Good news. My faith in humanity has crept up (very slightly.)
Declare the correct value on the Customs form?
What do you think? What would you do?
Fortunately at long last bought a ‘holy grail’ LP for $1,200. It arrived safe from Europe to the USA. It is clearly not as described. The Seller has asked the return be declared a $50 value on the Customs form.
Thank you for your thoughts, ideas and/or advice…
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So in the end...I declared the full $1,200 purchase value on the LP returned to Europe. Import customs charged Euros 9. The carrier charged a bit too for some admin costs and he had to confirm the item had been delivered out of the country. After much cordial communications the Seller finally reflected he had mis-graded the LP and LP Cover versus Discogs grading definitions. Well, we can all do it. He fully refunded the original $1,200 purchase price plus shipping both ways. A learning experience for both of us and we will keep in touch...with the offer accepted to have pictures of future big ticket items to help confirm grading. |
vinylfun More innuendo in your reply and we know not why?
What ‘major European country’ has all this ‘red tape?’ It would be helpful to let this free advice mean something. Why keep this info out of the answer?. I mean, it’s not a card game and you have to keep the cards ‘tight to your chest’. Name and shame this countries customs system.
That’s my logic as your update appears to be more subterfuge than anything else. Withholding important facts for no apparent reason, and just like before, the name of this ‘holy grail’ LP The mind boggles!
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So now reality has unfolded a bit more and this is what has happened so far… Long reasoning omitted, $1,200 was the declared value on the package. The package was then held in the carrier’s warehouse in this major European country for a week. Why? Because Custom’s required a ‘Proof of Delivery’ to the USA form. The Seller provided this. Customs is now charging an Import Tax. Yes, even though the paperwork, including two sets of original shipping documents, clearly shows the LP went from A to B and now back to A. The rate to the Seller will be between 7% and 19% so between $84 and $228. Thank you for all your thoughts and I will keep you posted! |
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Glad to hear your optimism....I get so frustrated how people always assume the worst and start crucifying someone. Your post did not imply and wrong doing by the seller. The condition of a $1200 album is going to be heavily scrutinized by any buyer so any inconsistency from the ad is valid and sounds like your seller is acknowledging that. I would not worry about something being snapped in half. Take some extra precautions on a sturdier support inside the box or put into another box. FedEx International is surprisingly efficient. I just bought a power supply upgrade for my streamer from Poland and standard FedEx International shipping for about $35 took one week and the box was in perfect shape. I recently started selling vinyl on Discogs to start thinning my collection. I have bought a lot there over the years but am new as a seller. I usually only buy NM and have been fine with small marks and imperfections....to me that is 'Near', but this does open up a door of subjectivity that is perceived much differently by people....especially on a highly valuable record. I guess you don't want to share what album, but I am curious : ) |
@vinylfun l think this post has reached side one’s run out groove!
Wouldn’t it be ‘fun’ to turn it over now, name this holy grail ‘vinyl’ (requested twice already) and play side two. Let all those interested all have a fun time debating if this golden goose is in any real world reality worth $1,200 ?
Thats my Logic! |
@mclinnguy I used to have a puli. Of course they are popular at some point in time and then they are not, goes in waves. It's hard to keep 100s of sheep around to keep them happy in a city apartment. |
@grislybutter Hungary? We own a Puli, not common in Canada, we get plenty of questions, but he was not imported from Hungary The $2000 replacement was the current cost of a used MCU (media control unit) from a wrecked/salvage car from ebay etc. that I would have to buy to obtain the same tegra board. It was not possible to buy any of the parts inside the MCU individually. |
@mclinnguy hah! That's wild! (I don’t understand the replacement cost $2000 math) I once paid the price of 2 new monitors (in customs, taxes and fees) for bringing one used monitor into Hungary. I could have left it with the customs but, it was too much good money after bad by then, and I had to have it. |
Ok, if you want to hear ridiculous regarding sending goods over the border: I had a tegra computer board from my Tesla, built in Fremont California, that was failing because of a $20 flash chip. My choice from Tesla was replace the whole MCU infotainment unit (the whole big glass screen and all the guts contained) at a cost of $4000 Canadian at a Canadian Tesla service centre. Some figured out a way to simply replace the chip in the tegra board by hot air soldering a new one, and transferring the vehicle data from the old chip to the new one, so the car worked. After many success stories from others I decided this to do this. I removed the MCU unit, removed the tegra board, and mailed it down to a fellow (with an Asian name) in California to do the work for $500, then I would get it mailed back and reinstall and I save more than $3000. Great! He suggested I insure the tegra board for $2000, because that would be the cost to replace it should it get lost. Makes sense to me. I ship it insured for $2000 via Fedex from Canada to California, and Fedex charges the receiver $300 extra as the tegra board was made in China, as this was when Trump was in office the last time and he slapped a 15% tariff on all Chinese goods. Yes, a part from an American car, sent from Canada back to the US, was subject to a 15% duty on a "suggested" $2000 replacement value for a $100 actual part cost, to replace/repair a $20 part, because the computer board was made in China.
