End of a long quest to vanquish sibilance.

For the sake of completeness, I can't definitively claim that the sibilance couldn't have been eliminated utilizing a different speaker while retaining the pavers. 

However, given that the sibilance disappeared with my current speakers, I didn't feel compelled to try yet another speaker, because I really enjoy the Silverlines.

@ghdprentice 

I believe I saw an audiologist in the spring of 2022, soon after I began to notice sibilance.  

And yes, I systematically swapped out integrated, transport, DAC and all cables in accordance with another forum member's suggestions. 

@stuartk

Yes you have meticulously documented the multitude of changes you have done to deal with this problem on more than one thread. Swaps in CD players, preamps (I think), speakers, cables… we have even discussed this off line. Hasn’t it been over a year now?

@toddalin

Your focus on "removing doubt" makes perfect sense, given your occupation.

You mention the difficulties of "back and forth comparison" as if the difference between the presence of sibilance and its absence is subtle and fleeting. Given that you haven’t heard what I’ve been contending with, this is an understandable assumption but it’s also inaccurate. At this point, I’m not going to recount what’s already been described in earlier threads.

The point of this thread was simply to inform those who’ve taken an interest and offered suggestions where things currently stand. Whether I’ve presented a credible "case" is another story, entirely. I’ll leave it up to guys to make up their own minds. What matters to me is that I’m no longer assailed by an incredibly frustrating and seeming unsolvable problem and that those with whom I’ve shared communications know it’s finally been put to rest.

BTW, I’m an intuitive, artistic type but I did follow guidelines provided by an engineer regarding how to approach this issue systematically.

"All I can do is report what I’ve observed to the best of my ability."

Then I would say make a YouTube video both ways so one can instantaneously evaluate the difference in real time. Then you can actually demonstrate this phenomenon for all to hear and remove any doubt. A YouTube video easily has the ability to demonstrate sibilance.

This is something else I do, even if the videos are just for my own use.

As far as I can tell, there is no real way that anyone could do an instantaneous back and forth comparison any other way. Granted, people will not hear exactly what you hear in the room because they are hearing it over different monitors in different environments. But sibilance, or a lack thereof, will be clearly evident over most any system of any quality.

I’m not an engineer either. But I am a scientist.

@toddalin 

I'm thinking that few here actually believe that the material differences of the ceramic clay as opposed to ??? is the cause of sibilance.

Having swapped out everything else with no change, the sibilance disappeared when the pavers were removed. I'm not an engineer so I can't definitively prove there is a causal relationship. All I can do is report what I've observed to the best of my ability.

@prof 

Thanks! 

cool. Thanks for the further details.

I’m glad you found your solution.

Coincidentally, I spent a long time experimenting

With various heights and materials underneath my

When making a platform for them to stand on.

Changing the height and the materials underneath the speakers

Certainly changed the tone of the speakers.  So I ended up finding
A height and combination of materials that gave me exactly the tone I was looking for.

Again, get them to the same spot/height/tilt/incline/distance/etc. with and without the pavers to see if that's really what's doing it.

I'm thinking that few here actually believe that the material differences of the ceramic clay as opposed to ??? is the cause of sibilance.

@stringreen 

I experimented with toe-in as well as raising lower speaker and listening chair heights. While these experiments did affect sound-staging and tonality, I perceived no effect on sibilance. 

With the pavers out of the equation,using my original speakers, there is no sibilance and the highs are definitely not harsh -- that is one thing I cannot tolerate. 

@prof 

FYI, I did try an EQ. 

suspected the hf driver in your original speakers....

So, I will reiterate : "Everything matters" actually does mean every thing!
 

^^^^  Actually, everything probably doesn’t matter.

And it’s probably just that mindset that led you to take

two years to figure out something that probably could’ve been solved

tith a tone control or equalizer or room correction (if not first

simply adjusting the angle of your speakers).

I haven’t read your previous accounts, but my guess is you were lead

On wild goose chases, Such as fiddling around with cables and 

all that stuff? 

"I endured sibilance for a long time. I'm far more familiar with it than I'd prefer to be. It hasn't returned since I removed the pavers. Why would I want to bring the pavers back?"

Too see if that was really the cause or was it some nebulous thing that somehow or other was failed to be considered and got changed as happenstance and it wasn't the pavers at all.

I would be more inclined to believe that it was the physical height of the components putting the tweeters slightly off axis, or such, making a difference rather than the material that the stands are made from.

When I make changes to a speaker, I will most typically go back and forth between what they are and what they were to see if the differences "stuck" or was it...??? 

