Did some listening with very nice DIY preamp. Tonalities sounded great, less warm but not sterile; music had a presence but not that same kind of intimacy from tubes. A different kind of intimacy -- an immediacy, more like it. Soundstage depth was pretty much gone, and width was ok but not great for some tunes where tube amps pull things nicely apart a bit in the center. This pre is dead quiet, so that's a plus.
Every pre will be different, I know. But I have to say that what I'm hearing from this preamp, if it's even a little typical, won't make me want to spend too much on a pre. Now, I'm sure that other SS pre's are different and maybe better, so I'm not closing the door. But so far, the best thing about it compared to tube preamps is not having to turn off the power.
|
Hypex has a DIY preamp for around $1350 (you can have it assembled for you for $125 more. Fully discrete op amps and regulators. Fine volume control so should work with all amps. This is just now being released so I don't see any reviews yet but there are tutorials online on how to assemble it.....pretty simple. Has headphone out and will have optional modules down the road. VTV will be selling these soon. Could be killer.
|
@hilde45 would be fun to have Schiit send you a Saga and/or Freya to compare how far off it really is (or not) from your two tube line stage preamps and the DIY solid state unit you are testing now. Could be interesting 👍
|
@hilde45,
The Luxman C-12 is a great vintage preamp. I bought one brand new in 1977 along with two Luxman B-12 monoblock amps, owned all three pieces for over thirty years. They sounded great on my JBL 4430's. I presently own JBL 4435's in my main system. FWIW: I preferred the Luxman over the Apt Holman preamp in my system at the time. 😎 See below:
Mike
|
I'm borrowing a DIY unit from a friend. He writes, "It's built with old Burson buffer modules, only has about 3db of gain, a Jos Van Eindhoven relay stepped attenuator with unobtainium low noise Vishay resistors and a overkill linear power supply."
This will likely give me a sense of what something decent might sound like in my system. That might make going ahead with a Bryston or Apt Holman a good idea. I see a couple on USAM right now for not much money.
|
@hilde45 Bryston's service is top notch.
In addition to the Topping Pre90 and the Schiit Freya+, I also have an Apt Holman preamp. I used it for several years.
If the Apt Holman had a remote volume control, I would never have "upgraded" to a newer unit (Parasound JC2). The Apt Holman is in reserve. I don't plan on selling it until I have to downsize to a smaller house or apartment.
|
That is kind of the path @coltrane1 and I were going down with picking up an older Threshold or Forte Audio or Pass Labs preamp using Vintage Repair folks and/or businesses we all know like Bryston or Conrad Johnson techs to refresh them.
While Schiit and a few others have picked up related customers in this space, some of these older vintage preamps can be fun and sound nice too as an option.
|
I recently had my Classe 5 preamp completely refurbished, and it sounds great...
|
@hilde45 Any competent tech can service these things. In particular, Bryston has the world's best support for their gear with a 20 year transferable warranty. Mind you, an 80's vintage Bryston will be out of warranty, but they'll be able to service it.
Some years ago I picked up an 18 year old Bryston .5b preamp. I shipped it off to Bryston. They did the repair, threw in a new power cord (it was pig-tailed on), the shipping carton, and return shipped for free. Wow...
There's a Bryston BP6 preamp for sale on US Audiomart, for $850. Can't go wrong and it should still be under warranty.
One more thing. Bryston takes a back seat to nobody. Excellent quality.
|
@russbutton Great ideas! Thanks. Vintage may be the ticket. I just looked up the Bryston and Hafler and Apt Holman and the reviews are over the moon. What's not clear is what kind of love/repair these might need but thank you for an interesting new angle.
|
What will get you at least 80% of the way there are any number of 80's vintage solid state preamps.
- Apt-Holman
- Bryston
- Hafler DH110
- Nakamichi
Just to name a few. All of which can be had for well under $1000 and here you were going to drop $4000.
|
@hilde45 Wrote:
The challenge is really $1k or less,
Just a thought. Maybe the Schiit Freya+ preamp $999 with the LISST (linear, integrated solid-state tube). Now you have an all solid state preamp that can turn back to tubes at any time. With the Freya S that’s not possible.😎
Mike
|
@decooney, good for you! That’s funny because I’m originally from Sacramento. All the great audio technology came along after I moved away to Seattle. I believe Coda is still nearby as well. I’ve been searching for a Forte 4a or Coda 01p for the longest time. So when coming upon the T3i I couldn’t resist it.
