tektons are a basic somewhat inexpensive build and lack any sophisticated internal layering. I think this contributes to the cabinet being part of the sound. I purchased the Townsends and was told 2 weeks to produce and ship, so I’ll wait and see. The plus is I should have the speakers somewhat through the break in process. It’s been inconsistent and unfair to gauge improvement due to break in. Regards , Mike B. 

@ronboco , I think the Tektons have quite a bit of cabinet resonance based on what I’ve experienced this past week as a new owner. The other thing is I went low cost on a speaker and at $3200 for the DI’s and $1600 for the Townsends that’s a ridiculous price ratio. I’m not that well funded and could have gone to a nicer speaker at total cost. I am taking a risk based on the side conversations I’ve had with a couple AGON members whose opinion carry a lot of weight. For some reason I just felt compelled to spin the wheel.  Anyway I’ll get to play with 3 different speakers on carpet and wood and see what happens. My wife leaves soon for a month outta state and I’m free to be a teen again. I will definitely post my findings and I’ve no problem giving an honest finding , Good or Bad. I’ve been amazed and appreciative that not a single negative has been thrown at me and everyone has varied opinions and we all play well together. Best wishes and thank you , Mike B. 

@pindac , Yes , that’s exactly where I’m at. A few days back I placed a 10 lb dumbbell on top of each speaker. I spent the next two days moving the weight around while listening. I also have purpose made stainless steel round 4 lb weights that look like a TT record weight. I generally run those at the very front edge. By the time the isolation platforms arrive I hope to be through initial break in and basic speaker placement. At that point I’ll be moving the entire system to the appropriate wall , with the appropriate spacing off the back wall and start with the traditional equilateral triangle. I’m also going from 50 wpc SS to 180 wpc tubes. Since it’s a radical change I plan on repeating everything I’ve tried in the same order I’ve done. This is starting with no footers , to footers , to spikes , to weights on top , and adjusting the toe in using a laser. After all that I’ll try the Townsends . I’m allowing at least 4 weeks to experiment with placement. If that peaks my curiosity, I’ll probably try even more stuff. Cheers , Mike B. 

@emergingsoul , probably nothing. My objective is to try something new, and something other than spikes. I won’t know what is best for me in my setup until I try everything as you well know. Over the few years I’ve been on this site more and more people talk about DECOUPLING various pieces of gear. So I just want to try something new and out of my comfort zone. I have considered casters and have looked at peoples systems. This whole carpet thing is an obstacle I’m stuck with for now. I started by looking at Herbies Gliders and it’s morphed into this thread. I worry about instability because the carpet is so thick. And then we have all the choices. I have tried spiked platforms in my current layout with spiked Zu Omens on metal discs to protect the 4” thick walnut footers. That was a disaster sound wise. That particular speaker has the finger ports on the bottom that makes placement critical. Zu has since changed their design. So now with the 54” tall and 115 lb Tektons I’m starting from scratch. At some point I wail try casters , as one setup I saw online had big Tannoy’s on huge wooden footers that had casters. I really like the idea of being able to pull my speakers out when the need presents like now trying to adjust bass by back wall distance. I usually start low cost and go up to my low ceiling based on funding. Because this is totally new I jumped out of my cost range and purchased Townsend footers. So I’m starting at what I consider the Top and working down. One of my thoughts to your suggestion is to have casters on a platform or outrigger style bases under my speakers. At 12”X 17” and 54” tall they are a tall and unstable object. I am in the process of discussing this with the Tough Nut Isolation Cone staff and when they saw what I had they recommended their cylinders over the rubber cone footers. So I’m going to try a few things and share my results. The leftovers I plan to repurpose as component isolation footers. My worse case scenario is I sell it off if I can’t use it. So thank you for your input , it is valued and I will try it at some point. Regards, Mike B. 

@emergingsoul  Absolutely, my friend who gifted me my amps has spent 6 figures on his gear. He just packed up for a house move. He has new B&W’s that are the expensive ones. He had to box them for the movers. They roll into their cartons and pack away with ease. I have Tektons that came in essentially non reusable packing and  totally understand this issue. I went from 6’ and 230 lbs with a 300 lb bench and a 450 lb deadlift to not being able to unscrew the cap on a water bottle over the past 7-8 years. But hobbies such as this give me great joy and allow me to be 16 years old and discover new things. Life is good , Mike B. 

@wswright20 , Thank you for your input. In an attempt to gain further detail I looked at your system, Wow ! You have an astounding setup. I appreciate your input and based on the look of your carpet against the baseboard, that’s where I’m at with thick carpet. Could you please share what slider you used and are the Townsend feet just sitting on them ? FWIT Townsend contacted me this AM and we’re surprised mine had not arrived. They quickly responded that they will ship DHL next week. Regards, Mike B. 

That’s not going to happen.