@sls883

No problem. I’ suspect we’ve all done that from time to time!

@stuartk   I should have read the rest of the post before I questioned it.  Glad you got it figured out.  Sibilance absolutely drives me nuts. 

OP,

‘Yes, you really tried absolutely everything. 

@sls883

As I’d already swapped out everything else in the system with no reduction of sibilance prior to swapping out the pavers, I don’t regard this as necessary but thanks for the suggestion.

@stuartk  I just thought that it would confirm that it was the pavers causing the sibilance.  

@sls883 

I endured sibilance for a long time. I'm far more familiar with it than I'd prefer to be. It hasn't returned since I removed the pavers. Why would I want to bring the pavers back? 

Maybe this was asked, but if you put the pavers back where they were, does the sibilance return? 

@immatthewj 

I'd rather not disclose the make/model of the speakers. They are very highly regarded, as is their builder and I have no desire to raise any doubts about either. Based on what I've read, I'm very much an outlier in terms of how they sounded to me in my room. 

@noromance 

I don't know whether this matters but, due to weight considerations, I actually had two pavers, butted up against one, under each stand. The pavers were textured, so there was a bit of a gap between each pair. 

I think we can all agree, given the OP’s evidence, that the single one entity causing sibilance, was the use of concrete pavers under the speaker stands. If that is the case, then some quality of the installation must be responsible. I have my own speculations, but does anyone have any specific, um, concrete explanation as to the cause of this effect? I’d love the opportunity to be on-site to find the answer.

@stuartk , this was an interesting read. I am happy for you that you resolved the issue. It’s interesting, because I’ve read other posts in other threads by listeners who found squares of concrete as a satisfactory way of elevating their tweeter height; I think I may have read of a reviewer or two talking about that. I am not questioning/doubting you at all; just noting that. I’ll remember it for my own purposes as well. My chair happens to put me at a height that my ears are at or maybe even a bit below my tweeters, and I can adjust by adjusting my slouch.   Not too crazy long ago I was breaking in/auditioning a new pair of speakers, and I think it was a distortion test track on a test CD I was playing with, and I remember thinking that I heard the distortion more clearly when I was sitting up & my head was more forward. Which I guess should maybe equate to my hearing being better in that position? I played around with that aspect of listening for a little bit, but that was driving me neurotic and totally taking the pleasure out of the experience.

Anyway, just out of curiosity, which speakers were you trying out that led you to solving the issue by removing the pavers?

Now that you mention it, on occasion, when I’ve cranked the volume so I can hear it better in another room, I’ve noticed a fatiguing edge. I never turn it up that loud when in my listening chair, though.

As far as the above, not that it applies to sibilance, but back in the 90s, on the weekends when I was doing the majority of my listening, I had my system in the living room and I would be drinking and having a good time during my listening and I would frequently have it cranked up to earbleed levels; in the living room it would sound pretty dirty at those levels, but when I would go out to the backporch where I was barbecuing, it still seemed LOUD, but I thought it sounded pretty good from back there. (Now my system is in a smaller dedicated back bedroom, and the way I listen is considerably different.)

@deep_333

Your interpretation is entirely off the mark.

Maybe consider reading things a little more carefully before jumping immediately to erroneous conclusions.

+1 on that.

I wonder how many people suggested you buy expensive speaker cables or power conditioners. Glad you were able to wide through the snake oil. 

@mijostyn

Now that you mention it, on occasion, when I’ve cranked the volume so I can hear it better in another room, I’ve noticed a fatiguing edge. I never turn it up that loud when in my listening chair, though. 

@stuartk Many people habitually do not play their systems loud because they do not like it or they live in a situation where it would be unacceptable like an apartment complex. I promise you if it sounds balanced at low levels at some point when you turn it up it will make you squint. This assumes that you are not a Martian or deaf. 

@ghdprentice Neither do I because my system is tuned for high levels. Unless you can accommodate, your system sounds dull and bassless at very low levels. This assumes you are not a Martian or deaf.   If you are telling me your system sounds great at 95 dB and at 70 dB without a frequency response adjustment you are a Martian and deaf to boot. What human ears do a various volumes is a scientific fact. 

Happily I only had trouble with sibilants only with one speaker solid state preamp decades ago. Never since at any volume.

@mijostyn 

All I can say is that I haven't experienced any noticeable link between volume and  sibilance at the levels I typically employ. Doesn't mean it's not happening-- I simply don't hear it. Sibilance might get worse at levels higher than 75dB but I never push the volume that far. Below say 65dB, my system doesn't come alive. This could be due to the size of the space relative to the small drivers and/or noise floor of the components. 