Great on you keeping the Forte alive. Enjoy it!
|
@pprocter Did you see I’m looking for a solid state preamp? Is the kit you’re recommending both tube and solid state, because it looks like a tube preamp kit.
@tony1954 Yes, it’s almost as if I’m a woman talking to men. "Did she say something?" "I didn’t hear it." For example, the continued recommendations for a Benchmark preamp for $2799. Now, I’m totally never going to buy that thing. Out of spite.
Or people who keep recommending a tube preamp after I have said multiple times that I have two.
|
I just purchased my 2nd LA-4 from Rory at Benchmark. Pair it with a great amp and your there!!!!!!!!!!!!! Made in NY, 30 day trial, free shipping. Bet money, you'll keep it. A diamond in the rough. Ask anyone that owns one. Remote is an extra $100
|
@hilde45
I feel for you trying to get actual realistic comparables to Schiit products from this group.
Happens every single time someone asks for advise on equipment purchases that fit within an actual budget.
"Let them eat cake."
|
@coltrane1 I recently acquired a throwback from the mid 90’s. A Threshold T3i. It’s got a separate and full sized power supply. Likely Stereophile A back in its day. It’s been checked out by the great Jon Soderberg. ...
I was at Jon’s place last night picking up a 50w Class A SS Forte Audio amplifier I had checked and upgraded, fully refreshed. We talked a bit about some of the prior Threshold and Forte Audio preamps. A few of them sitting there. I might pick one up for nostalgia reasons, and growing up with it all around us. Have an eye on a few now. 👍 Doing some SS/Tube A/B comparisons with my custom speakers.
|
I have a very different set of experiences and have found that if your budget is low then its actually easier to get stellar sonics from tubes than lower prices SS.
The Audible Illusions or Musical Paradise 701 gets you much further than SS in their prospective price ranges. SS always seems to impart a grain or glare to transients until you really spend a lot. SS preamps gain structure generally requires a lot of feedback to reduce the loop gain as well vs a low tube count preamp.
I have several high end mega buck preamps and have sampled a lot of other lower cost units as well and there clearly is a trend in sub 2k toward tubes to me.
|
The VTA SP14 ( http://www.tubes4hifi.com/SP14.htm ) The basic kit is about $1050 and can be purchased fully wired for about $1600. You can add super spec parts like Mumford Ag/Au caps and Kuzmo volume controls, etc as you desire. In base form, it handily beat out my $3000 Classe solid state and every upgrade I have added to it since has made a clearly audible improvement. Very musical, detailed and transparent. A little soft on the very top but still dynamic. Loved and HIGHLY recommended!
|
@hilde45 got it.
Can’t go wrong with Ayre either. Have fun!
|
Thanks to those who've posted additional, useful information.
|
I very much like my Wyred4Sound STP-SE which combines the benefits of an active and passive. $2000 new, but maybe some used out there.
|
I recently acquired a throwback from the mid 90’s. A Threshold T3i. It’s got a separate and full sized power supply. Likely Stereophile A back in its day. It’s been checked out by the great Jon Soderberg, in Sacramento. Anyway, I’d put this preamp up against any preamp, ever, except for my Inspire 3.1 tube preamp. It’s got it all. Used price? $1200. I paid that because it’s absolutely mint, and it’s the extremely rare i version with a much larger than normal power supply. Anyone who remembers 90’s audio remembers Threshold.
|
@jl35 " it’s simply personal preference…"
Exactly. When I was exploring XP10/XP12, and XP20/XP22, I asked Nelson about running my Cary SLP-98 tube preamp or the SLP-05 paired up with one of the .5 or .8 Pass series amps - he shared in reply "we have many customers using your same tube preamp with our amps". So the preference comment is spot on imo, and while experiences seem to vary greatly with us all.
