Srajan Ebaen’s / Six Moons Nenuphar Mini Basis review is nearing completion. Given the recent discussion, Page 6 may be useful to those using / considering SIT amps. Page 7 offers an insightful comparison between the Mini Basis and the Nenuphar. Page 8 adds a bit more on amps and choices, specifically the tradeoffs between Bakoon and SIT. https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/cubeaudio3/ |
@stephendunn Congratulations on your success with the Vinnie Rossi integrated and resistor solution. |
Bill, good I was able to help to a degree. I hear you on Srajan's style...most lean the way of your assessment. Owning a product he has reviewed, at least for me, has lent itself to much better and higher understanding of his work. Minor correction from the earlier post. Page 6 and Page 7 are relevant! Please know I don't want to torture you with a 6moons reading assignment. : ) Page 7 of Srajan Ebaen’s review of the Nenuphar Mini Basis addresses your question head on. (Link a few posts prior) |
he shared the ideal amplifier specs for the speaker @grannyring Are you comfortable sharing? Thanks. |
@grannyring What follows may come across as apostasizing speaker first thinking....it is not. To begin, I’d like to recognize @stephendunn ’s excellent post. would you say these these speakers are fussy or finicky of the recording quality? The Nenuphars are speakers that "step aside." Simply put, they express "more." The question to ask is whether your system and the components and cabling ahead of your speakers are "fussy" or "finicky?" I’ve found what’s ahead of the Nenuphars to be far more important. In other words, I don’t think about the Nenuphars... which I think is saying a whole lot. In contrast, I have spent a ton of time thinking through my components and critically evaluating them. An aspect which may help answer your concerns (by example) is how incredibly good mainstream popular music sounds. The genre, as you know, is oft derided here for various reasons...however, I’ve been enjoying a wide swath of the genre like never before. Similarly, Stephen and Charles have shared their take on older recordings and how incredibly amazing they can be, notwithstanding their faults. Recordings are far better (especially the ones labelled as not being so) than the critical ’discredit’ heaped upon them. It’s our systems and the way we implement them that (I believe) are responsible to a far greater degree than the recording. does this speaker have good mid bass response avoiding the tendency to sound lean or thin at times? Page 7 of Srajan Ebaen’s review of the Nenuphar Mini Basis addresses your question head on. (Link a few posts prior) I experience mid-bass response to be stellar in tone, timbre, color, texture, impact, naturalness, aliveness, etc. AND variable depending on what is in the chain... recently highlighted and expressed while using two different amps, as well as front end components. Great to hear your Interior Designer spouse approves!!! I believe Cube is now offering custom finishes, by special request. |
@charles1dad Charles, you are most welcome! The review is another gem from Srajan, especially for those who have one or more of the speakers he is discussing. His writing is highly illustrative while being informative.
In addition to what you point out in your post, I found his "aquatic water line" ’line’ valuable. : ) [Page 5]
I wonder how that line has been lowered for the original (non-BASiS) models, for example: By the efforts Robert ( @toetapaudio ) has made in isolating his Nenuphars via Townshend Seismic Podiums, etc.?
Based on photos alone, I haven’t seen evidence that Srajan has applied speaker isolation solutions of his own (for the Nenuphars), other than using the stock spikes and rubber bumpers. Though I realize, understand and appreciate the need to use the stock setup for review purposes. |
@debjit_g You are correct. Eden Sound Extra Large Solid Brass Spikes in the front AND Regular Hemispikes in the rear.
The angle / tilt (front to back) is very close to the original. It resulted in a slight increase in height.
Overall, the improvement in sound quality and performance (on my hardwood suspended flooring) was significant and immediately heard and experienced versus the stock footers. |
@larryi 'Recent Postings' access is down site wide. Admin is working on it. Best way to access and post is via the 'Related To You' portal. |
@doni Don, if you haven't done so, I suggest reaching out to Jon Ver Halen, the US importer for Cube Audio. He may be able to connect you with a client in your area should the client be willing, given the current situation. Refined Audio contact link: https://refinedaudio.com/pages/contact |
@toetapaudio Are you referring to isolation in general or specific to the Cube Audio speakers? If specific to the speakers, can you share more? Thanks. Imo spikes are not beneficial, |
@khragon Congratulations on your excellent results with your First Watt SIT-2
Thanks also for sharing the photo. Very nice.
