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Disappointment with Pass Labs - I'm looking for something else
Hello, I am new to this forum and my mother tongue is not English, so please forgive me if I make mistakes as I use a translator.
I recently bought an XA30.8 and an XP12. I was very happy but as time went by I began to not feel comfortable with the sound.
After doing many tests, I find that the XA30.8 sounds very very sweet but actually too much. I find it to be a loosely defined amp, somewhat muddy and lacks a lot of air and grip. The soundstage is very closed.
The XP-12 is the worst of the two. It is a previous that removes a lot of resolution and information, without transient attacks and sunken mid frequencies. Instead it brings warmth.
Has anyone of you found the same?
If you ask me, I have a Klipsch Cornwall and a dCS BArtok.
Now I want a capable amp, forceful, something warm, decisive, airy and with a great soundstage.
At first I thought of changing my XA30.8 for X250.8, and changing the XP-12 for a second-hand Audio Research Ref5. I am afraid of this change and continue with Pass, since I can go back to the same thing a bit.
On the other hand I have thought of going for a Luxman 900 combo, since it has very good reviews and from what I have read it could be the winning ticket.
I recently bought an XA30.8 and an XP12. I was very happy but as time went by I began to not feel comfortable with the sound.
After doing many tests, I find that the XA30.8 sounds very very sweet but actually too much. I find it to be a loosely defined amp, somewhat muddy and lacks a lot of air and grip. The soundstage is very closed.
The XP-12 is the worst of the two. It is a previous that removes a lot of resolution and information, without transient attacks and sunken mid frequencies. Instead it brings warmth.
Has anyone of you found the same?
If you ask me, I have a Klipsch Cornwall and a dCS BArtok.
Now I want a capable amp, forceful, something warm, decisive, airy and with a great soundstage.
At first I thought of changing my XA30.8 for X250.8, and changing the XP-12 for a second-hand Audio Research Ref5. I am afraid of this change and continue with Pass, since I can go back to the same thing a bit.
On the other hand I have thought of going for a Luxman 900 combo, since it has very good reviews and from what I have read it could be the winning ticket.
149 responses Add your response
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Keep the amp, ditch the Pass preamp! Pass preamps are anemic and lifeless. I had the XA60.8's with both the XP20 and XP30 and was underwhelmed. Went to Aric at Aric Audio and we came up with the original Motherlode preamp. That was close to four years ago and all of my gear has rotated in and out, but The Motherlode remains...it will serve as a great compliment to the Pass amp. |
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@opm +1 what @laaudionut said. Try a completely different preamplifier with your XA30.8. Also, I learned from Nelson directly he has a number of customers running really good tube preamplifiers with his amps too. Change the input/driver tubes and you can taylor the sound a bit towards your taste. Those Cornwalls should light up pretty good. |
@opm, how open are you to demoing other preamplifiers before you mess with changing to other amps or speakers? I ask because there are countless references to folks changing out the XP12 for the X22/XP32 -and/or- good tube preamps with really positive results. Each preamp in the Pass lineup having different characteristics. Paring a warm veiled over preamp with a warmish amp will do exactly what you describe. Not all pre/amps are good pairings, recheck this. Call Kent English at Pass if you stay with Pass on your next preamp. Ask him about other pairing options with your current XA30.8 amplifier. Checking with a reference this morning, noted this if you stay with Pass: "With the 22 over the 12 you get just more of everything great. Blacker background, more details, tighter and more detailed bass, and a little larger soundstage". Or, tube preamp: Surf around and you will find countless references on various forums of folks pairing really good tube preamplifiers with X and XA amplifiers and super happy with the results. Good Luck, its definitely worth a try. |