@hilde45 If I were in your shoes, I’d pick up a spare Linlai 6SN7 for your custom tube preamp, pair it with your Pass SS or QS tube amps, and call it a day.
i.e. Nelson likes tubes too in a preamp, another preference, with his own flat-tube version right here in a DIY preamp kit, supplied by Nelson: Korg Nutube dual triode kit. Well under your 1k state budget, at $299 for the kit. Several have tried it and like it pretty well. I’d put it up against many preamps already mentioned here.
|
I’m going to say that getting to 80% is fairly easily done in electronics, especially solid state. I don’t think there are that many secrets in circuits or components, having built five DIY amps and preamps, mostly Pass designs. But I don’t think many folks are here for 80%. Those small improvements that add realism start getting expensive, but are worth it to the right listener. The real issue is whether your personal sound preferences are satisfied. To use your own examples, apparently a lot of folks really like the Freya, some the tubes and some the solid state circuit. That’s preference, and as nearly as I can tell has little to do with price. My own practice is to find makers who share my preferences and try them first. Joining a local audiophile club is a great way of getting exposure to other sound preferences and zeroing in on your favorite. Cheers.
|
The Pass preamps got much better starting with the XP series… you’re really at the point where there are many good choices and it’s simply personal preference… I’m lucky to be able to have the Freya for a second system but it’s far from a replacement for the XP-22
|
Wow 80% I was thinking maybe 78% but I want 100% so since I have that I’ll pass
|
@yogiboy Thanks. That may be a viable route after all my searching/thinking.
@ditusa Appreciate it! Yes, at $1k Schiit might be it. Now it’s head to head against Van Alstine. Hmmm. Schiit Freya+ vs. Van Alstine RB -- quite the contest.
@audphile1 There’s no chance I’m selling both tube preamps. My tube preamp is quite amazing. Custom built with great parts and inspired by a classic deHavilland model with outstanding 6SN7 tube. But having an SS preamp to match the Pass is interesting. Some don’t think that Pass preamps are really all that great. Many spending in that region much prefer Ayre, and I’d be inclined to try Ayre, first.
@bosssound I like the design and features of Parasound a lot. If I was spending $4k, though, I’d look at Ayre, first.
The Emotiva looks interesting, too.
|
|
In my view, the Parasound JC2 preamp ($4K new) is hard to beat at any price.
|
|
+1 @barts excellent idea!
I would add to that…
Sell both preamps you have now, add few bucks and get yourself a Pass XP-12 to match with your XA25 amp and get all the gain, input sensitivity, impedance and other synergy related bull 💩 out of the way.
Or take a schiit. And end up with one piece of schiit that isn’t much better than the one you already have. Just different. You’ll be tossing it in and out of the system why? To experience different sound? Neither will be better than the XP-12 (tough to beat).
|
@hilde45 Wrote:
The challenge is really $1k or less,
Ok. I get it! If you want new, then it's the Schiit Freya+ preamp $1049.Try, it you'll like it. Also, remember when you buy Schiit audio gear used there is no Warranty from the manufacturer. In my opinion forget about Conrad Johnson, too much gain 20dB. As I understand it, the Freya has a much better volume pot. 😎
Mike
|
"Any opinions on the van alstine RB vs. SLR model preamps? "
The SLR has more features including mono, hi/low filter, hi/low gain and a thicker face plate. My friend has the RB and he has no complaints!
|
@barts That's a very wise suggestion. That would put me around $2k. Not shabby.
|
@mr_bill Try the SYS for $50 it was better than the volume out of my Sansui TU9900 and Accuphase T-101 tuners. Those tuners sound better FIXED volume.
|
@yyzsantabarbara
I'm thinking of doing this very same thing - have a good amp with selectable xlr and rca - then use my dac on xlr (with volume control) and my tuner into rca.
Right now I use the adjustable gain control on my Onkyo and Sansui tuners to adjust volume and should look at a Sys. My amp has adjustable gain.
|
@hilde45
Hey there, Life is too short to worry about tube life, especially pre tubes.
You mentioned that you have two "excellent" tube pre-amps. Why not consider selling the "lesser" of the two and add your $1k to the selling price and begin to look for a SS pre that is "better" than the remaining tube pre? Then repeat the process.
You could leap frog yourself to sonic heaven while maintaining the "balance" of SS and tube pre-amps at the ready.
