Every day I see another turntable recommendation...
After digging into this topic, I am convinced now I need to go a bit higher on this first vinyl set up. I think all in, I am prepared at this point to go up to $5k, for the table alone, not including arm or cartridge.
But frankly, being on this forum is like drinking from an information firehose. I have learned a bunch and yet somehow, I am less convicted than before.
With that in mind, to narrow down the decision, I am want to restrict myself to things I can buy, hear and, if necessary, service locally. My local dealers stock, AMG, AVM, Basis, Clearaudio, Michell, Musichall, Pro-ject, Rega, VPI, so I am likely restricted to those brands. I am certain my view will change by the end of this thread.
Same here. I can't imagine trying to get good LF performance with an unsuspended turntable. The SOTA that @mijostyn uses has one of the best, imo. There are active isolation platforms that you can use under an unsuspended turntable, but that seems a bit too Rube Goldberg-ish to me. |
There are seismic recording stations throughout the world, and like most sciences, the monitoring of the effects of the COVID 19 Pandemic on the world was a running live commentary for all with a scientific interest. This Pandemic has been unique in this area, as science was interacting with the Virus daily, and learning from the experiences like no other Pandemic has allowed to happen. Seismology is no different and it has made the data collected put to use, to see how the changes being witnessed in the readings of Seismic Noise were resulting from the changes made from Human Activities. Seismic Noise is a unwanted recorded information, in that it is not from seismic activity, but environmental activity. The impact of the Weather Systems on Land and in the Oceans remained consistent and maintained producing a Microseism with the average reading of 1Hz recorded for the Seismic Noise. Human Activity can produce 1Hz - 40hz and the average levels of Anthropogenic Noise produced during the lock down was 4Hz, the data shows as the Human Activities were reduced over the period of time and larger proportions of the populations were put into lockdown the Anthropogenic Noise dropped along with the reduced activities. The above although recorded on a seismic recording device are tremors and not seismic activity. Seismic Activity is from Earthquakes and Tectonic Plate Activity, as well as magma moving within the earths crust. Seismic Activity that is being recorded with levels detectable above Higher Anthropogenic Seismic Noise levels, when present local to an environment with a TT in use, will most likely cause a Needle to skip a groove or two as the minimum, but this does depend on the bedrock in the area as well, as the make up of this can reduce the impact felt on the surface from the transferred energies. What ever way it is thought about, the golden times of listening to a music replay on a TT, with the least seismic noise creating a welcome impact, came to an end, when the Lockdowns were lifted. I hope all our forums Vinyl Loving Friends got a few extra hours with their set ups when free time was plentiful.
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One thing I often see with turntable threads is the telling of experiences and negativity in general for the Linn LP12 backed up with memories from decades ago. There are very few tables that have been around for 50 years. The LP12 is one of them. This table (and all the various upgrade options) have come a long way since 1980. If you visit other forums devoted to high end brands you will find lots of enthusiasm for the LP12. Many of these owners can afford many different options, but they still gravitate to the LP12. It is the unltimate decades long tinkerers turntable. So, are stories of “how I moved on from the LP12 in 1979” really that appropriate today? I am not saying it is the best choice for the money today. But considering how you can buy this table brand new today at various price and performance levels or opt for updating a base model from the 1970s is almost unique. This thread on the Naim forum has over 1700 posts.
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The Linn dealer in the 80’s talked about the live nature of the resonance, and how record clamps and heavy platters were, according to him, a destroyer of good sound as they did not let the vinyl vibrate and sing. (It sounded like a load of BS)
I ended up with a Sota and a spindle/record clamp. Mostly after wrapping the nail of my bird finger onto the chassis. Pretty much like holding the finger with the thumbs and letting the finger go in a flick move. It hurts a bit if one does it as hard as one can. The absence of sound out of the speakers from the then sore finger, sold the table. |
To be sure! And the 1700 posts on Naim forum are 1700 single opinions, or the same opinion 1700 times. A higher quantity of propaganda doesn’t flip and suddenly become some critical mass of truth. And my opinion is also “who cares”. It too, is a story, and not any aspect of truth… other than a finger flicking onto my table is quieter than one flicking a Linn. But we do not usually flick fingers onto a turntable.
Modern Techniques?
