Denarips and Vinshine split

Your original title may be quite apt Denaf"rips". 

I don't think anyone would deny, Alvin and Vinshine have played a significant role in making Denafrips what they are today. With Denafrips recent mishandling of the 15th versions of DACs, the launch of 12th-1 so soon after the 12th; they are not exactly endearing themselves to their customer base. Quite precarious for them what with an expanding choice of R2R DACs these days. Time will tell

I just got the email from Vinshine and it is a cause for concern.  I don't totally understand the issue with the grey market.  I bought my T2 from The Music Room which is a reputable online market for used equipment. I wonder if they consider that grey market. Vinshine did support me when the firmware update was issued a year or so ago. 

Just go to AliExpress, search for Denafrips and you'll know instantly what "grey market" means and how it would destroy a reputable dealer.  

@sbayne, Thanks I don't frequent AliExpress but that helps to understand the problem for sure. Are these copies of their products or secondary sales?

So I went and searched and yes, there are few items, but nothing really to destroy a dealer. No high value items at all and prices and not that much lower.

B&H Photo used to sell both white and grey items. You see, there is no really white and grey Denafrips since local US support is very limited. It is not like you buy Canon lens US model with quick local repair. Gray or white most probably you will have to ship unit to Singapore.

Grey market is good. The only way to fight greedy monopolists like US importer of Accuphase.

@upshift - they look like slightly discounted lower end units. I wonder if they are just refurbished units. For example, I upgraded Venus to Terminator. Denafrips is going to sell my former unit somewhere right?

The point is Denafrips sells outside of the dealer network (grey market). For example, Vinshine Audio is currently trying to sell a USED Venus 12th for $3,649. New Venus 12ths are listed on AliExpress for as low as $2,543, Pontus 15th $1,653, Terminator 15th $4,509, Apollo $2,571, etc. I'm no Denafrips expert but I think those are some of their higher-end pieces and the prices seem way below what they cost from an authorized dealer. 

sbayne

485 posts

07-16-2024 at 12:09pm 

Just go to AliExpress, search for Denafrips and you'll know instantly what "grey market" means and how it would destroy a reputable dealer.  

INDEED AliExpress has just destroyed solar panel install companies. I ended up spending just less than 10% of what had been quoted to $60,000 project that turned out to be just slightly North of $5k and with better parts/components.

It doesn't matter how reputable dealers are after all once you hit a nice deal for the same or even better quality.

Just remember dealer is just a third party leech that is able to brainwash customer. 

Those aren't Denafrips models made to Vinshine's specs being sold on AliExpress. Long ago, Denafrips decided to sell similar but different quality stuff to Musician Audio (the insides still had Denafrips stamped on some of their first run components) and Musician publicly bad mouthed Denafrips while doing it, saying they had R&D going back years when they were just a start up company exploiting Denafrips greed and the market that Vinshine helped create.

Denafrips also sells lessor quality spec'd units that look the same on AliEpxress. This is old news. Something tells me that Alvin (at Vinshine) had the screws put to him again so he's bowing out while not rocking the boat. I'm sure there's going to be another shoe or two dropping in the near future about what transpired.

All the best,
Nonoise

@sbayne

Minor correction: The $3549 price for a used Venus II 12th on Vinshine Audio is listed in Singapore dollars (SGD) - not U.S. dollars (USD). This is the default - you have to specify the monetary conversion at the top. In USD, this item is approximately $2644. (I only know this because I’ve been actively DAC shopping).

INDEED AliExpress has just destroyed solar panel install companies. I ended up spending just less than 10% of what had been quoted to $60,000 project that turned out to be just slightly North of $5k and with better parts/components.

It doesn’t matter how reputable dealers are after all once you hit a nice deal for the same or even better quality.

Just remember dealer is just a third party leech that is able to brainwash customer.

If you are a very large enterprise (Sony, Yamaha, etc) with too broad a portfolio, it makes some sense to have the middlemen.

Anything smaller should be all manufacturer direct...with no middleman leech leeching 50 to 80% for sending an email and shipping a box! The former sends the cash back over to the manufacturer so the guys who make the product get paid better, more investment in engineering r&d, etc, etc, etc

The leech adds nothing of value to product that sells itself on its own merit. If the manufacturer did his own promo, it sure as hell doesn’t cost as much as a lousy 50% that goes to the dealer leech (apparently, he did some promo bull).

