Eliminated my preamp with amazing results

@ozzy 

The LEEDH processor in the Lumin streamers is indeed fine sounding.

When I purchased my Lumin X1 a few years back, I started going direct to my mono blocks. And I totally agree, once I experienced music without the preamp in the chain I could never go back.

ozzy

I am using a preamp, but it's a Hattor Audio passive device. I haven't heard any active preamp in my system (up to about 8K) that could beat a well designed passive. Not all systems will perform optimally without a preamp. But when it comes together, it's pretty darn good.

OP, you didn't mention your speakers and their specs. That's important, I think.

I have tried the following alternatives to my tubed preamp, with both tube and class A amps:

• eliminated the preamp -- result was harshness and lack of soundstage. The midrange lost all intimacy.
• tried a very high quality passive preamp -- same as no preamp, though not as harsh. Lack of vitality and oomph with my 89db sensitivity speakers, which are not that hard to drive, overall.
• tried a very quiet and neutral solid state preamp. Even tonality returned, most harshness disappeared, still not that much of a soundstage but there is one. There is vitality back in the presentation.

Of the three, the neutral solid state preamp was the best, but even it does not hold a candle to my deHavilland with a really great 6SN7 tube. It's just not close.

So PC-software-DAC-amp brings up the question: what software/volume control to use to play PC files. I only experiemented to simply find the volume control/software that allows the highest output (amp input not sensitive enough). Didn't consider quality (and haven't concluded yet on easy of use regarding software choice). 

I assume, there are already lots of threads/posts on that subject. 

Not too long ago I had an OMG experience like the OP when playing the physical CD I had just ripped from my office laptop (with super long 25 ft USB C cable to Shiit DAC using same receiver and analog cable and switched between  (basic run of the mill) CD player and laptop. "NOT subtle". Never thought that the DAC even in a low budget system can make such a difference (obviously, the DAC in the CD player was horrible, and has since been upgraded). 

@mitch2 

Also, I am curious, are you running the direct (unbuffered, i.e.,  purely passive, volume control only) outputs from the TLC-1 or going through the buffered outputs.  I believe the buffered outputs provide unity gain, which should not result in any loss of dynamics and/or bass response.

Using neither. I have tried both outputs. Buffered sounds better imo but currently the preamp is completely disconnected. Perhaps the elimination of the volume control and cables is having a positive effect.

@amtrod 

Resolution, sound stage, detail, and drive are all very accurate, and I find the center image a LOT stronger.

Agreed. Much more holographic. The bass is tight and textured and the highs are just wonderful. 'S' sounds are clean. Overall more engaging.

I'm not getting rid of my preamp just yet. However, the sound is getting better the more I listen. 

BTW... Audirvana has a 'master volume max limiter'. If by chance you accidentally hit the volume slide bar it won't go over a prescribed level. I think Roon has the same protective feature.

Keeping your preamp is a great advise, but don’t let anyone tell you what you like. Your system, room acoustic, and personal taste matters the most. 

You never know what sounds best until you try different combos,  

Yes, be careful with the DSP software based volume control.  You might be able to set a safe limit depending on application software used.   I know you can do that several different ways with Roon.  
 

I recently tried using my Bel Canto DAC 2.8 direct into an older modified Adcom GFA-555 (Musical Concepts).  Source was either Google Audio puck, or a Apple MacMini. So far, I really like it a ton, and can't detect any audio resolution issues with the (digital?) audio control on the Bel Canto.  Resolution, sound stage, detail, and drive are all very accurate, and I find the center image a LOT stronger.  Though, it doesn't have the "drive" like it had when using a Rega Elex-R integrated.

That system was a bit like having a loudness button on- great drive, power, presence, weight, but also condensed.  I am liking things more realistic and articulate so far. 

@audphile1 

👍😊

I have eliminated my preamp with amazing results at least 3 times…

I just add a tube pre-amp to my active speakers...

Here in my case it is for sure positive as i was expecting...

Correcting mismatch or compensation, or addition of something else like tubes in my case, it is always relative to many factors not only the gear synergy but the room  and your ears..

We cannot say buy a preamp always or i dont need one... It is each case  different ... And all pre are not from the same mold ...

the preamp vs direct-to-amp debate is a well worn one here on this board, there has been ample discussion in numerous posts over the years, including some very good, recent ones

as can be expected, the specifics will dictate results yielded, so it is great that the op tried for himself... in this digital age with many wonderful dacs having robust output stages, i have had success myself not running a linestage anymore

Get rid of your noisy laptop and buy a true far cleaner server streamer 

like a innuos ,or something with a quality linear power supply night and day better then a laptop .that’s a for sure.

