Disappointment with Pass Labs - I'm looking for something else

If you do go with the Pass X250 and AR Ref 5 pre ... take a close look at the gain matching. I have Pass XA 60.8, AR Ref 6 and Avantgarde UNO speakers.  The I love the sound of my setup but I can’t turn the volume control past 5 without blowing my ceiling off (so to speak).  I had to add attenuators.

I know AR preamps have a lot of gain. In my case, when I tested an LS27, with the "low gain" setting I didn't have that problem.

I have Crites speakers which are quite similar in sound and setup to the Cornwall IV.  I use the Pass XA25 and find it to be quite neutral sounding, dynamic and great imaging.  I don't use a preamp. The 25 does not have 2nd harmonic distortion voiced into the amp.  This could be what you are hearing.  Also, I spent months positioning the speakers.  But it ended up being quite simple.  Point them so a line directly from center of each speaker intersects about 12 inches behind your head(not exact)  I also used the Vandersteen setup method.  This makes sure your speakers are not the same distance from the side wall as they are from the back wall to minimize phase and comb filtering.  I then had to add bass traps and diffusion panels.  This will really clean up imaging and bass definition.  Sub woofers can also open up the mid range. 

I did not care for tubes.    Muddy bass. 

I too wonder which preamp works good with this setup.  A tube preamp is often used but I would be asking which one just like you.  I am not sure a preamp would make my system sound better or not. 

I hate to see you start over.  It is frustrating and lots of work.  I see Ayre, Luxman, Accuphase and Sugden as solid state alternatives.  Based on reviews even expensive SS amps can sound too dry and clinical if you're not careful.  These alternatives I have listed would be Class A with a warmer presentation.    You do not need a big amp to drive these speakers.  The 30.8 actually puts out well over 100 watts and will break your eardrums before you break the speakers.  LOL

Yes, I know.

Another option is to see how the XA30.8 behaves when it comes out of Class A to go to A / B if I decide to switch from much less efficient speakers. I don't know if I read one day that Nelson commented that he went from accentuating the second harmonic to the third. Nor do I know if it will sound more forceful. I doubt it.

agree with many above....it is Klipsch.....

Yes, it is true that Klipsch are not high definition speakers. but this should not hide that the XA30.8 has a forcefulness problem and especially the XP12 have a resolution problem.

I read through the whole thing, LOL, NOW I'm 100% convinced.
OP Knows, that's why he ask! Must be tough to know the WRONG answer..

Starting over is a hard thing to hear.. Even if it is the answer..

45 years ago, I was like that.. I was in my 20's LOL.
So was Nelson Pass. Just kids... NOW he just laughs all the way to the bank..

I think the problem is OP bought Pass because it has a good reputation, NOT because it was a good match. He bought Klipsch, because it had a good reputation.

BUT nowhere did the OP read that the TWO go together.

In other word, TWO rights won't fix a wrong..

So I Quote "YES, I KNOW"

I wish you the best, BUT learning shouldn't cost, it should pay.

Regards

I'll second the Sugden recommendation. Warm, open, wide sound stage, 3d, powerful sounding despite the 30 watts, in speaking of my A21se.

@opm  Nelson Pass has some amplifiers that are 2nd harmonic dominant (many of the First Watt offerings) and some that are 3rd harmonic dominant (the XA25).  He's found that roughly 1/3rd of listeners prefer each, and 1/3 don't differentiate. 

Any amplifier that has a fully balanced design will eliminate all even-ordered harmonics, and thus will be 3rd harmonic dominant.  

This happens with First Watt. I built myself a couple of ACAs and it is.
But on the XA30.8 it seems to me that it donima the second harmonic and when it leaves class A, it dominates the third.

In fact, from how the Xa30.8 sounds, it looks like a second harmoic because of its warmth and depth

I had pass amps and I think they are designed for speakers with very high detail like wilson, magico, b&w D3, etc

Any amplifier that has a fully balanced design will eliminate all even-ordered harmonics, and thus will be 3rd harmonic dominant.  

This is what is known as a 'cubic non-linearity' as opposed to the quadratic non-linearity that expresses a dominant 2nd harmonic. Of the two, the cubic has the property of harmonics decreasing at a faster rate as their order is increased. So such circuits tend to sound more neutral since the ear assigns a tonality to all forms of distortion.

The best suggestion I have read in this thread is for you to select your speakers and then the amplification.

I would like to contribute something positive here, I suggest trying some speaker cables that add more resolution and dynamism, I recommend Kimber Kable Carbon 18 XL or similar. It can also be Shunyata Alpha v2. 

