@cal3713 Here are some of the ("electronica") artists / music I have had in rotation recently: The Avener; Deadmau5; Egyptrixx; Armin van Buuren; Biosphere; Kraftwerk; Nightmares on Wax; The Orb; Primal Scream; Amon Tobin; Goldfrapp; Massive Attack; Robert Miles; Moby; etc. No "weakness" to these ears. Pretty amazing, actually. Hi folks, wondering if anyone with these Cube drivers listens to rock (e.g., Tool) or heavy electronica? Just back from vacation. I need to catch up on the thread. : ) |
Great information folks. And super useful to see the list @david_ten.
Thanks. |
Reading the WBF thread comments I don't doubt that the Wolf Von Lang SON speaker is highly impressive. I am not surprised that some listeners will prefer it to the Nenuphar. It could be better than the Nenuphar in some respects to some listeners. No doubt though that the converse is true. What single audio product is chosen by everyone and scores 10 Of 10 in every sonic parameter and lacks any critical dissenters?
I would accept both are quite excellent with their own sets of strengths and relative shortcomings. I've read enough comments the last 2 years to conclude that the Nenuphars are very capable with a very broad spectrum of music genres. I don't believe that there's an existing speaker that presents every genre of music with equal aplomb at a sublime level. This isn't realistic.
Charles |
@charles1dad Definitely. Agreed. And it's clear from that thread that even the person who changed to WvLs still loved the Nenuphars.
Interesting thing about my possible venture to build Cube Audio based head units for my Coincident PREs is that I could switch back and forth between two high quality presentations by just swapping out the head units (and changing what amps the bass cabs are connected to). |
Hi cal,
Yes, that’d be an ideal option to have. Agree, both excellent ( Cube Audio/Coincident ) but quite different head units /monitors. I read the WBF link and and related thread on reasonable sized horn speakers for modest room dimensions.
Once a high quality level of speakers is reached everyone has their particular favorite brand. Some mentioned were,
Wolf Von Lang
Viking Audio
Odeon Audio
Diesis Audio
Tobias Sound Systems
Horning Audio
I would bet each one is excellent and will appeal to different tastes. So truly impossible to say one is clearly better than the rest.
Without question Cube Audio could easily be added to this list. Not a horn speaker but one that’s suited to similar amplifier requirements.
It just depends on what sonic characteristics one is pursuing.
They will all appeal to those listeners who are in the camp of high quality lower power amplifiers paired with high quality easily driven speakers..
Charles |
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Cal,
Yes KeithR has quite the extensive listening, ownership and auditioning history. On WBF there’s a core of about 12 to 15 people who contribute roughly 75- 80% of the posts and content. However they collectively have vast experience and are consistently interesting to read. Morricab, bonzo 75, spiritofmusic, etc.
They can differ significantly in opinion from one another but the courteous mutual respect and appreciation never wavers. I admire that about them. Trolling isn’t nearly as pervasive on WBF as this site. There was a time when Audiogon had quite similar decorum.
Charles |
Horning are pretty good but like Cube more, personally. No cross over makes a huge difference, it’s just a very difficult art to get the drivers to work over a wide bandwidth. Cube cracked it.
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Very interesting to hear the the Nenuphars have managed to do what most us are skeptical of, the full frequency range reproduction by one driver. It has to bee a special presentation to say the least. Over the years listening and owning many different speakers and drivers I’ve come to realize am silk dome tweeter guy. I can never stand longer periods of listening of other tweeter technology’s. The other day I was able to listen to the new dynaudio confidence 20 and the esotar 3. Frankly I didn’t like the setup at dealer. They had some tube monos based on kt88s and it just couldn’t make it with the bass. Dynaudio have optimized their new models to be a easier load but they still do require some power. I loved the midrange and highs but that was it. I couldn’t detect superiority on much else being away from my critical room. I also heard the new sonus Faber Olympics. They had a warmer and a bit forward sound out of my taste. I much preferred the balanced , neutral and still natural dynaudio. So the Nenuphars seems to me like a great option to an all tube system. Being someone who doesn’t like complex systems and much prefer simplicity and short path to signal, no subwoofer its a must for me. The questions I have would be, how good are the high frequency? Describe if possible. How good is bass on a medium room say 14 x 18 ? Is it deep and able to energize it ? At what volumes? Do they play fast and accurately when demanded? Do they present a neutral and balanced sound or lean towards other spectrums? I appreciate if owners report in with valuable insight of these marvels of modern sound reproduction. |
Ricardo, Your room may be too small for the "10" Nenuphar BECAUSE of the Bass. My room is similar size as yours and I was told to get the Nenuphar Mini's which have the "8".