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Come to think of it, the entire premise of this thread is ridiculous. It's already been established by @carlsbad2 the point of a value is irrelevant since there's no import duty. Also what you paid for it is irrelevant. It's not worth what you paid for it, so how do you know it's worth even $50 or 50¢? Put the 50 bucks on it and send it back already! |
@vinylfun is this a private purchase or is it an official store? |
And this ’holy grail’ LP is.....well, unfortunately I do not have a copy to keep yet as this copy is being returned. I will hunt another down ’in the wild’ and can then let you know.... :-) The Seller readily agreed he was too enthusiastic with his description. The "NM" grading and writing it was "...like new..." and so on was not the case in reality. Oh well. Previously he has always accurately graded and described his records I bought. This was a unique blip. C’est la vie! |
+1 for curiousjim in fact, in general we know nothing about the actual problem with the LP, other than that it might be worth $1200 to a particular collector. By the way, valuing it at $1200 solely for the benefit that might accrue if it’s lost or damaged might equally be thought of as fraudulent by a determined moralist. |
Listen to those who know. This is returned goods, no duty, no fraud, I've done this exact thing when I've had upgrades done with my Canadian build equipment (US to Canada shipment).
If you list value as $50, how would that bring up red flag, this is entirely different shipment than when album was shipped to you. Does customs have xray vision and photographic memory to recall this was originally a $1200 album!
And why would you have any morality problem with the $50 valuation, in essence there is no actual goods changing hands, so duty being charged twice for goods that didn't change hands, that's extortion.
As for being fearful of customs, where is the jail for customs cheats, $1200 is relatively nothing in the whole realm of goods going through customs. If caught the worst you'd suffer is hold on package, they determine value, you pay the duty they determined, package continues on it's way. |
P.S. to the above part b. - I assumed that the port-of-entry agent noticed the LP is undervalued and may not notice the 'returned goods' box was checked. This is reasonable because Tariffs and Fraud are higher-priority issues than 'returned goods'. This scenario is more common than one may think (I worked in this field for several years). Again, good luck with your decision. |
As many have stated: a. No one pays a Customs "(Country Name} Return Goods" duty on this item. So, this is NOT a Customs Duty ($) issue. b. If you lower the value of this item from $1200 to $50, you may red-flag this shipment at the port-of-entry. Why? Customs agencies collect tariffs, and customs agents are trained to spot items that are dramatically undervalued. If your box is flagged, this alone could hold-up the shipment for months. c. If you lower the value of this item from $1200 to $50, the world now views it as a $50 item (it is plausible that something happened to cause the value to significantly drop while it was in your possession). Consequently - if the LP is lost or damaged, you are likely to receive $50 in return. Why? On a really bad day, you may need to send a PDF of the shipping docs to VISA and PayPal, who will not reimburse you above $50, because YOU lowered the items value - leaving you in the position of having lied about the value of the (now $50) LP OR forging the shipping documents - bad either way. c. On the other hand, if you declare the LP to be worth $1200, you can track it until it leaves the U.S. If it is lost or stolen after it leaves the U.S., it is an issue for the seller. Be certain to keep your shipping/tracking documents. Be certain to photo-document the reason why the LP is not as advertised. I would also photo-document packaging the LP for shipment (to avoid arguments that shipping-damage was caused by poor packing). Because the seller misrepresented the item, I suspect that most buyers would be fine forcing the seller assuming responsibility for the issue.
Best of luck with your decision!
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I live in the EU and can testify that any import shipment from the countries outside will be charged with so called 'Vat' tax (around 20 percent, depending of country) and that tax will be charged on cost of goods and cost of transport (shipping) together. To import something and not pay import tax (like a gear that you have send for repair) you need to make such papers with official fast forwarder (that also cost, usually from 100usd and above). So, the mentioned seller is probably just trying to avoid more potential costs, since record, if declared for 1200usd will be taxed for some 25 percent or more, when received. It is possible to declare a lesser value and still have it insured with carrier for bigger amount, at least from EU side |
Where is there any potential for “fraud”? It’s a friggin’ record, for goodness sake. The person who may have committed fraud is the seller. We’re not talking about diamonds or precious metals or any other commodity that has a commonly understood value scale. If the thing is not what the seller said it was, it probably isn’t even worth $50. And again, you’re returning an already used item to its place of origin. On a US Customs form, that is a category for which there is no charge. |
During my career with the USPS, I worked a short stint as a window clerk. We made it a practice to inform shippers sending valuable items to certain foreign countries NOT to purchase insurance or send their item Registered. Both services required labels that thieves looked for. You need to remember that once it leaves the US, you are no longer dealing with supposedly honest American government employees, you're dealing with other country's officials, for however many countries it travels through. This may be why the seller made the request, as the Customs label has to be affixed to the outside of the package with the declared value clearly printed on it. Foreign customs officials don't tend to suspect contraband being shipped from the US, so they would not likely be interested enough in a low balled value to actually open the package for inspection. Likewise, a thief wouldn't be interested either. |
@riie I used to. Still traveling there once or twice a year |
I once traveled from Rochester, New York, where I lived, to the IKEA store in Toronto. It was a long time ago. I had 7 foot tall shelves sticking 3’ out of the back of my hatchback car wrapped with 100 feet of saran wrap because it was raining like hell. The border agent ln Canada asked me if I had anything to declare… There was no cost to bring it over the border, butI am still laughing at it to this day and it was 35 years ago. I lived near the Canadian border. Everybody said DO NOT LIE when crossing the border, EVER! Bent |
@grislybutter do you live within the EU zone? |
The album reveal is worth a thread of its own.