Is there any reason to support the idea that cables, interconnects or any other kind of wiring can be considered directional? It seems that the theory is that carrying current will alter the molecular structure of the wire. I can't find anything that supports this other than in the case of extreme temperature variation. Cryo seems to be a common treatment for wire nowadays. Extreme heat would do something as well, just nothing favorable. No idea if cryo treatment works but who knows. Back to the question, can using the wires in one direction or another actually affect it's performance? Thanks for any thoughts. I do abide by the arrows when I have them. I "mostly" follow directions but I have pondered over this one every time I hook up a pair.
Anyone needing a rationale for experimenting with new fuses, cables or various, "tweaks" in their system and/or feeling dissuaded by the Church of Denyin'tology's antiquated electrical doctrines: take heart!
Many new electrical facts have been established in the past 100 years, lending support for the audible differences between them.
I couldn't find anything like, "Updated Electrical Theory For Idiots", but- did manage to find something resembling a cartoon, that even a child could follow. It neither mentions AC/sinusoidal waves in wires, nor does it go into the photon propagation of electromagnetic waves. It does, however, emphasize/demonstrate how Electrical Theory has progressed, since the 1800s:
These next two presuppose a certain amount of knowledge, in the field of modern Electrical Theory. Click, "more" in the first link's third answer, to get its entirety. Note how it mentions the OLD, "... commonly held misconception that the flow of electricity through a wire resembles a tube filled with ping pong balls...", to which the Denyin'tologists fervently adhere:
It's an established (measured) fact that an electromagnetic wave's propagation and speed, are dependent on the materials, of which the transmission line (cable) are made (ie: Dielectric Constant/permittivity). The better (lower) the Dielectric Constant the better the flow and the longer it takes for that material to become polarized. One reason anything that comprises an RLC circuit (ie: capacitors, cables, PC boards), takes time to, "form", or, "break/burn-in".*
Even the most inane (regarding the Sciences) must admit; braiding and twisting wires eliminates/reduces EMI interference.
That must lend credence to various cable geometries.
That better dielectrics enhance the propagation of electromagnetic waves (ie: your music signal), lends the same credence to choosing cables with better materials (ie: Polypropylene, Teflon, air, etc).
Of course: anything the Church of Denyin'tology's popes can't fathom, they'll summarily dismiss.
As simple a device as a fuse is: it still carries a sinusoidal signal/voltage, ALWAYS from source to load.
NOT back and forth!
Also (as mentioned above): any fuse acts as an RLC circuit, the 'C' of which will be determined by properties of its wave guide's/conductor's surroundings (ie: glass, air, bee's wax, ceramic, end cap materials, etc).
Any commonly drawn wire will exhibit a chevron pattern in its crystal lattice, so: why not "directionality" and why Ohno Continuous Cast, single crystal wire sounds better, to so many?
Stated above are scientifically tested, measured and proven facts.
There is no "contest", or "dispute" involved.
Anyone that feels compelled to harp on not hearing any differences, is obviously too obtuse to understand the term "variables" (as frequently mentioned) and worthy of disregard.
My only goal in these threads has ever been to encourage those with a mind to experiment with their systems, based on the latest (20th/21st Century's) findings of ACTUAL Physics/science and ignore the Cargo Cult's incessant runway building (objections, convolutions, deflections and obfuscations).
An electric current IS the flow of electrons (through a wire e.g.) from the -ve source, through the destination and then back to the +ve terminal of the source.
Seems confusing. I bought some higher quality cat6 cable to my system and read that they should be oriented from the source to the sound, or words to that effect. So, from the wall is “source”… to a switch. The next short run is to a Roon and a second run to a DAC. Think of a letter Y. I was not sure with my short, fancy and fairly pricy cables which way to put them in to the Roon and the DAC; after all, that Roon signal is bidirectional. I ended up placing the DAC connection as going from the switch to the DAC. But I’m still not sure what to do with the Roon. If all Systems worked in series it’s be easy. But if the signal is bidirectional - who knows?