Question: based on the photo it 'appears' your seating position is farther back...how far? And do your speakers cross-over behind you (they look to be set up with minimal toe-in)? Thanks. |
@douglas_schroeder Your post was educational and helpful to me. Thanks! I'll read that review. |
@stephendunn How are your speakers setup on the Townshend platforms? Stock spikes / similar to @toetapaudio ’s OR some other arrangement? Did setting the speakers on the platforms 'force' changes in positioning / placement? Thank you. |
Srajan Ebaen has wrapped up his ’review' of the Nenuphars with the F10 Neo V2 drivers.
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Quoting from the above:
"The question on the minds of current Nenuphar owners is obvious: should they step up to the V2? Chances are steep. They've carefully cultivated then locked in their ideal balance with the right amplifier and DAC already. If owner acceptance of personal right lives inside a very narrow window, that balance will predictably tip. Now it'll need readdressing; again. That could mean more hardware expenses. I can't predict the appeal of that unless one was still laboring over this balance."
- Srajan Ebaen / 6Moons
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@greenhorn20 What!...you didn't go with Rosso Corsa with the Prancing Horse emblem to enhance the performance synergy with your Solistino? : )
Thanks for sharing the photos of the Nenuphars in the BMW Silver Grey Metallic. They look very sharp as does your room.
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I did not mention the review with any intent to draw you away from your current amp, just for general info @douglas_schroeder I'm open to learning and understood your post as such. Thank you again. My 2A3 amps are a delightful pairing for the Nenuphars (based on my needs / preferences). That doesn't mean I am not open to experimenting with other options, including higher output SET amps. |
@toetapaudio I hear you on spikes, generally speaking. For example, I am using Ingress Audio Engineering's RollerBlocks throughout my system. I will note that moving from the stock spikes and rubber bumpers of the Nenuphar to Eden Sound brass spikes (front) and brass hemi-spikes/spheres (rear) made an easily identifiable and immediate positive difference. @khragon I recommend trying the above since (from your photo) it appears you are using the stock spikes / rubber bumpers. The Eden Sound solution, or equivalent, is a low cost change that (in my case) paid positive dividends. An easy first move to squeeze more performance out of the Nenuphars. [Note: I'm using the Eden Sound spikes 'solution' on Townshend Audio Seismic Platforms] ------------ It’s not obvious but the footprint of the iso device must be large to obtain the required lateral stability for objects with high center of gravity. Sure, you could make the springs stiffer with a smaller footprint but then the device wouldn’t isolate as well. Thanks @geoffkait +1 and noted. |
@khragon Likewise, looking forward to what you end up preferring re. placement etc. in your setup. |
@stephendunn Thanks so much for the detail you shared around your experience and insights with the Townshend Seismic Platforms. I still need to work on optimizing placement / positioning / toe-in / tilt etc.
Your results and findings are very encouraging. |
@highend666 Thanks for sharing and posting the review. |
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@toetapaudio Robert, any updates from Cube Audio that you are able to share?
It would be helpful and nice to see the specifications of the new driver version and comparative data for both drivers (as standalone drivers and as implemented in the Nenuphar speaker cabinet).
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@paullb Mentioning the following in case it is of interest:
Since Srajan Ebaen’s ’review’ makes note of these differences between the two versions of the drivers as implemented in the Nenuphar speaker cabinet...
If I move my listening position back by ~ 6 feet; which results in my standard-position toe-in coming to a point ~ 2 feet in front of me:
the effect (using SB’s terms) is a downward shift in weight, increased "blackness" and a reduction in the "incisiveness in the presence region"...the penalty: is a decrease in sound stage width...
[NOTE: a small couch (my preferred listening position) is likely a contributor as it is now in front of me; this outcome may be simply specific to my room, etc. etc.]
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A reminder. While dusting off the Nenuphars this morning, I noticed one of the four outer screws on the driver 'front assembly' was very loose. They are T-25 screws.
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If not returnable, you could cut the threaded section. If it is an insert, you can remove it and use the adhesive disc (which will cover the insert hole). |
@rixthetrick YES! Grandinote's Massimiliano Magri’s Magnetosolid Tech based electronics and his speakers are really, really good. |
At what point did you feel the speakers were fully broken in? Stephen, copied below [from 10-09-2019 / Page 2 of this thread] are my thoughts on break in for the Nenuphars. Both Richard ( @toetapaudio ) and Jon Ver Halen may, based on their personal exposure and client feedback, find differently. Here is a response I sent to @toetapaudio on my personal experience with break in:
"....Cube, if memory serves me, felt a few hours of runtime would be sufficient.