@toro3 Good memory. Yes, the DAC 200’s preamp stage is very good, even though I get better results setting it to line out and using the T+A HV series preamplification. On its own, the DAC 200’s preamp stage will compete with standalone preamps in the $3K range. 

I honestly haven’t come across a lot of DACs with great preamp and volume stages. I absolutely hated the one on the Tambaqui, even if the DAC itself is quite good. Lampizator makes very good ones, say for the Baltic 3 and 4 and above. Though it has a high quality streamer/server built in as well, the Aurender A20 ans A30 units are really strong performers and sound great hooked up directly to an amp. The performance of those units far surpass the preamp stage and volume control of the A15. For the Meitner MA3 and Cambridge EDGE NQ, I actually really like both units as a DAC with volume control. The MA3 is a DAC first, where the EDGE NQ is a preamp first, but with both units I don’t like their built in streaming performance. 

I want to be candid that I am an authorized dealer T+A, Aurender and Cambridge Audio. I have no affiliation with Mola Mola, Lampizator and Meitner/EMM.

@blisshifi 

I have experimented with this countless times, and I have found only a few DACs under $15K with a built-in preamp stage or volume control that sound better without a quality preamp in the chain.

If my memory is correct you’ve mentioned that the T+A DAC 200 preamp section is pretty good. What other DACs volume control or preamp section impressed you?

Oh yes the Dude preamp! I miss mine also. I had a fully tricked out one that Paul helped me to upgrade. 

I really REALLY like my Tortuga Audio LDR attenuator for much the same reasons.

It`s crystal clear, has nice sound staging etc etc... Runs off the grid with a battery

which brought a blacker background to the mix.

Overlooked way too often !

I had a Lampizator Big 7 DAC with a volume control. I ran directly into the KR Audio Kronzilla amp and it sounded very clean and dynamic leading me to believe I could ditch my preamp, which I found advantageous since my preamp did not have a remote volume control . But it eventually became clear to me that the TRL Dude preamp (sorry I sold that later!) added much more life to the music and it was soon back in my system. 

I'm always amused when members ask if they should/should not pull out a preamp because the answer is always a personal one.

It's been a very long time since I've seen an impedance mismatch so large a DAC with a volume control could not directly drive an amplifier.  Everything else is preference.

As others have said, report back in a few weeks and let us know if you still like the direct set-up better.  Also, I am curious, are you running the direct (unbuffered, i.e.,  purely passive, volume control only) outputs from the TLC-1 or going through the buffered outputs.  I believe the buffered outputs provide unity gain, which should not result in any loss of dynamics and/or bass response.

Yep, hang on to that preamp for a while. As others noted, just because something is notably "different" at first, does not always make it better to our ears - long term.

I can go straight from my digital source to my amp too, with volume control. While it can be more detailed along with other agitating digital grain artifacts, and loss of other key elements, that magically reappear when I put the DAC and/or preamp back into the mix. Definitely worth swapping back and forth every few weeks to help decide.

The key determinant here is the quality of the analogue section of the DAC. Given its output, the only part needed is the attenuator of the pre if absent in the DAC. Often DAC attenuators operate in the digital domain thereby losing bits at lower volume. Should the DAC have a good attenuator with a high quality analogue section all a separate pre will do is add distortion.

Be very careful with the volume control setting in the software.  It is easy to have it set to max for another application or have a separate software/operating system set it to high, and then if you don't catch it, and switch to music, it can risk damage to the speakers.  

I did the same thing and I liked the more direct dac to amp route better at first. Long term I preferred the preamp in the chain. YMMV. As others have mentioned, you might consider keeping your preamp for a bit. 

And while this may have a positive impact on some systems, I’ve found that high quality preamps deliver much more realism though improved clarity and harmonics,  and a wider soundstage with less noise across the board. I have experimented with this countless times, and I have found only a few DACs under $15K with a built-in preamp stage or volume control that sound better without a quality preamp in the chain. 

@ghdprentice

Great comment. You may find the initial change in sound is interesting and new, but it may not be your longer term preference. Give it a few weeks. I have found this to be true on several occasions over the years. You may end up preferring no preamp longer term, but try putting it back in the system in a couple of weeks to be sure.

Congratulations.

Yes, trying it if you own a preamp is a great idea.
 

Also, if your first impressions are positive, then keeping your preamp for a while is also a good idea. Sometimes longer termed listening reveals things that may not have been immediately obvious.