@jetter All dependent on your speakers.. The SIT3 is very special.. it’s very SET like.. upfront presentation, black quiet background where music emerges effortlessly.. unlike anything I ever owned.. my first choice if you have the right speakers. The XA25 is a close 2nd, more power to drive most speakers, more heft/weight to demanding peaks than the SIT3, but not as “live” sounding when compared to the SIT3 . Very transparent and non fatiguing. I listened for hours on end, makes you want to open it up and look inside for hidden tubes. Leaning to the right of neutral. I had a hard time letting it go. I kept them both, but not very practical as I Have another pass amp in the other room. I only heard the 30.8 at a friends house in his system. That’s what inspired me to get the XA25 as the 30.8 is massive! It has a similar pass house sound. Leaning to the warm side of neutral. But has lots of dynamics. You can tell the power supply and amp is underrated as it’s like always wanting to present itself in a dynamic way, very transparent. My friend is using it with very sensitive Horn hybrid type speakers, I don’t think it’s a good match personally at 102 DB sensitivity, I would be using a 2A3 monos. I’m surprised it’s quiet enough to be used with such a sensitive speaker, but it is dead quiet background. Really speaks to pass designs. I was quite happy with just the XA25, but I had the opportunity to get a new SIT3 amp, one of the last ones to be sold out of the 250 that were made... im enjoying these lower powered amps. They’re easier to move and purchase and they make you realize just how powerful a few watts can be. |
@mikem Your taking the time to write about your first hand experience with these three amps is very much appreciated. From what you describe, and my own reading, I think I am most interested in purchasing the XA25. I really should sell a couple of lesser amps that I have here first. By the way, was heat generated by the XA25 a problem at all? Living here in Vermont it would be a plus for me in the winter. Thanks George |
@decooney I recently did the XP12 to 22 switch. It is more of everything as many have stated. To the point where I can hear the differences from another room in the house. My wife even can hear the difference and her only interest in this is how much I spend.. I did this on an in home trial, when I sent back the xp12, He told me none the XP22’s has ever been returned. apparently the 22 uses a different topology, it’s not just a separate chassis for the PS. |
@jetter my pleasure.. I’m addicted to the music !! Glad to share.. I had the XA25 on an amp stand between the speakers, so it gets lots of breathing room. the heat sinks get quite warm, but it doesn’t heat up the room.. I live in NC and it was easy to live with in the summer. It really is a wonderful amp, using only 2 output devices per side vs 20 per side in the 30.8 Its not just an entry model, it’s based on a different output device that is simpler and require less supporting circuitry.. it’s a gem ! Good luck ! |
@jetter It’s easier to justify your purchase when you liquidate something to offset the cost.. I already have 2 preamps, CD player, countless tubes and cables sitting unused that need to be gone.. yet I feel compelled to keep it all.. it’s a sickness. I had the XP12 for a couple months and the dealer took it back for full amount towards the 22. Was too easy.. and tricky thinking I ONLY had to pay the difference.. lol.. I’m an audiophool ! But wise enough to know, to enjoy it while you can.. |
I had the XP-10 and now the XP-12. These preamps are superb and sound way above their price. I had the XA 30.5 for a few years and replaced it with a Bryston 3B cubed which paired beautifully as a class A/B amp with the Pass preamp. If anything, your problem is with your amp/speakers, definitely not the preamp. |
@triodlover1499 Nelson Pass and his company are simply among the best in the industry. It's just crazy how much time they take out of their lives to support the diy community. Who else out there is "supplementing" their commercial enterprise with free designs released merely because they want others to have good sound? Maybe just Duke at Audiokenesis... |