Jon Ver Halen, the US importer, put it at 40 hours or so. Based on my experience, I peg it at about 150 hours before the Nenuphar start coming into their own. They definitely started sounding better after Jon’s recommendation of 40+ hours. So take 40 as a minimum, minimum...with 150 as my personally recommended minimum. For ’full’ break-in around 500 hours for musical beauty, wonder and engagement. An industry person I respect and who has significant experience tuning analog gear, felt 1000 hours would be needed. I realize ’hours’ of burn-in are a hot topic with folks falling on either side of the divide. I took his feedback and pushed for that 1K mark, after which I consider break in to be complete. However, If I were advising, I’d stick to the 500 hours with folks generally being happy with the results post 200 hours." |
Hard to imagine there is more to come from these wonderful speakers as I reach the 100 hour mark. Stephen, I found there was "more to come..." : ) Let us know what you find. |
I liked the Nenuphar playing at low volume. I liked it less when the volume was cranked up. The Nenuphar speakers, in my system and room, sound wonderful when played loud. I attribute the ability to play them even louder than in the past to improvements I made on the power and power cable side of my system. Treating my room will push these already high volume levels, higher. My reference being: long listening sessions, at higher volumes than normal for me, without the problems that cut a session short. I fully realize the 2A3 amps I'm using have limits in this respect. Having said that, those limits now are far higher (e.g. in volume without distortion / fatigue) than I expected and understand (technically). I've come to learn that the types of music and how I go about listening to that music are 'tells' about my system and it's performance and parameters. One I've noticed recently is that I'm listening to large scale classical music with much greater frequency than I have in the past. This clearly communicates something (important) to me. We all have different references and requirements. It's what makes this hobby so very interesting to me. What follows isn't dictate...it's merely an illustration of my comfort level in what my needs are: Based my experience with Scott Sheaffer's Found-Music 2A3 amps, I (personally, for myself) do not see a need for more power than what a quality 300B SET amp offers to drive the Nenuphars. |
@charles1dad Charles, I have not brought the T+A PA 3100 HV Integrated Amp back in system since the changes to the power supply / conditioner, power cables, etc.
I need to do so, especially since the T+A SDV 3100 HV is well on it's way to be 'broken in' (over 200 hours of playtime on it) AND the other changes are settled (for the most).
I'll make a point to do so and report back. |
@in_shore I'll send a PM now. |
@wig I'm with you, as you know! : )
The Nenuphars are 92dB / 6 Ohm (going by memory here) and the 2A3s avail themselves with distinction. Surprising, because on 'paper' they would not be advised. |
@charles1dad The EML SPs replaced the JJ 40s Scott’s Found-Music 2A3 amps came with (per the seller’s offering). In other words not stock. Buyer would specify if the amps were to be purchased new.
Not even close, in terms of my preference for the EML SP over the JJ 40s. Having said that, my amps / system sounded very good with the JJs. They are a terrific value. |
@wig I did not compare the SP to the MP, so I cannot address directly (in terms of experience within my system).
There are other members who know much more about this than I do. @charles1dad is one of those members. I’d reach out to him as he has compared both directly.
My understanding is that:
- the SP has a much longer lifespan.
- the MP needs proper care in matching / compatibility (electronic reasons) with one’s amp.
- there are more reported "reliability" issues with the MP, however this is mostly due to improper matching.
- the MPs have been described to me as being more "ethereal" "extended" "airy" and generally more "glorious" and "magical" in the mid-range over the SP.
- the SP has been described as more "linear" more "neutral" more "robust/dynamic" more "authoritative" and stronger in low frequency performance (versus the MP).
Both are very good options and one’s system’s needs and preferences should, as always, serve to guide a choice between the two.
I was advised to get both. I haven't procured the Mesh Plate version, as of yet.
[Note: the descriptors used are relative and for purposes of "highlighting" differences] |
@sakso136 Sami, thanks for the wonderfully helpful and informative posts. I learned through your findings from the amps (and tubes) driving your Nenuphars.
I'd love to get an 845 amp in for listen as well.
Let us know your in-depth findings once your AC 845 Genus is in system. What a pairing!!! |
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Reaching out to the Cube Audio Cognoscenti for your advice on Nenuphar placement / positioning and to get a feel for what's been working for each of you?
Mine are pulled out in the room, from both the front and side walls. Listening position is 'fairly' near-field.
I'll be testing other positions and your feedback will help guide me.
Thank you!
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...the SIT-1 poked through the clouds to a performance peak I have not experienced with the Nenuphars--or any other speaker for that matter. Stephen, first let me say how much I love your writing style and reading your prose. It flows so easily and expresses so much. Second, congratulations on acquiring the First Watt SIT-1 monos and their contribution to your system and the resulting peak connection to it via the Nenuphars. |
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Bon, thanks! Cool. Say Hi to Jon from me. Looking forward to hearing your take on the Magus and Nenuphar Mini speakers. Your amps will be a nice pairing! |
@sakso136 M6 is correct.
