@rsf507 Thank You for your Input, I am sure the OP will be very pleased with the information as well, I really hope the OP has a opportunity to receive a demonstration of the Brands Models.
As for me, I am very sure footed in such matters, and when the time is right I will be receiving a demonstration of this Companies products, hopefully with ancillaries of my choice.
@clearthinker As a Support Structure for my TT's, I use Mass combined with suspension.
Granite and Steel Plate is my got to material to create Mass. A variety of Materials and Devices are used to create the suspension element.
What has changed today for myself is my methods used for Plinth Materials.
I was at one point a person who was happy to have a Nine and a Half Stone (60Kg) Plinth.
Today that has changed, I am a user of compressed lighter in weight materials, of which I will end up with a Plinth Produced from Densified Wood.
My Material of choice is from the Brand Delignit and the Product is Panzerholz.
I am familiar with this material and have had demonstrations of TT's using it as a Plinth.
A friend who I assisted with sourcing a supply has recently produced a Plinth for their TT and Tonearm, which is the same as my own.
The reports returned are uplifting to say the least, the descriptions used about the noticeable positive improvements are very encouraging, the impact was so encouraging the individual has now allocated a spare piece of Panzerholz as a Sub Plinth, which is a method I have been demonstrating to very good effect at recent local HiFi Group meetings.
For the OP, and the members with a curiosity or already in possession of the Kuzma Brand. The link is an alternative view of the Kuzma Brand from a trusted source I use, who has been presented on here in the past known as Juergen.
Juergen has a vast experience and is a individual that is a pleasure to read up on their experiences, taking a little onboard of his assessments is a worthwhile undertaking.
The review is backed up by a suggestion that the revered Turntable designer Hideki Nishikawa who is also responsible for the Tech DAS Brand had been showing an interest and curiosity in the designs used for the Kuzma Models.
That in itself is good reason to have a curiosity about what the Kuzma Brand can create within a system.
It is always best to have access to a broader range of descriptions for any devices that are of interest and can come with a need to spend a fair sum of monies.
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It is worthwhile considering the suggestions that digital might be the advantageous pursuit. My experiences of recent years has lifted all prejudices I had developed toward the use of CD from past experiences, there is a curiosity today to see how a streaming set up can compare.
I can play a Vinyl LP and CD of the same recording in conjunction, and when switching channels detect immediately a change to the presentation, in some cases a slight volume adjustment is all that is required to create the impression of a very close similarity between the two.
If the selected source is allowed to play on for a short period, there is no desire to return to the other source, either have the capability to be attractive and desirable to be engaging with.
From previous posts made by yourself, I gather your curiosity is the reverse of mine and the Digital is well established, and the Vinyl LP is the new desirable source to be pursued.
If the idea of being Wed to a Vinyl LP Replay is the unavoidable aspiration.
Out of the Nine Brands made known and not made Models, that are available from the Local Dealership Network, how many have been demonstrated to yourself?
Out of the models that could be demonstrated, are there Models with quite obvious design differences such as Motor Drive, the overall Construction and the Materials selected for the assembly of the Platter Spindle Bearing and Housing?
Out of the models that could be demonstrated, are there Models with a Platter Spindle Bearing design, that have become recognised for their design and the value on offer of the method that is being employed on the model of TT? ( The design for the bearing is one that is often overlooked by a buyer and is an area within the entirety of the construction of the TT that can impact on the performance, in certain cases the impact can be noticeably detracting).
Out of the models that could be demonstrated, are there Models with a modern approach to the Construction of the Platter, such as a composite of materials in place of using a machined/cast metal only?
Out of the models that could be demonstrated, are there models mounted in Plinths with a design that is using materials that are very well thought out and can damp and dissipate transferred energies more effectively and efficiently than other materials? (There is quite a bit of research carried out about the properties of materials, even the most attractive and used regularly by the producers are not able to produce measured performances that would be considered attractive as a Plinth Material. This is why some are producing composites, as the variety of materials properties are combined in the hope the sum of the parts will surpass the singular part as a material, again there is research that shows the measured properties of composites).
I am sure that within the Market Place a 5K Budget will be enough to be able to discover TT's with very well thought out designs.
It has already been suggested by yourself the Budget and Brands/Models, might be subject to change. Maybe a used model from a Dealer, such as Ex Demo or Trade In might also get an extended option onto the list within Budget.
It is important to get out and listen to a few TT's with different design intent for their production, discovering the realness of what is on offer, will only be discovered when creating experiences of the devices, any other methods where a demonstration is not participated in as a experience, will be a method relying on the fantasy and conjuring up a attraction, prior to spending on a purchase,
My experiences and choices made are underpinned with the receiving demonstrations as the method used as the minimum, it offers a confidence that the preparations prior to a purchase have been adequately considered and acted upon.
