I have owned multiple discrete resistor passive preamps/volume controls, two autoformer preamps/volume controls (Acoustic Energy Jay-Sho and Smart icOn 4Pro), and two DAC-based volume controls that adjusted volume by changing the reference voltage (Metrum Acoustics Adagio and Jade).
Of all of those, when operated passively, only the autoformer volume controls preserved the dynamics, tone, and bass and to my ears did not sound thin. However, I tend to like the sound through discrete resistor volume controls so that is what I use, followed by a unity-gain buffer which preserves dynamics, tone, and bass.
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Here is the tally so far. Just for fun. Don’t read too much into it.
Preamp effect Positive: ///// ///// ///// ///// (incl. Paul & OCD mentioned in tread)
Preamp effect Negative: ///// /////
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Based on personal experience, I agree with Paul McGowen. Paul originally was a believer in the concept of the best preamp was no preamp at all. A decade ago, he then changed his mind about inserting a preamp in the system. I kept believing that the best preamp with no preamp until about a month ago. I then inserted a preamp between the DAC and the amplifier. What a positive difference it made. I cannot explain how introducing more circuitry into the signal path improves the sound quality. I’m absolutely clueless on that from a scientific basis.
I think you need to keep an open mind and try your system with and without a preamp. I will never go back to my previous position that no preamp is the best preamp
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The absolute best non active setup I have ever heard was an Autoformer volume control (AVC). The best overall setup I have heard was the AVC fed by a Jung Diamond buffer. The big issue with almost any active or passive pre is the quality of the volume control. So much is lost with the typical potentiometer.
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I’ve tried not using a pre s couple of times. First time with a Topping D70s dac running as a pre while trading a Creek integrated for my current preamp (SPL Elector). It was better -in some ways- than running the Creek as a pre into a power amp. But then got the Elector…no contest. Having a nice pre made everything come alive, open up and pull me into the music in ways I’d never imagined possible in my own system.
But then I got an Okto Research dac 8 stereo which actually had a very nice preamp stage. When I tied that in directly, it kind of closed that gap a bit. In some ways more dynamic and fast, but still not quite as balanced, staged, refined and nuanced as with the pre.
If I had a choice of amps to try, that could also change things. Synergy really goes such a long way!
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Tortuga Audio has an adjustable impedance feature:
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ozzy
PM sent. Happy Listening!
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@wsrrsw
FYI... Steve Huff gave a great review for the "Eversolo DMP-A8" as a more affordable (Just under 2K) streamer/preamp/DAC alternative to the Lumin U2 for thousands less. Worth a look.
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@gdaddy1
I tried those Harrison attenuators a while back and they killed the sound.
Well that kills that idea. People on Amazon said different ;)
Not sure about Paul McGowen. I would like to know what he or some other guru thinks.
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@cdc
I tried those Harrison attenuators a while back and they killed the sound. Didn't work for me. Paul McGowen is using them?
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He said he likes the volume knob UP around 2 to 3 o’clock position. He said the higher volume position has a "HUGE" impact on the resolution/sound.
How the heck can you accomplish this volume position?
Harrison Labs 12 dB RCA Line Level Audio Attenuator Pair
Like erik_squires said you need to be cognizant of impedance matching. I believe tube amps like 10-20K volume pots while solid state like 50/100K.
There are different kinds of passive pre’s and each can sound different. Digital, passives like Alps volume pot, Luminous Audio, and Light Speed.
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@erik_squires nailed the purposes of a preamp and, while preamps may be vestigial, the impedance advantages they offer, not gain, are likely the reason for the improvements that some report hearing compared to driving their power amplifiers directly from a digital device.
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I've been using this configuration (streamer instead of computer) for years with Chord DAVE DAC and now Lampizator GG3.
The warnings about being careful are un-necessary as you are just applying the same care you usually apply to the pre-amp to the DAC.
I've always been a minimalist and this is just a part of my strategy.
Jerry
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As many who know of me here, I have been generally barking up the tree, how wonderful my totl single ended Luminous Audio passive has been. Recently, I acquired from my friend rawsonte ( negative comments keep to yourselves ), a diy FW F4. Obviously for those of you that know the F4, I needed to put into action, one of my many preamps with gain. The Usher P 307A, along with the F4 ( Tim did an outstanding job ), is pleasing me to such a level, my recorded music reproduction is outstanding. My best, MrD.