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Good to know and thanks for the report as I value good bass highly in my book. Dynaudios are known for good bass and that is one of my fears in changing speakers. Other speakers that I heard lately were the Devores O96 and the Magicos A3. Both very good speakers but never made me want to change. I was suspecting the Nenuphars mini would be an excellent choice. Although bass is very important for me I'd be happy with mid 30hz in room response. |
I've been following this thread for some time and think it's interesting and folks are quite helpful and informative. Hope you don't mind a couple of questions:
1) if the Cube driver was designed specifically for amps with low damping factor, why would they work well on the Bakoon 13r and selected other solid-state amps. They must have a significantly higher damping factor than most tube & First Watt, etc. offerings.
2) as anybody heard the Camerton Binom-1 speaker with its unique single driver? Six moons gave it quite the review. Doesn't seem to be any distribution in the US. I also noticed that the driver was recently revised, not sure if it's showing up yet and any products.
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Ricardo,
Given your experience with the Dynaudio, Devore and Magico speakers you have a very solid reference point of high quality competitors. The Nenuphar Mini is so different philosophically and design I'm very interested in your take on it once you've had the opportunity to hear it.
Charles |
@paullb,
Good question.
Stephendunn uses the Vinnie Rossi integrated amplifier which is low output impedance and thus relatively high damping factor. He has achieved outstanding results.
david_ten uses the Found Music 2A3 SET which has a high output impedance and thus a low damping factor. He gets outstanding results driving the Nenuphars. The designer of the Nenuphar is pretty adamant in regard to what type of amplifiers he had in mind during development.
My takeaway is there are certainly additional factors involved that ultimately determine the degree of sucess of an amplifier paired with this speaker.
Charles |
charles1dad
Just a reminder that I use 1 ohm resistors per VR's advice between L2i-SE and positive speaker cable to lower damping factor to 2 which seems to be right in the Nenuphar's sweet spot. And how sweet it is.
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Hi Stephen,
Yes I recall you are using a resistor (Further improvement). Prior to that weren’t you experiencing very good SQ results with the stock Vinnie Rossi amplifier/Nenuphars?
Charles
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Charles,
Yes, your memory serves you well. Straight up the VR L2i-SE was a step above every other pre+amp combo I'd tried with the Nenuphars. Adding the resistors improved the bass and added more presence and air. As so often the case in this hobby, you can't imagine the improvement until you hear it.
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Thanks for the kind works, @charles1dad - I’ve really tried to be honest and level with folks about what I hear without reviewer-speak. I’d love to report back on the Cubes, but would have to fly to Chicago or NY to demo. I’m a bit concerned about rock/electronica on them per Srajans comments, but have considered purchasing a pair with return policy. Recently, I very much enjoyed the efficient Fynes at a much higher price point. |
Hello Keith,
You are welcome. By chance have you heard any Horning Audio speakers? I heard their Euphrodite model about 6 years ago at CES in the High Water Sound room and liked them quite a bit. Just curious on your take.
Charles |
Heard them at shows only and didn’t leave any real kind of impression. I’ve heard they can shout at higher volumes so may not be for me - I was jamming Daft Punk in the 90s last night :)
I tried to hear the Cessaro Wagner at Jeff’s, but he cancelled due to just getting back from Axpona the week before. I was bummed. |
Keith,
I heard a Cessaro speaker in Jeff's (High Water Sound) room driven by Tron components back around 2013. I don't recall the specific model (Fairly large size and expensive ) but the overall sound was exceptionally good.
