DAC diminishing returns

Amazing how Denafrips has no return policy....  that is a deal breaker for me.  

DACs are fascinating.  All DACs present you with a tradeoff between detail and soundstage.  If you are looking for fine inner detail, great separation of strings, etc... be prepared to compromise in terms of soundstage.  If your priority is soundstage, be willing to compromise in terms of absolute detail.  

In the sub $2K range, I am far from an expert.  But two units I know well are the Chord Qutest and the Questyle CMA 12.  Chord has a reputation for being a bit forward and in practice, bright.  It also tends to not have a very wide soundstage.  That said, no one is better than Chord in terms of soundstage depth and stability between the speakers.  If you want a clear and stable central image, Qutest is amazing.  

Alternatively, the CMA 12 sounds big.  It has scale in terms of width of soundstage and good depth.  Your image will extend well beyond the outside of your speakers assuming proper setup.  It is neutral to maybe a hair warm.  Inner detail compared to Chord Qutest will be okay.  It is detailed, but not in the same league as Chord.  Just like Chords soundstage width is not in the same league as Questyle.  

At a root level, there are tons of awesome DACs on the market.  Do your research and try one in your system on a return policy.  Most return policies charge you return shipping and maybe 3% making your risk relatively small.  

Based on your comments above, it does look like you are not getting hung up on R2R vs Chip vs FPGA.  That is wise.  People make generalizations about these styles but that is driven more by the house sounds of popular brands rather than actual differences in how they reproduce sound.  

I have no practical recommendations on what you should actually demo.  As I said, this is a price range I don't know that well.  Hopefully the above comparison helps.  

Regarding interconnects, I use studio quality, Mogami to my Naim and Van Damme coaxial to my Bifrost 2.  Audiophile cables aren’t warranted at my equipment level.  I should move way up the audio food chain before considering the expense of such cabling.  
Browsing around the internet I once read that Alan Parsons was quoted as saying, “audiophiles don’t listen to music on their equipment, they use your music to listen to their equipment.”  I feel this is true until you reach the a point where you just decide this is good enough.  Stop fretting.  Maybe my Bifrost 2 is enough.  Forget the pursuit and sit back and take in an artists work. In time, new equipment will be fun.  Thanks all.

I've owned the following DACs over the years and have settled on liking the R2R sound overall vs the DS chip DACs.

• Denafrips Venus II
• Benchmark DAC3 B
• Bryston BDA-3
• Chord Qutest
• Schiit Bifrost 2
• Topping D90 MQA
• Topping D30 Pro

I had the Bifrost 2 and am now running a Denafrips Venus II, yes the Venus sounds better in my setup but the Bifrost is an excellent value, the cost justification was worth it me but the law of diminishing marginal returns certainly applies. I am now upgrading to a Holo Audio May KTE and hope this will be the end game DAC for my system. I can't justify spending much more than that on a DAC relative to my other components. In your setup you will notice an improvement going to the Denafrips Pontus. You may want to try an Ares first for less money.

I don’t want to be duped into buying something I don’t really need.

This is a fascinating statement, in that the OP implies that if it improves the sound then it is a matter of "need."  It's amazing how us audio freaks have extended Need from food and shelter to fidelity upgrades. Our poor spouses.

Anyway, DACs do sound somewhat different - not as different as speakers but there are still differences.  I like to switch back and forth from my Schiit Gumby and my Mytek Liberty II.  Very different approaches.

No, there is no limit. Just what you’re willing to spend. Inversely, there is a point of actual returns. I have many dacs, and have tried them from all price points. I don’t believe under $1000 there is much difference and in many cases, the cheaper one will sound better. Beyond about $2000 it’s all going to sound better. I think the people asking about this just want to feel better about their purchase. Enjoy what you have. If it’s not your taste, get something else.

DACs do make a difference. I find the differences aren't all that subtle, but more subtle than different speakers or headphones.

I read nothing but good things about the Pontus. 

DACs and amps are about flavor....colorations. I personally enjoy them. Tube amps, tube DACs, R2R...good flavors for me. Give me the second harmonic, give me a slow filter, NOS...I like colorations that make the experience feel more real.  