Worse case scenario if you stick close to 5K, the added time to make an allowance for receiving demonstrations, prior to purchasing can be a few months+. The added costs incurred to create opportunities to experience Brands and their Models of TT's might add $500 to the budget, especially if a accommodation is needed for a over night stay.
Drawing on my own assessment of my attempts to receive demonstrations of devices and encounter new experiences, the additional costs are negligible, as over the multiple years of receiving demonstrations, the learning acquired from the experiences encountered and the continued welcome to share with individuals much more educated and adept than myself, has been monies very well spent on the method used to acquire knowledge and education.
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Kuzma Stabi Model TT's are the ones I have been quite impressed by for a period of time.
There is a openness from the manufacturer about the adopted methods for the production, and within this disclosure there is undoubtedly a use of modern design, modern materials in combination with the technology utilised by the Company.
The Bearing Housings also look to be a cutting edge design and are definitely using materials of the type that I have been adopting to be used in modernisation methods.
I am tempted to thoroughly investigate this Companies Models and receive a demonstration when the time is right.
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A important consideration is that a multiple of suggestions made are coming from experiences gathered over many many years.
In most cases valuable attributes from experiences are maintained whilst other lesser valued methods used will have been subject to be changed or no longer used.
Keeping it very Simple, I started out with a Felt Platter Mat, I still own a Felt Platter Mat from when I started out, as I do the TT it was supplied with.
The Felt Platter Mat has not been used for more than 20 Years as a minimum, the TT that had the Platter Mat supplied with it has not been the main used TT for a similar period of time, but does get used occasionally to keep the ear attuned to this type of design and how it compares to the TT's in use today.
It is seen on forums that others recommend the use of a Felt Mat, I don't.
Others recommend the TT Model no longer in regular use, I do not.
My assessment is the the level of value I attach to the attributes of the Material and Device does not lend itself to my making a recommendation.
When the common lines of communication are being practiced, it is usual for Individuals to communicate in a manner that are mainly looking to deliver the key points that they believe will be most valuable for the enquirer to consider.
Convictions on this type of information can be strong and extend on to there being a defending stance made when another challenge/confronts the statements made.
Do keep in mind listening to replays of recorded music is a past time, and is soely intended to be a enjoyed experience.
Equipment used to achieve a replay, well that's another complexity to be added and there is not much fun to be found, if one chooses to go trudging through the quagmire that the subject so successfully stirs up.
In the analogue section on this forum, there are the few contributors that are 'Pigs in Poo' and in their element when equipment is the Topic in discussion and the mud flinging starts.
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The effects of other activities taking place within a local environment are able to create a transfer of energy that can be detected in a home.
I live in a rural area with neighbours properties approx' 300' ft away from my house.
Neighbours in their homes are not a concern and the activities they are involved with outside of their homes are not a concern, where creating energy transfer to my home is concerned.
Others using HiFi set Ups can be effected by a neighbours activities.
My Home is approx' 60' ft in from a Road, which for a large proportion of a day has substantial agricultural vehicles using it, these are very capable to transfer energies in to the home and are regularly felt passing by, and not only heard. In the Spring /Summer the vehicles operate for a long day, during the autumn/winter the road usage is much less.
The Fighter Jet Base can make the property rattle when the after burners kick in and this is from a mile away.
None of these environmental impacts, concern me during my listening periods, as I am aware of most of the times these will be present and choose not to use the main system, when the impact can occur.
Background music replayed through a simplistic device, is used to supply musical encounters, when the conditions are not ideal, and the music being replayed is totally satisfying.
Choosing a time to listen is what many who enjoy their HiFi systems do daily, if a environment is local that can effect the quality of the replay, choosing periods when quiet is present will be very beneficial, if sitting down when listening, footfall will not impact too much either.
All said and done, a little thought applied to discovering methods that can be used to mount a TT, will also add to ones knowledge and methods learned of might be adopted.
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@whart I like yourself have evolved into where I am at present with a LP Repaly Source.
I started out as a first attempt to build a dedicated HiFi System with a Belt Drive Linn Deck.
Not too long after I went for the Idler Drive Deck and have had these in a few versions, with completely rebuilt Platter Bearing Assemblies, as the main TT's in use for many many years.
Today I am using Vintage Japanese Direct Drive TT's, of which the main used model has a Platter Bearing Modification, and is to undergo a complete new design to be put into use. My other DD TT's are all to have a bearing housing with modern materials used to redesign the bearing.
My experience is that there can be endless efforts made to improve on a TT, but any of these only really seem to show their true value, when the Platter Bearing is totally optimised to function. Modern materials used in place of the parts selected when the design was produced, offer a very satisfying alternative.
Having purpose produced parts made, that are much improved in tolerances, over the generic parts used by the manufacturer, offers a much improved assembly of the bearing housing.