When I heard the Horning Euphrodite they were driven by the Electra-Print DRD SET amplifier . Jeff was playing really good quality vinyl jazz at a reasonable sound level. Beautiful and with a very tactile/presence character.
Charles |
@charles1dad I just started participating over at WBT. Agreed with you on the heightened sense of community over there and the loss of it here...
There's also so much more interest in mechanism over there. People may fight and bicker, but they do care about why things sound differently. And much more interest in educating others by sharing experiences and perspective. I find it incredibly refreshing.
Also lots of interest in high efficiency and SETs. Right up your alley! |
Hi Cal,
Not at all surprised you'd appreciate it. Yes, definitely a niche there for SET/low power amplifiers paired with high efficiency speakers. Also you have the more common high power solid state amplifiers/lower efficiency speaker crowd. But what's good is they don't spend time denigrating each other's choices. Very good knowledge and listening experiences shared on WBF.
This is a very good thread (Thankfully) but just not sure why the trolling and disrespectful discourse has become more prevalent on Audiogon. Seems to be worsening.
Charles |
I started a thread called Cube Nenuphar’s and Mini Nenuphar’s on WBF in December 2019. Only one other posted.
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@toetapaudio,
Can’t explain that one specific example, could have been simply lack of awareness at that time. Certainly if you go through current and past threads there’s been ample discussion of similar type speakers and genre. I believe there's more exposure and awareness now.
Charles |
I have a basic question powering the Nenuphars.
My listening space is very odd and not very conducive to audio. The room is a shared space, which is 14’ x 20’, with an open room configuration with high ceiling and the right side extends to another room and kitchen with total area being quiet large. However, I listen nearfield about 8.5’ from the speakers and the speakers are separated by 8’ apart.
I have been using a SIT-3 so far and find it lacks dynamics, specially is the bass region. Recently I got a chance to try a Line Magnetic 805IA (2x48W SET) and in the same room configuration, the Nenuphars came alive. All that was lacking with the SIT-3 was all fulfilled by the LM.
This makes me wonder if Nenuphars can really get along with small powered amps in not-so-small space (even with nearfield listening). I have communicated with Jon (NA Nenuphar distributor) and he thinks SIT-3 should be more than sufficient to power but my experience seems otherwise.
Any thoughts ?
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@debjit_g,
There’s been sufficient evidence posted here and elsewhere that people have had much success with low power amplifiers paired with the Nenuphars. However everyone must rely on their personal experiences and circumstances.
The Line Magnetic 805 SET gets consistent high praise and seems to be an excellent amplifier for many listeners. In your situation given your direct exposure with both amps, the Line Magnetic is the better choice for your room environment.
I believe that in general Jon’s advice is accurate regarding the S.I.T. 3 . You have to decide based on what you’ve heard in your home space. Stephendunn had the S.I.T. 3 but found better results with his Vinnie Rossi integrated amplifier. Individual circumstances dictate outcomes. The OP David gets superb results using a 2a3 SET, so it just depends on numerous factors.
Charles |
@charles1dad thanks for your thoughts.
I forgot to mention earlier that I also tested a Class D IcePower 1200AS2 amp that I had laying around just to double check what I am hearing with the LM and the results are same - this amp also opened up the bass performance tremendously as did the LM over the SIT-3. The IcePower lacks the refinement and highs are rolled off which is expected of this amp but the bass slam, heft and depth was all there. This amp is 1200watts into 4Ohms. Not that the Nenuphars (or any moderately efficient) speaker would remotely need this kind of power but this was an eye opener to say the least.
I was actually planning on getting a Tektron 2A3/50/300B integrated but this whole thing has now put a wrench and now I am not sure if I will land in the same boat as the SIT-3.