There are two sources of sibilance, recording generated and system generated. There are a few recordings that are sibiant no matter what you do other than generate a Grundy Notch Filter, will remain sibilant.

System generated sibilance is virtually a universal problem. Everyone is aware that the easiest way to cure sibilance is to turn down the volume. Everyone should be aware that the frequency response of our ears changes with volume. Fletcher and Munson demonstrated this and generated a series of frequency response curves or Loudness curves. As volume increases our ears become more sensitive to Bass and treble. If I remember the inflection point is at about 3500 Hz. To achieve the same loudness at say 90 dB that you have at 70 dB you have to decrease the bass and treble about 10 dB. A flat curve never sounds right. It will have to little bass and too much treble. If a system is tune to sound right at 70 dB when you turn it up to 95 dB you will have way too much treble and decent bass. The end result is sound that makes one squint. To add insult to injury our hearing is most sensitive at 3500 Hz and it is in this area that sibilance is most prevalent. This is also where the BBC's Grundy notch filter or curve is active. There are only two cures for a sibilant system, use a lower volume that is not sibilant and digital signal processing.  There is a volume for each individual recording that sounds right depending on the volume it was mixed at. You either play at that volume or generate an equal loudness curve for a higher volume. I have three different equal loudness curves programmed, one of the three usually works well. For bad recordings I have a BBC Grundy notch filter I can add. 

Fiddling with equipment is a costly and usually ineffective way of dealing with sibiance. Sound absorption at all the first reflection points might help, but won't get rid of the problem entirely. The best way to deal with this was the dynamic loudness control in the Tact 2.2X and it was wonderful. The system sounded exactly the same regardless of volume. Unfortunately that unit died after 20 some odd years. So, I bounce back and forth between the three curves and listen at the volume things sound right.  

@philliprcook 

You may be right. From what I can tell from listening, it seems to be more a function of the material than the height change. 

Concrete, being a denser and stiffer material than wood, tends to have a higher resonant frequency and may be a reason for increased high end.

@philliprcook 

If the stands themselves had been shortened, then I suppose they would be more rigid. But that's not the case, here.  

Now the stands are in contact with the hardwood floor, which certainly has more mass than the pavers, if that matters. Also, I wasn't using single pavers -- I had two pavers butted up against one-another under each stand. Perhaps that was a factor? 

Perhaps someone with more expertise in such matters will comment.

Is it possible then that since it's not height, it could be the increased rigidity of the speaker vibrating the tweeters? 

@philliprcook 

I was thinking it had something to do with the pavers, rather than the height.

If I lift myself up a few inches from my listening chair, so that my ear is positioned roughly where it used to be with pavers in place, I hear no sibilance.

You are far more knowledgable than I am but I find it very difficult to believe that every vocal CD I own is equally flawed in this regard. 

I’m an old professional audio guy who spent over 25 years fighting sibilance in the analog magnetic tape era. I must say this post brings back many memories dealing with high frequency distortion. Eliminating sibilance was probably the hardest thing I dealt with. It will be interesting to see if your sibilance problem was really resolved by removing the paver. I could be wrong, but a couple inches of speaker height shouldn’t cause the introduction of sibilance, especially after the other room treatments had no effect on it.Consider that instead of something being wrong with your system, it could be that something is just right to the point that you can hear sibilance recorded in the original.

@deep_333

Your interpretation is entirely off the mark.

Maybe consider reading things a little more carefully before jumping immediately to erroneous conclusions. 

Having swapped out everything except speakers, with no impact on sibilance, I identified a pair of monitors that 1) I could afford, 2) are universally praised and 3) come with a refund policy. I figured this was the only thing left to try, aside from power conditioning.

So, I will reiterate : "Everything matters" actually does mean every thing!

So, only the speakers mattered in your case (everything didn’t matter, apparently)...you replaced your trash speakers and the sibilance went away. You tried replacing everything else and the sibilance remained. Stop confusing yourself.

@stuartk ,

Some people are sensitive to time and phase inaccuracies. Your mentioning 'sibilance' would be one of characteristics -A subtle harshness in the upper frequencies.

B

Hey @stuartk 

I’m so glad to hear you fixed your sibilance issues! I was given permission to buy the new speakers we have talked about, so now I’ll have hundreds of hours to fiddle with them until they’re just right.😁

I wonder if the lowering of the speakers by removing the pavers took you out of a hot spot in the vertical dispersion pattern of the speakers. You could slump down a few inches in your chair and see if it returns.