If you want ultimate transparency then you can buy from Benchmark or even cheaper with something like Topping D90. Have it as the artists and sound engineers intended.

Almost all of us have issues with our rooms. Seeing a measurement of one's room is a gut check. If we put fully faithful equipment and speakers in our rooms, it will put a microscope on the flaws.

So what do most of us do? We buy speakers and equipment that flatters the sound instead of examining it. R2R is a good example. It is easier and more relaxing to listen to for music.  

I read nothing but good things about the Pontus. 

You should do more reading...

Test drove a few DACs over the last 3 months (Audiolab M-DAC, Chord Qutest, Denafrips Pontus II - on loan from a friend).....and heard the HoloAudio Spring 3 Level 2 that a friend owns. To my ears the Denafrips and HoloAudio R2R dacs were the best overall sounders, and I chose the Denafrips Pontus II over the Spring 3.....mostly because I got to demo it in my system. Chord had some amazing skills, but was too fatiguing to my ears....too much detail?

I have also used a Onkyo C-7030 and Audiolab 6000 CDT CD transports with the Pontus and have had zero issues

PS Audio DirectStream dac blew my mind. it brought me all the cliches.
30 day in home trial. nothing to lose. 

@googoogjoob

writing in bolded type and italics does not make you more credible...

@jjss49 credibility comes from the wife noticing all the way from the next room.

jiss49....but it does deliver emotion.  

@seanheis1 if you think the D90 is the ultimate transparency and what the engineer intended, you both don’t know DACs and sound engineering. That’s pure nonsense. Not that I would recommend it for home use, but if you want to hear what a studio engineer intended you should probably get some large ATC studio monitors and maybe a Burl converter. 

@mayoradamwest  transparent DACs are becoming a dime a dozen. This is easily measured. Transparent DACs are also no fun and that is why we have tube DACs, R2R and options such as NOS and slow filters. 

@googoogjoob 

I just got a DirectStream and I like it too!!!

Hi @dsfreeh,

For what it’s worth,  I have the original Schiit Bifrost multibit and I also have a Denafrips Pontus ll and the Pontus ll is hands down better sounding to me. There is nothing wrong with the BiFrost, in fact I’m still using it in a second system, but the difference in sound was immediately noticeable.

All the best.

JD

I own a very highly modified Benchmark DAC1 HDR.  It has great bones such as a linear power supply and good DAC chips.   However, it has really cheap computer power and filter caps, regulators (50¢).   I replaced them all with audiophile quality caps, $50 regulators and a new audio board, among other items.  The result is a very high end unit ($10K) at under $1400.  Similar for less money using an Emotiva DAC from 2011 which selling for half the Benchmark, about $1000 converted (no room for another audio board).  

I would be suspect of many less expensive DACs unless they include higher end components (just like my discussion about transports-cheap computer based transports generally result in inferior sound as audio transports).  

@dsfreeh I have read through this thread and have seen a few Items I have received demonstrations off in an home system belonging to others.

I have a bespoke built Valve DAC used in my home system.

I get the message that you are looking to get the best return for your outlay, and with that in mind, it does have a constraint to the value of the models you are to be directed toward.

As an outside observer and one who is quite frugal in their purchases.

By 'Frugal' I mean I am willing to purchase, on my terms and only when the spend seems sensical. I am set on achieving a change for the better from a device, not just a change to a sonic signature between one device and another. To achieve this I have had most of my devices bespoke built or modified to surpass the standard design.

I am not a lone listener, I attend various events through HiFi Clubs and Forum Meetings where there is encouragement to demonstrate devices to a group of attendees. There is not any time I have not received an appraisal from within a group that leans toward being that a good impression has been made. This is achieved for a plug in device that has been alienated from the home system.

Recently I was able to be present when Two DAC's were used as a comparison at a club event, a Denafrips that cost £1000 direct from the Manufacturer and a Linn that had undergone their latest upgrades.

Both were with almost Zero Hours of use, but the Linn has had a usage life prior to the upgrade components being added.