I’d rather not go on a tangent and talk about real estate, the franchise mafias, etc. America has loved to reward the low aptitude middlemen a bit too much, just a bit too much (make him think he's real special everyday)...

Hifi is the worst offender...

Never again will I buy a DAC without asking here first.

@nonoise says: "Denafrips also sells lessor quality spec'd units that look the same on AliEpxress."

Wow, just another reason to stay away from Denafrips. 

I tried the Ares II and sold it pretty quickly. In my room acoustics, r2r just doesn't do it for me. And I never wanted to go up the Denafrips latter because of their lack of remote. However Alvin is a great guy and I wish him the best with this unfortunate situation for Vinshine. I still dealt with him for non Denafrips products, like the Jay's cdt2-mk3 and LHY SW-10. There are very few gentlemen as helpful and courteous as him in the business.

Generally, "grey market" means you forego any warranty. I used to buy photo and video equipment and sometimes would take a chance but no more. A $500 item might be worth the risk, but for my wallet, anything more than $1000 better be the "real deal" with a manufacturer’s warranty. [Along with good reviews from customers who had to use the warranty service.]

The issue for Denafrips going forward is will they try selling direct or will they put forth the effort to have someone like Alvin again to give customers the assurance they need to spend $2000 and up on a Chi-Fi DAC?

I was set on getting a Pontus II -12th or 15th, whatever they called it, but now, well, probably not. I’ll keep looking. Maybe a chip-based DAC with a FPGA DSP will be the ticket, if it could offer all that "natural tonality, with great imaging and a wide soundstage" associated with R2R - and still give me some bass slam and definition.

Just watched the video that I think @fthompson251 was referring to:

Official Announcement: Farewell to DENAFRIPS - YouTube

As mentioned by others, Alvin is a class act.

They're lack of a return possibility means I'd never order anything from them. I'm sure he'll land on his feet.

Wow Alvin is a class act.

Breaking News.....Alvin is associated with LAIV  (live).....The hottest new DAC on the market  $10K sound for $2700. See Hi Fi Huffs review. I bought one it's fantastic detail retrieval isn't bettered by any under 10K. Compared by Huff to DCS Bartok and Chord Dave. The deal of the year.

Loving my Pontis II with firmware upgrade.  Glad to hear he will support his customers.  

I whole heartedly disagree with anyone knocking Alvin Chee as a "middle man who adds no value".

He is one of the few middle men who has added tremendous value to me in the past. He is the one who set up US repair for Denafrips products, who instituted the 3 year transferrable warranty, who pushed for firmware updates, who created the videos on how to upgrade firmware and components , who has answered any and all emails requesting information/recommendations, and who fought hard to not have the never ending naming convention that was driving resale prices down.

He fought for those of us who own Denafrips products, and apparently lost. I have owned a bunch of Denafrips products (DACs, DDCs, amps, preamps; all purchased through Vinshine. Also LHY linear power supplies, and several friends with the Jay's CDT2 MKIII transports.

I will absolutely continue to follow Vinshine and Alvin, and have absolutely NO qualms about buying from him. What can be better than having a reliable partner for Chinese hi-fi, that stands behind them with integrity.

I agree with the positive comments for Alvin.  I've ordered a couple of things him and always pleased with service and support.  I am pleased with my T2 but if it comes time to upgrade I will probably look to him first before I go to Denafrips.

I very much doubt that anyone who’s actually had dealings with Alvin would have anything remotely negative to say about him. I wish him all the best going forward. 

@mbmi

I looked at the new LAIV dac.

It seems to me there will be a need for improvements in the design before I would even consider it. First, it has no AES input and that kind of hurts when you have 1k AES cable with nowhere to go. And most importantly there is no ext master clock connection. I understand it will recognize an external clock via I2s, but that's not enough, there are other components needing a master clock that are not I2s, like my Jay's cdt2-mk3, which by the way is connected via AES. Anyway thanks for the info as I was not aware of the LAIV dac but it just doesn't fit my system right now. It does have a nice remote though, and that was always to big miss with Denafrips.

Vinshine has been so much the front end of Denefrips that I really can't say I have a sense of the company without Vinshine. I have two Denefrips DACs and found Vinshine to be reliable and reasonable. If Denefrips is getting another distributor or going a DTC route I guess time will tell. I wouldn't have bought their gear from Ali Express/AliBaba; that seems too opaque for buying high-value items.

I wish Vinshine well. They have a good business model.