InI totally agree with you. I think that if you like the sound of valves, you have to buy valves and not an imitation. I think that with the XA series with XP it remains in an indefinite field, which is not just one thing or the other.

Darren Myers, engineer at PS Audio, recently commented in his podcast that he has loved Cornwalls with push pull tube amps based on EL34s.  Worth a try if you want to get the best out of those speakers.

If I were you, which I'm not, I would narrow the field first.  You have some highly sensitive speakers and they can do low wattage to high.  Get a single-ended triode tube amp.  For this I would recommend Decware, but I'm admittedly partial.  From there get a nice high wattage tube amp something like a AR, McIntosh, Cary, etc.. Also get something that is a very good AB solid state.  Do this while holding onto your Pass.  From there, play all of these for extended time.  It is said that the mind wanders to what the heart wants.  I would give it a good 30 days of heavy listening, swapping in and out.  Send back or sell what you don't like.  See if you can find an audio store that will work with you on your search. Now, whatever your heart wants, start sampling amps in that genre.  You will find the one.  At least one can hope.  I currently have 5 different systems set up in my house and kind of go from one to the other.  Some are steak and potato, some are hotdogs with chili sauce and onion and one that is total gourmet.  While you might like to eat gourmet every night, why do you find yourself craving a good dog with the works?  I decided a long time ago there isn't going to be just "the one" for me.  Once you find the perfect amp for those speakers, someone will talk you into trying a different pair of speakers and its lather rinse repeat all over again, but with speakers.  Every speaker has its good, better, best amp for it.  This changes with every pair of speakers I've listened to.  Good luck in your search. 

A few days ago I am testing a stage of professional power that I have had for many years, a Crown XLS202, in fact I rescued it from a local, it did not work and I fixed it.
It's a cheap 200W amp, it's not very good but when I put it on with the Cornwalls, everything opens up dynamically, the ends come out, everything becomes big and vibrant. Interestingly, the XP12 suits him well.
So I come to the conclusion that I need a more lively amp. The Cornwalls appreciate it.

Another vote for Atma-sphere. 

I would also think that the problem lies more with the speaker than the electronics. 

I owned a XA 30.8 for a short time and could never warm to the sound. Perhaps it was attempting to serve too many masters and was good but not excellent in any category.

I think your speakers will match tube more than solid state.

You do not mention your source or if you have changed to good power cords and interconnects yet or a power conditioner dedicated line but you are talking about throwing a lot of money on gear my guess is you should concentrate on the setup of what you have you will probably learn how good the gear you already have is.

Maybe get ahold of Nelson and see if he can help you out. 
All of us can recommend all the equipment we like. Its your ears you must please.

Klipsch is the problem.
the searing, molar pain inducing highs of your speakers is your issue.


Get a warmer speaker, problem solved.

You need new speakers.

 Are cornwalls great, sure,for those who like the Klipsch sound.

  Audition speakers BEFORE you discard the Pass amp & preamp. 
 You would be better with a soft dome tweeter. search , search, read, audition a lot of speakers.

  Your gear is amazing, and you belittling the preamp seems premature,  audition speakers if you can.

    

I have Pass Labs X250 the Olympia 3 love the setup.If you are sure you want to keep your speakers you might try Prema Luna tube amps great sound that outperforms most tub amps a 3x the price.

You might try also calling Pass Labs directly and asking them on a good day Nelson might just answer the phone d himself. Outstanding service even if you are the 3 owner of their equipment nobody stands behind their product like they do. Maybe PS Audio shout out to Paul

That’s easy- change speakers!

Echar la culpa a Klipsch antes que a Pass.

OP,

That $200 amp should be just about right for the 6k cornwalls.

Buy the Coda 07x preamp , for $6500 retail will meet or beat any 
preamp tube or SS at 2x+ the price ,that’s on my radar for the fall.
their #8 power amp together with preamp can be had for around $10k delivered 
which will give you fantastic musicality and a bargain at that !!

OP, you have not mentioned your budget, the size of your room or if you have added any acoustic treatment.


Perhaps start another thread explaining what amps you have and ask for speaker recommendations.

Regarding amps, Underwood Audio USA has the amazing Son of Ampzilla on special now. It is a fantastic amplifier that beats others a lot more expensive and can drive any speaker beautifully. I would partner this with a good valve/tube pre-amp.

I have owned the original version for nearly 40 years without problem until I agreed to use it for a friend's party and somebody spilled drink over it. 

@unsound 

Unsound provided perhaps the best bit of advice. Settle on your speakers first.