I respect the directionality of my cables whether it does anything or not. Just makes me feel better. I did buy some amazing Kimber 8PR (Their "bottom" line, improved from previous model, sound astonishingly good and a serious bargain) speaker cable last year and they're NOT directional it seems. Allegedly they develop directionality later...to keep 'em honest, spades on the speaker end and bananas to the amp using their "special" solder sent with the connectors.
Interesting reading. Thanks for all the participation. It is clear that at least some cables should be used the way they were intended, simply by how they were made. As I said, I have always followed the arrows but always thought that it meant they should point away from the source. I may have misunderstood that but it always seemed logical to me. What about ones that do not have directionality in mind? Will they "learn" to be better in one direction than the other? This would mean that they physically changed over time. This is the part that I struggle with the most. Thanks,
In an audio system the electrons are not flowing from the source to the destination component. The signals are AC - though a bit asymmetric -so about half the time they are flowing one way and about half the time the other way.
Although, I guess there could be some DC coupled SS pre or DAC (no capacitor on the output) where the signal is a modulated DC voltage. Has anyone ever measured a DC offset on a source component's output?
For shielded cables where, except for balanced connections, the shield is connected to SIGNAL ground (the outside of an RCA plug) so it is probably true that the source end should be grounded.
@jeffbij Would OCC cable not render the directional question moot, as most cable lengths we use would, in theory anyway, be one single elongated grain?
Not to start a war here, but it is physics not sentienticy, and grain configuration/stresses in the metal do affect electron flow
@jeffbij Not to continue the war, but while the existence of crystalline grains affecting electron flow may have a base in physics, it still does not support the idea of cables being directional. A musical signal alternates - potentially imperfectly at times, and an AC current (power) alternates rather perfectly, even if potentially distorted from a pure sine wave. Also, note that what is typically called ’electrical current’ is not the motion of electrons, but the variation in electromagnetic field, which is not the same thing at all (see e.g. Veritasium’s video on electricity).
I’ll accept that asymmetrically terminated cables (e.g. with shielding connected at one end only) may transmit signal differently if plugged in A --> B vs. B --> A, however I would also point out that it’s not ’the material in the cable’ being directional as such, but the effectiveness of the shielding in two different points of the EM field.
This said, if people believe that they hear differences, I’m not getting in their way.
BS TO directionality! I RECAL AUDIOHOLICS SAID IT WAS bs
AND THEY TESTED THE AQ cables w/ the battery and they made MORE noise w/a battery installed than not ! AQ cables are proven to be snake oil rip off it's like Bernie Madoff figured out how to scam and not get in legal trouble ! LOL
but you will hear the cult members insist they work reminds me of Scientologists!
cryo ? may work many famous indy car engine builders use it has LONG history of believers i heard of it w/ race engines 50 years ago!
I understand GR research offers it ( cryo ) free if you get cables fr them and theirs are awesome and actually a bargain! & NOT SNAKE OIL! ck them out ! I think I read iF YOU GET THEIR diy CABLE KIT AND MAKE SOME DIY YOU CAN SEND YOURS AND THEY WILL INCLUDE THEM IN A CRYO TREATMENT FREE?
The brands of interconnects with directionality, as specified by the manufacturer, that I have, have all stated that the reason for the directionality is that the shield is grounded at the source end and is floating at the destination end.
This reason makes sense to me, from an interference shielding reasoning.
None of these brands have claimed that the reason for the directionality is that it is about a specific grain structure.
The nitrogen atmosphere in the drawing process is to prevent the surface of the copper from oxidizing. If the surface is oxidized, it will have a higher hardness level and create smaller grain sizes when drawn. Smaller the grain size, the bigger the impact on the electron flow.
There are a lot of good videos on Youtube about "wire drawing" if interested.
I've been told the same thing by a different cable company. When reading the writing, the flow is left to right.
As for the "learning" the direction, I've heard that as well. While electron flow over time will affect the grain structure and stresses, It would take a LOT of continous current (high amperage) and building up of heat to completely alter the structure (i.e. annealing the metal). Minor changes (key word being minor), that is dependant on the material, impurities, and initial grain size, but does happen. Thus the infamous cable "break-in" period.