Joking aside,  maybe I'm fortunate enough to have the space (and funds) enough to accommodate all the  equipment but I do have 3 different kind of speakers I play around with.  A pair of martin logan sequel II and dynaudio contour 60 and a pair of horns .

It all depends of the taste of the week,  jazz rock classical electronic ..

Btw I set my eyes on my next pair ( avantgarde colibrie) should arrive in about 8 weeks 😁

Anything helps on glass but a heavier weave seems like it would be better.

Black matters not for sound but for video reflection from the projector screen. This is our everyday "TV" set.

@toddalin

Oh, they make a difference. It is just small and you can’t do any of these things in "real time" so that you can instantaneously go back and forth to actually "hear" the small differences.

Sounds plausible.

BTW, I have a glass coffee table and I put a black cloth over it both for projector and sound purposes.

What type of fabric, exactly? Why choose black over any other color? 

"Well, I’ve tried covering the coffee table’s glass top, slate hearth and glass-fronted fireplace insert with blankets and foam and heard no difference. I hate tipped up or otherwise fatiguing sound so if doing these things made a perceptible difference, I would surely do them! I have lots of glass and closing the lined drapes also makes no difference. I’ve been told that covering glass with most fabrics will not help much and this has certainly been my experience. If I had a dedicated room, I would try attaching some of the "tuning" devices sold by Synergistic Research to glass surfaces but my wife, understandably, is not open to this in the living room."

Oh, they make a difference.  It is just small and you can't do any of these things in "real time" so that you can instantaneously go back and forth to actually "hear" the small differences.

I would bet that if you get an app for your phone that does frequency analysis, or a Real Time Analyzer, you could see the small differences and compare them side-by-side.

BTW, I have a glass coffee table and I put a black cloth over it both for projector and sound purposes.

https://youtu.be/axP5o643kfI

@audphile1

Thanks!

@asvjerry

Yes; the Silverlines sound fine. I don’t, at this point, see any justification in attributing fatigue or sibilance to them. I may look into replacing them, at some point, but for now, I’m more inclined to be guided by the "if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it" maxim. I’m more inclined to explore DACs as I’m pretty certain the Hegel integrated’s internal DAC can be bested by a separate DAC.

@iseland

Sure -- if you can afford it! Why not? That’s not my situation, though. Even if I had teh $, I don’t have the space!

@dweller

Yes; of course. I get that. But I was experiencing exaggerated sibilance, on all vocal CDs.

@steakster

Moving the coffee table is impractical simply due to the room and existing other furniture. Not an ideal situation but it’s what I have to work with.

@barts

Well, I’ve tried covering the coffee table’s glass top, slate hearth and glass-fronted fireplace insert with blankets and foam and heard no difference. I hate tipped up or otherwise fatiguing sound so if doing these things made a perceptible difference, I would surely do them! I have lots of glass and closing the lined drapes also makes no difference. I’ve been told that covering glass with most fabrics will not help much and this has certainly been my experience. If I had a dedicated room, I would try attaching some of the "tuning" devices sold by Synergistic Research to glass surfaces but my wife, understandably, is not open to this in the living room.

@roadcykler

I can’t argue with your logic. All I can report is that 1) having removed the pavers sibilance is gone and 2) with previous (less resolving) components and the same speakers, there was no sibilance.

@ltmandella 

While I've read about that scenario, I've never noticed it. 

Seeing as how speakers are the only possible thing that might produce "sibilance" I'd have checked those first, but maybe that's just me. 

@steakster  +1

I can easily hear the "glare" coming off the coffee table in front of the listening position.  So that somehow disappeared into the garbage truck one day.

Shouldn't be anything between you and the speakers unless of course it sounds better to the user.  Not my experience though.

Now let's talk about wing chairs!

Regards,

barts

@sls883 +1 I replaced my front coffee table with an end table by the side of my chair. Whatever works. 🤔

It's important to realize that sibilance, and other distortions, are sometimes "baked in" to the recording. Nothing to do about this. 

That's why you need at least 3 pairs of speakers, 2 preamps 3 pairs of amps 4 dacs 2 phonostage 3 turntables and 5 sets of all kinds of cables!!!

@stuartk ​​@nonoise @ et all......

Happy that the former had 'solved' his issue with sssibilancesss, but it does point out that 'what you hear IS what you hear'....until you change Something within the chain of your devices..........

And, of course, the space they're within...

And the old Silverlines sound OK now....?

Congratulations!  You've rewired your brain...
It's as simple as that...