I've found that Pass, while nice, for me, lacks snap and sparkle and so therefore it lacks engagement. I did hear the INT 250 with the Wilson Yvette and thought it really good, but that was the exception for me. I've heard plenty other Pass equipment. Again, YMMV. Good luck in your journey.

It sounds like the Klipsch and Pass just don't get along.  

I've been battling with different amps for the past few years and have gone from Krell, to Musical Fidelity, to Hegel and have landed on Coda.  

Check out the Coda offerings.  The continuum TS, or the 8, can be configured with an 18 watt class A bias and is neutral/ slightly warm sounding.  The only difference between the two - one has meters and the other doesn't.  I have the TS and see no reason to upgrade unless I win a lottery. Below is a great review  

https://hometheaterreview.com/coda-technologies-continuum-no-8-stereo-amplifier/

If your budget allows the next step up (and it is a HUGE step up) check out the Coda 16.  I have not heard it, but if you are thinking of new speakers and amp, it may be a consideration.   

http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/coda-technologies-16.0-amplifier-by-terry-london

Good luck!

Don’t worry about price!

 3000$ speakers, 400$ amp

 550$ speakers, 7500$ amp.

 Don’t matter. Enjoy.

 My amps were 10K new, driving a 3K speaker pair. (Paid 400$ pair new)
Basement system is 4500$ amps w a 125$ pair used speakers. 

Computer system is 200$ Yammy  receiver w early 90’s BIC Ventura’s hooked to technics sl1200 mkII W ortofon Arkiv Concorde to record LPs’ to computer to record to CD.

 BUT,.......a nice 250W - 300W amp is a must.

under 250 W you will clip if you like volume, plus you will lose the ease and transition from soft passages to a sudden peak of ....ROCK, or orchestral, classical, whatever you listen to. 

My suggestion is to upgrade your speakers. 

How about a VanAlstine? It might pair well with Klipsch. I have had a Synergy 450 for a number of years, which I loved, and just upgraded to a pair of his DVA 850 monblocks. VanAlstine pices are most reasonable IMHO. 

You understand the merits of a Class A circuit and have a speaker that permits it.

If you are prepared to make a step in the direction of a valves (i.e. towards the arrival point vs. the journey to eventually get there) and want to simplify your system by moving to an integrated solution and with the punch and transient speed of SS, then I would strongly suggest the Octave V 70 Class A with the Super Black Box.  Pure heaven!

Ray

Soooo many responses!
I think you're on the right track. The Luxman 900 amps are amazing.

I think that you may find Luxman too warm and lacking that last bit in detail, from what you say about your Pass.  Vitus amps may be good for you, if they are available in your country.  They overcome some of the negatives you describe in the Pass Amps, and they do this without ever sounding too 'dry' and over-analytical in a way the De Agostini can sometimes do.   The SIA-025 integrated is Class A and sound excellent, but if this is over your budget the Reference range has an very good integrated and a pre/power option.  

I gravitate to this Board because it is active and I like the graphics/format. But there is so much utter crap to be had!!! You can not and should not listen to people's recommendations as they only recommend what they have. Does homer-ism translate? The pursuit of home audio music reproduction is a singular journey of trial and error. There are no short cuts to be had. I don't blame you for asking as the pursuit is frustrating and it is human nature to look for the quick solution. There are lots of great products but only you can decide what suits you. You obviously think it is your preamp and amp. Could be. But what if is your loudspeaker placement? What if it is your choice of interconnects? Maybe your choice of speaker cable? Maybe your power supply? Maybe your personal taste? My point is that there are way too many variables for answers on this Board and yet you will get tons of homer-istic bullcrap responses. They are well-intended but crap nonetheless. Your scenario and described shortcomings are just too broad. My advice-do not shop for components based on what you read here or any other audio board. Find a retailer who you can trust. Listen to other people's systems. Buy Jim Smith's book. Now all this said, there are those who think one should start with choice of loudspeaker and those who think one should start with the front end or preamp. None are wrong. Your choice of loudspeaker, the Cornwalls are somewhat on the spectrum meaning that they do not fall within the median range of design or characteristics, Have you ever heard them suit you in any other system? If you bought them "blind", I suspect they are part of your dissatisfaction. But that is a blind guess, like I said. 

Creo que puede encontrar Luxman demasiado cálido y falto de ese último detalle, por lo que dice sobre su Pase. Los amplificadores Vitus pueden ser buenos para usted, si están disponibles en su país. Superan algunos de los aspectos negativos que describe en los Pass Amps, y lo hacen sin sonar nunca demasiado "secos" y demasiado analíticos, como lo hace De Agostini a veces. El SIA-025 integrado es de Clase A y suena excelente, pero si está por encima de su presupuesto, la gama Reference tiene una muy buena opción integrada y pre / power.

excellent answer. I'll keep it in mind

That's why we have an game because very seldom does one amp fits all. I wanted a Krell amp really bad but when I called Krell they said they would love to sell me one of their amps but with my horn-loaded speakers, it would be the kiss of death.