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This brings up the question..."what is the function of a preamp?"
A very good question, @gdaddy1 which you almost answer completely, but I’d say a little off.
Besides source selection, a preamp’s jobs are:
- Level MATCHING
- Impedance MATCHING
- Equalizing (for phonographs)
Preamps used to have to contend with very low input signals, such as from a radio, so they often have way more gain than necessary. Amplifiers also had a variety of input impedance, and the phonograph, tape player or tuner may not have handled it well when connected directly.
To summarize, preamps provide high gain, high input impedance and low output impedance. That’s the technical reasons for a preamp instead of say, a passive volume control.
In the modern age, with relatively standard amplifier gains (20x) and high input impedances (25kOhms or higher) the preamp seems almost vestigial.
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This brings up the question..."what is the function of a preamp?"
My understanding is that it has 2 main functions. #1 is to control volume. #2 is allow selection of various source components. I didn't think the preamp was intended to 'add' anything to the signal and a good preamp does as little damage/degradation to the signal as possible. Adding gain does make the sound more lively but can amplify unwanted artifacts. For some, tube distortion is a positive thing. To each their own.
For some, it appears the purchase of a preamp may be an unnecessary expense and may even improve the sound by removing it.
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@eoj4952
Same thought different piece. Can a preamp be replaced by a cd player with volume control, be hooked directly into a 450 watt amp. Or would the speakers explode when turned on. I only play CDs
If the volume control works properly there is no reason the speakers would explode. It should effectively attenuate the signal going to the speakers just as a preamp would. If you're running this CD player through a preamp then you have 2 volume controls in the chain which is unnecessarily redundant and possibly affecting the sound negatively.
One way to find out.
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@mitch2 I did not have the DeHavilland preamp when I owned the Music Reference amp, but did use the Music Reference RM9 MK2 both with and without a preamp and never felt like I was missing anything when the Weiss volume control was used sans preamp.
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Adding a DeHavilland Ultraverve 3 preamp took my system to a new level, adding body and fullness
@pdreher
Did you ever try adding the DeHavilland Ultraverve 3 or some similar preamp when you were running the Weiss 202 DAC direct to a Music Reference RM9 MK2 amp? Is it possible you didn’t realize the level of “body and fullness” you were missing?
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+1 @pdreher ... with new amps (Quicksilver KT Mono's), volume control via the Weiss DAC sounded good (detailed and clean), but a bit on the lean and sterile side. Adding a DeHavilland Ultraverve 3 preamp took my system to a new level, adding body and fullness lacking when using the Weiss direct to amps.
The experience detailed above not only emphasizes the synergistic impact of a preamp but also underscores that its effect extends beyond mere volume control, a misconception held by many audiogoners here.
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Same thought different piece. Can a preamp be replaced by a cd player with volume control, be hooked directly into a 450 watt amp. Or would the speakers explode when turned on. I only play CDs
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As others have mentioned, my experience validates that not one size fits all, and results are system dependent and subject to user preference. I previously used the volume control of my Weiss 202 DAC direct to a Music Reference RM9 MK2 amp with excellent results. However... with new amps (Quicksilver KT Mono's), volume control via the Weiss DAC sounded good (detailed and clean), but a bit on the lean and sterile side. Adding a DeHavilland Ultraverve 3 preamp took my system to a new level, adding body and fullness lacking when using the Weiss direct to amps.
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@wolfie62
Don’t you risk overloading your DAC this way??
No. The signal is attenuated in Audirvana and then sent to the DAC. The DAC has the same demand as when using the preamp.
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I am straight from my DAC to my amp as of 10 months ago and couldn't be happier. I tried to go straight two times before, but couldn't pull it off:) Digital components are really improving.
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Don’t you risk overloading your DAC this way??
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@wsrrsw
Thanks !! Wow, That Lumin with LEEDH sounds like a perfect solution. Researching it now. I'm curious if they'll be at the Tampa show in February since I'll be there. Would be nice to talk to them. I wonder also are there any other companies making similar units? Very interesting.
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LEEDH processor in the Lumin (s) or a Grimm Mu2 (impossible to get) are two safe bets for just digital w/ no pre amp.
@gdaddy1 Here's another plea to loose the lap top.
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It's just a matter of time before one makes a mistake with the volume, which can take out $$$ tweeters/drivers...That's why I always prefer physical knobs.