Your Pass Labs gear is good stuff; it is highly musical, and that soundstage and imaging! You have the right line stage and amp for a style of speaker called a "book shelf" speaker - something simple with a single tweeter and say a 6-1/2 inch woofer of sorts - say like a Diablo Utopia or Soprano N1 by JM Lab/Focal. A B&W D3 would also be a great choice. I'm partial to JM Labs but that B&W speaker is also something special. Small-ish powered amps and a large-sh floor stander, ehhh, that arrangement, by my estimation, does not seem like a combo with synergy. Oh yeah, the Von Schweikert Unifield 2 Mk III I've listened also brings it too. Happy hunting! |
Dear @opm : I agree with all those owners/gentlemans that touted Pass electronics because N.Pass designer is second to none. I knew N.Pass rigth when he owned/designer too Threshold and his amps were and even today are still very good vintage performers- Here you have several advices mainly to go with the Pass 25 and the 22. Real problem belongs not to those great Pass electronics or the great Bartok unit but to the self speaker limitations been horn design and with a woofer developing heavy/high InterModulationDistortion levels that made that increment the speaker TotalHarmonicDistortions. Your ekectronics including the dcs unit are in other league where those speakers are truly short. So, i agree with the gentleman that said change those speakers, he is rigth. Pass is no trouble.. The ones that siad here that the problem can be " fixed " with tubes and changing the stock unit tubes to " tailored " your needs are only telling you to add distortions to " colored " the sound reproduction instead to fix the real problem that has a name: speakers. Horns almost never can honor MUSIC. These kind of tube units advises could be too because your speakers has a sensitivbity over 100db and then according them you need 10watts or lower and a SS over say " 100 watts " will not works and this is a total misunderstanding because we can run high sensitivity speakers with 300 watts or even higher SS designs. The " problem " with good SS eltectronics designs as Pass is that any kind of system audio items that's not up to the task can't be stays " hidden " behind the colored/high distortions developed by lesser design electronics. In this case your speakers. If you take a look to the audio market the higher number of audio items belongs to speakers one. Do it a favor and change it, put on sale ( always exist horn lovers. ) and you will get what you are looking for with the same electronics you own today. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
I have the Klipsch Forte III. I also have the Pass 30.8 and a DCS Rossini DAC. I really do like the 30.8 amp, it's great with other speakers but I don't like it with the Klipsch. Personally I far and away prefer the Decware Zen Triode 2.5 watt tube amp. Better everything with the Forte III. I'm thinking of jumping up to the even more efficient Cornwall IV like you have. I love the 30.8 on the Maggie LRS, it's like a different amp but something leaves me cold with the Klipsch. Did you ever try your Bartok direct to the amp? The Decware amp has two inputs and an attenuator so it's sort of an integrated amp if you need more than one input. The sound is beautiful, great bass and so fatigue free and extended at the same time. Fatigue is one word I would use to describe the 30.8 with the Klipsch speakers. For 1000 USD new the Decware Zen triode is an amazing hifi bargain that amp competes with anything I've ever heard before. |
I recently tried a Xp12 and also found it tame, polite, un-dynamic. I paired it with my Pass XA25 and Cornwalls. I just got a LTA MZ3 and boy what a difference! Much more dynamic, engaging, possibly more resolving, better bass. My opinion would be to try new preamp first, I’ve never heard anyone describe the 30.8 like you did. I didn’t think the Cornwalls could be tame and in-dynamic, but that what the xp12 did, I was shocked. Of course my system, my room, my ears. |
I am a long time Pass fan. I bought a Threshold 250 watt amp in ~ 1980 A T2 preamp shortly thereafter, then a Pass x350 for 15 years. He does outstanding amp design and good preamps (not to my taste now). But from what you are saying about your tastes the Audio research preamp sounds like a great match. Your tastes sound like mine. I owned a Audio Research REF 5SE for years, I now have a REF 6SE. The REF / Pass 350s is a good combination and would be better than the amp you have now.The speakers unfortunately are probably the real problem. The amp could be great depending on speakers. Not sure what your price range is, but you need some accurate high end speakers, B&W, Wilson, Sonus Faber, the choices are endless, I would stay mainstream then there are lots of reviews. Over the last 50 years I migrated from a mixture of components to All Audio Research Components and Sonus Faber Amati Traditional speakers, and an Aurender WE20se streamer. |