Likely speaker-amp mismatch. If you intend to upgrade the Klipsch Cornwall to another speaker, then focus on the speaker first and not the amp. If you want to retain the Pass Labs, then find a speaker which you like that sounds great with the Pass.

I really appreciate every answer.

I get many responses "the problem is the Klipsch".
It seems that to some the Pass XA30.8 and XP-12 are perfect, and since they are, do I have to change my speakers to match my Pass well?
Let me clear things up:

The problem is not the Klipsch. I love this speaker. I know it is not the best definition. Is the speaker going to die? No. Is it the best? No. Does it sound better with tubes? It depends on everyone's taste.
I have tried various electronics with the Klipsch and the Pass has been the best in the mid-range but the most boring of all. Klipsch are not boring speakers, and nobody buys klipsch to sound boring. Do you understand now why the problem is not Klipsch?

I am not asking for help on how to configure my system or how to find synergies. Forget the Klipschs, please.

I only commented on my findings after a while with the XA30.8 and XP12 to share with others and if anyone had found the same findings and what electronics I had fixed it with.

So, there are several options:

1st- Choose a X250.8 and an ARC Ref5.
Can anyone comment on the differences between the X series and the XA? I don't know if it will solve things to continue with Pass. I have read that ARC ref preamps have a lot of resolution.

2º- Forget the Pass and change the electronics.
Luxman 900 series, Gryphon, Vitus, Spectral, etc ...

Almost all tube amps I've heard have never quite convinced me because I find them slow, not very sharp but very enjoyable. Perhaps that was the reason for opting for Pass Labs XA. I thought that would be the solution. It was a mistake.

This thread has been very illuminating / instructive. It ought to be required reading for all audio hobbyists.

Klipsch loudspeakers are a known quantity. They’ve been around for a long time and because of that, and because they have always represented a good value, it seems that many audiophiles have owned them at some point in their audio career—especially early on. That includes me.

So there’s a striking degree of recognition among the folks responding to your post when they read your description of how the Cornwalls sound with the Pass electronics:

The amp, you say sounds

"somewhat muddy and lacks a lot of air and grip. The soundstage is very closed."

And the preamp

"removes a lot of resolution and information, without transient attacks and sunken mid frequencies. Instead it brings warmth."

That’s how Klipsch loudspeakers sound! The Klipsch sound is vivid, bold, and dramatic but I don’t think many would consider it especially refined. The Pass gear is exceptionally neutral and tells this truth well.That’s why there’s been a consensus that you need to listen to different speakers.

There’s clearly a lot about the Cornwalls that you like and that’s fine. There’s a reason they’ve been around for 75 years. But you are recognizing their deficiencies and looking for a way to "fix" those shortcomings with electronics that will somehow compensate. This won’t end well.

After doing many tests, I find that the XA30.8 sounds very very sweet but actually too much. I find it to be a loosely defined amp, somewhat muddy and lacks a lot of air and grip. The soundstage is very closed.

@opm, a few years back I tried to build a second system and wanted to try Klipsch Heritage.  I started with Forte IIs and then upgraded to Cornwall IIIs.    My main system at the time was based around Revel F52s and a Modwright KWA 100SE amp.    I compared the CWIIIs to my Revels and tried various amps (the Modwright, a Bel Canto Class D (based on Klipsch Forum suggestions), and a Primaluna Integrated).    I liked the CWIIIs but in the end sold them as they were ultimately too big for my 2nd listening room.   

Compared to my Revels I found them to be lacking in high frequency resolution and could not get them to throw a wide or as deep image as the Revels.  The latter might have been partly related to the fact my room wasn't big enough to really let them breath.   I didn't find them bright at all which was a surprise based on perceptions of horns and reading many forums talking about Klipsch making your ears bleed, etc.   My biggest issue with them was they didn't have the high resolution detail I was used to hearing with the Revels.  I much preferred them with the Primaluna, the Bel Canto has amazing bass with them but I found the sound dry and sterile while the Modwright sounded musical with them but was a little thin and too noisy; the Primaluna was just right for my ears/tastes.