@mbmi

You lost me at Steve Huff…🤦‍♂️

Just do yourself a favor and buy a used DCS instead you’re welcome. 

Once again Agon continues to confuse me.  I posted the same YouTube link for this with the subject line very similar to yours, right before you did and my post violated something or another and was removed.

Go figure.

Just wanted to add another shout out for Alvin. I've been into high end audio for close to 50 years and have been fortunate to connect with a number of excellent dealers over that time.  They all helped to point me in the direction that I had wanted to go and were all great communicators.  Alvin ranks right up there.  I've purchased a number of components from him starting around 5 years ago - Kinki Studios Amp, 2 Denafrips DACs, Jay Audio CD transport, Volumio Rivo streamer with linear power supply, upgrade boards, etc.  He has always provided top notch customer support and responded to any query within hours.  Someone that I came to trust very quickly.  And passionate about music as well! 

I have been investigating SS DAC's for quite a period of time and until yesterday had not discovered one used on systems that I am familiar with that has caught my attention like the way a Denafrip Venus II had yesterday at a Bake Off between DAC's and CDP's.

SS DAC's and Valve CDP's were used as comparisons.

I am have been familiarised over time with all models in use, and these were attached to a New Design 3 Watt Output Tetrode Pre Amp - Tetrode -Pentode Power Amp, with a Speaker unfamiliar to me, with reasonable High Efficiency.

The Venus II has had FW Updates.

In the past the Venus with out a FW update was OK but a big ?mark being present over how long it could be lived with used for extended length replays beyond comparison periods of time allocated.

Yesterday in this system and a follow up Amp in use, a PP 300b, the Venus II proved itself to be a very attractive SS DAC, especially one I would consider experiencing for much longer periods of time in the home system.

The recent change in Business Structure, if leaving models produced to the previous standards will be producing a Venus II model that is well Worthy of being considered for investigation.   

@pindac Thanks for sharing. I wish I could hear both the Laiv Harmony and Denafrips Venus. I noticed Denafrips reduced their warranty period from 3 years to 1 - I hope this does not mean the quality of the new units will be lower.

@classic8 I looked at used prices for the Venus II and have seen a item in Black Finish sold for approx' $2K earlier this year.

The LAIV Harmony has also been seen sold used for similar monies.

If new models is not critical for the items to go on a shortlist, this could be an attractive offset to a shortened Warranty Period.     

@pindac Yes, I have similar thoughts.  Some reviewers claim the Laiv Harmony comes close to the Terminator II; if so it would seem the Harmony is a better value because apparently there is a big difference between the Venus and Terminator. Another consideration for me is that Denafrips units play native DSD vs the Harmony which converts to PCM - in practice do not know if this is an issue or not.

@pindac Any new thoughts regarding LAiV Harmony vs Venus II 12th-1? I noticed the Pontus II 15th uses the same resistor ladder as the Venus, and the main difference between the units is the clock.  So I wonder how different the sound would be between Pontus II 15th vs Venus II 12th-1 vs LAiV Harmony? Denafrips has a 10% sale through August 10, so wondering if the Pontus II 15th is the best value right now?

After a recent Thread I have been reading, I became familiarised with the notion that Clocks or Clocking Methodology does have an Impact on the End Sound and have concluded any Digital Source user (myself included) will benefit from learning more about the influence a particular Clock Type can have.

This is a new area of consideration for myself and one not yet investigated by having putting in place dedicated experiences to learn where End Sound is effected for detectable improvement where the Clock design is concerned.

As an extreme example but a bonafide report, a $13K Clock was added to a $3K Transports Signal Path. The Transport although not being seemingly attractive for the End Sound as a basic model, was transformed to a very attractive performer with the addition of the Clock   

I would prefer to encourage an individual to go down the route of seeking out more info, about the differences to be expected from different Clocks.

It does look like this is the area now that has a significant influence on the End Sounds being produced and may prove to be the deal winner, when a correct marriage is discovered.   

Yes, I am also learning, and I think you are correct. Many users have reported sound improvement using external clocks and DDCs.  Maybe the Venus II 12th-1’s superior clock justifies the price differential.  It would be interesting if Denafrips released a Venus II 15th.

The Link is a description made about Clocks from 2010, not a bad place to start and see how the Market and users have evolved in their attitudes to the Subject of using Clocks.

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/does-your-studio-need-digital-master-clock

There are not discovered in my search a line up of Clocks in use like this in recent times. 

Maybe somebody else knows a good place to extend the reading as a modern discussion.