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Music First BABY REFERENCE V-2 TVC PASSIVE….expensive yes….results…..read stereophile review ….SAM TELLIG….. got nothing else to add. RIDICULOUS
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I have heard several variations of integrated, pre/amp amp, ...then add tubes. Makes you rethink it all. Could be my Paradigms.
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Suggestion to gain better SQ in your system. Stop streaming from your computer. Get a dedicated streamer or streamer / player. I've never heard a desktop / laptop streamer that wasn't topped by even a modest dedicated made for music unit.
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darTZeel has an LDR preamp for $80K
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I'd be most happy to only rely on digital volume/level setting. So much more accurate, flexible and reliable to process a digital signal (DSP) compared to analog equivalent.
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Not so surprised as the Melos is an old preamp that most likely muted the sound compared to a more up to date preamp.
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The RME ADI-FS DAC has a volume control. It is a top-notch digital implementation; I believe the claim that the sound quality is the same no matter how low the volume setting.
- I turned my preamp volume to near maximum, then raised the DAC volume control to my desired listening level.
- Noted the dB level with a simple sound meter app in an Android device.
- Removed the pre-amp and raised the DAC volume to match the dB level.
In my case, I preferred the sound with the Van Alstine Transcendence RB 10 pre-amp.
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How are volume controllers in the anaolog signal path (after the DAC) done today? Not anymore a variable resistance (either potentiometer or a multistep switch with descrete, high quality resistors for each step)?
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If one carefully assesses impedance and voltage specs and/or any measurements available and how well each piece in the signal chain directly integrates with the others accordingly you might get a clue as to which combo is most likely to sound best, pre-amp or no pre-amp, but even then lots of other factors come into play so again each case is different and you have to directly compare approach a with approach b each time to in fact know which sounds better. What sounds better is also a function of personal preferences so throw that in and all bets are off. What others report with different gear involved is interesting perhaps but really not very useful to predict how each new and different case will turn out.
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There is no simplistic explanation for a preamplifier or against it ...
It is relative to electrical matching, volume control, tone control , the specs of the dac source and the spec of the amplifier and i forgot probably many other things...
There is no singular rule here as the simplistic eliminate the preamplifier all the time or put a preamplifier all the time ...
And which preamplifier tube or S. S. and for which amplifier Tubes or S.S. ? From which dac S.S. or a tube one ? etc...
You must read the electrical specs compatibility first then listen to it .,..
The preamplifier you eliminate can even be replaced by a better one... Or perhaps you dont need one really ... Do you need tone controls and tube sound and volume control ? etc
Do you need a headphone out absent from the power amplifier ? etc
😊
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My original version Schiit Freya has a passive setting (two actually, one with FET enhancement for longer cables supposedly) that lacks the gain of the tube setting but still...it's passive. I use it to keep the tubes "honest" (are they dying?) but prefer the tubes as I like the gain, and they pull more detail from the source and fool me into thinking I'm having a good time. They're NOS GE 6SN7GTBs that really last a long time ( years...I have a backup set in case they start deteriorating).
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No offense but I think we are repeating the story telling of the parable of blind men and an elephant. According to Wikipedia, the moral of the parable is that "humans have a tendency to claim absolute truth based on their limited, subjective experience as they ignore other people's limited, subjective experiences which may be equally true."
For me, understanding the intricate elements inside a preamp and how they synergize with other components remains a puzzle. Waiting for a knowledgeable person to shed light on what truly enhances the system's sound quality. Mr. Paul McGowan discussed the concept of 'separation' between the source and amplifier, speculating its impact. Additionally, he mentioned the potential benefits of negative feedback in enhancing linearity and distortion performance.
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I'm shocked that you guys with difficult to drive speakers and low gain/low input impedance amps find an active preamp to sound better. Shocked, I say!
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I had the opposite results when adding a preamp between my DAC and amplifier. Adding the preamp greatly improved the dynamics and the imaging. I have an older Audio Alchemy DDE v3.0 DAC and a Acoustat TNT120 amplifier with Kef Uni-Q’s. I put in a Klyne Audio Arts preamp and was astonished at the improvements.
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@kraftwerkturbo
So PC-software-DAC-amp brings up the question: what software/volume control to use to play PC files. I only experiemented to simply find the volume control/software that allows the highest output (amp input not sensitive enough). Didn't consider quality (and haven't concluded yet on easy of use regarding software choice).