From Grzegorz: The thread is M6. The spike height is 33 mm and the thread height is 10 mm.
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Stephen...thanks for sharing this. Were your Nenuphars on the stock spikes?
Also, any updates on impressions and overall results since your last major one (over a month ago)? Thanks. |
@abd1 I agree with your assessment of Peter Brueninger’s reviews. You are spot on.
They are mostly very positive. Which, as with so many reviewers, requires the reader to be familiar with a reviewer’s review history and patterns AND to carefully "read between [and past] the lines." In his reviews of the Nenuphar and the Mini Nenuphar, he was clearly in a very different and very special place. Srajan Ebaen was as well. Add Mike Girardi to that list.
Congratulations on your purchase of the Walnut Nenuphar Minis. Can you share photographs of them? I’d love to see how they look in that particular finish. Thanks. |
Robert and Robert, thanks for your responses.
If anyone owns / has had ears on the Nenuphar BASiS, please post.
RY: given the costs (and performance), that makes sense... as well as room sizes in the UK and Europe.
My move has been seriously postponed due to the current pandemic. Probably a year out now. It will be interesting what I end up with, listening room wise...and whether I will be able to try out the BASiS or an alternative future offering from Cube Audio.
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@stephendunn Steven, thanks for the response / answer.
I’m of two minds on this.
First, from your posts regarding what Max shared with your friend...it seems coupling the entire speaker bottom / surface to the Townshend Platforms is recommended. It makes sense (intellectually to me) for a traditional speaker with a fully enclosed bottom. In other words, the greater the coupling, the better.
When I connected with Grzegorz about Height and Tilt for the Nenuphar, my takeaway was that both Angle and Height differentials from a solid floor would lead to differences in low frequency performance. And that the ’stock’ setup was what Cube found best based on the configurations they tried out. He also said that playing with both to meet the owner’s specific needs / preferences was fine.
Of significant concern to me is that solid wood strips (both front and rear) mean that the Nenuphar would then only port via the gap on the left and right sides of each speaker.
Given that (1) the Nenuphar is already raised beyond what Cube "ideally" chose (due to sitting higher on the Townshend platforms) and (2) porting is over an ’uneven’ double surface... I am concerned about further additional deviations and their likely impact on sound quality.
Can you comment more on your experimentation in the area as well as the results from your friend (assuming he/she also have the Nenuphars)?
I’d also love to hear from others active in the thread regarding your thoughts on the pros and cons of doing this?
Thanks! |
Stephen, thanks for the additional details and information.
For clarification, I was referring to the area [open and unrestricted on all sides, in stock configuration/setup] for the "air" / "energy" generated by the driver to exit from the bottom ported transmission line.
In your setup, the energy would only ’exit’ on the left and right sides of the speaker bottom. From what you have heard and shared, you are clearly very happy with the results.
My concerns are around restricting the outflow of air/energy AND limiting it to a left/right dispersion.
I know I will not know, one way or another, unless I try it out.
With my setup:
- the delta in performance upside was far greater with the Eden Sound spikes vs. the stock spikes/rubber bumpers [on my hardwood flooring]
over the,
- the delta from the speakers with the Eden Sound spikes on the Townshend Platforms
Illustrated another way:
Stock on floor <<<< Eden Sound on floor < Eden Sound + Townshend
This may support Max’s point to couple as much of the speaker contact areas to the platform, OR, it may point to the stock spike/bumper setup being subpar and easily improved upon (in my case with aftermarket spikes, front and rear).
I’m open to trying your method, however, it will have to wait until the meniscus tear in my knee is resolved. : )
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I’ve added two photo closeups on my virtual system page, for visual reference. Hopefully the photos help clarify my prior post (above). https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6658I believe the photos (clearly) illustrate the ’open’ area, across the entire speaker bottom. The spikes are from Eden Sound. The platform is the Townshend Audio Seismic Isolation Podium. |
@rwpollock I've had an interest in Valvet for some time and came close to purchasing the A4 instead of my Pass Labs 30.8 to drive my previous speakers.
I just took a quick look at Valvet's website but couldn't find the information I was looking for.
I recommend reaching out to Alfred (the importer/retailer) and Valvet directly to find out the following:
- Feedback (preferably zero; or very low levels)
- Damping Factor (the lower the better)
If the above holds, I can see Valvet being an alternative along the lines of First Watt, which (as you probably know) has proven to be a terrific pairing with the Nenuphars.
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