As you say (and I also read from various places), that low powered amps has been quiet successful in paring with the Nenuphar but do we know their listening environment and can safely conclude that it works quiet well under all circumstances ? Maybe not. It probably shows that the listening environment might be equally important in choosing the right amp ?
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@ debjit_g,
Absolutely agree that the listening room space and its acoustic character is vitally important and influential. I don’t want to speak for David (He’s eminently capable of doing so himself) . His listening space isn’t small and he has two far more powerful amplifiers in his home. He says without any doubt that the 3.5 watt 2A3 SET mono blocks are the best sounding match. But again, your situation may present key differences. David chime in😊.
Charles |
@charles1dad yes, I had corresponded with David a while back and I vaguely remember he mentioned his room is large and open at the back (instead of front in my case). I am not sure if its still the case though. It would be interesting to get David's opinion.
I think he also mentioned that he has pulled out the speaker into the room quiet a bit. I do the same as I am accustomed to pulling out speakers way into the room with my Acoustic Zen Crescendo MkII and find the Nenuphars has the best balance. On the contrary Jon suggests 12-18" from the front wall but it just doesn’t work for me as the sound becomes way too aggressive. So horses for courses, I guess :-) |
Yep, horses for courses indeed. In the 6 Moons Nenuphar review I believe that Srajan Ebaen put the speakers further from the front wall for improved sound quality.
Charles |
debjit_g
I have a similar room to yours but mine is 15' x 20' with an 9ft ceiling, speakers 8ft apart, that opens to a kitchen on the left, and sit 8.5 ft from the Nenuphars. I have the FW SIT-1 and the Ayon Audio Odin III amps. I had better bass moving the speakers closer to the back wall with 5 degree toe-in. I recently added the Stillpoints Aperatures to the side walls which made the greatest impact in the bass when using the FW SIT-1 (I haven't swapped in the Ayon for a while). The lower damping factor and dual mono amps on the SIT-1 as compared to the SIT-3 might also have an impact. |
The Cube Audio speakers really intrigue me.
That said, I find it interesting that in almost every youtube video demo of the speakers, it seems like the lowther character comes through, a sort of thinness with a peaky upper frequency highlighting vocal sibilance.
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I've spent my recent free time on motorcycle research, demos, etc. Time to catch up on the thread! @ricardoosusa PM me if you would like to connect over the phone. There are a lot of questions in your post and it will be much more efficient to cover them over a phone. So the Nenuphars seems to me like a great option to an all tube system. Being someone who doesn’t like complex systems and much prefer simplicity and short path to signal, no subwoofer its a must for me. The questions I have would be, how good are the high frequency? Describe if possible. How good is bass on a medium room say 14 x 18 ? Is it deep and able to energize it ? At what volumes? Do they play fast and accurately when demanded? Do they present a neutral and balanced sound or lean towards other spectrums? I appreciate if owners report in with valuable insight of these marvels of modern sound reproduction. |
@ricardoosusa Regarding your room size...it's also important to consider the type of room you have. Can you share more specific details beyond the size (14X18)?
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@paullb Paul, did Charles' response address your question? Let us know. |
@debjit_g There are so many factors in play. In other words, guidance and results may (and will) differ and vary. Speaker positioning is a deliberate art form. You will be rewarded immensely by getting it ’right’ with respect to the Nenuphar and your room. In your case, you also have the amplifier pairing in play. The person who helped me set them up described the "interface" as being "eutectic" with the room. [Search for Eutectic Composition and Point]. I found the ’descriptor / concept’ very helpful in moving my understanding forward. My room is 19 by 26 with non-symmetrical aspects. For example, from my seating position, there is a large ’doorway’ in the front right corner and a very large pass through into the kitchen in line from my right shoulder all the way to the right back of the room. Perspective is from the listening position, facing my speakers. For reference, here is a link to more information on my room: https://audio-system-details.blogspot.com/As for the amplifier, I’m beyond pleased with the synergy and performance via my 2A3 amps and their 3.5 watts per channel. I’ve invested in pushing the 2A3 envelope even further with a custom build which is under construction. This new build is focused on maximizing sound quality (not power) so 3 watts or slightly less in terms of max power output. |
Hi @ prof,
Ironically the owners of the Nenuphars and professional reviewers point out it’s the ’lack’ of a "Lowther" shout/signature that draws them to the speakers (Amongst other sonic characteristics). It seems that actual listening experiences may be the vital factor that shapes an impression
Charles |
Agree with David, no Lowther “shout”.