Regards,
barts
|
Just in case anyone has an opinion, I am seeing a Conrad Johnson PF2L PreAmplifier, used for around the price of the Schiit Freya S. Any thoughts on that matchup?
|
@hilde45 The pre90 may get you happiness with the right amp. The Stereophile reviewer uses it with 2 Benchmark AHB2 and KEF Blade 2 Meta. As I said before the AHB2 is an amp that works with the pre90. Put a CODA #8 on it and it is a disaster. A lot of posts on ASR about the volume issue.
I would go with the Schitt Freya+ at the $1K level. It is a robust unit that worked with everything I connected to it. It is not as clean sounding as the pre90 or LA4, but that is likely by design and preferred by more ears.
BTW - In my future Livingroom system, I will use a $50 Schitt SYS volume control with 2 analog RCA inputs. That goes into the RCA input of my CODA #16 amp. The XLR input of the CODA #16 will be connected to a DAC that is a lot more than $50. The SYS sounds really good for my usage with a tuner (a very high level one). There is a XLR - RCA toggle switch on the front of the CODA #16.
I am doing it this way because I am saving a lot of money on a another LA4 preamp, that is until I think I need another LA4.
|
I’m not sure about the gain control in Benchmark AHB2. But for Parasound A21+, one could adjust its unit gain control down (usually below 12 AM) to better match / leave room for the volume control on Topping Pre90. It is better to have larger tap upstream on the signal path.
|
It's really quiet (130 S/N!!!). It's really neutral.
Only quibble is the remote must be aimed very accurately, straight on, no more than about 8 feet away.
|
I got lucky my Topping Pre90 plays well with my Vincent SP-331 amp. To listen at 85 dB peaks on most albums requires the volume to be at about 70% of max.
|
@yyzsantabarbara Many here are liking the Benchmark. But at $2799 it's not in contention. I appreciate your comments about the Topping. Those comments are more on point.
If I were to consider the Benchmark at close to $3k, then the whole conversation would change. Then folks would point at Pass or Ayre etc. Or to some of the other expensive things already mentioned.
The challenge is really $1k or less, and it's my fault for not putting it more clearly in the OP and I have to keep reminding people skipping around the thread about it. Live and learn.
|
Only issue with the pre90 is that it plays very loud with some amps. The only amps where the volume could move to more than 9AM was the Benchmark AHB2, Parasound A21+, and 1 more that I forgot. All 3 had gain adjustment on the amp. I tried a few other amps with the pre90 and they were awful with them with respect to volume. These included, the CODA #8, Krell Duo 175XD, D-Sonic amp, and LSA Voyager 350 GAN.
The LA4 works with everything and is a much better preamp.
|
if you're ok with hybrids, the vincent sa31 or rogue rp! can be found for a grand or so and are at least 83% of the way there
|
|
Van Alstine seems to be a good candidate which is above the cheaper stuff (Schiit, Topping) but still way below the others -- Benchmark, SPL, etc.
Any opinions on the van alstine RB vs. SLR model preamps?
|
Re: Topping. It seems decent. I liked the comment from Stereophile:
"
Internally, the Pre90 is the very model of a modern analog preamp. It is fully balanced. It increments gain in 0.5dB steps via relays that switch among resistor arrays. Its active stages are based on nested feedback/composite amplifiers (NFCAs), an increasingly popular construct that can deliver extremely low noise and distortion without resorting to complex, bulky circuits or esoteric semiconductors. On paper, it seemed perfect, with two channels of balanced or unbalanced input and output, adjustable gain, and eye-popping specifications. Despite its low cost and small package, the Pre90 shares many characteristics with larger, more complex, more expensive products, including the recently reviewed Benchmark Media LA4/ HPA4 and the Pass Laboratories XP-32.
One limitation to the naked Pre90 is that it provides just one RCA and one XLR input. Topping, though, has a solution in the form of a matching accessory: The Ext90 costs just $249, connects to the Pre90 with an included umbilical, and adds one more RCA and three more XLR input pairs. The Pre90 doesn't provide any adjustment for interchannel (L–R) balance, so if you need that capability, you'll need to find a place for it elsewhere in your signal path."
|
@lanx0003 My system is very simple. Just a CD player, preamp, amp and speakers. In my case using the preamp sounds better than using the CD players volume control. The sound is more natural, less grainy, more organic. A lot better.
|