There is something to said about a workhorse of a TT, and it being built to stand up to abuse. They were not transporting delicate TTs to events and worrying about set up slipping out of alignment. The Denon’s were also good sounding work horses. |
I agree with most of your post here. But the Naim forum thread with 1700 posts is not some form of agenda filled propaganda! I suggest you spend time flipping through the many pages of folks proudly showing their LP12 tables. These guys really love their tables! Some are purchased new and some have been constantly evolving for decades. It should be noted that there is a real competitive rivalry between fans of Naim and Linn. Some of this is friendly and some far less so… |
Why would I even consider doing ^that^? People that have the Linn tables split into two groups. It is the same with any other piece of gear from McIntosh done through Bose. I can turn on Fox news, or PBS or read the New Yorker, to get wildly different versions and meanings of events. So I would not expect to log into a Naim forum and find anything there except for love of Naim… up to the point of fetishism.
A rose by any other Naim, is just a rose.
Easter is coming up… and whether it is Mormons, 7th day Adventist’s, or Muslims, or others coming to knock on the door… they too are passionate about knowing the truth. They love their God just as much as Linn or Sota owners love their tables, or Naim owners love their gear. In the end… who really cares about their stories? we just choose a table and it becomes great (or at least good enough). I would probably be happy with a Project table if I had one. But I don’t… I have a table almost 40 years old. I am still generally happy with it, and to upgrade would be nonsensical at this point.
A used Linn TT is a variable suggestion for the OP’s budget and needs. As are many other options. If someone mentioned a Brinkmann or a Moreiseiki then, “yeah there are also fine tables,” they they are outside of the OP’s budget. I would like one of those tables too… But I am not going to go to a Brinkmann forum to read about the negatives of Brinkmann tables... or even a balanced review. It would be moronic to even think that I could find such text there. Andit is not propaganda, it is just natural that, “birds of a feather flock together.” |
+1 @photomax
I realize many are repulsed by the SL1200 but I am so thankful for having discovered its potential. Thanks to KAB and a few other suppliers, the hidden performance of these 3+ million turntables is quite staggering. One of the biggest benefits is the Mk2~Mk6 three (3) layer construction - these things are actually isolated. No wonder DJ’s used them! The footers in these capable machines break the audiophile rules of lossy coupling by having the feet screw into to lower chassis rubber boot. Yes. Not rigid! And unlike many lightweight sprung ‘tables, this system handles real SPL energy without soundstage compression. A sturdy shelf and a few pieces of sorbothane to provide lossy vertical & lateral isolation is all the isolation you‘ll ever need. Go figure . . . |
Many TT owners are Wed to one Brand and One Model and are usually only owning one TT. In some cases there are the same as above for the TT in daily use but other TT’s are owned, some of the additional owned TT’s may be in a set up condition allowing them to be used at leisure. Focusing on the pleasure to be had from listening to replays on a variety of TT’s as the motivation to have a selection of TT’s, when this is a method used, the owners of the selection of TT’s that I meet with, are usually appraising of the TT’s in use and not too concerned about the gap in the technologies that separate them. I have a selection of TT’s but use one model as my go to TT. A friend has a Goldring Lenco produced in the 70’s, Thorens Belt Drive ’modified’ from the 70’s, Linn LP12 produced in the 90’s, Technics SP10R. All are in use and each is savoured for the presentation they can deliver and the alternate experiences each can offer. The Spec for three of the TT’s to aspire to is very well known, but neither is judged negatively for this. It was the good impressions made from these TT’s that encouraged another to sell their SME 20/12 with Series V and purchase a Garrard 401, they preferred the Idler Drive presentation at this stage in their life. |
Very true @pindac and well stated! |
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I can attest to the modern Linn LP12 to be a very fine turntable with the great benefit of allowing many incremental upgrades available to take it to the very top of the line performance. They are stable once set up. The Linn LP12 Majik is $5K… and you can incrementally upgrade it to the top level $30K Klimax. I can share some comments from my friend / audio dealer who has setup and serviced all sorts of turntables for over thirty years. Many complaints on Linn as well as some other turntables of them not being set up right comes from people setting them up with no idea what they were doing… leaving off a motor screw, sprinkling baby powder inside the chassis, man handling the tone arm, using the wrong screws putting in thing up side down. This kind of stuff will screw up the sound of any turntable. I used to have a VPI Aries without a suspension, a fantastic sounding turntable… I now have a Linn LP12… a fantastic sounding turntable. |
@pjrebordao Thank You for the link. As a very long time Idler Drive user who ultimately went for a modern design concept for the drive method and acquired a PTP Solid Nine. I have also spent my time listening to other iterations of the methods adopted to be used with the Idler Drive System and observed many more iterations used for the Idler Drive TT. With the above in mind, the knowledge that the Idler Drive has been seen as a viable product in todays TT Market and a New Model is now available, is very good news for a individual keen to continue with the drive mechanism, the one in the link could be proven to be a uber modern concept for the Idler Drive mechanism. I am looking forward to encountering this design and thoroughly getting to grips with the impression it can create. |
You can stop chasing your tail "$4500 bucks all in"!!!, Oracle Delphi mkII, SME V5 arm, Dynavector H.O-MC cartridge (can be critiqued 2-5 yrs up the road), plug in good to go. Use your savings for a HQ tube powered pre-amp. Audion Silver Night Line & MM Phono Stage Pre-Amp Or you can go with the highly reputed Atma-Sphere MP-1 or Atma-Sphere MP-3 |
There isn't any real need to limit a choice for a Tonearm to one Brand or to go to the expense of the SME Series V. To get a demonstration of the V might be a little more difficult than other Brands, as Cadence the new owners of SME, enforced the changes in marketing, with the recent changes enforced affecting how the Arms can be purchased. SME has stopped singular Tonearm items being available. The only method to acquire a New Model today is with a SME TT, leaving the singular item purchase as most likely being a used item. There are other models that I am aware you are considering and are worthwhile trying to experience through demonstration, prior to making any decision for the Tonearm that is to be selected.