If dealing with -0 Crystal Copper or 6-9s pure it’s drawn in a specific type procedure in a nitrogen atmosphere , I don’t know the exact procedure ,there are only a handfully of foundries that do this.and drawn in that specific direction , and slightly better they say the cable needs to be first run in , then maybe compare it would not be a huge difference maybe low level detail. I will inquire though for my own curiosity , my WireWorld Eclipse cables have the arrow going from the amplifier to the Loudspeakers ,and many others do this also.
. . . and I just did a quick search on speaker wire directionality , specifically Kimber 8TC, and came up with this discussion right here on A'gon . . .
I use Kimber Silver Streak(s) all the way through (CDP-pre-amp) and this thread got me curious, and from the searches that I did they were saying that the heat shrinked "Silver Streak" logo around the cable should read so that the 'S' is at the end that the source is on. I just went and checked and that's the way I have mine; I don't remember if those cables came with directions with them and that's why I had them all pointed that way, or if it was just by coincidence.
And actually I do remember, many many moons ago, hearing or reading that cables are directional, but that over time it would "learn" the other direction. "I don't think "learn" is the term that was used, but it's the best I can think of at the moment.
@soix - if a cable is shielded, then it should only be grounded on one end, usually on the source side. If you ground both sides, then you are creating another full circuit and turning it into an antenna.
@billpete - I worked for company for 32 years that made speciality metal alloy wire, tubing and machined parts for the medical device market. I was the 5th employee of what is the world leader in the market. And I have drawn my share of both. (FYI, the process of making metal tubing and wire from larger diameters, is to "draw" it, not to extrude it. Extrusion is usually only done from the cast initial billet of metal by pushing it through a die. In drawing the metal is pulled through the die.)
In a nutshell, the reason for the directionally of electrical flow is due to what is called the grain structure of the metal. (Think of it like the cells in a leaf.) As the material is drawn smaller and smaller, the grains become elongated (smaller and thinner) and pointed in the direction of the drawing force. The surface of the material is also undergoing changes in stresses. And since electrons move along the surface of the metal, when they hit the grain boundries and jump to the next grain, it affects the electrical flow. Thus, the electrons will flow smoother in one direction better than the other.
@roadcykler - Not to start a war here, but it is physics not sentienticy, and grain configuration/stresses in the metal do affect electron flow. And that can be tested and measured. A classic measurement is to take a straight wire and measure the resistance. Now take that same wire and bend into a tight curve. The resistance will go up because you are stressing the metal where the electrons flow across.
As soon as electrons become sentient and can discern differences in metal, then directional cables may be a thing. Until then, even a basic understanding of electricity would tell you it's 100% marketing and makes 0% difference in the sound you hear.
I guess I’m in the "It’s mostly BS" camp and I’ll leave it at that…I like to be proven wrong as it means that I got to learn something. I still question burn in with cables as this suggests that they will change with use. I’m pretty skeptical on that but there are folks who claim to hear them change so, who knows.
As far as my understanding, some interconnects are grounded or shielded on one end so are designed to be used in one direction but could be wrong with that. But one day I inadvertently installed my digital cable backwards and my system sounded totally broken and I was panicked. I fairly quickly realized my mistake and when I reversed that interconnect everything was great again. I don’t know whether it was the cable’s construction or whether it had been burned in that way, but the difference was severe and unmistakable. For whatever reason, ignore directionality at your peril.
Interesting that he is not a big advocate but says he has heard the difference. I do understand if they are made in such a way that it's intended to be used one way or the other, that it may be more important. It is also interesting to note that he says wire should be used to coincide with the way it was extruded. Most of us will never know how it was made. His suggestion to listen and see if you can hear a difference, makes some sense. If there is anything to it in those cases (IC's without arrows), maybe we just solved how the wire was extruded. I'd be surprised if I can hear that difference but I'll sure try it. Unlike most people, I like to be proven wrong as it means that I got to learn something. I still question burn in with cables as this suggests that they will change with use. I'm pretty skeptical on that but there are folks who claim to hear them change so, who knows.Thanks for all the comments.
Some cables are directional and it isn't BS. If they are made from solid core material and cold extruded through progressive dies, the cold forming alters the grain structure in the material and stretches them. The grain lines up better in the direction of the extrusion and therefore the flow of current.
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