Both were used in a very familiar system with a Steamer and a CDT Source.

For myself the Denafrips was a much more noticeable performer for the better, the device that many hours could be spent sitting at the hot spot in front of the presentation. The owner of the Denafrips has now sold the model being demonstrated to an attendee and has purchased the Terminator Model.         Hence, when a up the range model DAC is referenced from this Brands range as having a a much more affordable DAC from another Brand compare in a manner that is with an attraction, it does seem to have a gravitas attached to the suggestion on offer.   

I was struggling with the Linn, it was not as a attractive device during this comparison. I was leaning towards the Linn being usable for background music, but it would be difficult for myself to maintain a reasonable period of time seated in the hot spot.

Being a 'Frugal Type' I was caught by the reference to the Benchmark DAC2 and the knowledge being made known, even though it has been superseded as the 'go to' device, it is perfectly satisfying when reintroduced to the system and compared to the Denafrips Terminator Model.

The comparison being made is that a used value $1000ish DAC is proving to be an attractor when compared to a $4000ish DAC, when used in the system belonging to the contributor of this information.

As an individual who is also not adverse to have a device modified ( or an alternative approach to achieve a device the manufacturer does not offer ). I was forming the view a search might reveal modifications that can be carried out on a out of Warranty period Benchmark DAC.

One such route to achieve this has been made known.

It does appear the Benchmark DAC2 has the credentials to be used as an change for the better device and will lend itself to a modification to be further improve on this, as such methods for modifications are made known.

That as a package fits perfectly into my thoughts on what it is to be 'Frugal' as a purchaser. 

It might be a period of two years before a Denafrips Terminator is seen as a used sale item for approx' $2000ish which I assume will be a similar money as a DAC2 with a modification carried out to it.      

VerdantAudio’s comments are true having experienced it myself with my own system having recently owned FPGA , dac chip and R2R dacs from the likes of AudioByte Vox , PS Audio , Rockna , Denafrips Terminator 2 , Holo Audio May  currently I am absolutely thrilled with a chip based dac from Merason .

Defeeh I meant to add in my comment before posting that none of the dacs I’ve tried are in your budget of 2K , it’s good you are open to any of the audio trades dac topologies, borrow and borrow as many as you can and choose what sounds best to you in your own system .

VerdantAudio’s comments are true having experienced it myself with my own system having recently owned FPGA , dac chip and R2R dacs from the likes of AudioByte Vox , PS Audio , Rockna , Denafrips Terminator 2 , Holo Audio May  currently I am absolutely thrilled with a chip based dac from Merason .

Interesting, as I switched from a Pontus II to the Merason in my system, and really wanted to like it. I found to be pleasing, and particularly good with older, less than optimal recordings, but at the same time lacking in the details retrieved by high-quality R2R DACs. I auditioned an AQUA La Scala, found it to be clearly superior to the Merason, and now own one.

My point, however, is not that everyone would likely have the same result in their systems, but rather that system synergy is extremely important when assessing DACs. I could see the Merason being perfect for a system that leans to the clinical, and/or bright side, as it would likely smooth out some of the harshness. Etc.

Whipsaw ,…LOL 

@in_shore

You find it amusing that I heard some similar characteristics in the Merason that some reviewers have also mentioned?

I understand that you may have different impressions, but that was precisely the point of my post. Variables such as the related components matter.

DACs are fascinating.  All DACs present you with a tradeoff between detail and soundstage.  If you are looking for fine inner detail, great separation of strings, etc... be prepared to compromise in terms of soundstage.  If your priority is soundstage, be willing to compromise in terms of absolute detail.  

Couldn't agree more. IMO the soundstage is from the 2nd order harmonic distortion.

Same with amps. The Benchmark ABH2 and DAC3 won't give you soundstage but they will give you very high detail.

IMO, what is better is what our system needs to create balance with our preferences. Some call that synergy.