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"saulh" You have garnered some wide-ranging advice and suggestions. I would offer some input from George Merrill that you can read from some of his "papers" on his web site & links listed below. He is an analog devote & engineer. If you are so inclined to contact him with concerns or questions, he will address them without trying to sell you anything. Analog Emporium & GEM Dandy Products: GEM Dandy Products (hifigem.com) Turntable Design 1: Turntable Design 1 (hifigem.com) Turntable Design 2: Turntable Design 2 (hifigem.com) Torque Recoil: Torque Recoil (hifigem.com) Enjoy the hunt & good luck |
My current analog system is modest by comparison to many on this site. What has been humbling and enlightening is that although I've doubled the spend and the sound quality has indeed improved, it's still hasn't eclipsed what I was hearing in my old room (in my last home). Could it be that the OP's analog reference was experienced in a better room? Although my 10" Tannoy Turnberrys make better bass and overall tonality than my old Salk Songtowers did in my current room. They were not as good as the same Songtowers in my old room. The bass was deeper and the tonality was better. I was using cheaper elliptical MM carts on my Technics 1200G back then and felt like I was getting more detail than my AT33PTGII now. The benefits of a good room are all over the spectrum. Better imaging, clarity, resolution...yadda...yadda yadda...
Better equipment helps but we listen to it 'through' a room. A room that will muddy or smear or boost or even filter out frequencies.
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Which dealer do you trust? Sometimes you can get a great deal on a demo or trade in. I would hesitate to buy a used turntable/arm, but if a dealer stands behind it, that may be an option if you want separate arm and table manufacturers. I prefer to keep it simple, and Rega makes incredible arms for the money. I'm not a fan of their cartridges and a dealer can set it up with an excellent cartridge. Some dealers are very analogue centric and can guide you better than others. A Rega P8 lists for $3500 now, you can probably get it for about $3K, cartridge $1500-$2000, and a phono stage for about $1500-$2500. Close to $5K all in. The P10 is better, but the extra close to $3K cost/value proposition is debatable. It's almost double the price. Plan on putting the Regas on a wall shelf with some isolation base as well and they will really shine. There's reason Michells, SOTAs and others match their tables with Rega arms. Value. If you want to go over $10K all in and become more of a turntable hobbyist, then by all means, have at it. Although I would probably just go for a simple solution like an SME. |
Hey, I’m happy to have a MMF-9.3. But I admire those who can afford more expensive turntables. Good luck with your search!
Oh, btw I purchased my 9.3 without a cartridge from Hi Fi Heaven, brand new in the box just 4 months back for $1799 delivered. Not a bad starter table for that price. The tonearm is a true gem. |
I am so old I am happy to invest in a state-of-the-art-in-my-childhood equipment, so I am at $600 all-in (Dual 1019 fully automatic German idler-drive turntable, Shure M55e AND Shure m97xe AND Shure V15 Type IV cartridge NOS in radio shack livery but state of the art nonetheless for its day and not-much-exceeded by today's equipment.) Essentially I have three Shure V15 cartridges to run my turntable which changes out headshells in seconds (which these days are 3D printed on EBay.) You may scoff but the Dual 1019 was THE dominant turntable for half a decade back in the day. |
@systembuilder22 The last paragraph is a recent statement made in another thread that should make sense to you. There is no scoffing or contempt before investigation when I read your post. I have used Idler Drives for many years and am not too many years separated from using a Idler Drive as my daily TT. I am sure that in the not too distant, if the ears deteriorate, I will be a MM user for all my replays, no point in pretending the MC is the better Cart' when the ears are not so young anymore. My last hearing test ended with the clinician informing me I was still able to hear and my HiFi investments are still worthwhile, the next test might be a different story.