Plenty of bass slam with Bakoon 13R. I have some recordings of percussion groups which clearly demonstrate this.
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charles,
Yes I'm aware of that, which is one reason I'm so curious to hear the Cube Audio speakers. And that is why I found it surprising that the "lowther" signature including the upper mid/lower treble peak on vocal sibilance etc, seemed to be there in numerous youtube demos (where it's not there in many others). Not saying it would sound that way in person well set up, but it seems to come through on the videos.
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Prof,
If you ever have the opportunity to hear the Nenuphars in a well set up system I’d like to read your thoughts. I’ve enjoyed and appreciate your listening impressions posted this site.
Charles |
Great speakers & great post. I exchanged my Nenuphars for a pair of Nenuphars monitors 10” + 1 Cube Audio Sub 12” (placed in the center, facing the listening position). To make things sweeter (thanks to Srajan) I got an Icon passive preamp with an active crossover (40hz high pass for the monitors, full range for the Sub which already has a very effective DSP). It’s a massive upgrade: bass is to die for (deep, elegant, no blooming) but as surprisingly the medium/highs have got a new life (more defined, larger soundstage, extraordinary separation). Srajan says this is due to the much easier job the mains amp has + less heating of the speaker coils. System: Grimm MU1 + Mola Mola Tambaqui + SIT3 / Bakoon amp13r / VR L2iSE with TAK300B
I am reducing my large amplifiers stock and am selling my 1-year old VR L2iSE with dac/phono (9 years warranty left) |
OK I'll bite... "over at WBT" ? What is this forum? |
Referring to whatsbestforum.com the audio forums specifically.
Charles |
@vinpic,
Congratulations!
I haven’t come across Nenuphar owners complaining about the bass reproduction but I’m sure yours is exactly as you describe with the Cube Audio subwoofer. You find the passive Icon preferable to the Vinnie Rossi DHT linestage? That unit gets nothing but universal raves (And well deserved to my understanding).
I’m happy for your successful results.
Charles |
@vinpic,
Do you prefer the Bakoon13R over the S.I.T. 3 driving the Nenuphars?
Charles |
I love what the VR does to the sound (particularly with the TAK300B valves) but now that my Nenuphars + subwoofer setup needs an active crossover to work at its best I tend to use the Icon. Bakoon vs SIT3 ... for me it’s like comparing a great bottle of Barbaresco vs Bourgogne. The Bakoon is faster, fizzier, more joyful. The SIT3 is more studious, lush with a great legato between the notes. I like to alternate depending on mood.
I will receive the Valvet E2se later this week and will revert with impressions
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Vinpic, Just a Heads up concerning Valvet. Some prefer the Original 2 over the SE model. Original is suppose to be sweeter. I probably made a mistake myself ditching the 1st one before listening to it to get the upgrade. The SE will run you around 4K...you can get the regular used for about 1200. Just something to consider and potentially save some dough |
Thanks Riaa. It’s on his way... 🎶
My Sound|Kaos Vox3a are lined up for the Valvet, will also try it on the Nenuphars and revert with thoughts. |
@vinpic,
Thank you for your reply, I now more clearly understand the passive Icon replacing the Vinnie Rossi active DHT Line stage. The analogy comparing the Bakoon13R and S.I.T.3 is very effective and clarifies their different sonic presentations.
Very interested in your listening impression of the incoming Valvet amplifier. I saw elsewhere on this forum you’ve had the Ypsilon integrated amplifier. You have certainly had/heard your share of really fine quality audio equipment. Sound Kaos? Nice! I look forward to reading more of your posts.
Charles |