Since then I sold the Revels and purchased Magico and now Spendor.   My amps have been the Pass X250.8 and now the XA30.8.    Based on your quote above, my personal opinion is that it is not coming totally from the amp.   I'm not suggesting everyone should like the Pass amp sound or it is the best match for your speakers, only that the 'lack of air and grip, and the soundstage is very closed' is what I find the amp does very very well (i.e. throw a very deep front to back soundstage with 3d presence, and at least with my D9s control them with force).

Both my Magicos and Spendors offer more high frequency resolution than the much older F52s did, and both of them disappear in my listening room more than the F52s.  Since you didn't specify I'm assuming you have original CWs and not the III or now the IVs, is that correct?   I don't know how the high frequency resolution of the CW compares with the III or IV, but presumably there have been improvements made on that front..., and how much better will CWIVs image compared to the original CWs?  I certainly didn't purchase the CWs thinking they would image like the modern slim tower speakers.

Personally, I think the X250.8 (or M900u), and  dCS BArtok are way overkill for your CWs.
With my easy to drive D9s I found the X250.8 (compared to XA30.8) to offer slightly more detail with a little more speed.  I found it sacrificed a little bit of midrange magic and soundstage depth.   The XA30.8 driving the D9s into mid dBc range has yet to leave its class A bias for me and controls the D9 very well.   I also compared a Bryston 4B3 and Benchmark AHB2 with the X250.8 in my system and found them all to be very close with the 4B3 and AHB2 offering slightly more resolution and maybe speed (Bryston 4B3 had tighter bass with the D9s) but at the cost of the 3d soundstage the Pass is so good at.   Maybe that sound would be a little more to your liking and price wise would match better with the CWs.   I found the AHB2 is DEAD quiet and incredibly detailed while being musical (with tight bass) so you might try that one, but if you don't think the XA30.8 throws a deep soundstage you might still have issues with these amps in that regard.

If I had the room, I would love to have CWIIIs again (or now the CWIVs) but would match them with equipment more in line with their MSRP and ability to resolve detail; I would likely have tubes somewhere in the chain as well as I really enjoyed how they sounded with the very basic tube integrated I used.

PS: I sold my Pass XP10 for a different preamp (SimAudio 740P) and it made a big difference to my ears so I hear you on the preamp concern; that was with very revealing Magicos and their Beryllium tweeters though, not the CW horn tweeters. Personally I wouldn't have considered that pricy preamp a good value or match with my CWIIIs.

Cheers, and best of luck with your search.

looking for a way to "fix" those shortcomings with electronics that will somehow compensate.

Maybe I have not explained myself well or you do not understand it. At no time have I said that I want to solve the definition of the COrnwall III with electronics. That's impossible.

(i.e. throw a very deep front to back soundstage with 3d presence, and at least with my D9s control them with force)

Thanks for your extensive response.

I did not say that the Xa30.8 lacks depth. I have said that the soundstage is closed. That is, very little open.

I do not own a single Pass equipment. But this is the complete opposite of the many experiences that people post here or elsewhere about Pass equipment.And it also doe not help that this is a new poster and this is their first post. Good luck!

Hello Opm,

you have a couple of great choices in tube. Cary Audio 805 or 211 Monoblock tube amplifiers or McIntosh MC275 or if this fits in your budget, MC2301. For solid state, any Krell or Ayre amplifier. All of these companies do very well overseas. For preamps, Audio Research Ref5 SE and Cary Audio SLP05 with the Ultimate Upgrade.  I hope this will help you quite a bit.

I've never heard Cary Audio. On the other hand, I have listened to the MC275 with my Cornwalls and I did not like it at all. In fact, listen to the MC275 alongside the XA30.8.

Also reading all of this babbling that’s going only. A lot of it is actually good advice but at the end of the day, it’s your ears, your room, your setup with wall panels or not, in another words, your decision. You asked what the differences would be for the two Pass Labs amplifiers. One is fully Class A and the other is Class A that switches to Class AB. Right off the bat, that’s a different sound. You’re speakers are ported so power is definitely not the issue. If they were sealed, then I can see the need for the Pass Labs X250.8. 
SPECIFICATIONS

1 Sensitivity in average listening room
34Hz - 20kHz
102dB @ 2.83V / 1m
100W/400W
119dB Continuous
8 ohms Compatible
HF: 5000Hz MF: 700Hz
K-107-TI 1” (2.54cm) Titanium diaphragm compression driver
K-702 1.75” (4.45cm) Polyimide diaphragm compression driver
K-33-E 15” (38.1cm) Fiber-composite cone woofer
MDF with fine veneers
Understanding the potential of your equipment and it’s limits makes a huge difference to help you get to the sound you are looking for. Hope this helps and best to luck with your decision.