After reading my rambling post. I think my recommendation would be to get a set of high-end speakers... then assess your system sound. Put some serious effort into finding speakers to fit your musical taste. What music do you like? If it is punch dominated then B&W is a good choice. If you really like imaging maybe Wilson. If highly varied, with classical and acoustic then Sonos Faber...I recommend whole heartedly Olympica or higher. |
So many recommendations @opm, que genero de música escuchas normalmente, yo por ejemplo jazz, blues, rock, Clásico y eso, lo más difícil en mi opinión es reproducir el rock, Por la dinámica y porque las grabaciones originales son normalmente no son las mejores. Con que alimentas la Bartok? Con CDs? O música en ficheros? Yo tengo Klipsch P37F y otros con cornetas AudioKinesis Azels, y he tenido bastantes equipos de tubos y de estado sólido, quizás te puedo ayudar a que depures las respuestas. |
While it is true that tubes sound good with Klipsch, so does many solid state amps as well. Midfi, the slightly.warm sound of B&K does the trick, Higher end SS Conrad Johnson solid state sounds delicious. Mcormack amps nice! Don't use the High Definition Audio Research SS amps, a waste of time and money, too bright! I like the high sensitivity of Klipsch because it don't take a lot of power to get em going plus they are revealing of all the fine details and its like being in a front row seat at a concert. |
Cornwall III's can sound dull, muted and warm with many amps/preamps. The new IV is much more alive, lively and sharp. I love my pass gear with Heresy IV and LaScala. Gorgeous, huge soundstage and sweetness that tames the highs of these speakers. The VIII's from Klipsch were much more dull sounding than what they make today. I have a set of XA60.8's and an XP-10 running Klipsch version IV's as well as Fleetwood Deville's. The sound is the best I have had in 35 years of HiFi. I know a pre-amp upgrade will improve it further as the XP-10 does lean slightly warm, Even so the sound is wide open and huge. The #1 ingredient to a great system is the room, then the speakers, then the pre-amp/amp, then the source/dac. Then cables. The kicker is....synergy. Add in something that doesn't have synergy when all connected together and it can sound awful. I wouldn't trade my Pass Labs for any other gear as I have not head anything better in my space, with my gear. But for others it may sound dull, lacking or even bright. All depends on the synergy. If you want a nice wide open soundstage, the Heresy IV will do much better with your pass gear than the CWIII. They can do big, sweet soundstage. They are not bright nor warm. They image like mad and sound stunning with Pass Labs. The 30.8 would sound gorgeous with them if they were set up right. Also, you have a world class DAC but it also leans warm. You have a warm amp, warm DAC and warm speakers. Yes, CWIII lean warm and muted. I believe if you changed your speakers you would be much happier. The Fleetwood Deville's are a huge step up even from my LaScala in every area. Even something like a set of KEF LS50 could bring you what you look for. Dynaudio bookshelf. B&W also can be fantastic. The gear you have far outclasses your speakers here. Even moving to Cornwall IV would shock you as they are much better than the III. Bottom line is that you have world class electronics. The synergy with the speakers is off. |
Audioholics recently measured an X350.5 Pass labs amp. It did not do well! https://youtu.be/uDbfwCo0a3I |