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Just thinking out loud, the turntable & tone arm & cartridge were less than 1/3rd of my original investment; the $200 used 1019 turntable from local craigslist (United Audio base; Shure m55e cartridge) was just the start of the adventure. There were many extras to get: (a) Two additional $30 headshells from ebay (my son broke the original headshell not understanding the tone-arm lockdown), (b) $30 Vintage Discwasher, (c) Washing fluid (d) $22 The unusual Dual "waiter's arm" record changer spindle, (e) $10 Dual-branded 1019 45rpm adapter (f) $20 Original Dual owner's manual, (g) $40 radio-shack smoke colored dust cover (there was no oem cover available for the UA plinth), (h) $15 Dual aluminum reproduction logo to dress up the dust cover (h) $10 extra smoke plexiglass from ebay to fine-tune the fit of the dust cover, (i) $65 TEC TC-778 phonepreamp incl. support for 78pm (the turntable does 16, 33, 45, and 78 rpm), (j) $200 for 2 more shure V15-era cartridges both at bargain prices, (k) $60 two more 3x7 elliptical M55e replacement styluses out of paranoia that mine would break or wear out and the m55e would have no stylus. So about $535 of extras, total. There is a great comfort in buying a best-seller from the past because parts and accessories (some of them being newly manufactured by home enthusiasts) are readily available. |
@saulh It’s unclear why you want a turntable “only” for your first foray into vinyl. This eliminates table+tonearm package deals which would save you $. Usually, vinyl newbies are better economically served with a combo turntable+tonearm package. At ~$5k I would suggest a high value MoFi Ultradeck coupled with their MasterTracker combo and a PS Audio Stellar Phono Preamp both of which received great reviews. |
@saulh the OP has made the following statement, which pretty much means he is keen to be able to receive a demonstration of from a local support network. "to narrow down the decision, I am want to restrict myself to things I can buy, hear and, if necessary, service locally. My local dealers stock, AMG, AVM, Basis, Clearaudio, Michell, Musichall, Pro-ject, Rega, VPI, so I am likely restricted to those brands". If the OP follows through with this intention they will have at the least received a demonstration of TT's of interest in their locality, resulting in the most important that their ears being used as the Judge, their eyes will certainly have a influence, and any third party influences being introduced from a sales viewpoint will potentially impact on a overall assessment. Many years ago in my earliest days of receiving demonstrations of TT's and TT's vs CD at a Dealership with a dedicated listening room, I would ask to be left by myself and not be exposed to the Sales Pitch, I would only ask for the support of sales when a device was to be exchanged, I would encourage the OP to adopt this method of carrying out a demonstration as well. The OP does anticipate that their own selections might be increased with suggestions from others being offered. I really do hope the OP does receive demonstrations of devices that are of interest, and even better is using the local suppliers, try and have a follow up Home Demo' as well. In my Country not too many years past when Dealerships were abundant and regularly available to visit, the idea of a customer requesting a follow up Home Demo' was a recognised part of the service, a purchase made on their premises only was an easy sale. To purchase a device on the strength of hearsay or a review is using fantasy as ones guide, no matter what they conjure up in their minds to justify the purchase the reality of a performance from the product when encountered can prove to be quite different during the assessment , to how another's assessment and description relates to it.