Paul McGowen (PS Audio) got me started on this whole idea. He pointed out how a volume control is a restrictive device. Restricts resolution. Like putting on the brakes in a car. He said you should get the volume knob as high as possible so it does as little damage as possible. He said he likes the volume knob UP around 2 to 3 o'clock position. He said the higher volume position has a "HUGE" impact on the resolution/sound.
How the heck can you accomplish this volume position? This led me to use the Audirvana software using a 64 bit high quality controller(Roon also). This allowed a higher position on the preamp volume knob BUT now I was using two volume controllers. So now... lets eliminate one. Get rid of the worst and use the best and most simple.
It's possible that the reason a straight DAC sounds better than a passive preamp is the complete elimination of the restrictive volume control.
I also think people are fooled when they hear a preamp that has a boosted gain. The more dynamic sound is immediately noticeable but at what cost?
I experimented with a Melos tube preamp that adds 20db of line gain !!! Had a big sound with plenty of dynamics. "A fun sound". "Big and Blowsey" (as per stereophile) Couldn't get the volume knob up past 9 o'clock. Way too loud. Having high resolution music source then restricting the resolution with the volume knob seemed counterproductive.
FYI... higher end preamps use better quality 'digital volume controllers' or 'stepped attenuators' to deal with this problem.
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Being there done that. I played my Cary Audio 303/200 CDP directly connected to the Mark Levinson 23.5 via RCA connectors. Used the built-in digital volume control to adjust the volume. At first, music sounded immediate, up front with "better" dynamics, or at least I thought so. However, after listening for 2-3 hours, listening fatigue set in. On a different day, I tried the same exercise, but using VTL TL 2.5 preamp in the chain. This is a tube preamp with 2x12AU7 and 2x12AT7s.
Difference was immediately noticeable. Sound was laid back with much more realistic voices and even better bass! I noticed the soundstage was wider and deeper with the preamp. Without the preamp, music sounded immediate. As a result, the front layer contributed more to the total experience whereas rest of the soundstage contributed less. With the preamp, almost every layer appeared to contribute to the total experience.
I can understand the appeal of immediate impact of the sound without a preamp that gives you a near-field experience or a "headphone" effect even though you are seated outside of the near-field listening area. If this is your cup of tea, then I am very happy for you. But hang on to that preamp for a little bit longer :)
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I recently had the exact opposite experience. I was using my PS Audio Directstream DAC Mk1 as a preamp, hooked directly to my PS Audio M700 monoblocks, feeding a pair of Legacy Audio Signature SE speakers. After reading several "experts" opinions on preamps or not, ( including Paul McGowan who used to be a no preamp advocate but changed his mind) I decided to try one. I was a beta tester for the new PS Audio Stellar Gold Preamp. I found the improvement in SQ was significant. Larger soundstage, both width and depth, much blacker background, vocals more natural. Overall, just much more realism to the music. So perhaps it depends on the quality of the preamp, or perhaps one's sonic preference. All I know is that after I heard what that preamp did for my system, there was no way I was sending it back!!
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I have removed my Pass XP-12 from the chain in my system. Aurender A30 direct to my X260.8’s gives a more detailed and open sound, more air and separation, while not being harsh or fatiguing. The preamp adds more rounded sound, more full or lush sounding but my ears prefer no preamp at this time. I have moved the preamp in and out many times, both with Lumin U1 mini and A15 in the past. The A30 does it better for me . Not sure what a different preamp would do, certainly different but better, I’m not sure.
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I know folks will doubt or grind their teeth at this … I’ve directly connected a SONOS Port to my McIntosh amp(s) and been impressed with clarity and impact.
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When I had my Krell KRC-2 preamp recapped I hooked my DAC directly to my amp for about 3 weeks until I got my preamp back. First thing I observed was that the difference was very subtle. I had never tried bypassing my preamp before but I found that it didn't have much effect on the sound. When I got the pre back I hooked it up again and after a few days decided that I liked the sound better with it in the chain.
It's great to try these things and see what happens. Every system is different.
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One should do what is best for achieving their audio goals. What’s works for some will not for others, however you will never know until you try. OCD Mikey has done a couple videos on this very subject.
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@blisshifi very informative. Thank you for sharing!
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