Additionally removing sacrificial parts belonging to the bearing assembly, that 'may' have developed a excess wear and 'potentially' been subjected to an non ideal environment to function in for many years is not a bad idea to consider either.
My experiences with the Idler drives with rethought out platter bearing designs is indelible, when the benefits of such a practice is recollected.
The start of this method used with the DD TT's is producing a very similar experience as well.
Hence, why the Kuzma TT's have caught my attention, the Platter Bearing produced for this Brand of TT, even though a different design to ones I have work carried out on, is produced using materials that I tend to consider to be utilised when a bearing is to worked on for me.
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I know that individuals who attach materials to measuring devices to check for Damping and Dissipation properties, will usually use a hammer to tap a suspended material or drop a steel ball from a pre determined height on to the material under test.
Is it possible the hammer seen to be more scientific as used in the above methods.
When using the hammer as a instrument for striking and using it in conjunction with the stylus resting on the LP?, would this be considered the best method to detect audible sound being generated through vibration, especially when striking the local structures with a a steel material.
It would be good to know why the hammer is seen to be so important for the test in place of a knuckle wrap which is quite a common method.
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There are seismic recording stations throughout the world, and like most sciences, the monitoring of the effects of the COVID 19 Pandemic on the world was a running live commentary for all with a scientific interest.
This Pandemic has been unique in this area, as science was interacting with the Virus daily, and learning from the experiences like no other Pandemic has allowed to happen.
Seismology is no different and it has made the data collected put to use, to see how the changes being witnessed in the readings of Seismic Noise were resulting from the changes made from Human Activities.
Seismic Noise is a unwanted recorded information, in that it is not from seismic activity, but environmental activity.
The impact of the Weather Systems on Land and in the Oceans remained consistent and maintained producing a Microseism with the average reading of 1Hz recorded for the Seismic Noise.
Human Activity can produce 1Hz - 40hz and the average levels of Anthropogenic Noise produced during the lock down was 4Hz, the data shows as the Human Activities were reduced over the period of time and larger proportions of the populations were put into lockdown the Anthropogenic Noise dropped along with the reduced activities.
The above although recorded on a seismic recording device are tremors and not seismic activity.
Seismic Activity is from Earthquakes and Tectonic Plate Activity, as well as magma moving within the earths crust.
Seismic Activity that is being recorded with levels detectable above Higher Anthropogenic Seismic Noise levels, when present local to an environment with a TT in use, will most likely cause a Needle to skip a groove or two as the minimum, but this does depend on the bedrock in the area as well, as the make up of this can reduce the impact felt on the surface from the transferred energies.
What ever way it is thought about, the golden times of listening to a music replay on a TT, with the least seismic noise creating a welcome impact, came to an end, when the Lockdowns were lifted.
I hope all our forums Vinyl Loving Friends got a few extra hours with their set ups when free time was plentiful.
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Many TT owners are Wed to one Brand and One Model and are usually only owning one TT.
In some cases there are the same as above for the TT in daily use but other TT’s are owned, some of the additional owned TT’s may be in a set up condition allowing them to be used at leisure.
Focusing on the pleasure to be had from listening to replays on a variety of TT’s as the motivation to have a selection of TT’s, when this is a method used, the owners of the selection of TT’s that I meet with, are usually appraising of the TT’s in use and not too concerned about the gap in the technologies that separate them.
I have a selection of TT’s but use one model as my go to TT.
A friend has a Goldring Lenco produced in the 70’s, Thorens Belt Drive ’modified’ from the 70’s, Linn LP12 produced in the 90’s, Technics SP10R.
All are in use and each is savoured for the presentation they can deliver and the alternate experiences each can offer.
The Spec for three of the TT’s to aspire to is very well known, but neither is judged negatively for this.
It was the good impressions made from these TT’s that encouraged another to sell their SME 20/12 with Series V and purchase a Garrard 401, they preferred the Idler Drive presentation at this stage in their life.
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@pjrebordao Thank You for the link.
As a very long time Idler Drive user who ultimately went for a modern design concept for the drive method and acquired a PTP Solid Nine.
I have also spent my time listening to other iterations of the methods adopted to be used with the Idler Drive System and observed many more iterations used for the Idler Drive TT.
With the above in mind, the knowledge that the Idler Drive has been seen as a viable product in todays TT Market and a New Model is now available, is very good news for a individual keen to continue with the drive mechanism, the one in the link could be proven to be a uber modern concept for the Idler Drive mechanism.
I am looking forward to encountering this design and thoroughly getting to grips with the impression it can create.
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There isn't any real need to limit a choice for a Tonearm to one Brand or to go to the expense of the SME Series V.