@hifi59 That´s the first time I've ever seen a Pass amplifier measure at less than specified power. On multiple other occasions reviewers have explicitly noted that the amps are very conservatively rated. See, e.g., this stereophile review of the XA30.5: "Fig.4 shows how the THD+noise percentage in the amplifier's output varies with output power into 8, 4, and 2 ohms. While the XA30.5 may give 30Wpc into 8 ohms in class-A (14.8dBW), the distortion at this power level is low, at 0.015%. The amplifier doesn't actually clip (defined as the THD reaching 1%) until a much higher power level: 130Wpc into 8 ohms (21.14dBW). Even higher powers were available into lower impedances before clipping: 195Wpc into 4 ohms with both channels driven (19.9dBW), and 332W into 2 ohms with one channel driven (19.2dBW)." And another for the XA25: "The INT-25's output power is specified as 25W into 8 ohms and 50W into 4 ohms, both equivalent to 14dBW, with a "class-A envelope" of 50W peak into 2, 4, or 8 ohm loads. With "clipping" defined as when the THD+noise reaches 1%, I found that the Pass Labs amplifier with both channels driven at 1kHz clipped at 60W into 8 ohms (17.8dBW, fig.4) and 98W into 4 ohms (16.9dBW, fig.5)." I think the X350.5 was actually broken. As he notes, obviously the DC offset needs to be re-biased, and given that power behavior, I think it's in need of more substantial service. |
I can understand the Pass amp distortion being higher since lowest distortion doesn’t always correlate to sounding better. It’s the fact that it couldn’t deliver close to its rated 4 ohm output. I see no excuse for that unless the amp had some unforeseen issues. Audioholics has excellent measuring equipment and I trust Gene, along with his measurements, especially when he goes to listen and it reflects what he measured. |
I am sorry you feel that way about Pass Labs. For sure, it is not for everyone. It is really designed for people who love the sounds of tubes but with balls and no fuss about the life of tubes. The highs are extended heavenly. I have an XA30.8, XP-22 and a pair of Martin Logan Theos. The synergy is in there in spades and I just cannot stop listening to music. |
I first wanted to thank oldhvymec4 for his comments on this post. I found those to be thoughtful and informative. I am the current owner of an XA 30.8. They are pushing a pair of Audio Note K's and a REL T-7. Although I am exploring tube options I'm certainly not displeased with this combination. As mentioned previously, 30 watts is 30 watts which is why I'm seeking greater definition in the mids at lower volume levels. But when the right recording intersects with proper volumes on the preamp, DAC, and sub it is glorious. |
Pass Labs XP-22 is a fantastic preamp. It is not cheap at $9,500 list price. But it opens up the music like you never knew before. It has been voiced with the aid of the XA 30.8 version of amps. So they are a match made in heaven. Just add your favourite sparkers (preferably revealing) and you will be happy for a long, long time. |
If you are after the Pass Labs sound and you are not happy with the XA30.8 then I’d thoroughly recommend the XA25 as a cheaper alternative. I sold my XA30.8 and bought an XA25 for a similar reason to the OP. I felt that as nice as the XA30.8 was, it was too warm and it didn’t have tight enough bass. The XA25 has that Class A relaxed sound but it coupled with a lower noise floor and high levels of speaker control (lower output impedance). It also has fairly similar power output to the XA30.8 (Stereophile measured 90 watts into 8 ohms). Pure Class-A extends to about 25 watts which is similar figure to the XA30.8 from memory.
Please; as much as I like XA25, XA 30.8 is in a different league. You get 50% more of the filter capacitance 120,000 microfarads per side vs. 80K on the XA 25. 30.8 walks all over XA25 in bass dept. Perhaps, it is a bit sweeter in the midrange, but overall it shines over the XA25. Do not get me wrong, XA25 is an awesome amp especially for someone putting their toes in Pass ocean for the first time. |
I don't think anything it wrong with your amp - I think you're just not digging it. I think Steve Huff nailed it when he said synergy. I have Pass gear. Ive gone through 2 INT-60's - I HATED the first one and sold it, and Im a fan of class A ... I later purchased different speakers and re-purchased another 60 - and fell absolutely in love with it. It was a completely different experience and synergy. Ive had the INT-25 as well as the xa25 - I really enjoyed both - the XA25 sounded better at louder volumes (pending on pre of course - there it is again synergy) and the INT-25 sounds simply sublime at low to mid level listening - I found it aggressive when turned past 40. I've also owned a 30.8 and loved it - loud or soft. Im sure you've squared all this away by now but felt like chiming in. Best of listening. |