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Well put and sage advice @pindac |
For what it is worth, I enjoy my VPI and Hana cartridge a lot. I did have a Tavish Adagio phono stage and it was good, but surprisingly my new McIntosh preamp has a better sounding phono stage, so I sold the Tavish. That said, if you have a good enough phono stage or a higher end preamp with a decent phono stage you don't have to buy everything at once and can take your time to build it up. That approach also has the benefit of of hearing each component on its own merits in your system to be sure you are getting your money's worth out of each piece. |
At the price point you’re looking at, there’s probably no "great" turntable, but alot of good turntables that you can really enjoy. But it’s a great place to whet your analog auditory appetite, so that you hopefully can move up to higher end turntables, where (in my opinion) it’s easier to appreciate vinyl. Rega is very good for a beginner, plug and play (and probably can't be beat for less than $5,000 for table, arm, and cartridge), but at $5,000 for a turntable alone (and probably another $2,000-5,000 for cartridge and another $2,000-5,000 for tonearm), I would look at other brands, with the understanding that whatever you buy, there will be limitations to it. I would just recommend reading reviews here and on other sites, and then you (fortunately) have the ability to audition what you are then interested in. At this price point, you probably can’t go wrong with anything. Just purchase what is available to you where you are, and enjoy it until you’re ready to move up the ladder. Best wishes with your musical journey. |
Coming around to spending more on a phono stage and maybe a bit less on a tt. Was thinking this was a place to be cheap, but the logic of many of the posters is irrefutable. With that in mind, intrigued by this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/203527281169 |
@cleeds, of course I have a rumble filter, a very steep digital rumble filter with a cut off frequency of 18 Hz. The rumble is coming from the record. My subwoofer amps will go clear down to DC and although the subwoofers can't project much under 10 Hz they will gladly bounce of their bump stops at low frequencies making a rather disturbing noise. All in all judging by your comments you do not have a lot of experience with vinyl and high performance systems or you would know these things. You could argue that because of all the low frequency rubbish on records the environmental noise does not mean much, a very valid point. What you do not seem to know is that using a properly isolated table designed the way the Sota is a joy. You can handle it without having to be do so gingerly. I can put my hand down on it without inducing skipping. I can bump into the cabinet, no problem. I can accidently drop the dust cover. Children can run around and play in the room, jump up and down and even bounce of the cabinet without any effect what so ever. I can play the system at patently ridiculous volumes without any problem (once I solved the feedback issue). |
That’s interesting. The last time we reviewed your rumble filter, you suggested it was needed because you have constant earthquakes where you live. Now you blame the record. It’s obvious you have LF issues in your setup that you resolve with the rumble filter, which is fine, of course.
You and I are getting similar performance, although I’m using a VPI TNT III (on a dedicated stand) with an SME V. My IRS Beta system is essentially flat in-room to below 20 hZ - without any rumble filter. I do have the active LP servo-crossover set to roll-off at 15 hZ, where it is -3dB. I’ve achieved similar LF performance without rumble filters with other turntables, including a Denon DP-80 in the VPI base. But the VPI has bested them all overall. Where we agree is the joy of using a properly isolated turntable that avoids the fiddly, bouncy, jiggly, unstable, low mass turntables that some use. I just prefer to avoid aggressive rumble filters and have a setup that allows that.
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and this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/203527281169 and maybe I'm done at $8500 for gear that would retail at $12k? Nervous about used turntables and tube amps though. Any thoughts? |
If you want quality you virtually have to consider used gear. This is especially true for tape decks ; NO quality tape decks being made anymore. There is perhaps a resurgence in quality turntables but they cost twice as much as they should be costing. High quality workhorse super durable turntable from the '60s '70s and '80s should be $1,000 to $2,500 in today's prices. $5,000 is beyond what you could pay back then. This is why I don't think that new gear is generally any good. There is gear from the past that will still be working when every turntable made today has worn out and broken down! Today's gear is either rubbish or 2x what it should cost,. I'd take a best-selling turntable from the 80th percentile of the market from 1980-1990 over anything sold today. When you are going to make 10 million turntables a year you can make a much higher quality product than when you are going to make 10,000. |
Having owned turntables since the 1960’s and decent turntables since the ‘70’s and audiophile turntables since the 80’s as well as constantly evaluating and listening to them since the 70’s I can assure you the sound quality has improved dramatically over the period particularly in the 90’s - 10’. A 1980’s turntable purchased for $1,000 would be a cost today of ~$4,000. Sound quality… of a good TT in this price range today is much higher quality. |
I agree with what you're saying generally across the board. I have little doubt that a Planar 3 is considerably superior to my Rega 3 from the mid 80s. Nor that there are some fabulous designs around the $1k mark these days. I guess it's hardly surprising when you consider the amount of competition that is out there today plus the fact that sound quality seems to be far more of a priority these days as compared to convenience. The advances in design technology and engineering, of course, aren't going to hurt either, are they?
However, what happens if we were to compare a Technics SP10 from 1971 with its modern day equivalent? Or, going back even further, a carefully restored AR turntable with a similar design from today? I can't help but wish, for the sake of perspective if nothing else, that there were far more 'real world' comparisons such as this.
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J-wall Im interested in your upgrade path on turntable and cartridge an upgraded cartridge and a little better TT goes a long way but, I’m most interested in your sq difference between the solid state musical surroundings phono and Allnic phono. One of my audio buddies has converted to mostly Allnic . Just wondering what the true differences were ? Saulh j-wall said a mouthful In a few sentences . In my opinion he’s very right , but I’m limited in TT experience. Audio buddies have high end stuff to compare my stuff too acoustic solid with triplaner and Purple Heart & esoteric phone and avid & lyra & ref 6 phono I’m interested in your current thoughts as to your direction Jeff
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