Pro Audio folks poke fun at us, but our goals are just different. Some AV folks also laugh at us, but trying to make music sound believable with only two channels ain't easy. ;-)  

Since you already have a Schitt DAC - why not try this for 15 days... and... see if you like it!  And return it if you don't.  At $2199... it is a "friggin bargain" and sounds great to boot!  Can't beat that deal....

https://www.schiit.com/products/yggdrasil

I have had the Yggy for 2 years and have "never looked back."

i never felt there is a tradeoff between detail retrieval and soundstaging... in fact in my experience, excellent detail retrieval enables excellent imaging and soundstaging...

@bassdude actually if I’m not mistaking Schiit will charge you a 15% restocking fee upon return. So you”re down around $330 (provided it retails for $2200) plus the return shipping charges which could round it up to around $400 all in and turn it into  a pretty Schitty deal if you ask me. I’d buy used or from a dealer that allows a return for a full refund in the event you don’t like it. Since it’s direct sale only you’re Schiit out o’ luck
 

@jjss49 +1

@jjss49 +1

I agree… typically high detail = better soundstaging. To me the real trick… and magic of a great system is to get really natural / musical sound and a great sound stage / imaging without being overwhelmed (disproportionately forward) with details. Often this is where tubes excel.

@jjss49  Conditionally agree.

There has been fine line between neutrality and the analytical in my setup. I've been doing a lot of streaming setup experimentation over the years, there has been the rare case when lowered noise floor has resulted in too finely etched sound stage and imaging, so I can see the case for higher resolution resulting in diminished soundstaging.  Still, I'd have to say higher resolving setup nearly always results in better soundstaging. I consider improved sound stage and imaging as inherently allied to increased resolution. My theory on diminished soundstaging resulting from lower noise floor is due to mismatched clocks in various streaming devices.

@electroslacker ...there’s a DAC3 but even they feel that’s getting into diminishing returns...

It can be. Demos at home in your system helps a lot to decide. Had a very nice DAC3B here for several weeks. Great on paper. Returned it. Ended up with a different R2R Ladder chip DAC at less cost, a unit with worse specs yet it simply sounded more engaging and more musical in my system. Let your ears be the guide for your system and setup.

audphile1, When someone sends a product back after a trial period it's now a used item. The manufacturer has to sell it used or demo. That's the reason for the restocking fee, to cover the loss. Yes it's true, you will pay for a trial period, there are no free lunches. 

@charliee I get the reasons…was clarifying their return policy since the details were omitted and expressed my thoughts about it. 

@dsfreeh my thoughts about your question…

There are differences between DACs that’s obvious. One important aspect of “diminishing returns “ in my opinion is it is reached much sooner on a system that’s not up to the level to reveal the differences and make you appreciate your investment and not believe you were duped into buying a component the potential of which you just can’t realize because you have other bottlenecks in your system.

So basically my point is everything has to balance out. I have never heard a Schiit DAC or the Denafrips. With the denafrips figure anything goes wrong it will need to take a trip to China. That alone makes it a non-starter for my but that’s just my take on it. I would stick with something that has solid customer service and an authorized repair center in your country of residence. Just my $0.02

Just a quick comment. Schiit's home trial policy on their higher end products deducts a 5% charge if you return it.  Big difference between that figure and 15%.   As for shipping, I've bought several items from them and the most I've ever been charged for shipping is $36 for a Aegir amp.

@mlsstl I stand corrected. Schiit return policy restocking fee is between 5-15% depending on product and for Yiggy it is 5%. So actually yea not too terrible in this case. 

Vinshine Audio / Denafrips provides product warranty support, servicing, and repairs within the U.S. ...via TEK.

To clear up some incorrect information......Denafrips products are sold by an amazing distributor in Vinshine Audio and it's owner Alvin Chee, I've communicated with him many times (as I've bought several Denafrips products), I have never had such amazing response and attention as I've received from them.....emails returned in hours, unless overnight in Singapore.