To get a demonstration of the V might be a little more difficult than other Brands, as Cadence the new owners of SME, enforced the changes in marketing, with the recent changes enforced affecting how the Arms can be purchased. SME has stopped singular Tonearm items being available. The only method to acquire a New Model today is with a SME TT, leaving the singular item purchase as most likely being a used item.
There are other models that I am aware you are considering and are worthwhile trying to experience through demonstration, prior to making any decision for the Tonearm that is to be selected.
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@systembuilder22 The last paragraph is a recent statement made in another thread that should make sense to you.
There is no scoffing or contempt before investigation when I read your post.
I have used Idler Drives for many years and am not too many years separated from using a Idler Drive as my daily TT.
I am sure that in the not too distant, if the ears deteriorate, I will be a MM user for all my replays, no point in pretending the MC is the better Cart' when the ears are not so young anymore.
My last hearing test ended with the clinician informing me I was still able to hear and my HiFi investments are still worthwhile, the next test might be a different story.
"Having a demonstration, preferably in the home system, is the most important if the enjoyment of listening to a music replay is the priority, ones ears being used in the selected environment for the equipment, are the only methods required to tell if the set up is delivering in a totally satisfying manner for the end user".
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@saulh the OP has made the following statement, which pretty much means he is keen to be able to receive a demonstration of from a local support network.
"to narrow down the decision, I am want to restrict myself to things I can buy, hear and, if necessary, service locally. My local dealers stock, AMG, AVM, Basis, Clearaudio, Michell, Musichall, Pro-ject, Rega, VPI, so I am likely restricted to those brands".
If the OP follows through with this intention they will have at the least received a demonstration of TT's of interest in their locality, resulting in the most important that their ears being used as the Judge, their eyes will certainly have a influence, and any third party influences being introduced from a sales viewpoint will potentially impact on a overall assessment.
Many years ago in my earliest days of receiving demonstrations of TT's and TT's vs CD at a Dealership with a dedicated listening room, I would ask to be left by myself and not be exposed to the Sales Pitch, I would only ask for the support of sales when a device was to be exchanged, I would encourage the OP to adopt this method of carrying out a demonstration as well.
The OP does anticipate that their own selections might be increased with suggestions from others being offered.
I really do hope the OP does receive demonstrations of devices that are of interest, and even better is using the local suppliers, try and have a follow up Home Demo' as well.
In my Country not too many years past when Dealerships were abundant and regularly available to visit, the idea of a customer requesting a follow up Home Demo' was a recognised part of the service, a purchase made on their premises only was an easy sale.
To purchase a device on the strength of hearsay or a review is using fantasy as ones guide, no matter what they conjure up in their minds to justify the purchase the reality of a performance from the product when encountered can prove to be quite different during the assessment , to how another's assessment and description relates to it.
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@saulh You have been demonstrated a selection of TT's of which one has stood out with the impression made.
Question are all demonstrations undertaken as per the following:
1, In the same Listening Environment
2, Is each TT set up on the same mounting method.
3, Is the TT's using the same Tonearm and Cartridge.
4, Is the downstream devices beyond your Phonostage the same.
If the answer is no, then there is the possibility that the set up for the TT and the entirety of the system is to be included in the assessment, that has made one demonstration be perceived as more attractive.
This week end as an aside demonstration at a HiFi Club meet, two Ortofon Kontrapunk B's were presented, One said to be NOS with only a few hours of usage ( A Cupboard Find from a Dealership ), the other a Retipped Model with a Paratrace Styli.
These were mounted in Two Different Headshells, one being a Oyaide Carbon Fibre and the other a more commonly found Aluminium design.
Both were replayed in the same system using the same Tracks.
The Cart's were recognisable as being from the same family, they were quite Ortofon in their delivery.
What stood out was how the Two Cart's demonstrated as more like Cousins than Twin Siblings. They were quite different and distinguishable for the differences.
I have suggested this is carried out once more, and I will supply Two Identical Magnesium Headshells, as I know this Cart' Model very well and can only suggest at present the Headshell Materials and how the energies were managed by these materials, were a substantial contribution to the SQ being perceived.
It seems from this that a small change such as a Headshell can be quite influential in how a presentation from a system is being assessed, transfer that to change of TT mounting, change of Tonearm and Cartridge.
A home demonstration will help with your decision, and might prove so valuable to you, the monies that could be saved through a selection and then directed toward a streamer, might just materialise as the result.
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I have been familiar in the past with the Korf Web Pages and have often wondered why there has not been a comparison to a Audio Technica Magnesium or Technihard Duraluminium Headshell.
I would have liked to have seen how the Ceramic from Korf compared.
I am in the process of acquiring a Technihard Headshell to compare to my other Headshell of preference material being Magnesium.
The use of Technihard as a Headshell has arose, due to a very positive impression a AT 677 has made in my system.
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