Their products have a 3 year fully transferrable warranty, and the USA based service center for Denafrips products is TekSystems in Buda, TX

IMHO there are likely 10 other things in your system that need far more attention. I have heard DACs with intentional sound differences using tubes, and I have heard DACs that allow you to change the filter settings that causes an apparently audible difference which you may or may not like. Technically most of the setting are "worse", but if they float your boat why not. I have also compared expensive DACs (Mola Mola, DCS) with friends and could not tell the difference from "mid-priced" DACs. I thought maybe just maybe there would be, but there was not. It is really easy to convince yourself there is a difference, but when they did the switching and I did not know which was which, it was all the same. I was startled by how close you needed to have the volume settings though.

+1 for Alvin Chee at Vinshine Audio, excellent customer service and communication, absolutely no concerns with purchasing from him.

IMHO there are likely 10 other things in your system that need far more attention. I have heard DACs with intentional sound differences using tubes, and I have heard DACs that allow you to change the filter settings that causes an apparently audible difference which you may or may not like. 

Changing filter settings can definitely be noticeable. I believe it is done through phase shifting but I could be wrong. But yes, it is technically a "HiFi effect" or coloration. 

I also agree that it can be very difficult to tell differences between very well measured Delta Sigma DACs. Good luck finding audible differences between a Benchmark DAC3 and Topping D90SE. 

Some people say that DACs are a solved problem. This is true only if you believe the goal is faithful reproduction of the original signal. Personally, that is not my goal and that is why I am a member of Club R2R ;-) 

I have only listened to a variety of DACs below $1k. I couldn’t tell the difference.  That is why I asked the question, are there diminishing returns.  I want to buy a better DAC, but as you go up in cost is improvement worth it, or are they only marginally better, or not better at all.  After this very thoughtful discussion, I thank everyone.

I am coming down on the side of R-2-R.  

OP,

Most of us have started out a bit wary of “big buck” audiophile stuff. Most of us then had a world changing purchase. For me, my first audiophile component was a tape deck. I had purchased this highly reviewed “amazing” Onkyo (midfi) deck. ok, yawn, it was fine. Then I had some trouble with it. I went to a high end store and saw a 7 year old first generation 35 pound Nakamichi tape deck. I took it home to try. OMG… I Remember having chills go up and down my back.. goose bumps on my arms. I had absolutely no idea that something like that was remotely possible. It put the performance of the Onkyoin the category of transistor radio. But playing around in the shallow end addind a couple hundred bucks will not do it. This where dealers can help… take an audiophile unit home.

That was the beginning of one of the most rewarding pursuits of my life. You spend some ungodly amount of money on a 30 - 45 pound incredibly well constructed piece of audiophile equipment and the performance is phenomenal and you don’t look to upgrade it for a decade or two. BTW, I don’t think one of my components weighs less than 35 pounds… isolation from vibration, noise… quality components and lots of engineering.

Dsfreeh,

I wondered the same when looking for a DAC for my system, and in my research, I had decided to go with an FPGA or R2R Dac instead of a DAC chip based model.....would a $1,000ish DAC like the Denafrips Aries II R2R at $820 be sufficient, or should I move up the ladder to the likes of the Chord Qutest FPGA $2,000ish, Denafrips Pontus II R2R at $1,750, or HoloAudio Spring 3 Level 2 at $2,400 be worth it.

In MY system, the Denafrips Pontus II R2R DAC sounded best....though I can also say that the Chord Qutest and HoloAudio Spring 3 are both phenominal DACs......just not in my system.

My recent acquisition is pretty nice, but I bought it with the knowledge that in 10 months or so I will be taking a DAC or two home that is $7 k or so to try head to head.   If the difference is pronounced I am going to take advantage of their trade up policy.   

@oddiofyl 

That can be a really effective strategy. Getting to really know a piece of equipment for an extended length of time, so you really know the sound… then comparing with something better allows for a “deep” and thorough comparison. 
 

Good plan. Good reason to work with a dealer.

I’m keeping prior DAC also so I will compare all 3 !

I don't know ghdprentice, I had my audiophile epiphany after I got rid of the "big buck" esoteric stuff and started taking the time to really learn what was required for good sound, and paying someone who knew their stuff to get me there. It took big bucks, but the big bucks was concentrated in a few areas.